Four groups of six players played out in Round-Robin format.
All matches are Bo3. • First place in each group advances directly to the Quarterfinals. • Second and third place in each group advance to the Round of 12.
Ties are broken in the following order: • Overall map difference • Overall number of map wins • Match wins amassed between the tied participants ('Mini-League') • Map difference between the tied participants ('Mini-League') • Number of map wins between the tied participants ('Mini-League') • Tie breaker matches • Coin toss
Playoffs • 12-player single-elimination bracket • Round of 12, Quarterfinals, and Semifinals matches are Bo5. • Finals are Bo7.
On February 11 2023 18:57 Waxangel wrote: Elazer downgraded to eliminated overnight
I guess even if he win 2-0 and if DRG wins 2-1, they're all 4 at 2-3 and -1 mapscore. Then the resulting minigroup has Serral dead last, but Elazer also only has 1 win in that minigroup, whereas both DRG and Solar have 2 wins there, so yeah, best he can hope for is 4th spot (if Solar wins and Elazer beats Serral). Shame. Having everybody need a win to qualify was an amazing situation.
Clem should learn a bit from Heromarine how to improve TvT matchup even though his mech strategy against Zerg player seems fruitful. It seems like he may not advance if lose to Cure.
On February 11 2023 20:16 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Dark just getting rekt in game 1 vs Neeb. Rag cutting it close but holds in the end. Clem kinda needs this but Cure shutting him down in Game 1.
It was just what TY predicted last days. The impeding military service has clouded his mind and focus.
On February 11 2023 20:16 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Dark just getting rekt in game 1 vs Neeb. Rag cutting it close but holds in the end. Clem kinda needs this but Cure shutting him down in Game 1.
It was just what TY predicted last days. The impeding military service has clouded his mind and focus.
Eh, it's one series. That he is playing terribly - but still.
On February 11 2023 20:25 Die4Ever wrote: I think Dark screwed up by sending in the zerglings before the spine crawlers were in range to hit anything
IMO he should have just pulled out of the allin entirely once it was clear Neeb wasn't contesting the lowground. But yeah, if he was going to go for it, he needed to use the spines.
On February 11 2023 20:30 Vindicare605 wrote: Group is decided. Doesn't matter who wins this now, TIME can only at the worst tie with Clem and he has the tiebreaker. He's safe at third place.
Clem needed to win at least one game to have a chance and he didn't.
no, this is now the 1st place match due to the other results
On February 11 2023 20:27 Charoisaur wrote: Neeb is the first player to take a series from one of the top 4 Zergs at a world championship since 2021
I assume you meant non-zerg player, but is this actually true?
yeah edited it
aren't you just saying "it didn't happen in 2022, and it took till day 3 of group stage in 2023"? in which case i don't think its that special, really. like yeah, '22 was odd, but that's about it
On February 11 2023 20:27 Charoisaur wrote: Neeb is the first non-Zerg player to take a series from one of the top 4 Zergs at a world championship since 2021
I certainly remember Zerg civil war in 2022, but didn't know it extended into group stages. Yeah, IEM 2022 was more lopsided than Zergcon 2019.
On February 11 2023 20:38 Schelim wrote: Group C is so tight, Special could advance in first place or be eliminated depending on how it turns out. Kinda crazy.
I think Special is safe, at worst he's gonna be 2-3 and the two 2-2 player are playing against each others.
On February 11 2023 20:38 Schelim wrote: Group C is so tight, Special could advance in first place or be eliminated depending on how it turns out. Kinda crazy.
I think Special is safe, at worst he's gonna be 3-2 and the two 2-2 player are playing against each others.
On February 11 2023 20:38 Schelim wrote: Group C is so tight, Special could advance in first place or be eliminated depending on how it turns out. Kinda crazy.
I think Special is safe, at worst he's gonna be 3-2 and the two 2-2 player are playing against each others.
In which situation would Creator not advance? Even if he loses 0-2, he would be 3-2 overall with +2 map score, which is better than Spirit could go with 3-2 overall and +1, right?
On February 11 2023 20:52 opterown wrote: In which situation would Creator not advance? Even if he loses 0-2, he would be 3-2 overall with +2 map score, which is better than Spirit could go with 3-2 overall and +1, right?
On February 11 2023 20:38 Schelim wrote: Group C is so tight, Special could advance in first place or be eliminated depending on how it turns out. Kinda crazy.
I think Special is safe, at worst he's gonna be 3-2 and the two 2-2 player are playing against each others.
He can still Go Out on mapscore i think.
even for hero is a chance to go out
Am I crazy? Neither the loser of Solar/Serral or DRG and Elazer can get to three win, so they can't kick herO and Special out. Did I miss somethig?
On February 11 2023 20:38 Schelim wrote: Group C is so tight, Special could advance in first place or be eliminated depending on how it turns out. Kinda crazy.
I think Special is safe, at worst he's gonna be 3-2 and the two 2-2 player are playing against each others.
He can still Go Out on mapscore i think.
even for hero is a chance to go out
Am I crazy? Neither the loser of Solar/Serral or DRG and Elazer can get to three win, so they can't kick herO and Special out. Did I miss somethig?
On February 11 2023 20:27 Charoisaur wrote: Neeb is the first player to take a series from one of the top 4 Zergs at a world championship since 2021
I assume you meant non-zerg player, but is this actually true?
yeah edited it
aren't you just saying "it didn't happen in 2022, and it took till day 3 of group stage in 2023"? in which case i don't think its that special, really. like yeah, '22 was odd, but that's about it
Yeah this tournament wasn't this special thus far however I think it's still remarkable that this series ended. And saying '22 was odd is a bit of an understatement, it's kinda insane that no Protoss or Terran could take a single series of them the entire tournament
On February 11 2023 20:38 Schelim wrote: Group C is so tight, Special could advance in first place or be eliminated depending on how it turns out. Kinda crazy.
I think Special is safe, at worst he's gonna be 3-2 and the two 2-2 player are playing against each others.
He can still Go Out on mapscore i think.
even for hero is a chance to go out
Am I crazy? Neither the loser of Solar/Serral or DRG and Elazer can get to three win, so they can't kick herO and Special out. Did I miss somethig?
herO is safe yea. He can't fall to 4th.
Pretty sure if Serral, Solar and Special all win 2-0 herO is out
On February 11 2023 20:38 Schelim wrote: Group C is so tight, Special could advance in first place or be eliminated depending on how it turns out. Kinda crazy.
I think Special is safe, at worst he's gonna be 3-2 and the two 2-2 player are playing against each others.
He can still Go Out on mapscore i think.
even for hero is a chance to go out
Am I crazy? Neither the loser of Solar/Serral or DRG and Elazer can get to three win, so they can't kick herO and Special out. Did I miss somethig?
herO is safe yea. He can't fall to 4th.
Yes he can. If Serral and Solar both win 2-0 and herO loses 2-0 he is out on mapscore. He needs to win 1 map to secure his spot.
On February 11 2023 21:00 Acrofales wrote: Dark has to be thanking the stars that there's barely any protoss in the Ro12
From his performance so far Dark showed up ready to play ZvT and nothing else. Then again it's Dark so nobody should be surprised if he starts destroying in the playoffs.
On February 11 2023 21:00 Acrofales wrote: Dark has to be thanking the stars that there's barely any protoss in the Ro12
I dont think you can assess His zvp from this series vs neeb.
It wouldn't surprise me if he just hasn't been practicing it. The odds he'd need to vs how much he needs to practice vs Zerg and vs Terran is a lot lower.
On February 11 2023 20:57 swarminfestor wrote: If Solar win 2-0, Serral win 2-1 and Special lose 2-0 to herO, what will decide the outcome of Group C?
I think, Special would be knocked out. That would give Solar and Serral each 7 map wins and Special only 6.
So, Special should only take one map from herO to force the tiebreaker with Solar and Serral then. I would love to see how ESL enforce their rule in the case this happens.
On February 11 2023 21:00 Acrofales wrote: Dark has to be thanking the stars that there's barely any protoss in the Ro12
From his performance so far Dark showed up ready to play ZvT and nothing else. Then again it's Dark so nobody should be surprised if he starts destroying in the playoffs.
Yea you're right. I don't know why anyone is trying to understand what is going on with Dark. Motherfucker is an enigma, you can't predict him.
Honestly the only major mistake Creator made that I saw was that he got supply blocked when the attack hit but I'm pretty sure he would have been dead by the time the 2nd immortal popped out anyway.
On February 11 2023 20:57 swarminfestor wrote: If Solar win 2-0, Serral win 2-1 and Special lose 2-0 to herO, what will decide the outcome of Group C?
I think, Special would be knocked out. That would give Solar and Serral each 7 map wins and Special only 6.
So, Special should only take one map from herO to force the tiebreaker with Solar and Serral then. I would love to see how ESL enforce their rule in the case this happens.
in that case will be head2head record, and solar won vs serral
On February 11 2023 20:27 Charoisaur wrote: Neeb is the first non-Zerg player to take a series from one of the top 4 Zergs at a world championship since 2021
On February 11 2023 21:18 Acrofales wrote: Why is Creator Vs Reynor not on main stage?
I think the logic is that Creator is guaranteed a stage match in the playoffs anyway, so they'll go with the elimination match + home country player combo
On February 11 2023 21:23 Vindicare605 wrote: Reynor about to be the only 5-0 series player to advance to the playoffs. He can thank the fact he didn't have any mirrors in his group lol.
I don’t think Reynor would have lost a ZvZ though, he seems in shape
On February 11 2023 21:23 Vindicare605 wrote: Reynor about to be the only 5-0 series player to advance to the playoffs. He can thank the fact he didn't have any mirrors in his group lol.
also, compared to the other groups, his group had the less heavy hitters.
On February 11 2023 21:23 Vindicare605 wrote: Reynor about to be the only 5-0 series player to advance to the playoffs. He can thank the fact he didn't have any mirrors in his group lol.
I don’t think Reynor would have lost a ZvZ though, he seems in shape
I don't think he would either. But the joke stands.
On February 11 2023 21:23 Vindicare605 wrote: Reynor about to be the only 5-0 series player to advance to the playoffs. He can thank the fact he didn't have any mirrors in his group lol.
I don’t think Reynor would have lost a ZvZ though, he seems in shape
I don't think he would either. But the joke stands.
it might surprise you, but your posting history would make people think you're a miserable whiner and not someone given to humor
On February 11 2023 21:23 darklycid wrote: I Heard protoss has the strong Timings in pvz but i aint seeing it so far (but zerg has the worst so this Queen Thing for Sure is a one Off)
On February 11 2023 21:27 AzAlexZ wrote: if Solar wins 2-0 and Elazer takes a map off of Serral than Serral is eliminated?
No If Serral wins, regardless of mapscore, he's through: if herO wins, he has the tie breaker over Special, and if Special wins, he has the tie breaker over herO.
On February 11 2023 21:23 Vindicare605 wrote: Reynor about to be the only 5-0 series player to advance to the playoffs. He can thank the fact he didn't have any mirrors in his group lol.
I don’t think Reynor would have lost a ZvZ though, he seems in shape
I don't think he would either. But the joke stands.
it might surprise you, but your posting history would make people think you're a miserable whiner and not someone given to humor
Perhaps I should use your strategy and mix in more of the TL emojis.
Gotta cheer for Elazer now, I think Serral can get eliminated if he loses there, which would allow for a nice Dark vs Reynor ZvZ kill before the finals? Probably no Maru today on stage since he will probably directly qualify to ro8 also
On February 11 2023 21:33 Poopi wrote: Gotta cheer for Elazer now, I think Serral can get eliminated if he loses there, which would allow for a nice Dark vs Reynor ZvZ kill before the finals? Probably no Maru today on stage since he will probably directly qualify to ro8 also
Serral is in danger if he loses a single map to Elazer, as long as Solar puts away DRG convincingly. Oh shoot, no he can still advance over Special if Special doesn't win a map.
So yea good chances he advances, but he advances for sure with a 2-0.
On February 11 2023 21:33 Poopi wrote: Gotta cheer for Elazer now, I think Serral can get eliminated if he loses there, which would allow for a nice Dark vs Reynor ZvZ kill before the finals? Probably no Maru today on stage since he will probably directly qualify to ro8 also
Serral is in danger if he loses a single map to Elazer, as long as Solar puts away DRG convincingly. Oh shoot, no he can still advance over Special if Special doesn't win a map.
So yea good chances he advances, but he advances for sure with a 2-0.
Even if Special wins a map, Serral has the tie breaker... if he wins.
On February 11 2023 21:28 dysenterymd wrote: Reynor looks like the strongest player in the tournament, though there are some questions because no ZvZ + he had the easiest group.
Meh. Wouldn't go that far yet. He's in the weakest group with only gumiho being a threat. And even then gumiho would need a prepared format.
Curious. This is two series in a row where they just are not going to even mention the Queen Drop timing that Reynor uses, they skip it and only talk about the less interesting game in the series after it.
On February 11 2023 21:43 Vindicare605 wrote: Curious. This is two series in a row where they just are not going to even mention the Queen Drop timing that Reynor uses, they skip it and only talk about the less interesting game in the series after it.
I'm pretty sure that has been a thing since the transfuse nerf
Damn Dark while looked insane vs terrans now he lost again... He looked sloppy, also his cheeses are not working right now, Rag and Neeb countered it well.
Glad Neeb finally fought back to Dark, after getting styled on by him for the last several years.
On February 11 2023 21:47 Shathe wrote: Damn Dark while looked insane vs terrans now he lost again... He looked sloppy, also his cheeses are not working right now, Rag and Neeb countered it well.
Glad Neeb finally fought back to Dark, after getting styled on by him for the last several years.
I wonder if he had nerves. He starting playing much better after he had no chance of advancing.
On February 11 2023 21:43 Vindicare605 wrote: Curious. This is two series in a row where they just are not going to even mention the Queen Drop timing that Reynor uses, they skip it and only talk about the less interesting game in the series after it.
Yeah I think they are all members of the Zerg cabal and don't want to draw attention towards it /s
On February 11 2023 21:43 Vindicare605 wrote: Curious. This is two series in a row where they just are not going to even mention the Queen Drop timing that Reynor uses, they skip it and only talk about the less interesting game in the series after it.
Yeah I think they are all members of the Zerg cabal and don't want to draw attention towards it /s
On February 11 2023 21:43 Vindicare605 wrote: Curious. This is two series in a row where they just are not going to even mention the Queen Drop timing that Reynor uses, they skip it and only talk about the less interesting game in the series after it.
Yeah I think they are all members of the Zerg cabal and don't want to draw attention towards it /s
Nah they obviously Just want to keep the ladder healthy, otherwise every zerg the Next days would Just Play this build (/s).
On February 11 2023 21:43 Vindicare605 wrote: Curious. This is two series in a row where they just are not going to even mention the Queen Drop timing that Reynor uses, they skip it and only talk about the less interesting game in the series after it.
Yeah I think they are all members of the Zerg cabal and don't want to draw attention towards it /s
Queen-Anon
man "Zerg cabal" is the best SC2 meme we've had in years
On February 11 2023 21:43 Vindicare605 wrote: Curious. This is two series in a row where they just are not going to even mention the Queen Drop timing that Reynor uses, they skip it and only talk about the less interesting game in the series after it.
Yeah I think they are all members of the Zerg cabal and don't want to draw attention towards it /s
Queen-Anon
man "Zerg cabal" is the best SC2 meme we've had in years
and Queen-Anon is a great addition
the golden days are back, baby!
Yup, it’s 2012 all over again with the broodlords buff (except it’s hydras instead of infestors?)
On February 11 2023 21:43 Vindicare605 wrote: Curious. This is two series in a row where they just are not going to even mention the Queen Drop timing that Reynor uses, they skip it and only talk about the less interesting game in the series after it.
Yeah I think they are all members of the Zerg cabal and don't want to draw attention towards it /s
Queen-Anon
man "Zerg cabal" is the best SC2 meme we've had in years
and Queen-Anon is a great addition
the golden days are back, baby!
Yup, it’s 2012 all over again with the broodlords buff (except it’s hydras instead of infestors?)
Meanwhile we May get more terran than zergs in the ro12
On February 11 2023 21:43 Vindicare605 wrote: Curious. This is two series in a row where they just are not going to even mention the Queen Drop timing that Reynor uses, they skip it and only talk about the less interesting game in the series after it.
Yeah I think they are all members of the Zerg cabal and don't want to draw attention towards it /s
Queen-Anon
man "Zerg cabal" is the best SC2 meme we've had in years
and Queen-Anon is a great addition
the golden days are back, baby!
Yup, it’s 2012 all over again with the broodlords buff (except it’s hydras instead of infestors?)
Meanwhile we May get more terran than zergs in the ro12
mainly due to group D basically guaranteeing 3 terrans advancing though. Ro8/ro4 distribution will be more interesting
On February 11 2023 21:43 Vindicare605 wrote: Curious. This is two series in a row where they just are not going to even mention the Queen Drop timing that Reynor uses, they skip it and only talk about the less interesting game in the series after it.
Yeah I think they are all members of the Zerg cabal and don't want to draw attention towards it /s
Queen-Anon
man "Zerg cabal" is the best SC2 meme we've had in years
and Queen-Anon is a great addition
the golden days are back, baby!
Yup, it’s 2012 all over again with the broodlords buff (except it’s hydras instead of infestors?)
Meanwhile we May get more terran than zergs in the ro12
On February 11 2023 21:43 Vindicare605 wrote: Curious. This is two series in a row where they just are not going to even mention the Queen Drop timing that Reynor uses, they skip it and only talk about the less interesting game in the series after it.
Yeah I think they are all members of the Zerg cabal and don't want to draw attention towards it /s
Queen-Anon
man "Zerg cabal" is the best SC2 meme we've had in years
and Queen-Anon is a great addition
the golden days are back, baby!
Yup, it’s 2012 all over again with the broodlords buff (except it’s hydras instead of infestors?)
Meanwhile we May get more terran than zergs in the ro12
mainly due to group D basically guaranteeing 3 terrans advancing though. Ro8/ro4 distribution will be more interesting
Is Elazer trying? I am sorry to ask this but letting 2 banes walk into the mineral line, TWICE, no walling off on the natural, letting the Spire to be canceled. I mean how did he beat DRG playing like this?
Welp with so much room for craziness this doesn't look like it's going to end all that interestingly. With Serral winning, DRG is out. if herO finishes off Special 2-0 then it's going to come down to who wins Solar vs DRG.
Juanito has to win this game to stay alive for sure, regardless of what happens in the other ZvZ.
On February 11 2023 22:19 tigera6 wrote: Is Elazer trying? I am sorry to ask this but letting 2 banes walk into the mineral line, TWICE, no walling off on the natural, letting the Spire to be canceled. I mean how did he beat DRG playing like this?
Doesn’t look like he tried very hard indeed. Serral is qualified afaik, we might get the infamous ZvZ finals once again
So, with herO winning a map, that means he's through, especially with DRG up vs Solar. So last spot is for Special if he wins or Solar loses or Solar if he pulls it back and Special doesn't.
On February 11 2023 22:19 tigera6 wrote: Is Elazer trying? I am sorry to ask this but letting 2 banes walk into the mineral line, TWICE, no walling off on the natural, letting the Spire to be canceled. I mean how did he beat DRG playing like this?
That's one of the issue with such a format. It can put the players in some tought spot. He fights for 1K, Serral fights for the tournament. Even if you try hard you still know that if you win you eliminate your friend and it might impact your gameplay.
On February 11 2023 22:21 Acrofales wrote: So, with herO winning a map, that means he's through, especially with DRG up vs Solar. So last spot is for Special if he wins or Solar loses or Solar if he pulls it back and Special doesn't.
If Special wins a map and Solar wins 2-1 I think Special is also through on H2H
On February 11 2023 22:19 tigera6 wrote: Is Elazer trying? I am sorry to ask this but letting 2 banes walk into the mineral line, TWICE, no walling off on the natural, letting the Spire to be canceled. I mean how did he beat DRG playing like this?
Didn't look like it to me neither. But then again, he has no reason to try I guess.
Welp. herO 2-0's Special, so he claims 1st place. Special needs to hope that DRG can hold off Solar because if he wins he'll have 7 wins to Special's 6.
ionno why people are making such confident assumptions about player effort
If you've been watching SC2 more than casually, you'll know that eliminated players in round robins have ruined shit for other players PLENTY of times. I almost never question the effort level of eliminated players in IEM/GSL.
On February 11 2023 22:26 Waxangel wrote: ionno why people are making such confident assumptions about player effort
If you've been watching SC2 more than casually, you'll know that eliminated players in round robins have ruined shit for other players PLENTY of times. I almost never question the effort level of eliminated players in IEM/GSL.
I don't think Elazer wasn't trying to win, but it did feel like he was off his game. Maybe he was in a bad headspace or didn't actually believe he could win. Felt like and old Creator kind of series.
Oh no, depending on how ESL draws up these brackets, cuz I can never be sure how they do it. But if it's in traditional ABCD format, then I think Reynor, Serral and Maru are all going to end up on the same side of the bracket.
On February 11 2023 22:30 Vindicare605 wrote: Oh no, depending on how ESL draws up these brackets, cuz I can never be sure how they do it. But if it's in traditional ABCD format, then I think Reynor, Serral and Maru are all going to end up on the same side of the bracket.
Yeah when I spoke to Clem during signing session he seemed a bit nervous about having to beat Cure today, it still seems like he can’t bring up his A game in international offline tournaments :/.
There is still a chance for them all to be on the same side of the bracket right? Serral-Dark-Reynor-Maru. Then herO has the whole other side of the bracket for himself.
On February 11 2023 22:37 Poopi wrote: Yeah when I spoke to Clem during signing session he seemed a bit nervous about having to beat Cure today, it still seems like he can’t bring up his A game in international offline tournaments :/.
I don't think offline is the only problem. Not as if he's beat lots of Korean Terrans online either...
On February 11 2023 22:37 tigera6 wrote: There is still a chance for them all to be on the same side of the bracket right? Serral-Dark-Reynor-Maru. Then herO has the whole other side of the bracket for himself.
Fuck! you're right. If they do the seedings in the order I'm thinking of that would put Serral, Dark, Reynor and Maru all on the bottom half of the bracket.
On February 11 2023 22:37 Poopi wrote: Yeah when I spoke to Clem during signing session he seemed a bit nervous about having to beat Cure today, it still seems like he can’t bring up his A game in international offline tournaments :/.
I don't think offline is the only problem. Not as if he's beat lots of Korean Terrans online either...
Indeed he got bopped hard by Dark on predictability alone, that 10min push is getting old.
On February 11 2023 22:39 Acrofales wrote: So, Maru clobbers Lambo and secures first seed here, right? Or is there any chance of an upset?
No. The most each of them can do is add 2 wins to their map total. Maru already has 7 map wins, so he'll have 9 as long as he beats Lambo. The best Byun and HM can get is 8.
On February 11 2023 22:36 dbRic1203 wrote: 5 Zerg 5 Terran 2 Protoss For all the terran tears over the patch, they have nothing to complain about
3 of them, who arguarble all top 5 Terran in the world, come from the group with 4 top Terran and 2 weaker P/Z. Meanwhile 2 other top Terran (Clem and Cure) got eliminated and a top Zerg (Ragnarok) took their place. Like you cant really say anything about the "balance complain" base on these result.
Edit: But Special did beat 3 Zerg in his group other than Serral, so that might be the case.
On February 11 2023 22:39 Acrofales wrote: So, Maru clobbers Lambo and secures first seed here, right? Or is there any chance of an upset?
No. The most each of them can do is add 2 wins to their map total. Maru already has 7 map wins, so he'll have 9 as long as he beats Lambo. The best Byun and HM can get is 8.
Yeah, and I guess as long as Byun wins he's guaranteed 2nd. Even if he only goes 2-1 and HM goes 2-0, they tie on mapscore, but Byun won the h2h. Still, beating Classic is not a given.
On February 11 2023 22:43 Morbidius wrote: 5 Terrans but everyone knows only one has a shot. That or Byun shows that class is permanent.
It would be legendary, but as long as his wrists are an issue, especially in a tournament like this. I just can't give him my brain bet for going all the way. He'll have to play potentially 17 matches tomorrow to win in an uncomfortable environment for him.
On February 11 2023 22:36 dbRic1203 wrote: 5 Zerg 5 Terran 2 Protoss For all the terran tears over the patch, they have nothing to complain about
Does ro12 matter especially considering the players in question? The real issue is if any non zerg player will be able to beat Dark / Serral / Reynor. Other zergs don’t really matter even though they might add insult to injury and still be hard to beat too
On February 11 2023 22:36 dbRic1203 wrote: 5 Zerg 5 Terran 2 Protoss For all the terran tears over the patch, they have nothing to complain about
Does ro12 matter especially considering the players in question? The real issue is if any non zerg player will be able to beat Dark / Serral / Reynor. Other zergs don’t really matter even though they might add insult to injury and still be hard to beat too
Yea looking at the pool of players who advanced, the only stand out is HeroMarine over Bunny. I thought Cure had a good chance of getting out of Group A, but I'm not mad at all to see TIME make it out instead. Groups B and C went more or less how I expected, well except for Serral losing twice in ZvZ, but even that isn't THAT surprising.
so here's a question: who do y'all think is the main underdog/spoiler in the Ro12? the person who you wouldn't expect but could beat one of the big 4-6 and make a miracle run to the finals?
On February 11 2023 22:56 Captain Peabody wrote: so here's a question: who do y'all think is the main underdog/spoiler in the Ro12? the person who you wouldn't expect but could beat one of the big 4-6 and make a miracle run to the finals?
I think Byun or Ragnarok, maybe HM. Altought for Ragnarok you could make the case that he's in the big 6 with Serral-Reynor-Maru-Dark and herO.
On February 11 2023 22:56 Captain Peabody wrote: so here's a question: who do y'all think is the main underdog/spoiler in the Ro12? the person who you wouldn't expect but could beat one of the big 4-6 and make a miracle run to the finals?
Gumiho. Honestly, if this was gsl format, I'd consider him a small favorite over every foreigner even the likes of serral and reynor.
On February 11 2023 22:56 Captain Peabody wrote: so here's a question: who do y'all think is the main underdog/spoiler in the Ro12? the person who you wouldn't expect but could beat one of the big 4-6 and make a miracle run to the finals?
Assuming that Dark, Serral, Reynor, herO and Maru are the favorites. Honestly, and I can't believe I'm saying this, I'd say that Ragnarok has the best chance of being a bracket buster. If he can avoid Maru I think he can make a deep run crushing other Zergs and the Protoss players along the way. I haven't actually seen a match of herO vs Ragnarok in a long time so I don't even know how that would play out if they met.
The other big contender to be a bracket buster is Solar for the same reasons. He did just beat Serral yesterday in ZvZ, so that has to be respected and again if he can avoid Maru I think he can take any of the other Terrans in the tournament.
On February 11 2023 22:36 dbRic1203 wrote: 5 Zerg 5 Terran 2 Protoss For all the terran tears over the patch, they have nothing to complain about
Does ro12 matter especially considering the players in question? The real issue is if any non zerg player will be able to beat Dark / Serral / Reynor. Other zergs don’t really matter even though they might add insult to injury and still be hard to beat too
Well, Ragnarok already showed he can beat Dark. Wouldn't be at all surprised if he wrecks Serral. Solar already showed he can beat Serral, although it was close, and Bo5/7 are a different beast. Still, I reckon both Ragnarok and Solar are easier to take down as a T or P than Serral is. So your best bet for a non ZvZ finals is Serral getting sniped in a ZvZ by Ragnarok in the Ro8. And then Ragnarok facing Maru, HM or herO in the Ro4.
On February 11 2023 22:56 Captain Peabody wrote: so here's a question: who do y'all think is the main underdog/spoiler in the Ro12? the person who you wouldn't expect but could beat one of the big 4-6 and make a miracle run to the finals?
Altought for Ragnarok you could make the case that he's in the big 6 with Serral-Reynor-Maru-Dark and herO.
How? All of the guys in that list are multi time champions. Ragnarok has a single Code S finals to his name. He might be in form now, but you can't put him in the same list as those 5.
On February 11 2023 22:36 dbRic1203 wrote: 5 Zerg 5 Terran 2 Protoss For all the terran tears over the patch, they have nothing to complain about
Does ro12 matter especially considering the players in question? The real issue is if any non zerg player will be able to beat Dark / Serral / Reynor. Other zergs don’t really matter even though they might add insult to injury and still be hard to beat too
Well, Ragnarok already showed he can beat Dark. Wouldn't be at all surprised if he wrecks Serral. Solar already showed he can beat Serral, although it was close, and Bo5/7 are a different beast. Still, I reckon both Ragnarok and Solar are easier to take down as a T or P than Serral is. So your best bet for a non ZvZ finals is Serral getting sniped in a ZvZ by Ragnarok in the Ro8. And then Ragnarok facing Maru, HM or herO in the Ro4.
herO can absolutely beat Dark/Reynor in a bo5. I worry that if he has to face multiple top Zerg he'll run out of builds and get run over though.
Reynor has also looked hopeless against Maru's turtling in the past, but it remains to be seen if Maru can replicate that in the new patch.
Other than that yeah, a ZvZ upset is the most likely way we avoid ZvZ final.
yeah I think my "head" spoilers are Solar or Ragnarok, both been looking strong lately and kind of fly below the radar but can realistically take down anyone on a good day
my "heart" spoilers would be Byun or Gumiho or Creator, more "creative" fun inconsistent players that I personally like and like watching and would love to see go far on the basis of some unique stylings. and I think they have it in them.
wackiest spoiler would be Time/Oliveira crushing everyone and going to the finals lol
On February 11 2023 23:05 Captain Peabody wrote: yeah I think my "head" spoilers are Solar or Ragnarok, both been looking strong lately and kind of fly below the radar but can realistically take down anyone on a good day
my "heart" spoilers would be Byun or Gumiho or Creator, more "creative" fun inconsistent players that I personally like and like watching and would love to see go far on the basis of some unique stylings. and I think they have it in them.
wackiest spoiler would be Time/Oliveira crushing everyone and going to the finals lol
If TIME goes onto crush the entire tournament I will be inconsolably happy. Best result that could happen other than a Maru win.
I think it's easier to explain. A lot of these guys haven't been practicing vs Protoss as much because the odds they'd have to actually have to is low. herO is the only Protoss who's a real threat in the entire tournament.
On February 11 2023 23:10 royalroadweed wrote: This is such garbage play from Byun that I'm legit wondering about match fixing.
Come on dude
He evacuated a mineral line due to a probe. He flew his orbital and then changed directions and flew it over classic's army. He loaded 2 medivacs full of units instead of trying to save his orbital. These are eyebrow raising decisions.
I think Byun didn't practice vs P for this. He also doesn't really care about this match, because it's very unlikely he gets the #1 seed, and I guess he'd rather just focus on his possible Ro12 matches. Will be ironic if HM loses and Byun takes #2 and gets matched with Creator. But maybe he even plans for that possibility and isn't showing his prepared vP builds now.
On February 11 2023 23:10 royalroadweed wrote: This is such garbage play from Byun that I'm legit wondering about match fixing.
Come on dude
He evacuated a mineral line due to a probe. He flew his orbital and then changed directions and flew it over classic's army. He loaded 2 medivacs full of units instead of trying to save his orbital. These are eyebrow raising decisions.
User was warned for this post
You shut your mouth. Don’t you dare disrespect da power of a probe!
Clem should REALLY consider reaching out to HM for TvT practice. HM's fundamental understanding of the match up is just so much better. You can't replace that kind of experience with pure speed and mechanics.
On February 11 2023 23:32 Topin wrote: wow poor Bunny, i thought he would have a much better tournament :/
Yea Bunny completely bombing out of this tournament is the most surprising thing that has happened so far. He's looked like he was about to rise to true contender status leading up to this year, and now I just don't know.
Looking forward to seeing how or if he bounces back from this during the next GSL season.
I was wondering why more and more players land vikings vs tanks when they see an unsiege... liquipedia provides the answer: - Landed viking shooting a tank (mechanical): DPS = 16.9 + 11.3 = 28.2 (!)
On the subject of Feardragon reminiscing about Scarlett-DRG, I remember watching that match at around 3 AM on my phone in a hostel dormroom in Barcelona in my first ever solo trip abroad, trying not to wake the people around me by laughing histerically.
On February 11 2023 23:41 Nakajin wrote: On the subject of Feardragon reminiscing about Scarlett-DRG, I remember watching that match at around 3 AM on my phone in a hostel dormroom in Barcelona in my first ever solo trip abroad, trying not to wake the people around me by laughing histerically.
On February 11 2023 22:36 dbRic1203 wrote: 5 Zerg 5 Terran 2 Protoss For all the terran tears over the patch, they have nothing to complain about
Does ro12 matter especially considering the players in question? The real issue is if any non zerg player will be able to beat Dark / Serral / Reynor. Other zergs don’t really matter even though they might add insult to injury and still be hard to beat too
Well, Ragnarok already showed he can beat Dark. Wouldn't be at all surprised if he wrecks Serral. Solar already showed he can beat Serral, although it was close, and Bo5/7 are a different beast. Still, I reckon both Ragnarok and Solar are easier to take down as a T or P than Serral is. So your best bet for a non ZvZ finals is Serral getting sniped in a ZvZ by Ragnarok in the Ro8. And then Ragnarok facing Maru, HM or herO in the Ro4.
herO can absolutely beat Dark/Reynor in a bo5. I worry that if he has to face multiple top Zerg he'll run out of builds and get run over though.
Reynor has also looked hopeless against Maru's turtling in the past, but it remains to be seen if Maru can replicate that in the new patch.
Other than that yeah, a ZvZ upset is the most likely way we avoid ZvZ final.
well herO might have to face 2 or 3 zergs tomorrow, don't think he has enough builds to do it
These brackets look pretty exciting. Very balanced, with Reynor and herO on one side and Serral and Maru on the other. And Ragnarok as the ZvZ gatekeeper to try to stop Serral. In general, whoever makes it to the finals through this bracket will have deserved it.
On February 11 2023 23:54 tigera6 wrote: Its completely random, no group matching, other than you cant play against guys in the same group before Ro4
It's not actually random. The ro12 games go as B2-C3, C2-D3, D2-A3 and A2-B3.
Its random in term of which group is match against which other groups. pre-determined would be based on some kind of ranking or group seeding, like A3-B2 and A2-B3.
On February 12 2023 00:14 Gescom wrote: Losing the two cloaked banshees for not much spiraled entirely out of control where Solar had a 20~ drone lead heading into mid-game.
Still wonder how is it fair that Terran protoss lose 2 units and lose, and zerg can just recover from damage so easily.
But oh well, design decisions that won't be fixed until sc3, if ever.
All things considered the fact that Gumiho managed to hide that so well and blindsided Solar with it but Solar managed to bring the game to a point where he almost won it.... that's not good for Gumiho. Just goes to show how difficult of an opponent Solar is, especially straight up in this match up.
On February 11 2023 23:54 tigera6 wrote: Its completely random, no group matching, other than you cant play against guys in the same group before Ro4
It's not actually random. The ro12 games go as B2-C3, C2-D3, D2-A3 and A2-B3.
Its random in term of which group is match against which other groups. pre-determined would be based on some kind of ranking or group seeding, like A3-B2 and A2-B3.
It is almost certainly not random. The Ro12 is
A2-B3 B2-C3 C2-D3 D2-A3
That isn't random.
Then the Ro8 is:
A2B3-C1 B2C3-D1 C2D3-A1 D2A3-B1
So again, just rotated. And then finally they are set up in such a way that the numbers 1 and 2 of any group can't face each other again before the final, with the Ro4 being:
B2C3D1 vs C2D3A1 D2A3B1 vs A2B3C1
So yeah, very far from random. Not the seeding you were expecting, but very much seeded.
On February 11 2023 23:54 tigera6 wrote: Its completely random, no group matching, other than you cant play against guys in the same group before Ro4
It's not actually random. The ro12 games go as B2-C3, C2-D3, D2-A3 and A2-B3.
Its random in term of which group is match against which other groups. pre-determined would be based on some kind of ranking or group seeding, like A3-B2 and A2-B3.
It is almost certainly not random. The Ro12 is
A2-B3 B2-C3 C2-D3 D2-A3
That isn't random.
Then the Ro8 is:
A2B3-C1 B2C3-D1 C2D3-A1 D2A3-B1
So again, just rotated. And then finally they are set up in such a way that the numbers 1 and 2 of any group can't face each other again before the final, with the Ro4 being:
B2C3D1 vs C2D3A1 D2A3B1 vs A2B3C1
So yeah, very far from random. Not the seeding you were expecting, but very much seeded.
I did specificly said that players from the same group cant meet again until the Ro4 and 1st/2nd of the same group cant play till the Final. Thats the only rule they need to follow. The randomness of this, is the fact that they can rotate the group order. Doesnt have to be that B2C3 go with D1, could be with A1 as well and the rest of the bracket change accordingly. We ended up with one that they show us without knowing if there is any other rules that they use.
On February 11 2023 23:54 tigera6 wrote: Its completely random, no group matching, other than you cant play against guys in the same group before Ro4
It's not actually random. The ro12 games go as B2-C3, C2-D3, D2-A3 and A2-B3.
Its random in term of which group is match against which other groups. pre-determined would be based on some kind of ranking or group seeding, like A3-B2 and A2-B3.
It is almost certainly not random. The Ro12 is
A2-B3 B2-C3 C2-D3 D2-A3
That isn't random.
Then the Ro8 is:
A2B3-C1 B2C3-D1 C2D3-A1 D2A3-B1
So again, just rotated. And then finally they are set up in such a way that the numbers 1 and 2 of any group can't face each other again before the final, with the Ro4 being:
B2C3D1 vs C2D3A1 D2A3B1 vs A2B3C1
So yeah, very far from random. Not the seeding you were expecting, but very much seeded.
I did specificly said that players from the same group cant meet again until the Ro4 and 1st/2nd of the same group cant play till the Final. Thats the only rule they need to follow. The randomness of this, is the fact that they can rotate the group order. Doesnt have to be that B2C3 go with D1, could be with A1 as well and the rest of the bracket change accordingly. We ended up with one that they show us without knowing if there is any other rules that they use.
Well, that would *also* not be random. Your accusation is thus not that they are randomizing the bracket but that they are fixing the bracket. That's a lot stronger accusation, and I'd say that it's on you to provide any evidence of that in the face of a fairly straightforward rotational setup.
I dunno. It looks like Gumiho threw everything he had into that game 2 build and when it barely won, he just didn't have anything else that could even the playing field against Solar who had him beat in a straight up game.
Solar continues to show that his TvZ is seriously top class. He doesn't get the respect for how good he is in that match up that he should because of how much Maru always beats up on him.
It's such a bad draw for him to draw Maru as his next opponent. If he had any other Terran instead he'd dismantle them just like he did to Gumiho.
On February 12 2023 01:17 Luolis wrote: Gumiho shouldve just played mech. His bio play is so subpar.
He never forces mech every game of a series though; probably knows he's too easily blind countered if eh does
I can understand the thought process behind it, but i have no idea how he ever would win with his bio. At no place it looked like he had any chances.
Nah Wax is right. At this level you need to be able to bring out Bio at least sometimes in a series to keep the Zerg honest. If Zerg knows you're going to go Mech every game it's too easy for them to just blind counter you and then the series is even easier for them.
TBH there isn't a TvZ game much easier than a Zerg who blind counters expecting Mech only to be hit with Bio. You gotta keep that fear in them to have a chance.
On February 12 2023 01:17 Luolis wrote: Gumiho shouldve just played mech. His bio play is so subpar.
He never forces mech every game of a series though; probably knows he's too easily blind countered if eh does
I can understand the thought process behind it, but i have no idea how he ever would win with his bio. At no place it looked like he had any chances.
Nah Wax is right. At this level you need to be able to bring out Bio at least sometimes in a series to keep the Zerg honest. If Zerg knows you're going to go Mech every game it's too easy for them to just blind counter you and then the series is even easier for them.
I mean as i said, i understand the thought process. Problem is that Gumiho's bio play is complete garbo.
I don't think Gumiho's bio is that hopeless. Solar is just one of the most solid adaptable Zergs in the world, he did a great job deflecting Gumi's attempts to throw him off guard.
On February 12 2023 01:17 Luolis wrote: Gumiho shouldve just played mech. His bio play is so subpar.
He never forces mech every game of a series though; probably knows he's too easily blind countered if eh does
I can understand the thought process behind it, but i have no idea how he ever would win with his bio. At no place it looked like he had any chances.
Nah Wax is right. At this level you need to be able to bring out Bio at least sometimes in a series to keep the Zerg honest. If Zerg knows you're going to go Mech every game it's too easy for them to just blind counter you and then the series is even easier for them.
Yeah, but then you also need to not suck at bio...
That said, Solar's defense in game 1 was excellent. If gumiho's execution had been slightly sharper and he'd have lost fewer units (especially his cloaked banshees). If Gumiho wins that and then game 2 with his cattlebruisers, the situation is VERY different.
On February 12 2023 01:17 Luolis wrote: Gumiho shouldve just played mech. His bio play is so subpar.
He never forces mech every game of a series though; probably knows he's too easily blind countered if eh does
I can understand the thought process behind it, but i have no idea how he ever would win with his bio. At no place it looked like he had any chances.
Nah Wax is right. At this level you need to be able to bring out Bio at least sometimes in a series to keep the Zerg honest. If Zerg knows you're going to go Mech every game it's too easy for them to just blind counter you and then the series is even easier for them.
I mean as i said, i understand the thought process. Problem is that Gumiho's bio play is complete garbo.
He plays Bio just fine vs Protoss. He has the skill to make his Bio play better, but his usual strategy is to beat his opponents by surprising them with build variety. It takes a lot of time and skill to be able to win that way. It's really hard to practice all of your builds like that to perfection and still practice your standard play to compete with someone like Solar who only practices his standard play all day.
I dunno.
Can't really expect Gumiho's Bio play to get much better while still expecting him to stay the same player that has brought him this much success over the years. Solar is just a bad match up for him, especially on these maps. Give him a map pool that plays more to his strengths and creativity and maybe he'll be able to take him down.
On February 12 2023 01:17 Luolis wrote: Gumiho shouldve just played mech. His bio play is so subpar.
He never forces mech every game of a series though; probably knows he's too easily blind countered if eh does
I can understand the thought process behind it, but i have no idea how he ever would win with his bio. At no place it looked like he had any chances.
Nah Wax is right. At this level you need to be able to bring out Bio at least sometimes in a series to keep the Zerg honest. If Zerg knows you're going to go Mech every game it's too easy for them to just blind counter you and then the series is even easier for them.
I mean as i said, i understand the thought process. Problem is that Gumiho's bio play is complete garbo.
He plays Bio just fine vs Protoss. He has the skill to make his Bio play better, but his usual strategy is to beat his opponents by surprising them with build variety. It takes a lot of time and skill to be able to win that way. It's really hard to practice all of your builds like that to perfection and still practice your standard play to compete with someone like Solar who only practices his standard play all day.
I dunno.
Can't really expect Gumiho's Bio play to get much better while still expecting him to stay the same player that has brought him this much success over the years. Solar is just a bad match up for him, especially on these maps. Give him a map pool that plays more to his strengths and creativity and maybe he'll be able to take him down.
Bio vs Zerg is a whole different beast than bio vs Protoss. You have to be so good mechanically to be able to defeat zergs with bio and Gumi just doesnt have that in him. Vs Protoss you dont have to be as tight and trickier strats work better.
Looking ahead to some other possible matches. TIME vs HeroMarine is going to be a banger. Both are great TvT players with very different styles. That should be close. Over/Under on Base races in the series: 1.5.
Winner faces Reynor where he should be heavily favored, but neither of them are exactly free wins for Reynor.
Dark vs herO is a potential finals match in the Ro8. It's definitely at least looking at past achievements the most stacked match of the second round. That should be great. I honestly can't call that one either, maybe slight herO favored because Dark didn't look great vs Neeb earlier but maybe he was hiding some things?
Ragnarok vs Serral. This could be an underrated gem of a match. Ragnarok looked GOOOOOD vs Dark in ZvZ in Group A and Serral has looked weak in the match up in this tournament. This could be a really difficult fight for Serral.
Maru vs Solar doesn't need an introduction. These two have met many times. Maru usually wins but Solar ALWAYS plays him tight. With a new patch and a favorable map pool, this might be his best chance to take his revenge on him.
On February 12 2023 01:57 Vindicare605 wrote: Serral saw the Ghost count and just said "nah, I don't need Lurkers for this." Byun's Ghosts turned into really expensive Marines.
and if serral doesn't see any ghosts, he morphs 15 hydras in 1 go and runs with the game.
On February 12 2023 01:57 Vindicare605 wrote: Serral saw the Ghost count and just said "nah, I don't need Lurkers for this." Byun's Ghosts turned into really expensive Marines.
and if serral doesn't see any ghosts, he morphs 15 hydras in 1 go and runs with the game.
On February 12 2023 01:57 Vindicare605 wrote: Serral saw the Ghost count and just said "nah, I don't need Lurkers for this." Byun's Ghosts turned into really expensive Marines.
Hard choice, because if Byun waits with the ghost transition until after Serral builds a load of lurkers, he probably loses an army and a base to lurkers and he's dead anyway. I just think that Serral defended far too well to Byun's non-stop aggression, and he had a huge advantage at that point already.
There's a really high chance (probably 80%+) that Maru will have to win three TvZ in a row, Solar + Serral + Dark/Raynor. I.e. up to 17 games of TvZ on highest possible level, in 1 day. I'd rate his chance to win at 5% at best, even at his best level.
On February 12 2023 02:04 ZeroByte13 wrote: There's a really high chance (probably 80%+) that Maru will have to win three TvZ in a row, Solar + Serral + Dark/Raynor. I.e. up to 17 games TvZ on highest level, in 1 day. I'd rate his chance to win at 5% at best, even at his best level.
facing multiple zergs in a single day just seems so hard for terran and protoss, you run out of builds fast
On February 12 2023 02:04 ZeroByte13 wrote: There's a really high chance (probably 80%+) that Maru will have to win three TvZ in a row, Solar + Serral + Dark/Raynor. I.e. up to 17 games of TvZ on highest possible level, in 1 day. I'd rate his chance to win at 5% at best, even at his best level.
His only realistic chance of not facing 3 Zergs in a row is to face 2 Zergs in a row and then conclude the day playing against herO.
On February 12 2023 01:57 Vindicare605 wrote: Serral saw the Ghost count and just said "nah, I don't need Lurkers for this." Byun's Ghosts turned into really expensive Marines.
and if serral doesn't see any ghosts, he morphs 15 hydras in 1 go and runs with the game.
On February 12 2023 02:11 Vindicare605 wrote: Yea now Byun has the opposite problem. These Lurkers are just wrecking him because he doesn't have Ghosts ready yet.
On February 12 2023 02:12 Captain Peabody wrote: man it does feel obnoxious that Serral can throw away like ten roaches in the early game and still be as solid as that
hard to imagine protoss or terran getting away with such losses against zerg and in game 1 there were some vipers in the middle of the map I guess bad rally, imagine that happening to colossus or something lol
One thing I hope people notice is how lackuster and insuficient the viper nerf is.
There is no point in putting the counterplay AFTER the viper already abducted your units. That's not counterplay. And sometimes it isn't even worth it to focus them after the abduct because:
1) they already killed your core unit 2) you need to kill their units, the viper already did what it should, you ned to wiin the engagement now or you lose and killing a 0 energy viper is not your priority.
On February 12 2023 02:12 Captain Peabody wrote: man it does feel obnoxious that Serral can throw away like ten roaches in the early game and still be as solid as that
hard to imagine protoss or terran getting away with such losses against zerg
On February 12 2023 02:11 Vindicare605 wrote: Yea now Byun has the opposite problem. These Lurkers are just wrecking him because he doesn't have Ghosts ready yet.
But in this game, Serral really really needed the lurkers. If Byun had preemptively built ghosts instead of throwing away a bunch of medivacs full of bio that he had to rebuild, he could probably have crushed that last army. The vipers had been out and pestering him for a while already, but he was suuuper late going into ghosts. Not sure why.
On February 12 2023 02:14 [Phantom] wrote: One thing I hope people notice is how lackuster and insuficient the viper nerf is.
There is no point in putting the counterplay AFTER the viper already abducted your units. That's not counterplay. And sometimes it isn't even worth it to focus them after the abduct because:
1) they already killed your core unit 2) you need to kill their units, the viper already did what it should, you ned to wiin the engagement now or you lose and killing a 0 energy viper is not your priority.
The change should have been a different one.
The change was exactly what they wanted, an inconsequential nerf on an absurd unit that dominates the lategame of all Zerg matchups. And to think Blizzard wanted them as lair tech to replace overseers.
On February 12 2023 02:12 Captain Peabody wrote: man it does feel obnoxious that Serral can throw away like ten roaches in the early game and still be as solid as that
hard to imagine protoss or terran getting away with such losses against zerg and in game 1 there were some vipers in the middle of the map I guess bad rally, imagine that happening to colossus or something lol
I mean, I've seen Maru do it plenty of times. People are always hype for his amazing comebacks. We're only blaming Serral because of the general Zerg performance.
On February 12 2023 02:14 [Phantom] wrote: One thing I hope people notice is how lackuster and insuficient the viper nerf is.
There is no point in putting the counterplay AFTER the viper already abducted your units. That's not counterplay. And sometimes it isn't even worth it to focus them after the abduct because:
1) they already killed your core unit 2) you need to kill their units, the viper already did what it should, you ned to wiin the engagement now or you lose and killing a 0 energy viper is not your priority.
The change should have been a different one.
Honestly I think the viper change has more to do with visual/mecanical jankiness than any gameplay change
On February 12 2023 02:14 [Phantom] wrote: One thing I hope people notice is how lackuster and insuficient the viper nerf is.
There is no point in putting the counterplay AFTER the viper already abducted your units. That's not counterplay. And sometimes it isn't even worth it to focus them after the abduct because:
1) they already killed your core unit 2) you need to kill their units, the viper already did what it should, you ned to wiin the engagement now or you lose and killing a 0 energy viper is not your priority.
The change should have been a different one.
abduct is a net negative to the game, it just completely nullifies units.
On February 12 2023 02:11 Vindicare605 wrote: Yea now Byun has the opposite problem. These Lurkers are just wrecking him because he doesn't have Ghosts ready yet.
But in this game, Serral really really needed the lurkers. If Byun had preemptively built ghosts instead of throwing away a bunch of medivacs full of bio that he had to rebuild, he could probably have crushed that last army. The vipers had been out and pestering him for a while already, but he was suuuper late going into ghosts. Not sure why.
Serral needed the Lurkers because Byun wasn't spending money preemptively preparing for a Ghost transition. It's an easy explanation really.
On February 12 2023 02:14 [Phantom] wrote: One thing I hope people notice is how lackuster and insuficient the viper nerf is.
There is no point in putting the counterplay AFTER the viper already abducted your units. That's not counterplay. And sometimes it isn't even worth it to focus them after the abduct because:
1) they already killed your core unit 2) you need to kill their units, the viper already did what it should, you ned to wiin the engagement now or you lose and killing a 0 energy viper is not your priority.
The change should have been a different one.
Yes and no. Against siege tank or colossus abducts: yes. But the abducts vs skytoss definitely got nerfed.
On February 12 2023 02:14 [Phantom] wrote: One thing I hope people notice is how lackuster and insuficient the viper nerf is.
There is no point in putting the counterplay AFTER the viper already abducted your units. That's not counterplay. And sometimes it isn't even worth it to focus them after the abduct because:
1) they already killed your core unit 2) you need to kill their units, the viper already did what it should, you ned to wiin the engagement now or you lose and killing a 0 energy viper is not your priority.
The change should have been a different one.
Yes and no. Against siege tank or colossus abducts: yes. But the abducts vs skytoss definitely got nerfed.
are we going to see skytoss now that battery overcharge got nerfed and hydras got buffed? and disruptors got nerfed too
On February 12 2023 02:14 [Phantom] wrote: One thing I hope people notice is how lackuster and insuficient the viper nerf is.
There is no point in putting the counterplay AFTER the viper already abducted your units. That's not counterplay. And sometimes it isn't even worth it to focus them after the abduct because:
1) they already killed your core unit 2) you need to kill their units, the viper already did what it should, you ned to wiin the engagement now or you lose and killing a 0 energy viper is not your priority.
The change should have been a different one.
Yes and no. Against siege tank or colossus abducts: yes. But the abducts vs skytoss definitely got nerfed.
are we going to see skytoss now that battery overcharge got nerfed and hydras got buffed? and disruptors got nerfed too
I only remember seeing one Skytoss game in this tournament so far. I think it was Astrea vs Reynor if I remember correctly. It was the one game Astrea won.
Most of the PvZ games have ended in the mid or midlate game and on the ground.
On February 12 2023 02:24 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Really cool move from Byun to take advantage of Serral's lack of anti-air.
Yeah, the liberators really got Serral into trouble, but that wall delaying all his reinforcements all the time screwed up his engagement. With a few more tanks also covering the ground there, he wins that fight decisively and instead of having to retreat he pushes into Serral's 3rd and probably wins.
On February 12 2023 02:24 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Really cool move from Byun to take advantage of Serral's lack of anti-air.
All Serral was really doing at that point was buying time anyway for his Hydralisk transition. He had 13 Queens it was more than worth it to trade some of them out to keep Byun's army at bay and keep it from regrouping.
You saw, once the Hydralisks were out, Serral simply pushed with his next round of units and Byun just crumbled because Liberators are garbage vs Hydralisks. Byun was going for a specific timing to make those Liberators worth it, and Serral held him off for long enough that they became flying paper weights.
On February 12 2023 02:30 Poopi wrote: ByuN wrists got the better end of him, that and the new maps! Hopefully herO and Maru save the day tomorrow though!
First game looked like it, his micro just unraveled to the point where he wasn't burrowing mines and move commanding them into serral.
Can't imagine RagnaroK wins this ZvZ unless he gets ridiculously lucky. People keep saying he won the BO3 against Dark this tournament but that involved Dark failing a pool-first spine all-in and some other nonsense.
So down to 2 Terran in Ro8, possibly 1 Protoss and 5 Zerg. This might be worst than the last IEM given how Rogue left for the army, Ragnarok just simply fit right into his place.
I know I'm beeing a bit of a ass today, but man looking at that bracket is a bit depressing. Dark's gonna beat Creator, Maru will beat Solar into getting bopped by Serral, Reynor's beating either of the terran, if we're lucky herO will beat Dark before losing to Reynor.
On February 12 2023 02:38 tigera6 wrote: So down to 2 Terran in Ro8, possibly 1 Protoss and 5 Zerg. This might be worst than the last IEM given how Rogue left for the army, Ragnarok just simply fit right into his place.
And, that's with the group stage limiting how many Zerg could even advance in the first place. Maximum we could only have had 2 additional Zergs coming from the groups, and one of those would have required Lambo qualifying in a group with Maru, Byun, Bunny, Classic and HeroMarine.
The other Zerg that could have qualified was one of the two zergs that were eliminated in Group C, and that would have required knocking out herO.
So ESL has done as much as they reasonably could to limit how many Zergs are able to clog up the playoffs, and yet here we are.
The only two players who have a winning record in an offline Bo3+ against Serral since 2018 are DRG (a single 2-0 from this tournament) and Hurricane (a single 2-0 in IEM 2020).
Serral's win rate against Koreans under those conditions are 68% in games and 78% in matches.
I kinda want Solar to finally get his revenge on Maru... but I don't want another Zerg to advance, and in this tournament people would just blame it on balance anyway.
On February 12 2023 02:55 Vindicare605 wrote: Honestly our best chance to see a non ZvZ final is for Serral to lose to Ragnarok, and I'm not betting on that happening either.
That is really true. Also wishing Reynor and Serral meet each other earlier but the bracket prevent them from doing so until the final.
On February 12 2023 02:52 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I kinda want Solar to finally get his revenge on Maru... but I don't want another Zerg to advance, and in this tournament people would just blame it on balance anyway.
I want solar to finally beat Maru in a series. Solar is becoming a meme for Maru at this point
People will complain about Zergs regardless, even when the obvious fact is staring them in the face
The current top Zergs are just a tier above their peers
Ppl really expecting Byun and gumiho to win? Lol
Also are people really expecting herO currently 31 years old to compete against younger faster players and beat them on a consistent basis? herO is the best toss right now, but that ain’t saying much when the Protoss player field is so slim and bad
On February 12 2023 02:47 Gescom wrote: her0 v Maru a legit possibility for the finals. Save us boys.
(Serral v HeroMarine would be sick as hell though)
Maru would have to knock out Serral and Solar, in order to make that happen. herO would have to knock out Reynor and Dark.
HerOMarine would have to win this match, defeat Reynor and then beat the winner of Dark/Hero to get to the finals.
None of those outcomes seem likely. Possible? maybe. likely? No.
Well, I see Serral losing to Ragnarok and herO beating Dark and Reynor is possible I think
I am also a bit confused by everyone just assuming Serral is beating Ragnarok. Today Serral looked dominant vs Elazer, but Elazer played badly, letting a bunch of pokes do wayyy more damage than they reasonably should. Meanwhile DRG stomped him and Solar beat him in fairly standard games. Ragnarok is probably better than either of those two at ZvZ.
Serral really should be the favourite, but he has looked really vulnerable this tournament. He's also shown far more ZvZ than Ragna has, so if there's timings he likes to play on, Ragna can figure that out with more ease than Serral can. Especially with how wonky Ragna's games Vs Dark were.
It's hard to say what Maru vs the top Zergs is gonna look like since he only had one match against Lambo which was a pretty quick 2-0 for him.
We don't know what the ACTUAL state of late-game TvZ is yet because we haven't seen Maru play it. Anyway setting aside a good 2 hours for Maru vs Serral tomorrow
On February 12 2023 02:52 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I kinda want Solar to finally get his revenge on Maru... but I don't want another Zerg to advance, and in this tournament people would just blame it on balance anyway.
I want solar to finally beat Maru in a series. Solar is becoming a meme for Maru at this point
People will complain about Zergs regardless, even when the obvious fact is staring them in the face
The current top Zergs are just a tier above their peers
Ppl really expecting Byun and gumiho to win? Lol
Also are people really expecting herO currently 31 years old to compete against younger faster players and beat them on a consistent basis? herO is the best toss right now, but that ain’t saying much when the Protoss player field is so slim and bad
Don't know what kind of 'obvious fact' that is. I've been a fan of Solar for a long time, he used to be in my underdogs lineup with the likes of Hurricane. Don't know when he got promoted to a player on the tier of "literally the best Protoss in the world and none other".
On February 12 2023 03:08 Waxangel wrote: It's hard to say what Maru vs the top Zergs is gonna look like since he only had one match against Lambo which was a pretty quick 2-0 for him.
We don't know what the ACTUAL state of late-game TvZ is yet because we haven't seen Maru play it. Anyway setting aside a good 2 hours for Maru vs Serral tomorrow
I think we got a pretty good idea from Serral Vs Byun. It'll look like that, except with ghost transitions that *work*. Also, with WM micro. But maybe not with the insane drop micro among those liberators.
On February 12 2023 03:08 Waxangel wrote: It's hard to say what Maru vs the top Zergs is gonna look like since he only had one match against Lambo which was a pretty quick 2-0 for him.
We don't know what the ACTUAL state of late-game TvZ is yet because we haven't seen Maru play it. Anyway setting aside a good 2 hours for Maru vs Serral tomorrow
Maru was losing lategame to Serral on the old patch, now Ghosts are nerfed, Ultras and Broodlords buffed and terran didn't get anything that helps them in that stage
On February 12 2023 03:08 Waxangel wrote: It's hard to say what Maru vs the top Zergs is gonna look like since he only had one match against Lambo which was a pretty quick 2-0 for him.
We don't know what the ACTUAL state of late-game TvZ is yet because we haven't seen Maru play it. Anyway setting aside a good 2 hours for Maru vs Serral tomorrow
If Maru's games vs Lambo are any indication (and it's likely they're not) Maru doesn't want to play late game and will try and win in the midgame like Byun did.
The series was over so quickly vs Lambo because he just clobbered him in the midgame even when Lambo had favorable openings.
I don't know if Maru is stubborn enough to try that against Serral who looks almost unbeatable in that kind of game, but he's for sure going to try and beat Solar that way at least at first.
On February 12 2023 03:08 Waxangel wrote: It's hard to say what Maru vs the top Zergs is gonna look like since he only had one match against Lambo which was a pretty quick 2-0 for him.
We don't know what the ACTUAL state of late-game TvZ is yet because we haven't seen Maru play it. Anyway setting aside a good 2 hours for Maru vs Serral tomorrow
Maru was losing lategame to Serral on the old patch, now Ghosts are nerfed, Ultras and Broodlords buffed and terran didn't get anything that helps them in that stage
Also Ravens are weaker in late game situations where they would have max energy. The one thing that Maru might try that the other late game TvZ terrans I've watched haven't is making use of Speed Banshees. Maru's done it before, but they've always been more of a novelty than a staple of his playstyle.
On February 12 2023 02:52 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I kinda want Solar to finally get his revenge on Maru... but I don't want another Zerg to advance, and in this tournament people would just blame it on balance anyway.
I want solar to finally beat Maru in a series. Solar is becoming a meme for Maru at this point
People will complain about Zergs regardless, even when the obvious fact is staring them in the face
The current top Zergs are just a tier above their peers
Ppl really expecting Byun and gumiho to win? Lol
Also are people really expecting herO currently 31 years old to compete against younger faster players and beat them on a consistent basis? herO is the best toss right now, but that ain’t saying much when the Protoss player field is so slim and bad
Why do you think there are too few protoss? They retired and went to the military, sure. But so have other players from other races. Why do you think more protoss retired, and are not comming back to the game in the same proportion as other players? If they believed they could win, they wouldn't be going to BW like Deer. They know the state of the balance, you know the state of the balance. you can't keep trying to hide the sun with a finger. Yes, Zerg has great players, but you can't possibly say they are all better and than T and Protoss and have been for 5+years.
On February 12 2023 03:16 Kreuger wrote: Oliveira playing really well, now lets se if Gabe as usual in Katowice comes back from a decifiet
It'd probably be for the best. However much I feel it's time for a deep Katowice run for TIME, I give HM better odds Vs Reynor (still a very long shot).
Uh, Maru never lost to Serral in lategame in recent memory. If you let Maru get on late tech unit on equal footing, Maru almost never lost that TvZ lategame, even to Serral. But since then Serral has hellbent on taking Maru down before it reaches lategame. Basically he was playing Maru like Dark and Rogue, mixing all in, Muta, lingbane keep crashing in, roach, ect. So if things go to lategame, I see Maru has a good shot, the question is how can he withstand the initial barrage.
On February 12 2023 03:08 Waxangel wrote: It's hard to say what Maru vs the top Zergs is gonna look like since he only had one match against Lambo which was a pretty quick 2-0 for him.
We don't know what the ACTUAL state of late-game TvZ is yet because we haven't seen Maru play it. Anyway setting aside a good 2 hours for Maru vs Serral tomorrow
Maru was losing lategame to Serral on the old patch, now Ghosts are nerfed, Ultras and Broodlords buffed and terran didn't get anything that helps them in that stage
Maru was absolutely not losing lategame to Serral on the old patch. He got bopped when he tried to play MMM mid-game but usually won the late-game map splits
But now BLs and Ultras are better and ghosts are worse. So you say that Maru would have better chance in late game, but Serral killed him before that.
Now Serral will have even better chances in mid-game (hydra buff), so even harder for Maru to survive until late-game. And if he does - now Zerg late-game (BLs and ultras) was buffed and Terran (ghosts) was nerfed.
Whatever chance Maru would have vs Serral with old patch - situation is probably significantly worse for him now.
Yeah, I just hope that Maru lategame is still amazing enough to show us how to drop those top Zerg even on the current patch and map. But who knows, he might not play any of the top 3 Zerg this time.
Sucks that travel issues kept TIME from competing at DH Valencia and TSL9. That horrible DH Atlanta performance really wasn't a fair representation of his abilities, and it's good to see him getting a chance to show his skills in Kato.
Feels like Oliveira is the better player, even in the last game he got himself back into it and seemed to win the engagements. Just caught out by the big drop.
On February 12 2023 03:39 royalroadweed wrote: I suppose the return of TvT as the premier spectator mirror has been a success of the patch.
Yea, that's why as much as I am annoyed with how much Raven turret harass got nerfed, I think its for the best for how much better TvT is now that Ravens have been nerfed. It's a worthwhile trade off.
Weirdly enough, I think TIME was better as a pure mechanics/speed demon back in 2018-2019 but he got better as a strategist over time. TBH I think the younger TIME would have a better chance against Reynor in the upcoming match.
On February 12 2023 03:35 Waxangel wrote: Sucks that travel issues kept TIME from competing at DH Valencia and TSL9. That horrible DH Atlanta performance really wasn't a fair representation of his abilities, and it's good to see him getting a chance to show his skills in Kato.
This sadly is likely also the final time he gets to show it in an offline setting.
On February 12 2023 03:35 Waxangel wrote: Sucks that travel issues kept TIME from competing at DH Valencia and TSL9. That horrible DH Atlanta performance really wasn't a fair representation of his abilities, and it's good to see him getting a chance to show his skills in Kato.
This sadly is likely also the final time he gets to show it in an offline setting.
Reynor now all but guaranteed Top4, granted tough semifinals against the likely winner of Hero-Dark, but I'm gonna go ahead and call him quadruple back-to-back finalist already.
On February 12 2023 03:35 Waxangel wrote: Sucks that travel issues kept TIME from competing at DH Valencia and TSL9. That horrible DH Atlanta performance really wasn't a fair representation of his abilities, and it's good to see him getting a chance to show his skills in Kato.
This sadly is likely also the final time he gets to show it in an offline setting.
retirement rumors true?
Unless something changes his mind, Kato would be his final individual event, WTL his last pro appearance.
On February 12 2023 03:35 Waxangel wrote: Sucks that travel issues kept TIME from competing at DH Valencia and TSL9. That horrible DH Atlanta performance really wasn't a fair representation of his abilities, and it's good to see him getting a chance to show his skills in Kato.
This sadly is likely also the final time he gets to show it in an offline setting.
retirement rumors true?
Unless something changes his mind, Kato would be his final individual event, WTL his last pro apperance.
On February 12 2023 03:35 Waxangel wrote: Sucks that travel issues kept TIME from competing at DH Valencia and TSL9. That horrible DH Atlanta performance really wasn't a fair representation of his abilities, and it's good to see him getting a chance to show his skills in Kato.
This sadly is likely also the final time he gets to show it in an offline setting.
retirement rumors true?
Unless something changes his mind, Kato would be his final individual event, WTL his last pro apperance.
And that's because of SC2 being shut down in China or was he planning on it anyway?
On February 12 2023 03:35 Waxangel wrote: Sucks that travel issues kept TIME from competing at DH Valencia and TSL9. That horrible DH Atlanta performance really wasn't a fair representation of his abilities, and it's good to see him getting a chance to show his skills in Kato.
This sadly is likely also the final time he gets to show it in an offline setting.
retirement rumors true?
Unless something changes his mind, Kato would be his final individual event, WTL his last pro apperance.
And that's because of SC2 being shut down in China or was he planning on it anyway?
He has had this on the mind for quite a while. Likely going to study abroad.
On February 12 2023 03:53 Poopi wrote: Time is just too good right now, best foreign terran! Too bad he couldn’t show it to more tournaments so everyone is always sleeping on him
I don't know what you mean by that, dude's been showing up for years now. Ever since he took Serral to match point at Blizzcon years back he's been legit as hell.
On February 12 2023 03:35 Waxangel wrote: Sucks that travel issues kept TIME from competing at DH Valencia and TSL9. That horrible DH Atlanta performance really wasn't a fair representation of his abilities, and it's good to see him getting a chance to show his skills in Kato.
This sadly is likely also the final time he gets to show it in an offline setting.
retirement rumors true?
Unless something changes his mind, Kato would be his final individual event, WTL his last pro apperance.
And that's because of SC2 being shut down in China or was he planning on it anyway?
He has had this on the mind for quite a while. Likely going to study abroad.
Maybe he'll be one of those 'retired' progamers depending on the region
On February 12 2023 03:35 Waxangel wrote: Sucks that travel issues kept TIME from competing at DH Valencia and TSL9. That horrible DH Atlanta performance really wasn't a fair representation of his abilities, and it's good to see him getting a chance to show his skills in Kato.
This sadly is likely also the final time he gets to show it in an offline setting.
retirement rumors true?
Unless something changes his mind, Kato would be his final individual event, WTL his last pro apperance.
And that's because of SC2 being shut down in China or was he planning on it anyway?
He has had this on the mind for quite a while. Likely going to study abroad.
Dang, well the scene is gonna miss him. Safe to say he's hands down the best SC2 player to ever come out of China. I don't think anyone is going to take that title away from him anytime soon if ever.
What a patch. If Z clearly was the better race already, how are T and P supposed to compete now? I would wait till Creator, herO, Maru and Oliveira are out, but fuck it, not gonna waste more time watching the garbage they pulled through, good luck to those valiant viewers that stay.
On February 12 2023 03:54 peak5g wrote: The qq in this thread is embarrassing. My God lol.
Only thing embarassing is to put out a patch buffing the best race after having a world championship more imbalanced than Zergcon 2019. Fitting way for the scene to die, at least the patchzergs will have to get a new job.
On February 12 2023 03:54 peak5g wrote: The qq in this thread is embarrassing. My God lol.
Only thing embarassing is to put out a patch buffing the best race after having a world championship more imbalanced than Zergcon 2019. Fitting way for the scene to die, at least the patchzergs will have to get a new job.
Creator is on the same rules Byun was on. He's gotta win the 1st game to have a chance. If Dark punks him in game 1, and Creator is on the main stage like that, I can see him falling apart fast.
I don't think Creator could have asked for a worse opponent. At least if he had drawn Serral, Serral wouldn't be as used to how he likes to play. Dark has been swatting him around in GSL for years.
On February 12 2023 04:13 [Phantom] wrote: Dark is just a solid player (when he isnt clowning), that even if this was a mirrow matchup I'd bet in favor of Dark
The fact that Dark is able to fuck around like he does and still win games makes him even stronger as a player IMO. You can't throw him off his game because if a game gets messy he likes it that way.
It's the only weakness that I've ever seen from guys like Serral or Reynor, if you throw them off of their usual rythmn they can tilt and start making mistakes. Dark doesn't have that weakness.
He doesn't have the kind of invincible strengths that they seem to have but his inability to get flustered by scrap is a strength of its own.
On February 12 2023 04:13 [Phantom] wrote: Dark is just a solid player (when he isnt clowning), that even if this was a mirrow matchup I'd bet in favor of Dark
The fact that Dark is able to fuck around like he does and still win games makes him even stronger as a player IMO. You can't throw him off his game because if a game gets messy he likes it that way.
It's the only weakness that I've ever seen from guys like Serral or Reynor, if you throw them off of their usual rythmn they can tilt and start making mistakes. Dark doesn't have that weakness.
He doesn't have the kind of invincible strengths that they seem to have but his inability to get flustered by scrap is a strength of its own.
Dark going to the military is gonna be a huge blow to the scene, if a zerg is gonna win this tournament then I hope it's Dark
On February 12 2023 04:13 [Phantom] wrote: Dark is just a solid player (when he isnt clowning), that even if this was a mirrow matchup I'd bet in favor of Dark
The fact that Dark is able to fuck around like he does and still win games makes him even stronger as a player IMO. You can't throw him off his game because if a game gets messy he likes it that way.
It's the only weakness that I've ever seen from guys like Serral or Reynor, if you throw them off of their usual rythmn they can tilt and start making mistakes. Dark doesn't have that weakness.
He doesn't have the kind of invincible strengths that they seem to have but his inability to get flustered by scrap is a strength of its own.
Dark going to the military is gonna be a huge blow to the scene, if a zerg is gonna win this tournament then I hope it's Dark
Me too. Reminds me of 2019 Blizzcon. I knew before that tournament ever started that a Zerg was going to win it, but if a Zerg was going to win I wanted it to be Dark. He won that. and if he beats herO and Maru doesn't make the Finals, I hope he wins this one too.
On February 12 2023 04:24 Vindicare605 wrote: And that was the PERFECT counter attack timing for Creator. If he had gone any later Dark would have had Lurkers already.
And Dark still held.
Not looking good.
Meh, he just had to do something other than eat multiple full volleys of swarm hosts. Warm 6 zealots into the main, OR just go home. Panic warping in 6 stalkers while mass immortals fight swarm hosts and hydras... he stuck around way too long.
At one point I counted 11 immortals.For one moment I thought he'd win. Well played by dark.
Not balance whinning, just wondering, do you think immortals barrier should be changed to be more consistent? I've always thought the way it works it's a little weird.
After the immortal receives damage (so if they receive 50 damage, the shield activates AFTER receiving the damage), the shield activates, and then has a 32 second cooldown. Meaning that if you hit it with 1 zergling and wait 2 seconds for it to run out, or for example a lurker shot/tank atacks it, the immrotal received full damage, and after that activates the barrier, and you wait, it means the barrier is completely useless.
I always thought changing it to make it more consistent would have been a good change.
And just to be clear, in no way do I believe Creator lost because of that.
On February 12 2023 04:29 [Phantom] wrote: At one point I counted 11 immortals.For one moment I thought he'd win. Well played by dark.
Not balance whinning, just wondering, do you think immortals barrier should be changed to be more consistent? I've always thought the way it works it's a little weird.
After the immortal receives damage (so if they receive 50 damage, the shield activates AFTER receiving the damage), the shield activates, and then has a 32 second cooldown. Meaning that if you hit it with 1 zergling and wait 2 seconds for it to run out, or for example a lurker shot/tank atacks it, the immrotal received full damage, and after that activates the barrier, and you wait, it means the barrier is completely useless.
I always thought changing it to make it more consistent would have been a good change.
And just to be clear, in no way do I believe Creator lost because of that.
You do know how Hardened Shields USED to work right?
These ARE the more consistent Immortals. I'd rather keep them as they are than mess them up with some kind of half baked rework that doesn't work as well.
Immortals are one of the better designed units that Protoss has in their arsenal right now. They were busted like crazy a long time ago.
Lets take a step back from our current woes and appreciate how many build/style players masters these day, especially in zvp, every game has a different builds nowadays
On February 12 2023 04:29 [Phantom] wrote: At one point I counted 11 immortals.For one moment I thought he'd win. Well played by dark.
Not balance whinning, just wondering, do you think immortals barrier should be changed to be more consistent? I've always thought the way it works it's a little weird.
After the immortal receives damage (so if they receive 50 damage, the shield activates AFTER receiving the damage), the shield activates, and then has a 32 second cooldown. Meaning that if you hit it with 1 zergling and wait 2 seconds for it to run out, or for example a lurker shot/tank atacks it, the immrotal received full damage, and after that activates the barrier, and you wait, it means the barrier is completely useless.
I always thought changing it to make it more consistent would have been a good change.
And just to be clear, in no way do I believe Creator lost because of that.
I think Barrier is a really boring ability and enjoyed Hardened Shields better, but if you're worried about it being prematurely triggered like that, you can just take it off autocast.
On February 12 2023 04:38 Argonauta wrote: The most cold faced I ever seen creator after win an important map
He really stepped up his mental during that GSL run. Ever since he's seemed a bit more on top of his emotions in game.
he was actually bottling up his emotions a lot the deeper he went that season. Like everyone was expecting a huge reaction from him after he won the semi (or maybe it was the RO6 match?), but it was quite staid.
On February 12 2023 03:54 peak5g wrote: The qq in this thread is embarrassing. My God lol.
Only thing embarassing is to put out a patch buffing the best race after having a world championship more imbalanced than Zergcon 2019. Fitting way for the scene to die, at least the patchzergs will have to get a new job.
aight imma actually start moderating now
i considered it yesterday but it wasn't nearly as bad as it seems like it is this morning.
interesting cheese from dark, but creator getting that 2nd base up and running, he was never gonna win that
It's hard to be worried about Dark when he's the one that's been putting himself in these bad situations every game. Creator hasn't even been responding all that well, he misplayed that defense a lot but the build was just not good to begin with.
I feel like if Dark just calms down and plays normally he'll be fine.
On February 12 2023 04:50 [Phantom] wrote: Is creator the guy who would jump and get very exited when he won and cry when he lost? or was that a terran player?
On February 12 2023 04:50 dysenterymd wrote: I think the probe pull made sense at first because there were lots of lings, but keeping them off the line once the lings were gone was silly.
Good thing Creator pulled it out anyways.
I feel like it helped as the only way he loses there is if the ravages get all the shield batteries and the probes helped him defend them. He would probably hold regardless, but I still applaud the decision.
On February 12 2023 04:48 Waxangel wrote: good god, I was afraid Creator was really gonna Creator himself there
LMAO. The probe pull was SO BIZARRE.
it looked bizarre at first but honestly i think it was a great play. he had double the mining and double nexus, he was just trying to make sure he didn't lose his fighting units to any silly minor mismicro
On February 12 2023 04:50 Vindicare605 wrote: It's hard to be worried about Dark when he's the one that's been putting himself in these bad situations every game. Creator hasn't even been responding all that well, he misplayed that defense a lot but the build was just not good to begin with.
I feel like if Dark just calms down and plays normally he'll be fine.
Dark's aggressive builds are a double-edged sword. You gotta take the easy wins alongside the ??? losses
On February 12 2023 04:50 dysenterymd wrote: I think the probe pull made sense at first because there were lots of lings, but keeping them off the line once the lings were gone was silly.
Good thing Creator pulled it out anyways.
I feel like it helped as the only way he loses there is if the ravages get all the shield batteries and the probes helped him defend them. He would probably hold regardless, but I still applaud the decision.
I agree, I think Creator did well to identify just how committed Dark was. If it had been me, I would have just assumed the Zerg had an extra base and double the Drones and done something stupid and desperate.
On February 12 2023 04:54 Die4Ever wrote: man I love Creator, but if this really is Dark's last tournament then I want him to get farther
Who are we saying goodbye to this weekend?
I imagine Cure has played his last match yesterday, Time is apparently on his way out, Dark too. Bunny should received his drafting letter soon too I think?
On February 12 2023 05:02 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I'd never seen a Resonating Glaives timing this late before, and I suspect I won't see another for a while.
Coward. You're just brave enough to embrace the 3 base max saturation Glaive Adept timing! /s
On February 12 2023 05:02 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I'd never seen a Resonating Glaives timing this late before, and I suspect I won't see another for a while.
On February 12 2023 05:02 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I'd never seen a Resonating Glaives timing this late before, and I suspect I won't see another for a while.
Coward. You're just brave enough to embrace the 3 base max saturation Glaive Adept timing! /s
If I want to shrug and go with a dumb all-in, I will always stick with the Korean-Style 4 Warpgate All-In. Even if it hasn't been viable in three expansions .
Bleh, Creator is supposedly the second best Protoss in Korea right now? Dark is throwing as hard as possible for him and it's still a series. Can you imagine how hard he'd be getting smashed against prime Stats? This is why you can't dismiss the Zerg talent pool differential, especially for toss.
I've literally never seen Dark this shook. If he wins here, hopefully he gets his head together before he faces herO. (needless to say the "I hope he keeps it together" applies to every Creator match)
On February 12 2023 05:06 Glorfindelio wrote: Bleh, Creator is supposedly the second best Protoss in Korea right now? Dark is throwing as hard as possible for him and it's still a series. Can you imagine how hard he'd be getting smashed against prime Stats? This is why you can't dismiss the Zerg talent pool differential, especially for toss.
Creator is NOT the second best Protoss in Korea.
He's in these playoffs because the Groups were totally imbalanced during the group stages and he had a very easy draw where he played mostly PvP to qualify for the playoffs.
herO is the best in Korea, and with Zoun leaving to the military soon, Classic is probably second.
On February 12 2023 05:06 Glorfindelio wrote: Bleh, Creator is supposedly the second best Protoss in Korea right now? Dark is throwing as hard as possible for him and it's still a series. Can you imagine how hard he'd be getting smashed against prime Stats? This is why you can't dismiss the Zerg talent pool differential, especially for toss.
Strong agree. I miss Stats, Trap, Zest, Dear and the gang. Heck, even primetime Neeb.
I wonder IF they tourney would look any different if MaxPax was here.
On February 12 2023 05:07 Waxangel wrote: I've literally never seen Dark this shook. If he wins here, hopefully he gets his head together before he faces herO. (needless to say the "I hope he keeps it together" applies to every Creator match)
On February 12 2023 05:06 Glorfindelio wrote: Bleh, Creator is supposedly the second best Protoss in Korea right now? Dark is throwing as hard as possible for him and it's still a series. Can you imagine how hard he'd be getting smashed against prime Stats? This is why you can't dismiss the Zerg talent pool differential, especially for toss.
Creator is NOT the second best Protoss in Korea.
He's in these playoffs because the Groups were totally imbalanced during the group stages and he had a very easy draw where he played mostly PvP to qualify for the playoffs.
herO is the best in Korea, and with Zoun leaving to the military soon, Classic is probably second.
By recent Performance it Probably is creator i think.
On February 12 2023 05:07 Waxangel wrote: I've literally never seen Dark this shook. If he wins here, hopefully he gets his head together before he faces herO. (needless to say the "I hope he keeps it together" applies to every Creator match)
On February 12 2023 05:06 Glorfindelio wrote: Bleh, Creator is supposedly the second best Protoss in Korea right now? Dark is throwing as hard as possible for him and it's still a series. Can you imagine how hard he'd be getting smashed against prime Stats? This is why you can't dismiss the Zerg talent pool differential, especially for toss.
Strong agree. I miss Stats, Trap, Zest, Dear and the gang. Heck, even primetime Neeb.
I wonder IF they tourney would look any different if MaxPax was here.
Protoss wasn't doing much better when all those players were still around.
On February 12 2023 05:02 starkiller123 wrote: I swear adepts are so useless lol
They're kinda like Reapers. They're very useful, very briefly.
IMO the main reason adept allins can feel shitty is it's just a better probability coinflip in the matchup for zerg to make a few units and have to drone later. being late on drones still has lots of play for Z since you can force a lot of defensive attention with midgame lings even if you didn't necessarily need them, and a full round of drones catches you up pretty quickly
On February 12 2023 05:06 Glorfindelio wrote: Bleh, Creator is supposedly the second best Protoss in Korea right now? Dark is throwing as hard as possible for him and it's still a series. Can you imagine how hard he'd be getting smashed against prime Stats? This is why you can't dismiss the Zerg talent pool differential, especially for toss.
Strong agree. I miss Stats, Trap, Zest, Dear and the gang. Heck, even primetime Neeb.
I wonder IF they tourney would look any different if MaxPax was here.
Protoss wasn't doing much better when all those players were still around.
Only if you count golds. Stats and Zest spent a few years playing the runner up to rogue-serral-reynor-dark-solar et al.
On February 12 2023 05:06 Glorfindelio wrote: Bleh, Creator is supposedly the second best Protoss in Korea right now? Dark is throwing as hard as possible for him and it's still a series. Can you imagine how hard he'd be getting smashed against prime Stats? This is why you can't dismiss the Zerg talent pool differential, especially for toss.
Strong agree. I miss Stats, Trap, Zest, Dear and the gang. Heck, even primetime Neeb.
I wonder IF they tourney would look any different if MaxPax was here.
Protoss wasn't doing much better when all those players were still around.
Only if you count golds. Stats and Zest spent a few years playing the runner up to rogue-serral-reynor-dark-solar et al.
All of them were still around for all of 2020 where Trap was the only Toss with any major success (mostly silvers). That's also around the time Toss started to regularly miss premier top 8s.
For what its worth. Dark played in the first games of the day and Creator played in the second and that was 10 hours ago. It could just be that these guys were exhausted by this point in the night. That could also very easily explain what we saw in those games.
Poor creator, breaking down like that. But yeah he should have atacked earlier. Was an amazing series. I expected a storm, and creator almost won, he even could have won the last game. One thing I'd like to change is that when a recall is cancelled due to nexus dying, it still enters cooldown, it wouldn't have mattered in this game, but it should be changed imo.
Creator didn't even GG. He was crying and screaming until his last building was destroyed
Sad for Creator, it was really close. I really hope Dark bounces back from this though, he must be kicking himself after that performance. The emotional weight of the last pre-military tourney is really heavy huh
On February 12 2023 05:24 Vindicare605 wrote: For what its worth. Dark played in the first games of the day and Creator played in the second and that was 10 hours ago. It could just be that these guys were exhausted by this point in the night. That could also very easily explain what we saw in those games.
this schedule is pretty rough, and tomorrow doesn't seem any better, maybe even worse
On February 12 2023 05:24 Vindicare605 wrote: For what its worth. Dark played in the first games of the day and Creator played in the second and that was 10 hours ago. It could just be that these guys were exhausted by this point in the night. That could also very easily explain what we saw in those games.
yeh they should have played the RO12 bracket out of order imo, prioritize the ppl who had the earlier RO24 matches
1000 people in twitch chat brutally mocking creator as a "crybaby" for showing emotion, meanwhile someone mocked those people back and got timed out of the chat for it. not sure about that lol
On February 12 2023 05:25 moonsjde wrote: 1000 people in twitch chat brutally mocking creator as a "crybaby" for showing emotion, meanwhile someone mocked those people back and got timed out of the chat for it. not sure about that lol
Twitchchat moronic as ever. /shrug
Pride and glory and everything aside, it was a minimum $10,000 failed recall too. I'd have the same reaction.
On February 12 2023 05:24 Vindicare605 wrote: For what its worth. Dark played in the first games of the day and Creator played in the second and that was 10 hours ago. It could just be that these guys were exhausted by this point in the night. That could also very easily explain what we saw in those games.
yeh they should have played the RO12 bracket out of order imo, prioritize the ppl who had the earlier RO24 matches
saves them a couple of hours
Just one more suggestion to send to ESL's suggestion box... if they had one.
On February 12 2023 05:24 Waxangel wrote: My caster spin: the mistakes and tilts make these high-stakes matches feel more "real"
Wait a sec, maybe I actually believe this...
in this case, I think it really brought out the emotions in this match, this match/tournament was so important to both players, especially once they got to game 5
On February 12 2023 05:24 Vindicare605 wrote: For what its worth. Dark played in the first games of the day and Creator played in the second and that was 10 hours ago. It could just be that these guys were exhausted by this point in the night. That could also very easily explain what we saw in those games.
yeh they should have played the RO12 bracket out of order imo, prioritize the ppl who had the earlier RO24 matches
saves them a couple of hours
Just one more suggestion to send to ESL's suggestion box... if they had one.
u know they post a feedback survey after every dreamhack tournament for like 3 years now
Thinking about it a little - I think Creator's miscalculation came from the beginning of the base trade.
Those lings didn't have adrenal glands when Dark countered, so Creator saw how fast they were killing stuff at the start and shifted his focus to his army/attack.
Realizes he needs to recall but doesn't account for how quick the lings would kill his base because he thought they weren't cracklings.
On February 12 2023 05:25 moonsjde wrote: 1000 people in twitch chat brutally mocking creator as a "crybaby" for showing emotion, meanwhile someone mocked those people back and got timed out of the chat for it. not sure about that lol
Twitchchat moronic as ever. /shrug
twitch chat is always dumb, but dehumanizing someone for having emotion invested into what they do is worse and dumber than the standard fare of balance whining or spamming memes, so it's worth criticizing IMO /shrug
On February 12 2023 05:25 moonsjde wrote: 1000 people in twitch chat brutally mocking creator as a "crybaby" for showing emotion, meanwhile someone mocked those people back and got timed out of the chat for it. not sure about that lol
Just rewatched the last seconds of the game and Creator's cam, don't remember seeing anyone getting so openly emotional after a loss. That was truly crushing and heartbreaking. Hope the guy can overcome that harsh loss.
On February 12 2023 05:24 Vindicare605 wrote: For what its worth. Dark played in the first games of the day and Creator played in the second and that was 10 hours ago. It could just be that these guys were exhausted by this point in the night. That could also very easily explain what we saw in those games.
yeh they should have played the RO12 bracket out of order imo, prioritize the ppl who had the earlier RO24 matches
saves them a couple of hours
Just one more suggestion to send to ESL's suggestion box... if they had one.
u know they post a feedback survey after every dreamhack tournament for like 3 years now
I don't think they read it. Nothing has changed with CS:GO or SC2. At least nothing I can see.
On February 12 2023 05:25 moonsjde wrote: 1000 people in twitch chat brutally mocking creator as a "crybaby" for showing emotion, meanwhile someone mocked those people back and got timed out of the chat for it. not sure about that lol
That, and better stream quality is why I watch on youtube.
On February 12 2023 05:25 moonsjde wrote: 1000 people in twitch chat brutally mocking creator as a "crybaby" for showing emotion, meanwhile someone mocked those people back and got timed out of the chat for it. not sure about that lol
Twitchchat moronic as ever. /shrug
twitch chat is always dumb, but dehumanizing someone for having emotion invested into what they do is worse and dumber than the standard fare of balance whining or spamming memes, so it's worth criticizing IMO /shrug
So glad this tournament has finally been streamed on youtube.
On February 12 2023 05:25 moonsjde wrote: 1000 people in twitch chat brutally mocking creator as a "crybaby" for showing emotion, meanwhile someone mocked those people back and got timed out of the chat for it. not sure about that lol
That, and better stream quality is why I watch on youtube.
On February 12 2023 05:25 moonsjde wrote: 1000 people in twitch chat brutally mocking creator as a "crybaby" for showing emotion, meanwhile someone mocked those people back and got timed out of the chat for it. not sure about that lol
That, and better stream quality is why I watch on youtube.
Nobody likes people complaining all the time
True fans watch the twitch stream directly on TL like me
Heartbreaking for creator be he panicked/failed to plan out the base trade. Wall off he attempted wasn’t a full wall, didn’t bring any probes with his army and mistimed/misplaced the recall.
Don’t think Dark is beating hero if he plays like he did today.
On February 12 2023 05:30 [PkF] Wire wrote: Just rewatched the last seconds of the game and Creator's cam, don't remember seeing anyone getting so openly emotional after a loss. That was truly crushing and heartbreaking. Hope the guy can overcome that harsh loss.
Instantly reminded me of that old HURT - SC2 video. Hits hard.
That was some great footage created by Mr. Creator. I feel bad that every time watching creator play, I want him to lose in the closest fashion, having given hope just to be crushed in the end.
On February 12 2023 05:35 mintyminmus wrote: That was some great footage created by Mr. Creator. I feel bad that every time watching creator play, I want him to lose in the closest fashion, having given hope just to be crushed in the end.
Honestly was wondering if we'd get a 2017-esque moment where the camera lingered on despair-ByuN a little too long and people got uncomfortable about it
On February 12 2023 05:40 Waxangel wrote: Honestly was wondering if we'd get a 2017-esque moment where the camera lingered on despair-ByuN a little too long and people got uncomfortable about it
Apparently there was big drama about this kind of stuff at last year's LoL Worlds event, where the camera just kept focused on a crying SKT player for a ridiculously long time instead of filming the champions
On February 12 2023 05:40 Waxangel wrote: Honestly was wondering if we'd get a 2017-esque moment where the camera lingered on despair-ByuN a little too long and people got uncomfortable about it
Apparently there was big drama about this kind of stuff at last year's LoL Worlds event, where the camera just kept focused on a crying SKT player for a ridiculously long time instead of filming the champions
Yah I saw!
I've generally been on the side of "you sign up for this when you become a public figure," but I understand why some people don't want that as part of their entertainment.
I feel for Creator, after getting so close to winning. But Dark is the better player in the end. Furthermore, Creator would have little chance against herO. Though I do want more Protoss representation in ro8.
On February 12 2023 05:22 [PkF] Wire wrote: Poor Creator. Those close ups are devastatingly heartbreaking
He stood head in his hands for a long time before they showed him as well, even more heartbreaking live. Before the gg we heard his scream despite the noise
On February 12 2023 05:40 Waxangel wrote: Honestly was wondering if we'd get a 2017-esque moment where the camera lingered on despair-ByuN a little too long and people got uncomfortable about it
Apparently there was big drama about this kind of stuff at last year's LoL Worlds event, where the camera just kept focused on a crying SKT player for a ridiculously long time instead of filming the champions
Yah I saw!
I've generally been on the side of "you sign up for this when you become a public figure," but I understand why some people don't want that as part of their entertainment.
Yeah I don't think there's anything "morally" wrong about focusing on players showing emotions, because in the end it gets peoples' attention. But I just think it's a poor production choice when it takes away that said attention from the winning side. Like this Dark vs Creator match? Dark didn't particularly pull off anything insane to clutch out the victory so it's understandable that Creator's devastating loss was more relevant. It just feels wrong when there's a huge storyline behind the winner's victory and the crew's like hold up we got a tearjerker in the other booth
On February 12 2023 05:25 moonsjde wrote: 1000 people in twitch chat brutally mocking creator as a "crybaby" for showing emotion, meanwhile someone mocked those people back and got timed out of the chat for it. not sure about that lol
That, and better stream quality is why I watch on youtube.
RIP Creator. Thought he would take game 4 near the start but that adept attack was strange... We have a toss in the ro8 this year, let's go herO! I think Dark is going to need to play better than today to advance.
I think Barrier is a really boring ability and enjoyed Hardened Shields better, but if you're worried about it being prematurely triggered like that, you can just take it off autocast.
It has not been possible to manual cast barrier for a very long time. About five or six years I think.
I think Barrier is a really boring ability and enjoyed Hardened Shields better, but if you're worried about it being prematurely triggered like that, you can just take it off autocast.
It has not been possible to manual cast barrier for a very long time. About five or six years I think.
Well, my bad. Never did it back when it was possible anyway.
Hmm since I don't play protoss im curious, was there any realistic way for Creator to win by pushing at the end of g5?
The casters narrative is that the failed recall led to him losing, but I think the game was probably decided much before that right?
If he did recall in time to save his main, what would allow Creator to ever leave his main base and force a fight at Dark's bases? If he left, some cracklings would bust down any door Creator tried to make at his ramp, and he'd still lose a base trade. He also couldn't rebuild and go for a macro game, because he had like ~10 probes vs Dark's 50 and Dark still had a new base aside from his main and natural.
And in order for Creator to have killed those 2 bases that he did, he had to sac his third and nat. Maybe his nat could have been saved if he walled off sooner and had a sentry and a few adepts or stalkers and a battery overcharge, or if he recalled 1 colossus. Maybe he could have saved his third for a bit longer if he recalled 2 archons and had a battery.
But even then, let's say he could defend his 3 bases and still attack. I'm not sure if Creator's army was actually that strong? He had 2 colossus which is good, and 4 archons to help with splash, but that's kind of it. A decent ling surround would dwindle his army down to no longer be a deathball, and with his 50 drones he could have still mustered out another 50 lings at his main/natural and probably at least even'd the game out.
So i wonder if Creator ever could have made that attack in the first place, if it meant Dark would just counterattack and kill everything. Was it all a miscalculation cus he didn't know Dark would have adrenal glands? If a zerg does get adrenal glands then how would you defend if you decide to move out?
Of course, losing those 2-3 Oracles to the biles was huge... I guess if they were still alive, he could have defended his nat wall vs those lings, and perhaps saved his third especially with an archon and battery.
Great series either way, i dont mind sloppy play at all because stress and mistakes are all part of it. I think it makes for more entertaining games in a lot of ways because it's less about perfect strategy and execution, and more about trying to put out fires all over (more like BW). I'm really liking the Katowice games so far, the new maps help, and the maps being a little more creative and different than normal is great too, and ofc the players not figuring out the maps/patch out yet. It's really too bad Creator didn't advance, i was really hoping he would, but oh well. He definitely did good overall and I hope he does well next GSL!
On February 12 2023 11:10 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Hmm since I don't play protoss im curious, was there any realistic way for Creator to win by pushing at the end of g5?
The casters narrative is that the failed recall led to him losing, but I think the game was probably decided much before that right?
If he did recall in time to save his main, what would allow Creator to ever leave his main base and force a fight at Dark's bases? If he left, some cracklings would bust down any door Creator tried to make at his ramp, and he'd still lose a base trade. He also couldn't rebuild and go for a macro game, because he had like ~10 probes vs Dark's 50 and Dark still had a new base aside from his main and natural.
And in order for Creator to have killed those 2 bases that he did, he had to sac his third and nat. Maybe his nat could have been saved if he walled off sooner and had a sentry and a few adepts or stalkers and a battery overcharge, or if he recalled 1 colossus. Maybe he could have saved his third for a bit longer if he recalled 2 archons and had a battery.
But even then, let's say he could defend his 3 bases and still attack. I'm not sure if Creator's army was actually that strong? He had 2 colossus which is good, and 4 archons to help with splash, but that's kind of it. A decent ling surround would dwindle his army down to no longer be a deathball, and with his 50 drones he could have still mustered out another 50 lings at his main/natural and probably at least even'd the game out.
So i wonder if Creator ever could have made that attack in the first place, if it meant Dark would just counterattack and kill everything. Was it all a miscalculation cus he didn't know Dark would have adrenal glands? If a zerg does get adrenal glands then how would you defend if you decide to move out?
Of course, losing those 2-3 Oracles to the biles was huge... I guess if they were still alive, he could have defended his nat wall vs those lings, and perhaps saved his third especially with an archon and battery.
Great series either way, i dont mind sloppy play at all because stress and mistakes are all part of it. I think it makes for more entertaining games in a lot of ways because it's less about perfect strategy and execution, and more about trying to put out fires all over (more like BW). I'm really liking the Katowice games so far, the new maps help, and the maps being a little more creative and different than normal is great too, and ofc the players not figuring out the maps/patch out yet. It's really too bad Creator didn't advance, i was really hoping he would, but oh well. He definitely did good overall and I hope he does well next GSL!
Here’s the answer for a good question / post
Realistically even if creator recall back, he would have lost the game due to no income/base. Dark still had drones and bases to mine from. Also creator recalled to little army. Crackling will rekt that within seconds
Creator still had an army supply of 90ish while dark had 110ish
It’s never a good feeling to lose a game when you still have a “fightable” army, since all creator needed was dark to screw up one engagement
Honestly, I am so glad we have youtube stream in addition to twitch stream. Twitch makes it very hard to find past broadcasts without being spammed with all of the rerun broadcasts.
Yeah Creator likely lost the game anyway. Dark could run just around with 100 lings forever.
But still, elimination losses are the hardest. Being knocked out while you still have a standing army hurts a hell of a lot more than just losing a fight and resigning.
I think what really lost Creator the game was losing his Oracles to biles. From that point, he was playing blind and also lost his main harassment tool. Dark took full advantage of that and just as Creator would have wanted to push, Dark stalled him with small attacks that Creator amoved his army to stop. Then when Creator pulled the trigger it was kinda too late, because Dark had finished his hive, had his first vipers and had the crackling upgrade on the way. Creator had to hit a timing and he missed it.
EPT
IEM Katowice/2023
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/EPT/Katowice2023/encommentators2.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/EPT/Katowice2023/ro24groups_4.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/EPT/Katowice2023/ro12bracket_empty.png)
(but zerg has the worst so this Queen Thing for Sure is a one Off)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/f5V6Vln.gif)
![[image loading]](https://external-preview.redd.it/yOshbonLHsmo--BazvK5KMLWEqUPojTFQlMZlAWTkYc.jpg?auto=webp&v=enabled&s=173109075c66eaafb914021e166a3f16b586552a)
