EPT![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/EPT/Fall2021/fallfinalsbracket.png)
DreamHack 2021 Fall Season Finals
DHM Fall Season Finals - Playoffs
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments |
|
[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
DreamHack 2021 Fall Season Finals | ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
| ||
|
Weavel
Finland9222 Posts
| ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
On September 11 2021 23:42 Weavel wrote: Didn't expect TIME to do this well against Bunny. neither did I. Bunnjwa is having a rough time ! | ||
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
| ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
On September 12 2021 00:08 Nakajin wrote: Time never seems to be able to close his matches I missed the last two games, how did Bunny turn it around ? Whatever happened, it's true TIME has often been on the verge of a big performance and rarely could give the killing blow. Rather tough. | ||
|
geokilla
Canada8245 Posts
| ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On September 12 2021 00:54 geokilla wrote: That was the biggest of Gabes indeed. Lol... Hope the next games will be more exciting. | ||
|
dysenterymd
1250 Posts
| ||
|
geokilla
Canada8245 Posts
| ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
| ||
|
tigera6
3482 Posts
| ||
|
Sent.
Poland9289 Posts
Aaah didn't matter anyway | ||
|
Weavel
Finland9222 Posts
| ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
| ||
|
geokilla
Canada8245 Posts
| ||
|
Kreuger
Sweden845 Posts
| ||
|
jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
On September 12 2021 01:29 [PkF] Wire wrote: Serral HM is one of the most one-sided high level match-ups honestly. It seems like Gabe can't do anything vs Serral HM not even in the same league he got spanked T___T | ||
|
Moonerz
United States461 Posts
| ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
| ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On September 12 2021 01:29 [PkF] Wire wrote: Serral HM is one of the most one-sided high level match-ups honestly. It seems like Gabe can't do anything vs Serral I think it's a mental block for him at this moment. Of course Serral is better than him but he should be doing better than him than he currently does | ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On September 12 2021 01:29 jpg06051992 wrote: HM not even in the same league he got spanked T___T He's just not as good in TvZ sadly... I think he's not fast enough. He's great at macro & timing attacks, but TvZ requires a lot of quick micro. Clem is just on another level compared to Heromarine in TvZ and that's been the case since a long while. | ||
|
tigera6
3482 Posts
| ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
On September 12 2021 01:31 Charoisaur wrote: I think it's a mental block for him at this moment. Of course Serral is better than him but he should be doing better than him than he currently does yeah it definitely plays a role. The upcoming mu is so hard to predict. It can be 3-0 either way honestly and everything in between. | ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
| ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
| ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
| ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
 | ||
|
Durnuu
13322 Posts
| ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
On September 12 2021 02:19 Durnuu wrote: Nice upgrades scrubs Clem often finds himself in those atypical low upgrades (and sometimes low eco) games vs Korean Protosses, his aggro playstyle must naturally lead up to those | ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
darklycid
3541 Posts
| ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
| ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
On September 12 2021 02:22 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Whoah, that turned around dramatically. yeah, Clem looked like he was running away with the game rather easily in fact, but all the little things went wrong once the infamous "easy tools" (DTs and disruptors) kicked in | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On September 12 2021 02:23 [PkF] Wire wrote: yeah, Clem looked like he was running away with the game rather easily in fact, but all the little things went wrong once the infamous "easy tools" (DTs and disruptors) kicked in Not to mention "the ability to hit air units". | ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
| ||
|
darklycid
3541 Posts
| ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
| ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
| ||
|
geokilla
Canada8245 Posts
| ||
|
darklycid
3541 Posts
| ||
|
HeroSandro
535 Posts
| ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12911 Posts
 poor Clem | ||
|
geokilla
Canada8245 Posts
On September 12 2021 02:54 Poopi wrote: Serral just won the event, gg! poor ClemDark and Trap can win vs Serral | ||
|
geokilla
Canada8245 Posts
| ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
Not sure about Trap, but Bunny also get good chance based on his results in GSL Group recently. Dark may not prepare hard in ZvZ against Serral since he has to hide builds against Rogue this Monday. | ||
|
tigera6
3482 Posts
| ||
|
Shathe
Hungary422 Posts
| ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On September 12 2021 02:56 geokilla wrote: Why isn’t the interview in English? While we would like it, I think it makes sense to use the translator and have him speak korean so that the korean fans (that can't speak english, but I think most can?) can understand some of it as well. | ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
| ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
| ||
|
darklycid
3541 Posts
On September 12 2021 03:09 sudete wrote: This is probably Serral's best chance all year, seeing as he gets to dodge both Clem and Reynor and only has to play against one strong opponent in the final. Getting Heromarine and Bunny in the QF and SF is honestly one of the easiest brackets in recent memory for a premier tourney. Bunny has improved massively recently i'm hopeful for a good series. | ||
|
tigera6
3482 Posts
On September 12 2021 02:59 Shathe wrote: Shouldn't terran go marauder openers vs Parting? As he goes stalkers and colossi almost every time. Until you can make 3-5 racks and more economy, producing Marauder is not as effective as Marine, because you can only make 1 per rack at a time. Marine is also better in term of DPS and cost efficiency depsite Marauder bonus DPS against armor unit. Adding a couple of Marauder with Concussive Shell to slow down the units is the normal strategy in early TvP. | ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
On September 12 2021 03:10 darklycid wrote: Bunny has improved massively recently i'm hopeful for a good series. I think Bunny could steal a map, maybe two if he gets a bit creative, but Serral would be very upset if he lost to Bunny. No offense intended of course, but a player of Serral's level should be sweeping the series 3-0 easily | ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Shathe
Hungary422 Posts
| ||
|
tigera6
3482 Posts
| ||
|
Crocolisk Dundee
870 Posts
| ||
|
geokilla
Canada8245 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On September 12 2021 03:40 geokilla wrote: Skytoss is just ridiculously strong. Dark's Hydralisks were way too split up. | ||
|
geokilla
Canada8245 Posts
| ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland26508 Posts
On September 12 2021 01:31 Charoisaur wrote: I think it's a mental block for him at this moment. Of course Serral is better than him but he should be doing better than him than he currently does It’s as much a clash of styles as anything else. You barely ever out-standard Serral unless you’re on his level mechanically and HM’s as standard as they come. Not a knock on HM at all. Also meant to post this about 3 hours ago, oops. | ||
|
darklycid
3541 Posts
| ||
|
Elentos
55570 Posts
| ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
| ||
Waxangel
United States33585 Posts
 | ||
|
TheLordofAwesome
Korea (South)2655 Posts
Obviously he shouldn't have gone mass hydras in the first place, they eventually just get slaughtered by mass storm, disruptor, zealots as we saw | ||
|
Waxangel
United States33585 Posts
On September 12 2021 03:51 TheLordofAwesome wrote: Dark played like an idiot. no infestors for shroud while playing mass hydra vs mass carriers?? yah the dude should study games from other pro zergs, maybe even a guy called Dark  | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On September 12 2021 03:51 TheLordofAwesome wrote: Dark played like an idiot. no infestors for shroud while playing mass hydra vs mass carriers?? Shroud isn't good | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
tigera6
3482 Posts
| ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
| ||
|
TheLordofAwesome
Korea (South)2655 Posts
On September 12 2021 03:51 Waxangel wrote: yah the dude should study games from other pro zergs, maybe even a guy called Dark He should, Dark didn't play as well today as he has in the past. | ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
| ||
|
Shathe
Hungary422 Posts
| ||
|
Elentos
55570 Posts
| ||
|
geokilla
Canada8245 Posts
On September 12 2021 03:52 TheLordofAwesome wrote: He should, Dark didn't play as well today as he has in the past. Cut him some slack. ESL forcing him to play at 4AM instead of 12AM does that to a person's mind. | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On September 12 2021 03:48 WombaT wrote: It’s as much a clash of styles as anything else. You barely ever out-standard Serral unless you’re on his level mechanically and HM’s as standard as they come. Not a knock on HM at all. Also meant to post this about 3 hours ago, oops. Yeah I just think if players like Cure and ByuN are sometimes able to decisively beat Serral in macro games HM should at least be able to take maps and make the series closer | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On September 12 2021 03:53 Elentos wrote: I mean Dark's game plan kinda ended when he didn't manage to bust Trap's 3rd and he had to improvise everything from there. And from that perspective it wasn't a complete disaster. Yeah, but I'm pretty sure he should have succeeded in busting Trap's 3rd, so in that sense it's pretty bad. | ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
On September 12 2021 03:53 Elentos wrote: I mean Dark's game plan kinda ended when he didn't manage to bust Trap's 3rd and he had to improvise everything from there. And from that perspective it wasn't a complete disaster. I agree but this makes his hesitation at the 3rd even less understandable | ||
|
tigera6
3482 Posts
| ||
|
-YoricK-
United States476 Posts
On September 12 2021 03:44 geokilla wrote: Wait I just realized these games are played live. Why didn't they just start them early and cast the replay? Or move the games around so KR vs KR played first and then EU vs EU played last? It's 4AM in Korea. Wtf. Yeah it makes zero sense to have trap/dark go last | ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
On September 12 2021 03:54 geokilla wrote: Cut him some slack. ESL forcing him to play at 4AM instead of 12AM does that to a person's mind. Also, he has GSL match to prepare this Monday too. | ||
|
Elentos
55570 Posts
On September 12 2021 03:54 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Yeah, but I'm pretty sure he should have succeeded in busting Trap's 3rd, so in that sense it's pretty bad. Probably but I guess he forgot to bring enough hydras to kill 6 voids over a battery for his roach/hydra bust. | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On September 12 2021 03:56 Elentos wrote: Probably but I guess he forgot to bring enough hydras to kill 6 voids over a battery for his roach/hydra bust. He had them, but he chose to pull them back to fight the Adept/Disruptor coming from the natural, leaving a mostly Roach army to fight the Void Rays. It was just an awful split of his army. | ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On September 12 2021 03:56 -YoricK- wrote: Yeah it makes zero sense to have trap/dark go last To be fair, it would be really dumb of the koreans to not get accustomed to this beforehand, if any of them makes it to the final it will probably be even later and you want to be in top shape then. | ||
|
geokilla
Canada8245 Posts
On September 12 2021 03:56 -YoricK- wrote: Yeah it makes zero sense to have trap/dark go last It's reasons like this why I can't take SC2 season finals seriously... | ||
|
tigera6
3482 Posts
On September 12 2021 03:54 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah I just think if players like Cure and ByuN are sometimes able to decisively beat Serral in macro games HM should at least be able to take maps and make the series closer Cure and Byun playing much more agressive than HM ever did in that last series. by making a super early 3rd CC, HM simply telling Serral that he can build whatever the hell he wants and doesnt have to worry about anything other than some Helion runby which Serral can defend easily. Byun and Cure would have made 16-20 Marines, or do Hellbat push, or some crazy Mine Drop that force Serral to make more army, less economy and tech. | ||
|
Elentos
55570 Posts
| ||
|
darklycid
3541 Posts
| ||
|
tigera6
3482 Posts
On September 12 2021 03:59 HolydaKing wrote: To be fair, it would be really dumb of the koreans to not get accustomed to this beforehand, if any of them makes it to the final it will probably be even later and you want to be in top shape then. Not during their GSL code S season, DH Global Final could have started 2-3 weeks ago, after the DH EU finished, then we might have less conflict. Cant expect player to prepare and schedule for 2 tournament at much different timezone at the same time. Imagine asking Clem Serral and Reynor playing at 2am and see how they say. | ||
|
Sent.
Poland9289 Posts
| ||
|
TheLordofAwesome
Korea (South)2655 Posts
Shroud is good, anyone? Infestors are good units! | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Sent.
Poland9289 Posts
| ||
|
geokilla
Canada8245 Posts
On September 12 2021 04:07 TheLordofAwesome wrote: Much better from Dark this game Shroud is good, anyone? Infestors are good units! Have they ever been bad? | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
 . | ||
|
geokilla
Canada8245 Posts
| ||
|
Elentos
55570 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
TheLordofAwesome
Korea (South)2655 Posts
| ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On September 12 2021 04:07 TheLordofAwesome wrote: Much better from Dark this game Shroud is good, anyone? Infestors are good units! Yeah almost imba | ||
|
tigera6
3482 Posts
| ||
|
Elentos
55570 Posts
On September 12 2021 04:12 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Holy shit, was that Archon splash on all those Corruptors? Yes, and it was... explosive. To be fair I think he was short like 30 corruptors to begin with to win that air fight. | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
I've rarely seen a Zerg clump air units over Archons like that, reminds me of the ridiculousness of the Mothership Archon Toilet. | ||
|
stilt
France2754 Posts
| ||
|
tigera6
3482 Posts
| ||
|
Elentos
55570 Posts
On September 12 2021 04:19 tigera6 wrote: I dont feel like Dark is really comfortable with the Corruptor units, I think he would be better off to morph them into BroodLord to zone out the Disruptor and add Ravager to Biles down the air unit with Fungal. Makes it even easier for carriers to destroy the Zerg army. | ||
|
tigera6
3482 Posts
On September 12 2021 04:20 Elentos wrote: Makes it even easier for carriers to destroy the Zerg army. What normally kill the Zerg army is the Protoss ground unit, not the Carrier. Dark showed that you can push Carrier away with well cast Fungal + Parasistic Bomb + Biles. The Shroud also helps against them as well. | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
Waxangel
United States33585 Posts
| ||
|
Obamarauder
697 Posts
On September 12 2021 04:14 tigera6 wrote: Another bright side to this result, I feel Parting has a much better shot against Trap than Dark. We might get to see Parting winning his first premiere tournament after so many years. theres literally zero chance parting beats serral | ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
On September 12 2021 06:32 Obamarauder wrote: theres literally zero chance parting beats serral I will quote again this statement if Serral lose. The 100% confidence you have is highly doubtful. | ||
|
AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
| ||
|
VanSCPurge
United States169 Posts
On September 12 2021 06:32 Obamarauder wrote: theres literally zero chance parting beats serral Parting is a good enough player to have better than a puncher's chance against any player in the world. Side note, why does it feel like so many people predict him to lose every round of every tournament? Seriously the guy has top 2 PvT in the world and there were still people picking him to lose to HM and Clem. | ||
|
tigera6
3482 Posts
On September 12 2021 12:04 VanSCPurge wrote: Parting is a good enough player to have better than a puncher's chance against any player in the world. Side note, why does it feel like so many people predict him to lose every round of every tournament? Seriously the guy has top 2 PvT in the world and there were still people picking him to lose to HM and Clem. Clem and HM kinda dominate the TvP in EU, so the fans & caster was looking down on the KR Toss a bit, like Zest, Parting and Trap. Even though MaxPax has been raising up to be arguably the best Protoss in EU, there is still a gap between him and the top dogs in KR, especially in PvT. | ||
|
Acrofales
Spain18253 Posts
On September 12 2021 13:28 tigera6 wrote: Clem and HM kinda dominate the TvP in EU, so the fans & caster was looking down on the KR Toss a bit, like Zest, Parting and Trap. Even though MaxPax has been raising up to be arguably the best Protoss in EU, there is still a gap between him and the top dogs in KR, especially in PvT. EU toss has been a joke for a long time. Showtime and Mana were probably the best for a long while, but to find an EU toss that could make a dent in Korea you'd have to go all the way back to Naniwa. NA toss is where foreign hope has generally been, and even now I'd say Neeb and maybe even Astrea are better than Maxpax. So saying he's the best in Europe is damning him with faint praise. | ||
|
Poopi
France12911 Posts
On September 12 2021 03:15 sudete wrote: I think Bunny could steal a map, maybe two if he gets a bit creative, but Serral would be very upset if he lost to Bunny. No offense intended of course, but a player of Serral's level should be sweeping the series 3-0 easily I think Bunny would have a shot without ping, he improved massively and went 3-2 vs Dark. Dark managed to beat Clem and Serral just can’t ; sure the ping didn’t help Clem but Bunny is for real. With ping though, it will probably 3-1 Serral and at best 3-2. Trap beating Dark is also massively good for Serral lol, we can almost give him the trophy right now! | ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On September 12 2021 17:15 Acrofales wrote: EU toss has been a joke for a long time. Showtime and Mana were probably the best for a long while, but to find an EU toss that could make a dent in Korea you'd have to go all the way back to Naniwa. NA toss is where foreign hope has generally been, and even now I'd say Neeb and maybe even Astrea are better than Maxpax. So saying he's the best in Europe is damning him with faint praise. Outside of Neeb one as to go back to Huk to have a really good NA Toss. (outside of the legendary Arium) China was were it was at. Edit: What do you guys think, under or over 40 minutes? | ||
|
dysenterymd
1250 Posts
| ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
| ||
|
Sent.
Poland9289 Posts
Uff, finally. | ||
|
watchlulu
Germany475 Posts
On September 12 2021 23:23 sudete wrote: Been a while since I've seen a korean terran deal this badly against the pool first cc slowdown thing Well usually terrans do scout and leave the Reaper behind when they see there's no hatch. Bunny didn't scout, because he went proxy Factory | ||
|
stilt
France2754 Posts
On September 12 2021 23:23 sudete wrote: Been a while since I've seen a korean terran deal this badly against the pool first cc slowdown thing Reminds me maru vs reynor on lightshade | ||
|
Topin
Peru10111 Posts
Serral is just destroying him | ||
|
RandomPlayer
Russian Federation400 Posts
| ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
On September 12 2021 23:37 watchlulu wrote: Well usually terrans do scout and leave the Reaper behind when they see there's no hatch. Bunny didn't scout, because he went proxy Factory Even with the single marine and SCV defence, it's on the terran to do the dance and not lose 3 SCVs + the first marine | ||
|
Poopi
France12911 Posts
On September 12 2021 23:38 sudete wrote: Even with the single marine and SCV defence, it's on the terran to do the dance and not lose 3 SCVs + the first marine That's online era for you unfortunately :/ | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
| ||
|
Pandain
United States12989 Posts
| ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
| ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
| ||
|
stilt
France2754 Posts
| ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
| ||
|
Starcloud
138 Posts
| ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
| ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4967 Posts
| ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On September 13 2021 00:24 HolydaKing wrote: Come on Parting, I think him vs Serral would be a much more interesting series! Yeah, as much as I respect Trap for carrying Protoss these last years, I don't have that much faith in him winning a finals against a top Zerg . | ||
|
Steroidbrucie
56 Posts
| ||
|
Sent.
Poland9289 Posts
| ||
|
dysenterymd
1250 Posts
On September 13 2021 00:26 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Yeah, as much as I respect Trap for carrying Protoss these last years, I don't have that much faith in him winning a finals against a top Zerg .It's an online tournament, he's already beaten Dark, Serral, Reynor, and Solar (though I guess Solar isn't on the level of those three) in online finals. I think he has a much better chance against Serral than Parting, even if Serral looks very favored after their group stage match. | ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On September 13 2021 00:29 Sent. wrote: Is Parting dead He managed to survive somehow, but at what cost... | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On September 13 2021 00:26 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Yeah, as much as I respect Trap for carrying Protoss these last years, I don't have that much faith in him winning a finals against a top Zerg .TSL and Last Chance? | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
I'm not saying it can't or hasn't happened, I'm saying I've seen him lose enough of them that I'm lacking in faith. | ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On September 13 2021 00:26 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Yeah, as much as I respect Trap for carrying Protoss these last years, I don't have that much faith in him winning a finals against a top Zerg .I mean even if he has a good shot, I'd much rather see PartinG - we had a lot of Trap vs Serral series ... | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On September 13 2021 00:39 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I'm not saying it can't or hasn't happened, I'm saying I've seen him lose enough of them that I'm lacking in faith. I have much less faith in PartinGs PvZ vs top Z. Those have been his cryptonite his entire career | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On September 13 2021 00:41 Charoisaur wrote: I have much less faith in PartinGs PvZ vs top Z That's fair. | ||
|
darklycid
3541 Posts
| ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On September 13 2021 00:41 Charoisaur wrote: I have much less faith in PartinGs PvZ vs top Z. Those have been his cryptonite his entire career Do we have any recent samples? PartinG is very good vs T and if he says he's great vs Z as well I want to believe him. Sadly Trap is great in PvP so it doesn't look like we'll see it. | ||
|
Durnuu
13322 Posts
On September 13 2021 00:43 HolydaKing wrote: Do we have any recent samples? PartinG is very good vs T and if he says he's great vs Z as well I want to believe him. Sadly Trap is great in PvP so it doesn't look like we'll see it. He got badly stomped by Dark last GSL, for one | ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On September 13 2021 00:45 Durnuu wrote: He got badly stomped by Dark last GSL, for one That's some while ago as well, he won vs Dark this time didn't he? You know, much like Serral stepped it up again lately, maybe Parting has too. | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
| ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13322 Posts
On September 13 2021 00:46 HolydaKing wrote: That's some while ago as well, he won vs Dark this time didn't he? You know, much like Serral stepped it up again lately, maybe Parting has too. Hm no, Trap did  And if you mean in the current GSL, they didn't play despite being in the same group.Yeah PartinG could've stepped up, but let's just say I'm not the biggest believer considering his history in PvZ (and also the current PvZ meta) | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On September 13 2021 00:46 HolydaKing wrote: That's some while ago as well, he won vs Dark this time didn't he? You know, much like Serral stepped it up again lately, maybe Parting has too. quick look on Aligulac says he lost the last 5 series vs Dark in a row. But it's not just that, I have never seen him look convincing vs a top Zerg. Those always seemed to be his weakness, already in 2014-2015 when he kept losing to soO... | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On September 13 2021 00:53 Charoisaur wrote: quick look on Aligulac says he lost the last 5 series vs Dark in a row. But it's not just that, I have never seen him look convincing vs a top Zerg. Those always seemed to be his weakness, already in 2014-2015 when he kept losing to soO... as he couldn't fix this weakness in 7 years, I'm doubtful he has now | ||
|
Sent.
Poland9289 Posts
| ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On September 13 2021 01:11 Sent. wrote: Trap's brain looks bigger today making carriers is a good skill toi have | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
| ||
|
Elentos
55570 Posts
| ||
|
Topin
Peru10111 Posts
| ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
| ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
| ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
| ||
|
Topin
Peru10111 Posts
 | ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
| ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On September 13 2021 02:05 sudete wrote: PvZ looks bad when protoss wins, looks worse when zerg wins. Yeah it's just not a very fun match up to watch lately, in my opinion. The Terran match ups are the best to watch. | ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On September 13 2021 02:06 HolydaKing wrote: Yeah it's just not a very fun match up to watch lately, in my opinion. The Terran match ups are the best to watch. The mirror are pretty fun too, it's really just zvp for me. | ||
|
Lazzarus
Faroe Islands114 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13322 Posts
On September 13 2021 02:09 Lazzarus wrote: Is it Trap who hasn’t lost a Bo7 final? Or is that Rogue? It's definitely not Trap lmao | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On September 13 2021 02:09 Lazzarus wrote: Is it Trap who hasn’t lost a Bo7 final? Or is that Rogue? wasn't that soO? | ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
Gotta love player cameras, Trap with all the desperate smiles. ^^ | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13322 Posts
| ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
You guys are thinking of Yellow But on a side note, I think Trap will tie MC today as the player with the most second places today. Edit: NVM I can't count, he's still one behind | ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
| ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
| ||
|
Topin
Peru10111 Posts
| ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On September 13 2021 02:19 Charoisaur wrote: yeah Trap didn't show up here You can't say he doesn't try, he just has a hard time against Serral. | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On September 13 2021 02:20 HolydaKing wrote: You can't say he doesn't try, he just has a hard time against Serral. he has made a lot of unforced errors in every game thus far. Reminds me of the GSL finals vs Dark | ||
|
sim9999
10 Posts
| ||
|
Pandain
United States12989 Posts
| ||
|
darklycid
3541 Posts
| ||
|
Steroidbrucie
56 Posts
| ||
|
darklycid
3541 Posts
| ||
|
Topin
Peru10111 Posts
| ||
|
HeroSandro
535 Posts
| ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
| ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
| ||
|
Malinor
Germany4734 Posts
Gz Serral! | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
| ||
|
Sent.
Poland9289 Posts
| ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3130 Posts
| ||
|
Kitai
United States880 Posts
| ||
|
Weavel
Finland9222 Posts
| ||
|
stilt
France2754 Posts
Amazing perf, he seems back again | ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4967 Posts
| ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
| ||
|
Husyelt
United States837 Posts
| ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
| ||
|
Waxangel
United States33585 Posts
| ||
|
AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
BEATING KOREANS IN SEASON FINALS LMAO Clem is too good | ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On September 13 2021 02:38 sudete wrote: All things considered, is this the worst tournament we've had since the Rogue Stats GSL? Very underwhelming games, and you could predict the end from a mile away Really though? Clem vs PartinG wasn't a 100% series, and if Dark would have beaten Trap it could have been a very different day today. | ||
|
DreamlnCode
United Kingdom77 Posts
| ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland26508 Posts
| ||
|
Poopi
France12911 Posts
On September 13 2021 02:38 sudete wrote: All things considered, is this the worst tournament we've had since the Rogue Stats GSL? Very underwhelming games, and you could predict the end from a mile away From a terran perspective, yes. Although if we could get some events offline again it would help a lot… | ||
|
Noa Greenini
265 Posts
On September 13 2021 02:39 AzAlexZ wrote: Reynor and Serral: LOSING TO CLEM IN EU FINALS BEATING KOREANS IN SEASON FINALS LMAO Clem is too good Yeah it actually is kind of interesting that Clem seems to have a hard time vs Koreans but do well vs foreigners.. | ||
|
Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
| ||
|
HeroSandro
535 Posts
On September 13 2021 02:39 AzAlexZ wrote: Reynor and Serral: LOSING TO CLEM IN EU FINALS BEATING KOREANS IN SEASON FINALS LMAO Clem is too good I think that Serral and Reynor are still better overall players than Clem. Clem is super good in TvZ, but struggles against top T/P. | ||
|
Pandain
United States12989 Posts
| ||
|
geokilla
Canada8245 Posts
On September 13 2021 02:44 HeroSandro wrote: I think that Serral and Reynor are still better overall players than Clem. Clem is super good in TvZ, but struggles against top T/P. Let’s not forget cross server lag benefits Zerg | ||
|
HeroSandro
535 Posts
On September 13 2021 02:47 geokilla wrote: Let’s not forget cross server lag benefits Zerg Still. Until Clem shows that he can defeat the top koreans consistently, i consider Serral and Reynor to be better overall. | ||
|
InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
| ||
|
Calliope
297 Posts
On September 13 2021 02:50 HeroSandro wrote: Still. Until Clem shows that he can defeat the top koreans consistently, i consider Serral and Reynor to be better overall. If that is the criteria it has never been possible with any other race than zerg. We seriously need to be able to appreciate foreigners playing the other races too. | ||
|
HeroSandro
535 Posts
On September 13 2021 04:04 Calliope wrote: If that is the criteria it has never been possible with any other race than zerg. We seriously need to be able to appreciate foreigners playing the other races too. I´m not disrespecting Clem. He is absolutely a world class player. I was just responding to a comment about Clem, Reynor and Serral. Saying i consider player X to be better than player Y does not mean i do not respect both players. | ||
|
[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
| ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland26508 Posts
On September 13 2021 04:04 Calliope wrote: If that is the criteria it has never been possible with any other race than zerg. We seriously need to be able to appreciate foreigners playing the other races too. Clem’s great, he’s just not as rounded (yet?) Especially during his miracle year Serral was one of if not the best player of his race in all three matchups. Still a bloody excellent player, but apart from maybe DRG with ZvT I can’t think of many high level pros who have a matchup that’s a league above their others. | ||
|
dysenterymd
1250 Posts
| ||
|
Obamarauder
697 Posts
| ||
|
Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
| ||
|
Kitai
United States880 Posts
On September 13 2021 08:04 Morbidius wrote: PvZ must be the first matchup in history where players of a race declare it to be utterly impossible to play after the best Protoss player gets trashed 6-0 in the matchup that favors him I don't quite get that. He just 3-0'd Dark, the reigning GSL champion, in his prior PvZ series. Also, the only map Serral dropped in the entire tournament was to a protoss. Serral was just that on fire this weekend, wasn't a race issue. | ||
|
koalabro
59 Posts
| ||
|
Gescom
Canada3509 Posts
| ||
|
tigera6
3482 Posts
On September 13 2021 09:50 Gescom wrote: Wonder if Trap was saving strats for GSL or something. Nevertheless, amazing performance from Serral overall. Not having to play ZvZ helped as well no doubt. Hes playing Maru next and wont play a potential PvZ until the Grand Final, so hiding strats here is just not necessary. It just look like Serral outplay Trap in every aspect of the game and Trap couldnt do anything about it for the entire series. And I am quite suprised that Trap didnt go back to the double Stargate Voidray opening, at least it leads to lategame the last time and Trap could do something better about it in lategame. | ||
|
AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On September 13 2021 08:04 Morbidius wrote: PvZ must be the first matchup in history where players of a race declare it to be utterly impossible to play after the best Protoss player gets trashed 6-0 in the matchup that favors him Not true at all, Trap played really poorly in the finals and in the group stage match vs Serral. He made a lot of mistakes, some unforced and others through the brilliance of Serral (also possibly due to lag). If there is anything that would invalidate the claim on Serral absolutely smacking Trap this tourney, it would be Cross Server, I'm sure we see different results if this were offline. 2019 OP Zerg is not a thing anymore. On September 13 2021 08:10 Kitai wrote: I don't quite get that. He just 3-0'd Dark, the reigning GSL champion, in his prior PvZ series. Also, the only map Serral dropped in the entire tournament was to a protoss. Serral was just that on fire this weekend, wasn't a race issue. My only argument is that it was not cross server | ||
|
Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
| ||
|
HeroSandro
535 Posts
On September 13 2021 12:56 Morbidius wrote: Not sure if it was a dominant run by Serral or a long torture session with Trap. Serral played really well, but nothing went Traps way in the finals. You could see on the camera, that he was frustrated as hell. | ||
|
MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
Add to that I really dont think any protoss could beat a top zerg in the finals of any tournament, the game has been in this state for years. | ||
|
Harris1st
Germany7139 Posts
On September 13 2021 15:11 MarianoSC2 wrote: Add to that I really dont think any protoss could beat a top zerg in the finals of any tournament, the game has been in this state for years. Ah so that is way Trap 3:0'ed Dark in quarters. Makes perfect sense... And as soon as we have offline play and a Kr loses you will be the first to cry "but Jetlag" | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland26508 Posts
On September 13 2021 16:40 Harris1st wrote: Ah so that is way Trap 3:0'ed Dark in quarters. Makes perfect sense... And as soon as we have offline play and a Kr loses you will be the first to cry "but Jetlag" He did say finals. Trap has managed it before in the relatively recent past though, playing better than he did here. In tournament play though a Bo7 against a Zerg generally seems a different beast than managing it earlier in a tournament. To take out a player of Dark’s calibre you have to show your best hand, then when it comes to a Bo7 you’re playing someone of Serral’s calibre who’s seen your best cards already. It’s just the nature of the matchup I guess. Not sure how the matchup numbers actually work out, from intuition it seems Protoss has a considerably easier time in a Bo3, but when we get to Bo7 finals has a generally awful time. | ||
|
dysenterymd
1250 Posts
On September 14 2021 00:43 WombaT wrote: He did say finals. Trap has managed it before in the relatively recent past though, playing better than he did here. In tournament play though a Bo7 against a Zerg generally seems a different beast than managing it earlier in a tournament. To take out a player of Dark’s calibre you have to show your best hand, then when it comes to a Bo7 you’re playing someone of Serral’s calibre who’s seen your best cards already. It’s just the nature of the matchup I guess. Not sure how the matchup numbers actually work out, from intuition it seems Protoss has a considerably easier time in a Bo3, but when we get to Bo7 finals has a generally awful time. People used to talk about how Terran was the preparation race, but it really seems like protoss is the preparation race now at least against Zerg. There are so many weekenders where a Protoss will take down one world class Zerg only to be obliterated by another. | ||
|
mierin
United States4943 Posts
| ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland26508 Posts
On September 14 2021 01:20 mierin wrote: It's not about "the hand" or "the cards"...Trap literally said it himself in his winner's interview, he switches styles based on the player he's playing. It seems like he has a heromarine-ish complex wrt Serral where he feels like he his the superior player--he doesn't face that issue with Dark. Or, lol "I can play dark with better lag than Serral" -- the reason half this forum unironically believes Trap lost 4-0 to Serral and won 3-0 against Dark Why would Trap have a complex against Serral who he’s actually beaten in a tournament final and not Dark who curbstomped him in two GSL finals? That aside he can also play sub-par, or styles may not mesh to explain any individual series too. In aggregate over quite a while Protoss seem to struggle in Bo7s against Zerg, partly explicable by only facing the creme de la creme, and quite frequently score an eye catching win against a Zerg only to get roundly defeated by the next one they face in big events. Protoss isn’t exactly super flexible in the matchup with how their builds work, there’s only so many you can keep tight and in your pocket. Zerg course correction is sometimes something as in-game reactive as skipping a round of drones for army. Note I do think the reverse is also probably true, Bo3 or less and a match against Protoss is a match against an entire repertoire of potential cheeses, timing attacks and late game turtling all being viable. If we had a Proleague in its pomp again I imagine Protoss would be having a rather good time. | ||
|
stilt
France2754 Posts
On September 14 2021 05:42 WombaT wrote: Why would Trap have a complex against Serral who he’s actually beaten in a tournament final and not Dark who curbstomped him in two GSL finals? That aside he can also play sub-par, or styles may not mesh to explain any individual series too. In aggregate over quite a while Protoss seem to struggle in Bo7s against Zerg, partly explicable by only facing the creme de la creme, and quite frequently score an eye catching win against a Zerg only to get roundly defeated by the next one they face in big events. Protoss isn’t exactly super flexible in the matchup with how their builds work, there’s only so many you can keep tight and in your pocket. Zerg course correction is sometimes something as in-game reactive as skipping a round of drones for army. Note I do think the reverse is also probably true, Bo3 or less and a match against Protoss is a match against an entire repertoire of potential cheeses, timing attacks and late game turtling all being viable. If we had a Proleague in its pomp again I imagine Protoss would be having a rather good time. There is some recency biais here. This year Trap won 3 premier tourney by winning zvp, if you count neeb's win, most zvp finals have been won by toss this year, if you don't, that's a 50/50. In one of them, he even lost to reynor in bo7 before getting his revenge in the finals. As far as bo7 goes, a quick look on aligulac at zest/trap history vs top zerg opponents shows that's simply not true. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland26508 Posts
On September 14 2021 06:29 stilt wrote: There is some recency biais here. This year Trap won 3 premier tourney by winning zvp, if you count neeb's win, most zvp finals have been won by toss this year, if you don't, that's a 50/50. In one of them, he even lost to reynor in bo7 before getting his revenge in the finals. As far as bo7 goes, a quick look on aligulac at zest/trap history vs top zerg opponents shows that's simply not true. You are correct, that period of high tournament density and there was a couple I had to miss and so they weren’t in my memory banks. Trap is frustrating in that he’s my favourite active player and he is continually breaking ‘Wombat’s Law’, which held up pretty strongly previously for a good few years. Where if a Protoss player has to face 2 or more Zergs in a playoff bracket in a weekend premier, they are doomed to lose to the second (or third in theory, but that rarely happened). Notable victims of Wombat’s Law being Stats in his last big Katowice run, Classic’s last Blizzcon, Zest also at Katowice etc. But yes I shall have to concede defeat here, given how old some of those runs are my gut feel is way out with the times. I do wonder if the patch/meta shifts and the strength of Skytoss have something to do with it. It’s far from unbeatable but Toss have a pretty mapped out path to strong lategame comps which they weren’t really managing a few years ago. Gives Zerg way more to have to think about than when they could just defend and have a lovely day if they made it to real late game. | ||
| ||
