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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
On July 04 2022 05:48 Elentos wrote: But we will never get sick of Dark handicapping himself with bad openings. If the bad opening is a proxy hatch Spine rush, I will never get tired of it. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4941 Posts
On July 04 2022 07:24 TheLordofAwesome wrote: I think Dark came much better prepared to the finals than Maru did. Will be very interesting to see what happens in GSL when both have equal preparation time (and Maru won't have just revealed a lot about his style by playing Reynor) of course he was more prepared.. he had the luxury to sit and watch Maru and Reynor TvZ for a spot in the finals vs him. whereas maru had less time overall and played 2 big bo5+ back to back TvZ. One of the problems of either toss or Terran atm is the sheer amount of your XvZ play you need to show constantly.. whereas Dark played a Bo3 vs Special as a single ZvT in the groups... not much data Maru could look at to prepare and less time to do so. | ||
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tigera6
3397 Posts
On July 04 2022 23:47 Argonauta wrote: of course he was more prepared.. he had the luxury to sit and watch Maru and Reynor TvZ for a spot in the finals vs him. whereas maru had less time overall and played 2 big bo5+ back to back TvZ. One of the problems of either toss or Terran atm is the sheer amount of your XvZ play you need to show constantly.. whereas Dark played a Bo3 vs Special as a single ZvT in the groups... not much data Maru could look at to prepare and less time to do so. Also want to point out that Maru probably doesnt practice much on this current map pool while doing preparation during GSL, and I really thought he got that game 7 in the bag when Dark took that backside base, 1-2 tanks, 1-2 Medivac with 10-15 Marines will be a nightmare for Dark to deal with at the choke, could have completely broke that base. But oh well, at least we probably going to have a very good GSL Final to look forward to. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15957 Posts
On July 05 2022 00:57 Pandain wrote: As an aside, is it just a given now that Maxpax will never come to an offline tournament? I was hoping the first time was just an outlier but it looks like this is more permanent Nobody knows | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25270 Posts
On July 04 2022 06:50 [PkF] Wire wrote: It's a good argument. Of course we can have surprises and I'm all for another surprise winner, Cure's victory was very heartwarming I felt. But imo it's hard not to consider Maru / herO / Dark the huge favorites so that's my stance (Zest-Cure in 2021 S3 relied a lot on the bracket though, you had Rogue - Dark and Trap - Maru in the ro8 while dark horses played together (Zest - Dream and Cure - Parting). Zest still had to beat Rogue 4-3 and that was a huge performance, but if he had played like Rogue in ro8 and then Dark he probably never gets to the finals. But I agree we can get strange things like that this season, let's say Ragnarok wins his ZvZ and ends first, then Dark can potentially meet herO before the semis for instance) herO’s great, I’m enjoying his work greatly. I still have that nagging suspicion that he’s been developing a very stylistic approach to PvZ upon his return, and now that he looks a premier calibre player rather than an improving/weekly hoovering one, he’s on Dark and Rogue’s radar and they’ll find holes in it. I hope it’s a viable approach as it’s a hell of a lot of fun compared to well, 99% of PvZ metas in the game’s lifespan. His PvP is top notch, which helps you not lose GSLs more so than win them. His PvT is very good, if a little sloppier than Trap’s at his best. He looks the best current shot for sure, unless Creator’s Renaissance keeps up. It would be a nice contrast in styles too, herO’s hyper aggression and Creator’s more sedate and solid straight macro. But I don’t think they’ve got a better shot than a Trap who was perennially winning things and Zest who could seemingly make the final of anything no matter how bad his form. That 2021 S3 I wouldn’t go as far to use the word choke, but that was a two way botch from both Zest and Trap to end the Protoss curse. Just one of the two had to bring their A game against Cure You basically need an early elimination or a favourable bracket to avoid WombaT’s LawTM. I just can’t see any Protoss taking down both Rogue and Dark in a playoff run in GSL. Argh, the pain of it all, still it was nice to see Cure get his big win. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25270 Posts
On July 04 2022 23:47 Argonauta wrote: of course he was more prepared.. he had the luxury to sit and watch Maru and Reynor TvZ for a spot in the finals vs him. whereas maru had less time overall and played 2 big bo5+ back to back TvZ. One of the problems of either toss or Terran atm is the sheer amount of your XvZ play you need to show constantly.. whereas Dark played a Bo3 vs Special as a single ZvT in the groups... not much data Maru could look at to prepare and less time to do so. Just general prep, Dark seemed to have a few tricks up his sleeve based around these maps, he seems really au fait with them. Maru proxy raxing on a map with a backdoor expo seemed, questionable. Although it could be a sign of prep mindgaming where he pulled it out precisely because it’s not a great map for it. He just does odd, frankly baffling things that can be interpreted as either bad prep or mixing it up/mindgames, at least once every big weekend tournament, less so in GSL. I still wake up screaming in a cold sweat at least once a fortnight from the period he decided not to veto Pride of Altaris and got absolutely rinsed in a weekender by (iirc Serral?). Then decided to test his mettle on it in GSL and it took Armani throwing the game for him not to drop that set. He wasn’t the only one this tourney to be fair, herO took a really odd, counter-productive expansion pattern for his style and Dark punished him ruthlessly for it. The kind of thing you do on ladder when it’s day one of a new season and you just dive in to play without studying the maps. Anyway, when you get to a slugfest between these guys in TvZ it’s less build prep and more the multitude of tactical jukes and manouvering people do. It’s bloody tough running the gauntlet, but whenever it’s Maru versus any of the big 4 I find it really tends to be who executes and plays better on the day. That or Rogue builds roaches every set. Unlike say Zest’s Katowice runs where it’s ‘how do you like my new build I cooked up?’ stomping Zerg face until he hits the brick wall of ‘oh yeah I’ve seen your build’ I don’t think Dark took all that much from Reynor’s games, he just plays the matchup differently anyway. It’s just extremely difficult to play at basically your absolute peak form with an incredibly technically demanding style multiple times in a row. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On July 05 2022 10:45 WombaT wrote: Just general prep, Dark seemed to have a few tricks up his sleeve based around these maps, he seems really au fait with them. Maru proxy raxing on a map with a backdoor expo seemed, questionable. Although it could be a sign of prep mindgaming where he pulled it out precisely because it’s not a great map for it. It still doesn't make sense to do it. Best case scenario zerg can just take the backdoor and be ahead. It's doesn't seem like an "It works precisely because it's not expected", it's seems like an "It can't actually work because the zerg can expand anyway". Maru definitely just has a habit to 2 rax in those moments. He's played seven game 7s in LotV and 2 raxed in four of them (including the last 3). | ||
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aringadingding
476 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25270 Posts
On July 05 2022 21:06 Fango wrote: It still doesn't make sense to do it. Best case scenario zerg can just take the backdoor and be ahead. It's doesn't seem like an "It works precisely because it's not expected", it's seems like an "It can't actually work because the zerg can expand anyway". Maru definitely just has a habit to 2 rax in those moments. He's played seven game 7s in LotV and 2 raxed in four of them (including the last 3). I was feeling generous, for all of Maru’s mechanical and tactical brilliance he makes some really odd choices in set planning. For odd read well, bad. For me it’s really that thin, thin line between him having a WC and a bunch of international tournaments, or not. Far more so than jet lag/the stars being in the wrong alignment or various other theories that exist. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25270 Posts
On July 06 2022 02:22 aringadingding wrote: My favorite part from this tourney was Creator´s happiness when he won. He is one passionate dude! It sometimes is fun to see players being beast and also robots, but there is, and has been, enough of those kind of players... so Creator is refreshing in that sense Creator, when he surrounded and wiped Neeb’s army looked like he was charging his power level like a Dragonball Z character. So good, love to see it. So many great characters over the years in the scene, you don’t have to be a BM asshole to have a personality. | ||
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buzz_bender
445 Posts
On July 06 2022 02:30 WombaT wrote: I was feeling generous, for all of Maru’s mechanical and tactical brilliance he makes some really odd choices in set planning. For odd read well, bad. For me, I just think that he was exhausted after playing three series, esp after the series against Reynor. (Mistakes creeping into his play compared to his series against Reynor, which I thought he played impeccably) I mentioned elsehwere that they prob should have played the Ro8 the day before, and use the last day for Semis and the Finals. As it is, Dark and Maru had to play three series on the last day, and Maru's series was also the last of the Ro8 to be played, so he had a lot less rest than Dark. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25270 Posts
On July 06 2022 10:16 buzz_bender wrote: For me, I just think that he was exhausted after playing three series, esp after the series against Reynor. (Mistakes creeping into his play compared to his series against Reynor, which I thought he played impeccably) I mentioned elsehwere that they prob should have played the Ro8 the day before, and use the last day for Semis and the Finals. As it is, Dark and Maru had to play three series on the last day, and Maru's series was also the last of the Ro8 to be played, so he had a lot less rest than Dark. I do agree the schedule wasn’t ideal. Reynor’s style is to to impeccably read and defend, drone to like a ridiculous number and win on eco. Which gives Maru a bit of space to play his lategame. Where he invariably wins. Reynor could do with tweaking that vs Maru specifically. Dark doesn’t do that, he drones to a decent amount and if he sniffs blood he’ll just go and kill you in the midgame. When Serral’s beaten Maru in relatively recent times he’s done the same thing. Rogue roached him to death in their GSL final These players are basically as good as Maru, he’ll win some he’ll lose some. Especially if his planning isn’t right. His (genera) plan is get to lategame I’ll just outplay my opponents. His opponents have plans to deal with that, but also plans to just kill him before he gets there Dark just killed him, indeed he basically threw the 2 hatch muta game, could have been smoother. Maru in full flight is a beautiful, beautiful thing but he got outthought and outplayed, simple as. Wasn’t tiredness, wasn’t jetlag, wasn’t his star sign being out of alignment. | ||
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tigera6
3397 Posts
On July 06 2022 11:00 WombaT wrote: I do agree the schedule wasn’t ideal. Reynor’s style is to to impeccably read and defend, drone to like a ridiculous number and win on eco. Which gives Maru a bit of space to play his lategame. Where he invariably wins. Reynor could do with tweaking that vs Maru specifically. Dark doesn’t do that, he drones to a decent amount and if he sniffs blood he’ll just go and kill you in the midgame. When Serral’s beaten Maru in relatively recent times he’s done the same thing. Rogue roached him to death in their GSL final These players are basically as good as Maru, he’ll win some he’ll lose some. Especially if his planning isn’t right. His (genera) plan is get to lategame I’ll just outplay my opponents. His opponents have plans to deal with that, but also plans to just kill him before he gets there Dark just killed him, indeed he basically threw the 2 hatch muta game, could have been smoother. Maru in full flight is a beautiful, beautiful thing but he got outthought and outplayed, simple as. Wasn’t tiredness, wasn’t jetlag, wasn’t his star sign being out of alignment. Dark went full greed with his build, like early double evol, delay Lair and Bane Speed, then just keep massing lingbane and start crashing every where. Maru couldnt play his normal style into lategame against that because he will die, he should have put down the double Factory and making Mines/Tank non-stop as soon as he see that build. OR he can do the 2-base pressure all-in push that he did in game 6 to punish Dark greediness. So yeah, that was a tactical blunder from Maru, I thought he must have known how to deal with it by now given how Serral and Rogue already used that against him previously, evidently he hasnt. Going for Mech isnt a bad choice though, and I thought Maru could have won the game in Data-C (the big map) when he pushed all the way to the outside of Dark natural, but he was missing a bit more force to push in. From my view, Reynor is somehow trying to prove that he can beat Maru in lategame straight up, like how Serral did in KoB2 Final, and that hasnt worked for him. Either he need to copy the other Zerg build, or tell Maru that lets play PvP next time. | ||
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
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Poopi
France12874 Posts
On July 06 2022 12:10 tskarzyn wrote: So tired of Maru bringing weak builds... It's almost like he enjoys putting himself in a whole and grinding out a 35 minute war of attrition. Dark played well of course, and he has been a victim of the same syndrome in the past. I doubt there is any particularly powerful build in TvZ though? Even against soO who wasn’t prepared for the double facto hellbat build it was barely enough to do game ending damage. Versus Reynor who was able to scout it it was meh but maybe Reynor thought Maru was going mech because otherwise the roach ravager stuff was hopeful. 2 rax could be decent on some maps but it’s been a long time since it is a deadly build | ||
Waxangel
United States33388 Posts
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
On July 07 2022 03:43 Waxangel wrote: I was looking back at the VOD, and the top of the DreamHack trophy actaully goes flying into the audience when Dark lifts it, and someone has to retrieve it and give it back to him https://clips.twitch.tv/RepleteSmellyNeanderthalVoteYea-WS6s6jsikWXvtoQz Classic Dramhack | ||
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Stanleyknife
1 Post
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pandorasheep
73 Posts
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