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On October 10 2020 19:09 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2020 18:46 deacon.frost wrote:On October 10 2020 18:23 tigon_ridge wrote:On October 10 2020 18:18 deacon.frost wrote:On October 10 2020 18:03 Swisslink wrote:On October 10 2020 17:57 deacon.frost wrote:On October 10 2020 17:52 Swisslink wrote:On October 10 2020 17:35 deacon.frost wrote:On October 10 2020 17:30 tigon_ridge wrote:On October 10 2020 17:02 Tsubbi wrote:
korean zerg level is so disappointing compared to europe atm SHHHHHHH. These people aren't supposed to know that zerg isn't actually op, and that it's just the top two players skewing the statistics with their superior consistency. Please be respectful as to not dispel their delusion prematurely. Let it melt slowly and painfully before their myopic eyes. Wrong, wrong, wrong! I cannot tell you how much wrong are you, check the results and for example who won the WC titles. Also you realize Rogue won more than Serral this year? so who are the 2 people?  The fact that few players win most of the tournaments just means that the game is at a very stable spot with random bullshittery no longer determining the outcome of the tournaments, imo. Whether that‘s a good thing from a viewer perspective is an entirely different conversation. Weird games have alsways been awesome to watch. But having players that are able to consistently perform really well and having them rarely fall to underdogs who just throw some weird builds they could not have possibly seen coming at them is - at least from a competitive standpoint - a good thing. Yes, and all of them are zergs, what a coincidence. For 3 years the game is great. If you're zerg. C'mon... That‘s mainly a result of Europa having caught up with Korea in some parts and Europe traditionally having tons of Zerg players. It‘s mostly two, to be honest and they both are from Europe, a scene that has traditionally been dominated by Zerg. In Korea, the Zerg dominance is far less severe. sure, that must be it. Rogue winning Blizzcon and 2 IEMs has everything about Korea. Or Dark winning Blizzcon or soO winning IEM. Like look, I don't mind zergs winning, I mind zergs winning all the time. I want to see other champions, you know, so, I don't know, it's about me looking forward for a Protoss champ more than once in a blue moon. On October 10 2020 18:18 tigon_ridge wrote:On October 10 2020 18:02 Charoisaur wrote:On October 10 2020 17:30 tigon_ridge wrote:On October 10 2020 17:02 Tsubbi wrote:
korean zerg level is so disappointing compared to europe atm SHHHHHHH. These people aren't supposed to know that zerg isn't actually op, and that it's just the top two players skewing the statistics with their superior consistency. Please be respectful as to not dispel their delusion prematurely. Let it melt slowly and painfully before their myopic eyes. Serral: 38% of Zerg victories since 2018 Maru: 55% of Terran victories since 2018 Maru is skewing the statistics for terran harder than Serral for Zerg. All brain cells have just died. Congratulations. You have accomplished your goal. Jk there's a couple left. Not many needed to debunk stupid. What's your source, and what is a "victory"? Their forms: http://aligulac.com/players/485-Serral/http://aligulac.com/players/49-Maru/Their all-times: http://aligulac.com/players/485-Serral/http://aligulac.com/players/49-Maru/Serral's non-mirror %s are significantly better. If Maru is skewing more, then maybe aligulac is broken and your imaginary data points prove me wrong. And, I'm not even talking about JUST Serral. The other zerg is arguably just as strong this year as Serral. You know who. Don't use words you don;'t know what they mean. In the terms of skewing statistics he's right, Maru is bigger anomaly than Serral. ALSO give us the names of them zergs skewing statistics and their titles! I used elementary words. I guess, to you, they must be pretty high-level. I don't know what data you have to back up your opinion, but it seems people around here rely more on feelings than data. "Titles" don't mean much, unless you think whatever the die lands on is more important than consistent results. Try to use them correctly the next time then. The names! Where are the 2 names!!!! Oooof! If you still don't know who the two best zergs are, there's nothing anyone can say that will help you. Thanks for correcting my English, Professor. Funny that while you neglect to point out those words, you insist upon my giving you names that should already be apparent. You brought a genuine smile to my face. Always entertaining witnessing a Dunning Kruger effect exhibition.
Rogue and Reynor I guess since they won the most this year?
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TvZ balance seems pretty good on this map pool, maybe ever so slightly Terran favoured, but Zergs will probably a just, just like Toss has done in PvZ. Zergs can still crush Terran with both well timed attacks and skilled muta, lurker or viper play.
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On October 10 2020 18:16 Calliope wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2020 17:57 deacon.frost wrote:On October 10 2020 17:52 Swisslink wrote:On October 10 2020 17:35 deacon.frost wrote:On October 10 2020 17:30 tigon_ridge wrote:On October 10 2020 17:02 Tsubbi wrote:
korean zerg level is so disappointing compared to europe atm SHHHHHHH. These people aren't supposed to know that zerg isn't actually op, and that it's just the top two players skewing the statistics with their superior consistency. Please be respectful as to not dispel their delusion prematurely. Let it melt slowly and painfully before their myopic eyes. Wrong, wrong, wrong! I cannot tell you how much wrong are you, check the results and for example who won the WC titles. Also you realize Rogue won more than Serral this year? so who are the 2 people? The fact that few players win most of the tournaments just means that the game is at a very stable spot with random bullshittery no longer determining the outcome of the tournaments, imo. Whether that‘s a good thing from a viewer perspective is an entirely different conversation. Weird games have alsways been awesome to watch. But having players that are able to consistently perform really well and having them rarely fall to underdogs who just throw some weird builds they could not have possibly seen coming at them is - at least from a competitive standpoint - a good thing. Yes, and all of them are zergs, what a coincidence. For 3 years the game is great. If you're zerg. C'mon... Foreigner bias will have people religiously believing the most lopsided 3 years can be a pure coincidence. Why has there never been such a dominance from foreigners with ANY other race. Hmm...
Because for the majority of the game‘s existence Koreans were dominating the foreign scene. Hard to make a claim based on the current trend of Europeans being able to compete with Koreans. And it‘s not just Serral and Reynor - Clem managed to beat the top dogs as well recently. Just not all of them back to back.
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Northern Ireland26408 Posts
On October 10 2020 18:16 Calliope wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2020 17:57 deacon.frost wrote:On October 10 2020 17:52 Swisslink wrote:On October 10 2020 17:35 deacon.frost wrote:On October 10 2020 17:30 tigon_ridge wrote:On October 10 2020 17:02 Tsubbi wrote:
korean zerg level is so disappointing compared to europe atm SHHHHHHH. These people aren't supposed to know that zerg isn't actually op, and that it's just the top two players skewing the statistics with their superior consistency. Please be respectful as to not dispel their delusion prematurely. Let it melt slowly and painfully before their myopic eyes. Wrong, wrong, wrong! I cannot tell you how much wrong are you, check the results and for example who won the WC titles. Also you realize Rogue won more than Serral this year? so who are the 2 people? The fact that few players win most of the tournaments just means that the game is at a very stable spot with random bullshittery no longer determining the outcome of the tournaments, imo. Whether that‘s a good thing from a viewer perspective is an entirely different conversation. Weird games have alsways been awesome to watch. But having players that are able to consistently perform really well and having them rarely fall to underdogs who just throw some weird builds they could not have possibly seen coming at them is - at least from a competitive standpoint - a good thing. Yes, and all of them are zergs, what a coincidence. For 3 years the game is great. If you're zerg. C'mon... Foreigner bias will have people religiously believing the most lopsided 3 years can be a pure coincidence. Why has there never been such a dominance from foreigners with ANY other race. Hmm...
There’s very rarely been a dominant foreigner. Often a clear enough ‘best’ foreigner but the kind of gap Serral and Reynor opened over the rest of foreign land is kind of the exception. Stephano for a brief period, Neeb managed it for a period. Then the Serral monopoly thru duopoly with Reynor.
That’s really it to my recollection. Serral and Reynor are as far ahead of other good foreign Zergs as Rogue/Dark/soO have been in recent years from other Korean Zergs.
There are lots of factors so it’s not entirely pure coincidence, equally it’s not damningly indicative of Zerg being OP or w/e.
The real elite, championship tier of player is still really a small pool, a few pebbles make a huge ripple within its confines. The Protoss losing Classic and herO was a rather big deal for example.
On the other side foreign land merely produces one Terran with similar mechanical chops to his Korean counterparts and he’s competing pretty tooth and nail with Serral and Reynor, actually a bit earlier than I’d anticipated.
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Northern Ireland26408 Posts
On October 10 2020 19:07 Argonauta wrote:
sometimes when reading this threads, I imagine Maru or Serral together in a room drinking tea and laughing while reading this fights on TL.
I also like to imagine they continually play high stakes matches against each other while having a good laugh over the Serral/Maru matchup curse.
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On October 10 2020 19:12 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2020 19:09 tigon_ridge wrote:On October 10 2020 18:46 deacon.frost wrote:On October 10 2020 18:23 tigon_ridge wrote:On October 10 2020 18:18 deacon.frost wrote:On October 10 2020 18:03 Swisslink wrote:On October 10 2020 17:57 deacon.frost wrote:On October 10 2020 17:52 Swisslink wrote:On October 10 2020 17:35 deacon.frost wrote:On October 10 2020 17:30 tigon_ridge wrote:
[quote]
SHHHHHHH. These people aren't supposed to know that zerg isn't actually op, and that it's just the top two players skewing the statistics with their superior consistency. Please be respectful as to not dispel their delusion prematurely. Let it melt slowly and painfully before their myopic eyes. Wrong, wrong, wrong! I cannot tell you how much wrong are you, check the results and for example who won the WC titles. Also you realize Rogue won more than Serral this year? so who are the 2 people? The fact that few players win most of the tournaments just means that the game is at a very stable spot with random bullshittery no longer determining the outcome of the tournaments, imo. Whether that‘s a good thing from a viewer perspective is an entirely different conversation. Weird games have alsways been awesome to watch. But having players that are able to consistently perform really well and having them rarely fall to underdogs who just throw some weird builds they could not have possibly seen coming at them is - at least from a competitive standpoint - a good thing. Yes, and all of them are zergs, what a coincidence. For 3 years the game is great. If you're zerg. C'mon... That‘s mainly a result of Europa having caught up with Korea in some parts and Europe traditionally having tons of Zerg players. It‘s mostly two, to be honest and they both are from Europe, a scene that has traditionally been dominated by Zerg. In Korea, the Zerg dominance is far less severe. sure, that must be it. Rogue winning Blizzcon and 2 IEMs has everything about Korea. Or Dark winning Blizzcon or soO winning IEM. Like look, I don't mind zergs winning, I mind zergs winning all the time. I want to see other champions, you know, so, I don't know, it's about me looking forward for a Protoss champ more than once in a blue moon. On October 10 2020 18:18 tigon_ridge wrote:On October 10 2020 18:02 Charoisaur wrote:On October 10 2020 17:30 tigon_ridge wrote:On October 10 2020 17:02 Tsubbi wrote:
korean zerg level is so disappointing compared to europe atm SHHHHHHH. These people aren't supposed to know that zerg isn't actually op, and that it's just the top two players skewing the statistics with their superior consistency. Please be respectful as to not dispel their delusion prematurely. Let it melt slowly and painfully before their myopic eyes. Serral: 38% of Zerg victories since 2018 Maru: 55% of Terran victories since 2018 Maru is skewing the statistics for terran harder than Serral for Zerg. All brain cells have just died. Congratulations. You have accomplished your goal. Jk there's a couple left. Not many needed to debunk stupid. What's your source, and what is a "victory"? Their forms: http://aligulac.com/players/485-Serral/http://aligulac.com/players/49-Maru/Their all-times: http://aligulac.com/players/485-Serral/http://aligulac.com/players/49-Maru/Serral's non-mirror %s are significantly better. If Maru is skewing more, then maybe aligulac is broken and your imaginary data points prove me wrong. And, I'm not even talking about JUST Serral. The other zerg is arguably just as strong this year as Serral. You know who. Don't use words you don;'t know what they mean. In the terms of skewing statistics he's right, Maru is bigger anomaly than Serral. ALSO give us the names of them zergs skewing statistics and their titles! I used elementary words. I guess, to you, they must be pretty high-level. I don't know what data you have to back up your opinion, but it seems people around here rely more on feelings than data. "Titles" don't mean much, unless you think whatever the die lands on is more important than consistent results. Try to use them correctly the next time then. The names! Where are the 2 names!!!! Oooof! If you still don't know who the two best zergs are, there's nothing anyone can say that will help you. Thanks for correcting my English, Professor. Funny that while you neglect to point out those words, you insist upon my giving you names that should already be apparent. You brought a genuine smile to my face. Always entertaining witnessing a Dunning Kruger effect exhibition. Rogue and Reynor I guess since they won the most this year?
2020 Forms, Serral vs Rogue:
http://aligulac.com/players/485/results/?after=2020-01-01&before=&event=&race=ptzr&country=KR&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&wcs_season=&wcs_tier=&op=
http://aligulac.com/players/1662/results/?after=2020-01-01&before=&event=&race=ptzr&country=KR&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&wcs_season=&wcs_tier=&op=
Rogue isn't even in the same ball-park as Serral. How's your view over there? Is your world warping and tearing, yet?
But, whatever... "muh titles"
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A group with 2 top zergs but the terran and protoss advance with the latter in first place even. The T and P aren't exactly slouches either ofc but still.
Was both entertaining and sometimes frustrating to watch with all the questionable plays from everyone bar Trap.
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lmao at these toxic sc2 threads. Super happy for Trap, his play is really fun to watch
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United States16121 Posts
On October 10 2020 19:49 Penev wrote:
A group with 2 top zergs but the terran and protoss advance with the latter in first place even. The T and P aren't exactly slouches either ofc but still.
Was both entertaining and sometimes frustrating to watch with all the questionable plays from everyone bar Trap.
What bothers me is that Rogue and Dark got eliminated in this group but Armani advanced because no one challenged TY AT ALL in the Group Selections to the point where he didn't even use the pick swap.
These guys need to start actually just forcing some action in the group selections if they don't want to keep going out like this. The fact that Groups C and D were so ridiculously stacked so that we ended up in a situation where the winner of Group D had to face either Stats or Maru is so insane.
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On October 10 2020 20:03 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2020 19:49 Penev wrote:
A group with 2 top zergs but the terran and protoss advance with the latter in first place even. The T and P aren't exactly slouches either ofc but still.
Was both entertaining and sometimes frustrating to watch with all the questionable plays from everyone bar Trap. What bothers me is that Rogue and Dark got eliminated in this group but Armani advanced because no one challenged TY AT ALL in the Group Selections to the point where he didn't even use the pick swap. These guys need to start actually just forcing some action in the group selections if they don't want to keep going out like this. The fact that Groups C and D were so ridiculously stacked so that we ended up in a situation where the winner of Group D had to face either Stats or Maru is so insane.
This is why tournament organizers need to start rating their participants on an elo-based system, so that they can group players more logically. I agree, both Dark and Rogue are much stronger than DRG and Armani, but I do hope the latter two prove me wrong. I'm a particular fan of DRG, so I want to see him do well.
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Are there any games worth watching?
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On October 10 2020 20:03 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2020 19:49 Penev wrote:
A group with 2 top zergs but the terran and protoss advance with the latter in first place even. The T and P aren't exactly slouches either ofc but still.
Was both entertaining and sometimes frustrating to watch with all the questionable plays from everyone bar Trap. What bothers me is that Rogue and Dark got eliminated in this group but Armani advanced because no one challenged TY AT ALL in the Group Selections to the point where he didn't even use the pick swap. These guys need to start actually just forcing some action in the group selections if they don't want to keep going out like this. The fact that Groups C and D were so ridiculously stacked so that we ended up in a situation where the winner of Group D had to face either Stats or Maru is so insane.
That and abolish the swap. I like the groups selection with the banter and all but ultimately more balanced groups are preferable indeed.
On another note, I am actually happy how this group turned out (despite 1:2 bets). Stats' chances to win went significantly up I'd say.
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United States16121 Posts
I'm fine with the Group Selections being how they are, I just want the players to grow a damn spine and do more to challenge the guy with the pick swap.
There should have been at least ONE more decent player in Group A, and Zoun, Dream and Armani one of them at least should have been in another group. TY can't pick swap all of them.
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Does anyone have a feeling the Rogue games were a bit ... sus?... the broodlords and the way he played in the last rush too... seemed very very low level ..
Not accusing but after Life I never know what to believe anymore
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On October 10 2020 20:03 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2020 19:49 Penev wrote:
A group with 2 top zergs but the terran and protoss advance with the latter in first place even. The T and P aren't exactly slouches either ofc but still.
Was both entertaining and sometimes frustrating to watch with all the questionable plays from everyone bar Trap. What bothers me is that Rogue and Dark got eliminated in this group but Armani advanced because no one challenged TY AT ALL in the Group Selections to the point where he didn't even use the pick swap. These guys need to start actually just forcing some action in the group selections if they don't want to keep going out like this. The fact that Groups C and D were so ridiculously stacked so that we ended up in a situation where the winner of Group D had to face either Stats or Maru is so insane.
I am not sure if group B was any harder to get out of than group C, but group A was a lot easier than the rest this time.
I know DRG as a fantastic muta player, and that seems to be one of the ways Zerg can really bully Terran these days. Dark's muta/ling/bane was not as impressive, and Inno is just too good against that style.
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Northern Ireland26408 Posts
On October 10 2020 20:32 Dave4 wrote:
Does anyone have a feeling the Rogue games were a bit ... sus?... the broodlords and the way he played in the last rush too... seemed very very low level ..
Not accusing but after Life I never know what to believe anymore
Rogue almost always throws in weird stuff or cheesy builds, when they work he looks ruthless, when they don’t he can look a bit silly.
The brood thing was only particularly weird because it isn’t something we see in the matchup very often at all. Ultras into terrible engagement into a loss is so common that it doesn’t raise an eyebrow, Broods in ZvZ less so.
Was pretty bloody bad though, not sure what he was thinking. Might watch the FPVoD to see what he saw of Dark’s forces. Maybe he misread the Viper count horribly?
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On October 10 2020 20:32 Dave4 wrote:
Does anyone have a feeling the Rogue games were a bit ... sus?... the broodlords and the way he played in the last rush too... seemed very very low level ..
Not accusing but after Life I never know what to believe anymore
I think Rogue was trying to execute an idea he'd been practicing, and it probably worked out in practice, but just not in this particular instance. I think viewers are too quick to judge pro players' (who btw are much better than them at the game) decisions. What have been people been saying about ultras for ages? "Build ultras to throw game." Many memes later, Serral and other top zergs continue to crush with ultras.
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On October 10 2020 20:32 Dave4 wrote:
Does anyone have a feeling the Rogue games were a bit ... sus?... the broodlords and the way he played in the last rush too... seemed very very low level ..
Not accusing but after Life I never know what to believe anymore
Not sure about sus but some were certainly very bad. And what about Inno vs Trap? Some very questionable plays this group.
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On October 10 2020 20:41 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2020 20:32 Dave4 wrote:
Does anyone have a feeling the Rogue games were a bit ... sus?... the broodlords and the way he played in the last rush too... seemed very very low level ..
Not accusing but after Life I never know what to believe anymore I think Rogue was trying to execute an idea he'd been practicing, and it probably worked out in practice, but just not in this particular instance. I think viewers are too quick to judge pro players' (who btw are much better than them at the game) decisions. What have been people been saying about ultras for ages? "Build ultras to throw game." Many memes later, Serral and other top zergs continue to crush with ultras.
The broodlord game is definitely one thing but I can put that down to trying surprise and not paying off... but then look at his drone/ling rush game ... he spends so much time literally running in circles. The whole point of that build is you need to kill them off. He spends ages literally letting Dark build spines ... and when he has the huge lead after the initial battle he pulls back even though Dark has no lings and is down to one spine vs 2 + lings ...
Would be interested to hear what a pro thinks of it anyway.
Again I'm not accusing of anything but I just don't know what's going on in his head, it doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I'm just not reading the movements well.
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Wild celebrations breaking out in Blizzard balance team and EU Zerg fanboy clubs 
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EPT
