EPTOn September 26 2013 04:50 onlywonderboy wrote:
That's like, your opinion, man
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2013 04:37 HazMat wrote:
How can anyone ignore this, Req just got smasheddddddddd. I love me some internet debates.
On September 26 2013 04:15 Osmoses wrote:
Alright you clearly feel strongly about this game if you're gonna compare it's writing to Sun Tzu and the Quran so I'm gonna dial back the hate a bit. If it makes you feel better it was mostly for comedic effect.
It's true I used some hyperbole, it tends to get the job done better and faster than writing a 50 page thesis for everything I hate. But I wanna say this: reading alot doesn't necessarily mean you know good writing. It just means you read alot. You probably have a fairly strong grasp on what you like.
So, you went through the whole english curriculum in two months. Begs the question of how much of it you understood, or even remember (that didn't come from the cliffnotes).
And, OK, so you read obscure manga. I've probably never heard of it.
Not sure why that should count against me. I never said all manga is bad, or all anime is bad, or all literature is bad. I said KS is bad. I guess you're saying you have a better grasp on what's good because you're a gourmand? Or maybe a gourmé (sp?)
Well, it's kinda funny, but this argument comes across alot on this site, League vs SC2 as a spectator sport (and I would suggest novels with little or no input qualifies as a spectating-activity, if not a sport). If you need to be an authority on the source material to appreciate it, does that mean it's better than something everyone likes?
-You compare it to a harem anime, saying, and I quote, "Hey guys, let's take the same 6 archetypes that exist in every fucking harem anime, ever, and put them in a dating sim". However, the game never takes the form of a harem at any point, and in fact punishes you for waffling between girls. Also, the standard harem females are tsundere main (doesn't exist), shrinking violet that secretly loves the MC (arguably Hanako, but she doesn't share many traits), forward girl who pushes onto the MC but doesn't really have feelings for him (doesn't exist), and girl that isn't interested outwardly but at the end says she wants to marry him anyway (the only thing close enough is Rin, but that doesn't fit her arc at all)
You have a much better grasp than me on what constitutes the standard harem females. To be entirely truthful, I don't watch alot of anime anymore. I'll concede that, and offer a clarification: I meant (in my own words) the Overly Energetic, the Quiet One, the Serious Student, the Sage, the Oddball, and the Normal. You've seen all of these in most romance anime, and because they are so shallow you immediately know which characters I'm talking about from those single adjectives. Now, I got fed up with the game before I even managed to "get" any of the girls, but I'm guessing most if not every single one of them have a second layer of personality or character trait/backstory revealed to the protagonist as the story progresses into their arc. Because that's just how anime works, and as far as I'm aware this is after all a fanmade pretend-anime.
The reason these characters exist in every romance anime/dating game ever, is because anime is a business, and you get greater ratings if there's a girl for every taste. Some like them Genki and some like them Shy. They are carbon copies of previously successful characters, each with different colored hair so it will be easier to tell them apart, superimposed onto the best backdrop the least money could buy. Every once in a while the Laidback Teacher or the Wacky Otaku comes along to slow the pacing down with useless, predictable dialog.
And you set these characters above or equal to any other in anything published after 1995?
OK.
-You attack the game by insulting the people who poured their time into developing it over 5 years. Not only is that childish and crude, it's also an ad-hominem attack that does nothing but make you look like an ass.
I insulted them after tearing the game apart, I didn't use them as an argument against the game. So, no, I don't think that's an ad-hominem. You call me an ass. That's probably an ad-hominem. Get it together, Nommo.
Either way, it was in jest. I obviously know nothing about these people, beyond the fact that they for some reason spent five years making a bland, pretend-japanese dating sim. Everyone knows the kind of picture that puts in your head, the knee-jerk assumptions of who these people are, what the wear and where they live. They may not be true, but that shouldn't suggest they're not funny.
-You use the term "Visual Novel" as if it's an insult. That's what it is. There was never any smoke and mirrors or fabrication about it being action packed or anything. It's a visual novel, a story written to illustrate romance and the interaction between people that are in their formative years and are dealing with pain both physical and emotional.
Nothing wrong with Visual Novels, they're what studios with small budgets who can't afford to do real manga use to tell their stories. But I was lead to believe this was a game. I've played some dating sims before, and in terms of "gameplay" they were much more fun. You spend your time doing different half-time jobs so you can afford buying girls gifts (the hints for which you have to lure out of their friends), you work out to look better for the athletic girls, you read to impress the brainy types, etc etc.
In KS, you just click the mouse inside the application window. Click. Click. Click. Barely any choices, no interesting ones at least, no customization, and if they weren't making a game, if this is just a visual novel, why give me choices at all, even if they are few and far between? And if they're just looking to tell a story, why are the choices so cryptic? If I just want to see how the story develops with girl A, why does a seemingly unrelated choice send me down the road towards girl B?
-At no point does it ever try to force "handicapped people are people too!" on the reader. If that's how you're interpreting it, then I guess you're just trying to find flaws. Hisao thinks like that during act 1, but the points where disabilities are even mentioned in any route past that are few and far between. In fact, Hisao's disability is the one most talked about because he's such a bitch about it at times, the game almost never focuses on the girls' differences once you get into a route. I don't even they mention Rin's arms except when Hisao is feeding her oranges.
Well, as you said yourself, the first act alone is 3-4 instances of Hisao going "oh they have disabilities, how should I deal with this" and some minor character going "it's not them, it's you, they're just people like you and me". Either way, I didn't make a big deal out of the "disability"-thing until you called me out on it. As far as I'm concerned the fact that the characters in KS are handicapped is completely irrelevant. That's not the problem with this game. The problem with this game is the characters and the dialogue sucks.
I'm not sure which act I quit on, but it doesn't matter. "It gets better" is not an acceptable argument, I see no reason to bore myself to death for an hour before getting to "the good part".
Edit: As I see, you're an MLP fan. I often see the two fangroups bickering due to some kind of stupid 4chan rivalry. I'll be very disappointed if that's the root cause of this.
Haven't seen this rivalry myself. I like MLP because the concept of cutesy fantasy ponies with strong neurotic disorders is hilarious.
It just sounds like you really want to insult this thing for one reason or another. You're just leveling broad (and somewhat incorrect) criticisms without talking about anything in particular.
Well, like I said, why write a thesis nitpicking on particulars on something that's clearly not worth my time? If the foundation is rotten, why bother commenting on the interior?
Oh fuck, you made me write a thesis!
On September 26 2013 01:57 Requizen wrote:
No redeeming factors? Done to death? That's the most hyperbolic shit I've ever seen in my life. I read a lot. I used to get in trouble in English class for finishing the curriculum in the first two months. I chewed through Tolkein's extended lore when I was in grade school. I picked up Dante, Sun Tzu, and the Quran because I was bored. I've watched romance animes, read fantasy and fiction, read manga you've never even heard of.
So when I say that, as an avid reader, the story didn't feel trite or rehashed, the dialogue for 90% of the game felt fluid, and the characters had more depth than nearly every novel I've read written past the year 1995, I can't imagine a scenario in which you could prove otherwise.
No redeeming factors? Done to death? That's the most hyperbolic shit I've ever seen in my life. I read a lot. I used to get in trouble in English class for finishing the curriculum in the first two months. I chewed through Tolkein's extended lore when I was in grade school. I picked up Dante, Sun Tzu, and the Quran because I was bored. I've watched romance animes, read fantasy and fiction, read manga you've never even heard of.
So when I say that, as an avid reader, the story didn't feel trite or rehashed, the dialogue for 90% of the game felt fluid, and the characters had more depth than nearly every novel I've read written past the year 1995, I can't imagine a scenario in which you could prove otherwise.
Alright you clearly feel strongly about this game if you're gonna compare it's writing to Sun Tzu and the Quran so I'm gonna dial back the hate a bit. If it makes you feel better it was mostly for comedic effect.
It's true I used some hyperbole, it tends to get the job done better and faster than writing a 50 page thesis for everything I hate. But I wanna say this: reading alot doesn't necessarily mean you know good writing. It just means you read alot. You probably have a fairly strong grasp on what you like.
So, you went through the whole english curriculum in two months. Begs the question of how much of it you understood, or even remember (that didn't come from the cliffnotes).
And, OK, so you read obscure manga. I've probably never heard of it.
Not sure why that should count against me. I never said all manga is bad, or all anime is bad, or all literature is bad. I said KS is bad. I guess you're saying you have a better grasp on what's good because you're a gourmand? Or maybe a gourmé (sp?)Well, it's kinda funny, but this argument comes across alot on this site, League vs SC2 as a spectator sport (and I would suggest novels with little or no input qualifies as a spectating-activity, if not a sport). If you need to be an authority on the source material to appreciate it, does that mean it's better than something everyone likes?
-You compare it to a harem anime, saying, and I quote, "Hey guys, let's take the same 6 archetypes that exist in every fucking harem anime, ever, and put them in a dating sim". However, the game never takes the form of a harem at any point, and in fact punishes you for waffling between girls. Also, the standard harem females are tsundere main (doesn't exist), shrinking violet that secretly loves the MC (arguably Hanako, but she doesn't share many traits), forward girl who pushes onto the MC but doesn't really have feelings for him (doesn't exist), and girl that isn't interested outwardly but at the end says she wants to marry him anyway (the only thing close enough is Rin, but that doesn't fit her arc at all)
You have a much better grasp than me on what constitutes the standard harem females. To be entirely truthful, I don't watch alot of anime anymore. I'll concede that, and offer a clarification: I meant (in my own words) the Overly Energetic, the Quiet One, the Serious Student, the Sage, the Oddball, and the Normal. You've seen all of these in most romance anime, and because they are so shallow you immediately know which characters I'm talking about from those single adjectives. Now, I got fed up with the game before I even managed to "get" any of the girls, but I'm guessing most if not every single one of them have a second layer of personality or character trait/backstory revealed to the protagonist as the story progresses into their arc. Because that's just how anime works, and as far as I'm aware this is after all a fanmade pretend-anime.
The reason these characters exist in every romance anime/dating game ever, is because anime is a business, and you get greater ratings if there's a girl for every taste. Some like them Genki and some like them Shy. They are carbon copies of previously successful characters, each with different colored hair so it will be easier to tell them apart, superimposed onto the best backdrop the least money could buy. Every once in a while the Laidback Teacher or the Wacky Otaku comes along to slow the pacing down with useless, predictable dialog.
And you set these characters above or equal to any other in anything published after 1995?
OK.
-You attack the game by insulting the people who poured their time into developing it over 5 years. Not only is that childish and crude, it's also an ad-hominem attack that does nothing but make you look like an ass.
I insulted them after tearing the game apart, I didn't use them as an argument against the game. So, no, I don't think that's an ad-hominem. You call me an ass. That's probably an ad-hominem. Get it together, Nommo.
Either way, it was in jest. I obviously know nothing about these people, beyond the fact that they for some reason spent five years making a bland, pretend-japanese dating sim. Everyone knows the kind of picture that puts in your head, the knee-jerk assumptions of who these people are, what the wear and where they live. They may not be true, but that shouldn't suggest they're not funny.
-You use the term "Visual Novel" as if it's an insult. That's what it is. There was never any smoke and mirrors or fabrication about it being action packed or anything. It's a visual novel, a story written to illustrate romance and the interaction between people that are in their formative years and are dealing with pain both physical and emotional.
Nothing wrong with Visual Novels, they're what studios with small budgets who can't afford to do real manga use to tell their stories. But I was lead to believe this was a game. I've played some dating sims before, and in terms of "gameplay" they were much more fun. You spend your time doing different half-time jobs so you can afford buying girls gifts (the hints for which you have to lure out of their friends), you work out to look better for the athletic girls, you read to impress the brainy types, etc etc.
In KS, you just click the mouse inside the application window. Click. Click. Click. Barely any choices, no interesting ones at least, no customization, and if they weren't making a game, if this is just a visual novel, why give me choices at all, even if they are few and far between? And if they're just looking to tell a story, why are the choices so cryptic? If I just want to see how the story develops with girl A, why does a seemingly unrelated choice send me down the road towards girl B?
-At no point does it ever try to force "handicapped people are people too!" on the reader. If that's how you're interpreting it, then I guess you're just trying to find flaws. Hisao thinks like that during act 1, but the points where disabilities are even mentioned in any route past that are few and far between. In fact, Hisao's disability is the one most talked about because he's such a bitch about it at times, the game almost never focuses on the girls' differences once you get into a route. I don't even they mention Rin's arms except when Hisao is feeding her oranges.
Well, as you said yourself, the first act alone is 3-4 instances of Hisao going "oh they have disabilities, how should I deal with this" and some minor character going "it's not them, it's you, they're just people like you and me". Either way, I didn't make a big deal out of the "disability"-thing until you called me out on it. As far as I'm concerned the fact that the characters in KS are handicapped is completely irrelevant. That's not the problem with this game. The problem with this game is the characters and the dialogue sucks.
I'm not sure which act I quit on, but it doesn't matter. "It gets better" is not an acceptable argument, I see no reason to bore myself to death for an hour before getting to "the good part".
Edit: As I see, you're an MLP fan. I often see the two fangroups bickering due to some kind of stupid 4chan rivalry. I'll be very disappointed if that's the root cause of this.
Haven't seen this rivalry myself. I like MLP because the concept of cutesy fantasy ponies with strong neurotic disorders is hilarious.
It just sounds like you really want to insult this thing for one reason or another. You're just leveling broad (and somewhat incorrect) criticisms without talking about anything in particular.
Well, like I said, why write a thesis nitpicking on particulars on something that's clearly not worth my time? If the foundation is rotten, why bother commenting on the interior?
Oh fuck, you made me write a thesis!
How can anyone ignore this, Req just got smasheddddddddd. I love me some internet debates.
That's like, your opinion, man
Will Req prove me wrong?
I mean when I read Req's first reply I couldn't help but think "okay you read books in high school..." and then Osmoses just put that into such eloquent words I had to quote it.
GOGO MORE REPLIES.
