On December 05 2023 15:34 Philippe wrote: Hopefully the American qualifier does not turn into a Korean vs EU mud Fest. Shades of DreamHack Last Chance 2021-2022 there
damn, that's EXACTLY what I'm hoping for
I've wanted a TRUE last chance qualifier ever since DH miscalculated the points system headed into their old "Last Chance" event, and now we actually have it.
On December 05 2023 15:34 Philippe wrote: Hopefully the American qualifier does not turn into a Korean vs EU mud Fest. Shades of DreamHack Last Chance 2021-2022 there
That is exactly what will happen I d be suprised if even 2 of the 4 spots go to NA players
Tough brackets tomorrow, particularly Classic, Byun, Ragnarok, DRG. Crazy that at least 1 and likely 2 of those 4 will have to qualify through other regions.
I think given the recent history with double-elim in SC2, I wouldn't be shocked if the final list of IEM Katowice players is just the entire Aligulac top 24 (maybe minus a single player or two who are separated by like 40 points).
On December 06 2023 07:20 Waxangel wrote: I think given the recent history with double-elim in SC2, I wouldn't be shocked if the final list of IEM Katowice players is just the entire Aligulac top 24 (maybe minus a single player or two who are separated by like 40 points).
No need to look further than the AfreecaTV Champions Cup II to have a stark reminder of it. Anybody not being close to that level might dream but that's about. For example, sad as it is even Scarlett or Firefly could be left out of it.
About your comment about how the previous Last Chance events were inadequate, sort of. These were mostly equal to Season Finals without preceding regionals. For those who desperately needed points for ro36 or ro24 prospects, this wasn't cutting it. There, no points but direct WC slots might make it different.
On December 06 2023 07:20 Waxangel wrote: I think given the recent history with double-elim in SC2, I wouldn't be shocked if the final list of IEM Katowice players is just the entire Aligulac top 24 (maybe minus a single player or two who are separated by like 40 points).
You won't believe the current rank of Reynor. Checking out aligulac might SHOCK you!
Its good that 2 more CN players making it this time, and we have big name players left that are not yet qualified including Gumiho, Classic and Bunny. Not sure if they have a shot qualify through EU server, but the NA one will be their target.
Really cool to see 2 chinese players make it, especially pretty "fresh" faces to the global scene
But dang Creator lost to Firefly again... And Stats beating sOs to make it out damn. Poor Ty too. I wonder why it's taking a while for him to get back to anywhere close to where he was. I feel like if Maru went to the military and came back he wouldn't be so much worse. But i get it, the game is hard. Seems like Stats might be catching back up though.
Hoping Creator can make it through somehow in the AM or EU qualifiers lol
sOs beating Showtime and GuMiho and then falling flat against Firefly and Stats is peak sOs somehow...
And seeing Fireflys and Cyans performance...seems like WTL is really helping some players to take the next step. Constantly playing against the best and having an "important" match every week seems to be good practice. Makes you wonder if ShowTime and HeroMarine aren't missing out.
On December 06 2023 22:42 Balnazza wrote: sOs beating Showtime and GuMiho and then falling flat against Firefly and Stats is peak sOs somehow...
YEAH, like Firefly isn't bad at all (quite good from his online showings i saw recently), but it's funny how he beat 2 mainstays somehow but then just lost. Inconsistent as always
Really hoping he finds some luck soon though so he doesn't get discouraged and quit or something
On December 06 2023 23:41 tigera6 wrote: Bunny Classic Creator Gumiho Nightmare already signed up for the EU qualifier, so it will be interesting to see how its goes.
Wow, Korean top8s dropping out. Interesting. Coming from the Open side is pretty grueling -- any of the top25 Europeans could honestly upset any of these guys in a single bo3, so... it will be very tough for them.
Firefly isn't particularly surprising considering both some of his online results lately and the PvP bracket he got but Cyan beating DRG/Ryung/TY is really shocking to me. Merely making it to the main event of IEM is already probably a career best result for him in any event right?
On December 07 2023 12:57 JJH777 wrote: Firefly isn't particularly surprising considering both some of his online results lately and the PvP bracket he got but Cyan beating DRG/Ryung/TY is really shocking to me. Merely making it to the main event of IEM is already probably a career best result for him in any event right?
Cyan really has the time of his life right now, since he apparently will also participate in ESL Winter (Firefly couldn't make it)
On December 06 2023 23:41 tigera6 wrote: Bunny Classic Creator Gumiho Nightmare already signed up for the EU qualifier, so it will be interesting to see how its goes.
Wow, Korean top8s dropping out. Interesting. Coming from the Open side is pretty grueling -- any of the top25 Europeans could honestly upset any of these guys in a single bo3, so... it will be very tough for them.
And just like that, Jieshi takes down Nightmare and Creator. Wowza. Korean Protosses always find a way to tilt me. Gerald takes down DRG. Vanya pushing Bunny to the limit.
Not feeling hopeful he'll make it now with only AM qualifiers left :<
I'm sure the ping difference is a pretty significant disadvantage... so it's not too surprising KR players are struggling i guess
Congrats to Jieshi, i was surprised to see Gerald beating DRG, Wayne almost beating Bunny, etc. Seems like the skill gap between foreigners and KR is really closing in. And not just the foreigner vs KR aspect, but like the gap between high GM and pro seems to be closing too as the game gets more figured out
If Scarlett wants to qualify, despite the ping disadvantage this is the perfect upper bracket.
But if she has to go through LB, not betting much on her because unlikely she gets through the American qualifier given everybody will play there on a ok ping.
On December 08 2023 15:59 Philippe wrote: If Scarlett wants to qualify, despite the ping disadvantage this is the perfect upper bracket.
But if she has to go through LB, not betting much on her because unlikely she gets through the American qualifier given everybody will play there on a ok ping.
On December 08 2023 15:59 Philippe wrote: If Scarlett wants to qualify, despite the ping disadvantage this is the perfect upper bracket.
But if she has to go through LB, not betting much on her because unlikely she gets through the American qualifier given everybody will play there on a ok ping.
So does Kelazhur.
One of them won't qualify anyway. The only unknown is who. Picked up Scarlett because she has a higher ceiling than Kelazhur, but not by a mile either.
When Kelazhur left Liquid, I honestly thought he kinda lost his drive and just wanted to slide into retirement. Boy was I wrong, dude really delivers since then
(Also a GSL winner losing three Bo5s against foreigners in a row must be some kind of record, right?)
Poor Classic, that's going to sting especially if he doesn't qualify through NA. It's now confirmed that at least a couple top Koreans will be missing Katowice. I think the NA server should have had a few more slots. Maybe take 2 from EU and 1 from KR. I highly doubt Classic loses back to back bo5 matches to Skillous and Spirit on NA.
On December 09 2023 09:58 JJH777 wrote: Poor Classic, that's going to sting especially if he doesn't qualify through NA. It's now confirmed that at least a couple top Koreans will be missing Katowice. I think the NA server should have had a few more slots. Maybe take 2 from EU and 1 from KR. I highly doubt Classic loses back to back bo5 matches to Skillous and Spirit on NA.
So you want EU to have the least Qualifying spots instead of NA because Kr Players have a better Ping to NA? Take.
On December 09 2023 09:58 JJH777 wrote: Poor Classic, that's going to sting especially if he doesn't qualify through NA. It's now confirmed that at least a couple top Koreans will be missing Katowice. I think the NA server should have had a few more slots. Maybe take 2 from EU and 1 from KR. I highly doubt Classic loses back to back bo5 matches to Skillous and Spirit on NA.
So you want EU to have the least Qualifying spots instead of NA because Kr Players have a better Ping to NA? Take.
It's not like NA players will take many slots anyway ? The usual problem of the server nature (not region-locked, luckily) of it
On December 09 2023 09:58 JJH777 wrote: Poor Classic, that's going to sting especially if he doesn't qualify through NA. It's now confirmed that at least a couple top Koreans will be missing Katowice. I think the NA server should have had a few more slots. Maybe take 2 from EU and 1 from KR. I highly doubt Classic loses back to back bo5 matches to Skillous and Spirit on NA.
So you want EU to have the least Qualifying spots instead of NA because Kr Players have a better Ping to NA? Take.
It's not like NA players will take many slots anyway ?
On December 09 2023 09:58 JJH777 wrote: Poor Classic, that's going to sting especially if he doesn't qualify through NA. It's now confirmed that at least a couple top Koreans will be missing Katowice. I think the NA server should have had a few more slots. Maybe take 2 from EU and 1 from KR. I highly doubt Classic loses back to back bo5 matches to Skillous and Spirit on NA.
So you want EU to have the least Qualifying spots instead of NA because Kr Players have a better Ping to NA? Take.
It's not like NA players will take many slots anyway ?
Does that Change a Thing about what i Said?
Not at all, it's more about a side response to JJH777 there.
On December 09 2023 09:58 JJH777 wrote: Poor Classic, that's going to sting especially if he doesn't qualify through NA. It's now confirmed that at least a couple top Koreans will be missing Katowice. I think the NA server should have had a few more slots. Maybe take 2 from EU and 1 from KR. I highly doubt Classic loses back to back bo5 matches to Skillous and Spirit on NA.
So you want EU to have the least Qualifying spots instead of NA because Kr Players have a better Ping to NA? Take.
In this scenario the NA qualifier would just be a last chance global qualifier moreso than an actual NA one. If EU players are better than Koreans they would take those slots especially since for many EU players the typical alternating server rules actually gives them a ping advantage.
It's also crazy to me that the Atlanta winner isn't a guaranteed Kato slot... Imagine if Classic or Gumiho somehow win Atlanta and aren't at Kato. It probably won't happen but if it does that'd be a travesty.
On December 09 2023 10:17 JJH777 wrote: It's also crazy to me that the Atlanta winner isn't a guaranteed Kato slot... Imagine if Classic or Gumiho somehow win Atlanta and aren't at Kato. It probably won't happen but if it does that'd be a travesty.
In that case Serral would have gotten an invite from Summer aswell, which means another slot for the European Qualifier and then you would have complained even more why EU gets so many slots... It could also lead to a problem in which an already qualified player (which is quite likely) wins Winter and then you would need to fit in a LastChance-qualifier. There is somewhat of a "player break" in the first week of January, then there is Master Coliseum 7 and from there it is only two weeks until Katowice. So you can basically scratch anyone who needs a visa and make it an EU-only qualifier or just randomly award the last slot according to points or something
On December 09 2023 10:17 JJH777 wrote: It's also crazy to me that the Atlanta winner isn't a guaranteed Kato slot... Imagine if Classic or Gumiho somehow win Atlanta and aren't at Kato. It probably won't happen but if it does that'd be a travesty.
In that case Serral would have gotten an invite from Summer aswell, which means another slot for the European Qualifier and then you would have complained even more why EU gets so many slots... It could also lead to a problem in which an already qualified player (which is quite likely) wins Winter and then you would need to fit in a LastChance-qualifier. There is somewhat of a "player break" in the first week of January, then there is Master Coliseum 7 and from there it is only two weeks until Katowice. So you can basically scratch anyone who needs a visa and make it an EU-only qualifier or just randomly award the last slot according to points or something
The last slot could be points or highest placing player at Atlanta that is not already qualified.
I just don't see why EU should have so many near guaranteed slots. Especially for Kato as that has historically been the one global event that actually allows near full KR participation. Make the qualifiers global on NA and if EU really deserves that many slots they will win them. Maybe I'm still underestimating the mid tier of EU and they win anyways but give them the chance to prove it. I just think Kato is most likely less interesting with Skillous/Spirit than Gumiho/Classic. We know Skillous and Spirit are in 90% likelihood not going to upset any top 5 players. Gumiho and Classic can and have beat anyone.
So Classic can upset a Top 5 player at Kato, but he can't win three Bo5s against Europeans with a slight ping disadvantage? Maybe accomplish Step 1 before you dream about Step 2? If Gumiho and Classic bomb out of three qualifiers and also not win atleast one of three GSLs...maybe they just don't deserve to be in Katowice?
Katowice was the gloal event with "near full KR participation" because koreans used to be so much above the rest that they could qualify in all qualifiers and make it a korean-only event. Now they are apparently not good enough to do that anymore and you suddenly want to change the setup? Which btw was the same "back in the day", America always had the lowest amount of seeds and Asia/EU had equal amounts.
On December 09 2023 13:30 Balnazza wrote: So Classic can upset a Top 5 player at Kato, but he can't win three Bo5s against Europeans with a slight ping disadvantage? Maybe accomplish Step 1 before you dream about Step 2? If Gumiho and Classic bomb out of three qualifiers and also not win atleast one of three GSLs...maybe they just don't deserve to be in Katowice?
Katowice was the gloal event with "near full KR participation" because koreans used to be so much above the rest that they could qualify in all qualifiers and make it a korean-only event. Now they are apparently not good enough to do that anymore and you suddenly want to change the setup? Which btw was the same "back in the day", America always had the lowest amount of seeds and Asia/EU had equal amounts.
Slight ping disadvantage? It's 30-50 ping vs 250 ping plus the middle of the night.
Your second paragraph is just straight up false. 2018-2020 Kato was: 5 KR server qualifier slots, 3 NA server qualifier spots, 3 EU qualifier server spots, Blizzcon champion invite, and 12 open bracket spots. Nothing like what you're describing.
2021 was 10 KR slots, 5 EU slots, 4 slots for other regions, 1 combined standing spot, and 4 open bracket spots.
It wasn't until 2022 that they started giving EU almost equal slots to KR but even then it wasn't as bad due to the open bracket awarding 4 slots. They basically removed the open bracket (an understandable cost cutting measure) but instead of awarding those slots to some type of global qualifier they put 3/4 of them in the EU qualifier and 1 to KR/CN.
And calling classic upsetting a top 5 player a dream when he beat Serral and Reynor back to back at a 400k event 3 months ago is just silly.
Discussing ad vitam eternam about the slot allocation should be its own separate topic, instead of getting inserted into a topic which should be about results ? Same comment about the effects of the ping.
One of my small issue with this IEM qualifier system is how EU/NA/Asia got extra slots due to repeated champs, but KR got no extra slot for Maru winning GSL S1 and S2, which should go to Asia/KR. I understand that the ESL system only have 2 seasons and GSL have 3 season, but what have they done if GSL got 3 champs instead? Taking a qualifying slot away from the KR/Asia region? And there is the whole thing about the EPT points are pretty much worthless until now, and we still have no clue how they would impact the Global Final participation next year.
As for the result, Classic kinda shot himself in the foot a couple of times against Spirit, but hes still looking very good, he should be able to qualify through AM server, but the Open bracket will be scary AF.
On December 09 2023 13:30 Balnazza wrote: So Classic can upset a Top 5 player at Kato, but he can't win three Bo5s against Europeans with a slight ping disadvantage? Maybe accomplish Step 1 before you dream about Step 2? If Gumiho and Classic bomb out of three qualifiers and also not win atleast one of three GSLs...maybe they just don't deserve to be in Katowice?
Katowice was the gloal event with "near full KR participation" because koreans used to be so much above the rest that they could qualify in all qualifiers and make it a korean-only event. Now they are apparently not good enough to do that anymore and you suddenly want to change the setup? Which btw was the same "back in the day", America always had the lowest amount of seeds and Asia/EU had equal amounts.
Slight ping disadvantage? It's 30-50 ping vs 250 ping plus the middle of the night.
Your second paragraph is just straight up false. 2018-2020 Kato was: 5 KR server qualifier slots, 3 NA server qualifier spots, 3 EU qualifier server spots, Blizzcon champion invite, and 12 open bracket spots. Nothing like what you're describing.
2021 was 10 KR slots, 5 EU slots, 4 slots for other regions, 1 combined standing spot, and 4 open bracket spots.
It wasn't until 2022 that they started giving EU almost equal slots to KR but even then it wasn't as bad due to the open bracket awarding 4 slots. They basically removed the open bracket (an understandable cost cutting measure) but instead of awarding those slots to some type of global qualifier they put 3/4 of them in the EU qualifier and 1 to KR/CN.
And calling classic upsetting a top 5 player a dream when he beat Serral and Reynor back to back at a 400k event 3 months ago is just silly.
I'm no expert on ping, so I will just take your word for it. That is the crux with online play...but if that is a problem for you, don't try to qualify through a different server qualifier I guess. Also...aren't servers alternating between the two? Wouldn't the score reflect that aswell if this is the only reason he lost?
I randomly picked Katowice 2015 for my argument, in which it was indeed an equal split. For 2018-20 you are right, though that kind of gets counter-balanced with the "open bracket" being naturally more EU-friendly (not that it helped...). 2021 was probably still somewhat adapted from WCS which had an equal split between Korea and the rest of the world. But it was still okay-ish. Such a korea-heavy split today however would be utterly ridiculous by now.
Okay, "dream" might have been a wrong choice of word - though to be fair, Gamers8 was three month ago. Classic has been mostly mediocre since then. But honestly: How is that a measurement that someone has to be in the tournament (and lets be real: That is your entire point. All top koreans *have* to be present and the system needs to be in a way that they can and will). Yes, maybe Classic can upset one of the big dogs. Or maybe he will be runover 3-0 by Serral like in ESL Summer. Instead of thinking about that, why not take the easy metric? Classic (and Gumiho) have three chances to qualify for the event. If they don't get through while Spirit does it in one attempt...maybe that's just life?
On December 09 2023 14:30 tigera6 wrote: One of my small issue with this IEM qualifier system is how EU/NA/Asia got extra slots due to repeated champs, but KR got no extra slot for Maru winning GSL S1 and S2, which should go to Asia/KR. I understand that the ESL system only have 2 seasons and GSL have 3 season, but what have they done if GSL got 3 champs instead? Taking a qualifying slot away from the KR/Asia region? And there is the whole thing about the EPT points are pretty much worthless until now, and we still have no clue how they would impact the Global Final participation next year.
As for the result, Classic kinda shot himself in the foot a couple of times against Spirit, but hes still looking very good, he should be able to qualify through AM server, but the Open bracket will be scary AF.
It isn't written out, but considering that Asia/Korea has one slot more than EU naturally I just assume that is the third GSL-Slot. I agree however that the points-situations is really unnerving...
You know maybe Classic should have Just Not lost to DRG and shin in the KR qualifiers, KR already got the highest amount of Slots for this Event, so i dont See the issue tbh.
People complaining about lack of slots for Koreans, meanwhile Firely and Cyan Manager to qualify thrue the Lorean/ Asian qualifier. Korea as a region lost so much depth compared to Europa and China, it s honestly sad to watch. Just look at wtl where a squat of houshold names from the past (Afreeca Freecs) embaresses themselves on a weekly basis
I never said KR should straight up get more slots. I said there should be more slots in a global qualifier on NA which both EU and KR can compete for. Most EU players can lose to DRG and Shin on equal ping as well. Guess who got eliminated from the last IEM due primarily to those exact two players?
The American closed qualifier starts at 1am CET, 9am KST. But I guess then a qualifier "in the middle of the night" is not a bad thing anymore? Maybe the qualifiers should just be region locked, then we wouldn't have these troubles...
EU fans are really anti competition apparently. I'm not suggesting giving KR more slots but having a fair global qualifier on NA server. If the mid tier of EU is actually good enough to have this many players at Kato they would just win anyways. All this does is make a more exciting/competitive qualifier instead of one where KR players are playing with near 300 ping.
You literally advocated to reduce EUs slots by another two for your little "global last chance NA qualifier". Which then I suppose would need to be at a time which is convenient for koreans of course, can't have them play tired, right?
Maybe the mid-tier koreans who may or may not miss out this event should just play better instead of making it more complicated for Europeans?
I mean Cyan, Firefly and Stats made it through the KR qualifier, it's not like the Korean had to face insurmountable challenges in their qualifier. There's little sign that the rest of the Korean would really have done better on the NA server.
On December 10 2023 10:14 Nakajin wrote: I mean Cyan, Firefly and Stats made it through the KR qualifier, it's not like the Korean had to face insurmountable challenges in their qualifier. There's little sign that the rest of the Korean would really have done better on the NA server.
Well, all 4 who qualified into the Close Qualifier today are KRs, and KRs didnt lose a single match against EU in the Open stage. And Cyan/Firefly are closer to Oliveira level imo than the rest of CN players, making them no pushovers even against mid-tier KRs.
And Lambo missing IEM meaning Reynor will probably get coached by him and play like a beast there.
I don't want to draw any HUGE conclusions because there was a decent amount of BO3 and bracket luck involved, but I think it goes to show there's more parity in the top 15~30 range than I expected.
On December 11 2023 13:53 Waxangel wrote: I don't want to draw any HUGE conclusions because there was a decent amount of BO3 and bracket luck involved, but I think it goes to show there's more parity in the top 15~30 range than I expected.
I want to agree but I instinctively question timezone and latency, but still... amazing results for the Non-KR folks.
On December 11 2023 13:53 Waxangel wrote: I don't want to draw any HUGE conclusions because there was a decent amount of BO3 and bracket luck involved, but I think it goes to show there's more parity in the top 15~30 range than I expected.
EPT
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/EPT/esm734.jpg)
Firefly
Take.
