Ineed i think Neeb is the only one Maru might drop a map to, but i can't see Neeb beating Serral. So should be comfortable for Maru to get to the final vs Dark/Classic
On March 17 2018 05:24 Pandemona wrote: Ineed i think Neeb is the only one Maru might drop a map to, but i can't see Neeb beating Serral. So should be comfortable for Maru to get to the final vs Dark/Classic
i definitely think Neeb has a chance vs Serral, his series vs Serral was very close at Katowice
Of course Neeb has a chance, you can never count him out. However Serral is a favourite here, hands down. But I guess this will be the only close match. But still, I hope that we will have at least one upset in the matches vs koreans.
On March 17 2018 06:10 Fango wrote: Serral isn't the clear favourate. The series they played at Katowice was the closest of the whole tournament.
Also on another note, Neeb has never beaten a korean terran, and the only one Serral has beaten was aphrodite lol
The really surprising thing about that is learning that Serral has played against Aphrodite in an offline event.
I remember that, it was IeSF. The year after Zest won it without dropping any maps. Right at the beginning of LotV. They held the finals in Seoul but Aphrodite was the only Korean in the main tournament. They had an archon match between Jin Air & KT tho.
On March 17 2018 06:10 Fango wrote: Serral isn't the clear favourate. The series they played at Katowice was the closest of the whole tournament.
Also on another note, Neeb has never beaten a korean terran, and the only one Serral has beaten was aphrodite lol
I have a feeling that Serral is getting better and better while Neeb is not in the best shape lately. But sure it can go either way, that's why it is the best match tomorrow.
On March 17 2018 06:10 Fango wrote: Serral isn't the clear favourate. The series they played at Katowice was the closest of the whole tournament.
Also on another note, Neeb has never beaten a korean terran, and the only one Serral has beaten was aphrodite lol
I have a feeling that zerg is getting better and better while protoss is not in the best shape lately. But sure it can go either way, that's why it is the best match tomorrow.
Reynor could get the upset here if Maru underestimates him and showboats his way to a couple of stupid losses. I think Reynor has it in him to pull off one surprise game. Having said that, no sane person would bet against Maru here.
On March 17 2018 06:10 Fango wrote: Serral isn't the clear favourate. The series they played at Katowice was the closest of the whole tournament.
Also on another note, Neeb has never beaten a korean terran, and the only one Serral has beaten was aphrodite lol
I don't understand why you're saying this about Neeb. He won a KeSPA Cup. What am I missing?
(Edit: Did he really not beat a single Korean terran in that run, or ever anywhere else? That's just weird if so.)
In kespa cup he faced only protoss and the two worst zergs in the tournament. Probably one of the biggest ever cases of bracket luck (still impressive though).
On March 17 2018 06:10 Fango wrote: Serral isn't the clear favourate. The series they played at Katowice was the closest of the whole tournament.
Also on another note, Neeb has never beaten a korean terran, and the only one Serral has beaten was aphrodite lol
I don't understand why you're saying this about Neeb. He won a KeSPA Cup. What am I missing?
(Edit: Did he really not beat a single Korean terran in that run, or ever anywhere else? That's just weird if so.)
In kespa cup he faced only protoss and the two worst zergs in the tournament. Probably one of the biggest ever cases of bracket luck (still impressive though).
To Neeb's credit he did show proficiency in PvP by beating Stats who was the best PvPer in the world at the time. I'm sure we could find a tournament where the winner won by beating players who were very weak against the race of the winner, but strong in other match-ups.
On March 17 2018 06:10 Fango wrote: Serral isn't the clear favourate. The series they played at Katowice was the closest of the whole tournament.
Also on another note, Neeb has never beaten a korean terran, and the only one Serral has beaten was aphrodite lol
I don't understand why you're saying this about Neeb. He won a KeSPA Cup. What am I missing?
(Edit: Did he really not beat a single Korean terran in that run, or ever anywhere else? That's just weird if so.)
In kespa cup he faced only protoss and the two worst zergs in the tournament. Probably one of the biggest ever cases of bracket luck (still impressive though).
To Neeb's credit he did show proficiency in PvP by beating Stats who was the best PvPer in the world at the time. I'm sure we could find a tournament where the winner won by beating players who were very weak against the race of the winner, but strong in other match-ups.
How many other players are competitive exclusively in one matchup, and then win a premier tournament by playing almost only that? The difference in Neebs PvP compared to his vZ/T was ridiculous.
I don't wanna get into talking about how the meta was perfect for him, or how koreans just hadn't practiced that particular style or whatever, but it's still one of the luckiest runs of all time.
Admin on location here: start time on the TL calendar is wrong. We start 40 minutes from this post. Times on Liquipedia are correct as of this writing.
Also: later today I aim to make available the replays from the group stage and first day of playoffs. Finals will follow tomorrow.
On March 17 2018 06:10 Fango wrote: Serral isn't the clear favourate. The series they played at Katowice was the closest of the whole tournament.
Also on another note, Neeb has never beaten a korean terran, and the only one Serral has beaten was aphrodite lol
I don't understand why you're saying this about Neeb. He won a KeSPA Cup. What am I missing?
(Edit: Did he really not beat a single Korean terran in that run, or ever anywhere else? That's just weird if so.)
In kespa cup he faced only protoss and the two worst zergs in the tournament. Probably one of the biggest ever cases of bracket luck (still impressive though).
To Neeb's credit he did show proficiency in PvP by beating Stats who was the best PvPer in the world at the time. I'm sure we could find a tournament where the winner won by beating players who were very weak against the race of the winner, but strong in other match-ups.
How many other players are competitive exclusively in one matchup, and then win a premier tournament by playing almost only that? The difference in Neebs PvP compared to his vZ/T was ridiculous.
I don't wanna get into talking about how the meta was perfect for him, or how koreans just hadn't practiced that particular style or whatever, but it's still one of the luckiest runs of all time.
Jesus what is with the Neeb haters. If Neeb was Korean but won the exact same tournament in the exact same way nobody would dismiss his victory just because he got to play his best matchup. I don't understand how many times he has to prove himself before people will take him seriously. Personally I think Serral is better right now than Neeb ever was, and Serral's 2018 will most likely be even more dominant than Neeb was in 2017. Even if Neeb beats Serral now my opinion won't change on that. But that doesn't take anything away from what Neeb accomplished. At one moment in time Neeb was the best PvPer in the world and it was a great moment. He went on to earn more prize money in 2017 than any non Korean has ever earned in a single year. He's either extremely lucky or maybe he's actually good at Starcraft.
On March 17 2018 06:10 Fango wrote: Serral isn't the clear favourate. The series they played at Katowice was the closest of the whole tournament.
Also on another note, Neeb has never beaten a korean terran, and the only one Serral has beaten was aphrodite lol
I don't understand why you're saying this about Neeb. He won a KeSPA Cup. What am I missing?
(Edit: Did he really not beat a single Korean terran in that run, or ever anywhere else? That's just weird if so.)
In kespa cup he faced only protoss and the two worst zergs in the tournament. Probably one of the biggest ever cases of bracket luck (still impressive though).
To Neeb's credit he did show proficiency in PvP by beating Stats who was the best PvPer in the world at the time. I'm sure we could find a tournament where the winner won by beating players who were very weak against the race of the winner, but strong in other match-ups.
How many other players are competitive exclusively in one matchup, and then win a premier tournament by playing almost only that? The difference in Neebs PvP compared to his vZ/T was ridiculous.
I don't wanna get into talking about how the meta was perfect for him, or how koreans just hadn't practiced that particular style or whatever, but it's still one of the luckiest runs of all time.
Jesus what is with the Neeb haters. If Neeb was Korean but won the exact same tournament in the exact same way nobody would dismiss his victory just because he got to play his best matchup. I don't understand how many times he has to prove himself before people will take him seriously. Personally I think Serral is better right now than Neeb ever was, and Serral's 2018 will most likely be even more dominant than Neeb was in 2017. Even if Neeb beats Serral now my opinion won't change on that. But that doesn't take anything away from what Neeb accomplished. At one moment in time Neeb was the best PvPer in the world and it was a great moment. He went on to earn more prize money in 2017 than any non Korean has ever earned in a single year. He's either extremely lucky or maybe he's actually good at Starcraft.
Thats complete bullshit. If a Korean player was unable to compete (on the elite level) in 2/3 matchups and somehow won a tournament playing only the 1/3, in the only time where the meta allowed them to do so, they would be called the biggest patchtoss/bracket luck winner of all time. The only reason that win is remembered as anything special is because Neeb's American. He literally gets bonus treatment because he's a foreigner, not the other way around.
And before you think I'm some blind Neeb hater, I actually think he's better than Serral right now and still the best foreigner. He should have won the series they played at IEM if not for technical issues.
Well if we are going to talk about lucky runs, Zest's 2014 was built on his phenomenal PvP, other protosses eliminated zergs and terrans for him.. (And soO threw that final)
On March 17 2018 12:36 Morbidius wrote: Well if we are going to talk about lucky runs, Zest's 2014 was built on his phenomenal PvP, other protosses eliminated zergs and terrans for him.. (And soO threw that final)
PvP was his best matchup, but he was still the best PvZ player in the world. His 2014 run included beating Soulkey, soO, and Life (who were at the time the best zergs) multiple times.
Reynor is somehow playing better in the late game against a ghost army he can't beat, than in the midgame when he had a sizeable lead. Go figure. He's still dead though.
On March 17 2018 12:55 pvsnp wrote: Showed up when the Ultras did, did this Reynor kid really fight Maru straight-up to the lategame?
Maru lost his first two medivacs and was pretty behind. Afterwards he still got damage done against Reynor in the mid-game against some lackluster defense. Reynor powered tech though so he still had an edge, but he botched an ultra vs marine/tank defense, and was behind. Both of them did a good job at sniping expos in the late game, but Maru tech-ed to ghosts while Reynor was stuck on ultras.
So yeah Reynor did play straight up, but still didn't look too good in the midgame.
On March 17 2018 12:55 pvsnp wrote: Showed up when the Ultras did, did this Reynor kid really fight Maru straight-up to the lategame?
No. He had a huge lead early after getting both of Maru's first two medivacs then squandered that lead the entire game. He was close to making moves that would have possibly won him the game, but either miss timed things or move commanded hydras.
On March 17 2018 12:55 pvsnp wrote: Showed up when the Ultras did, did this Reynor kid really fight Maru straight-up to the lategame?
Maru lost his first two medivacs and was pretty behind. Afterwards he still got damage done against Reynor in the mid-game against some lackluster defense. Reynor powered tech though so he still had an edge, but he botched an ultra vs marine/tank defense, and was behind. Both of them did a good job at sniping expos in the late game, but Maru tech-ed to ghosts while Reynor was stuck on ultras.
So yeah Reynor did play straight up, but still didn't look too good in the midgame.
Ah, makes sense I was like whoa that's super impressive from a guy I've never heard of
On March 17 2018 12:55 pvsnp wrote: Showed up when the Ultras did, did this Reynor kid really fight Maru straight-up to the lategame?
No. He had a huge lead early after getting both of Maru's first two medivacs then squandered that lead the entire game. He was close to making moves that would have possibly won him the game, but either miss timed things or move commanded hydras.
On March 17 2018 12:55 pvsnp wrote: Showed up when the Ultras did, did this Reynor kid really fight Maru straight-up to the lategame?
Maru lost his first two medivacs and was pretty behind. Afterwards he still got damage done against Reynor in the mid-game against some lackluster defense. Reynor powered tech though so he still had an edge, but he botched an ultra vs marine/tank defense, and was behind. Both of them did a good job at sniping expos in the late game, but Maru tech-ed to ghosts while Reynor was stuck on ultras.
So yeah Reynor did play straight up, but still didn't look too good in the midgame.
Ah, makes sense I was like whoa that's super impressive from a guy I've never heard of
On March 17 2018 12:55 pvsnp wrote: Showed up when the Ultras did, did this Reynor kid really fight Maru straight-up to the lategame?
No. He had a huge lead early after getting both of Maru's first two medivacs then squandered that lead the entire game. He was close to making moves that would have possibly won him the game, but either miss timed things or move commanded hydras.
Ok, so he's good but not that good
Reynor's actually pretty good. The reason we don't hear more of him is because he can't play in WCS. He'll be able to play in Valencia and Montreal though so looking forward to that.
I am glad Reynor is continuing to improve. We rarely see new people approach top tier status (respectively among foreigners, or koreans). It tends to take a long time. It will be fun to see how far he can go in the time sc2 has left.
On March 17 2018 13:14 Boggyb wrote: If Maru plays the early game against Serral like he has in these first 2 games, he's going to be down 0-2.
Serral's ZvT is a huge unknown. I suspect it isn't that great since there aren't any good foreign terrans to practice against.
Is it? I think he beat Special at WCS or something?
As I recall he has a strong (for a foreigner) macro style
Yeah, but Reynor's also just beat Special who didn't look that good. Serral's assuredly better than Reynor vs T, but I'm not sure by how much.
I think it's a fairly safe assumption that Maru neither knew nor cared about Reynor before this series, so I imagine he'll be a little less careless against Serral
On March 17 2018 13:14 Boggyb wrote: If Maru plays the early game against Serral like he has in these first 2 games, he's going to be down 0-2.
Serral's ZvT is a huge unknown. I suspect it isn't that great since there aren't any good foreign terrans to practice against.
Is it? I think he beat Special at WCS or something?
As I recall he has a strong (for a foreigner) macro style
Yeah, but Reynor's also just beat Special who didn't look that good. Serral's assuredly better than Reynor vs T, but I'm not sure by how much.
I think it's a fairly safe assumption that Maru neither knew nor cared about Reynor before this series, so I imagine he'll be a little less careless against Serral
Maru being careful against a foreigner? Yeah, not happening.
On March 17 2018 13:14 Boggyb wrote: If Maru plays the early game against Serral like he has in these first 2 games, he's going to be down 0-2.
Serral's ZvT is a huge unknown. I suspect it isn't that great since there aren't any good foreign terrans to practice against.
Is it? I think he beat Special at WCS or something?
As I recall he has a strong (for a foreigner) macro style
Yeah, but Reynor's also just beat Special who didn't look that good. Serral's assuredly better than Reynor vs T, but I'm not sure by how much.
I think it's a fairly safe assumption that Maru neither knew nor cared about Reynor before this series, so I imagine he'll be a little less careless against Serral
Maru will probably be just as cocky against serral
On March 17 2018 13:14 Boggyb wrote: If Maru plays the early game against Serral like he has in these first 2 games, he's going to be down 0-2.
Serral's ZvT is a huge unknown. I suspect it isn't that great since there aren't any good foreign terrans to practice against.
Is it? I think he beat Special at WCS or something?
As I recall he has a strong (for a foreigner) macro style
Yeah, but Reynor's also just beat Special who didn't look that good. Serral's assuredly better than Reynor vs T, but I'm not sure by how much.
I think it's a fairly safe assumption that Maru neither knew nor cared about Reynor before this series, so I imagine he'll be a little less careless against Serral
Maru will probably be just as cocky against serral
Tbh we can tell that Maru is taking this relatively seriously since he isn't doing the same meme build every map.
On March 17 2018 13:25 pvsnp wrote: Korean arrogance is a real thing, but I can't believe Maru wouldn't take a little more care in the semifinals
A little humility for a lot of money is a good deal
When Maru is being arrogant, he's throwing out cheese after cheese or going for meme builds. Losing medivacs for free or morphing hellbats when his hellions are surrounded is not arrogance.
On March 17 2018 13:25 pvsnp wrote: Korean arrogance is a real thing, but I can't believe Maru wouldn't take a little more care in the semifinals
A little humility for a lot of money is a good deal
When Maru is being arrogant, he's throwing out cheese after cheese or going for meme builds. Losing medivacs for free or morphing hellbats when his hellions are surrounded is not arrogance.
Against Myungsik he didn't cheese but was playing definitely arrogant.
On March 17 2018 13:29 Boggyb wrote: I thought Reynor couldn't play in WCS tournaments since he wasn't 16 at the start of the year. Was that changed some time?
Blizzard gave in to community outrage and changed the rules to 16 at the start of the tourney
On March 17 2018 13:29 Boggyb wrote: I thought Reynor couldn't play in WCS tournaments since he wasn't 16 at the start of the year. Was that changed some time?
Yeah. People complained enough, so he'll be able to play in Valencia and Montreal (though not Austin). Likewise Clem and Future will be eligible for these tourneys.
On March 17 2018 13:30 Fango wrote: Maru could easily get cocky against Serral and lose. He dumpsters foreigners so often that he's probably used to barely trying.
On March 17 2018 13:30 Fango wrote: Maru could easily get cocky against Serral and lose. He dumpsters foreigners so often that he's probably used to barely trying.
I can see him dropping a map, but not the series
Maru would only start playing seriously when he's one map from losing. At which point Serral only has to win one map. It's doable.
I'm a bit perplexed that Neeb is letting Serral do the things he's amazing at: multi-prong attacking across large battlefronts, and controlling late game armies.
think Serral's figured out that spores mean zerg can dedicate pretty expensive units to runbys, which trades inordinately well with static defense (all protoss can afford, you need gas units to protect sky army from corruptor dives). So interestingly, by trading gas for minerals and time, serral depletes the bank of the protoss while building up the spore forest, at which point he's unbeatable
Think that's the idea anyhow. You see these really expensive zerg counterattacks with lurkers etc., but you can almost never imagine a protoss trying the same with his HT/archons. Carriers are just too irreplacable
On March 17 2018 14:07 yubo56 wrote: think Serral's figured out that spores mean zerg can dedicate pretty expensive units to runbys, which trades inordinately well with static defense (all protoss can afford, you need gas units to protect sky army from corruptor dives). So interestingly, by trading gas for minerals and time, serral depletes the bank of the protoss while building up the spore forest, at which point he's unbeatable
Think that's the idea anyhow. You see these really expensive zerg counterattacks with lurkers etc., but you can almost never imagine a protoss trying the same with his HT/archons. Carriers are just too irreplacable
Really cool and insightful style!
Lurkers drive Ferraris, compared to HT/Archons in Miatas
Haha guess the best analogy would be immortals? A really strong unit that you don't need with your core high-cost army. Guess the protoss equivalent of Serral's playstyle would be to use a lot more immortals going well into the lategame, both with executing runbys and defending runbys
On March 17 2018 14:10 yubo56 wrote: Haha guess the best analogy would be immortals? A really strong unit that you don't need with your core high-cost army. Guess the protoss equivalent of Serral's playstyle would be to use a lot more immortals going well into the lategame, both with executing runbys and defending runbys
On March 17 2018 14:10 yubo56 wrote: Haha guess the best analogy would be immortals? A really strong unit that you don't need with your core high-cost army. Guess the protoss equivalent of Serral's playstyle would be to use a lot more immortals going well into the lategame, both with executing runbys and defending runbys
Of course, you'd also need serral's mechanics...
Immortal run-bys would be a rather terrible idea.
If Tank run-bys are a thing, Immortal run-by sounds great
On March 17 2018 14:10 yubo56 wrote: Haha guess the best analogy would be immortals? A really strong unit that you don't need with your core high-cost army. Guess the protoss equivalent of Serral's playstyle would be to use a lot more immortals going well into the lategame, both with executing runbys and defending runbys
Of course, you'd also need serral's mechanics...
Immortal run-bys would be a rather terrible idea.
If Tank run-bys are a thing, Immortal run-by sounds great
Those tank run-bys weren't exactly stellar for uThermal.
Colossi are rather bad against ling/bane/muta/ravager I think. And they're already rather suspect against hydras which is what they are meant to be built against...
Not sure why people are jacking off over Serral's EPM. I've played against master 3 players who have more EPM than most pros, that statistic is absolutely meaningless.
On March 17 2018 14:10 yubo56 wrote: Haha guess the best analogy would be immortals? A really strong unit that you don't need with your core high-cost army. Guess the protoss equivalent of Serral's playstyle would be to use a lot more immortals going well into the lategame, both with executing runbys and defending runbys
Of course, you'd also need serral's mechanics...
Immortal run-bys would be a rather terrible idea.
I think so too! I'm not sure what the correct answer is though. By including a lurker or two w/ your roach runbys, you suddenly make zealot + cannon defenses extremely cost inefficient. I don't feel like Protoss has an equivalent unit off the top of my head... Serral's innovation in ZvP is kinda similar to the trend where people started including ultras in their runbys.
Idk, I guess protoss really doesn't have quite the same sort of unit huh ._.
On March 17 2018 14:26 youngjiddle wrote: the patch can't come fast enough.
you can't nerf skill
It's funny how all of these Zerg players have shot up in skill since December.
And Terrans and Protosses became shit at the game overnight, thank god Zergs like Serral and Scarlett are putting garbage like Innovation and sOs where they belong thru raw skill. Must be Kespa disband or training in korea.
On March 17 2018 14:26 youngjiddle wrote: the patch can't come fast enough.
you can't nerf skill
It's funny how all of these Zerg players have shot up in skill since December.
Serral was a top 3 foreign Zerg before the patch.
And? Not saying he's a patchzerg but there's a huge difference between top 3 foreign Zerg and being the undisputed best foreigner.
The best foreigner has pretty much always been a Zerg, so it's not too much of a leap.
Except the best foreigner for the past ~3 years has undisputedly been Neeb.. and we just saw him get dismantled with ease in a matchup with 43% winrate... I think we have our answer.
On March 17 2018 14:26 youngjiddle wrote: the patch can't come fast enough.
you can't nerf skill
It's funny how all of these Zerg players have shot up in skill since December.
Serral was a top 3 foreign Zerg before the patch.
And? Not saying he's a patchzerg but there's a huge difference between top 3 foreign Zerg and being the undisputed best foreigner.
The best foreigner has pretty much always been a Zerg, so it's not too much of a leap.
Except the best foreigner for the past ~3 years has undisputedly been Neeb.. and we just saw him get dismantled with ease in a matchup with 43% winrate... I think we have our answer.
Three years? Neeb wasn't anywhere close to the best anything in 2015.
On March 17 2018 14:26 youngjiddle wrote: the patch can't come fast enough.
you can't nerf skill
It's funny how all of these Zerg players have shot up in skill since December.
Serral was a top 3 foreign Zerg before the patch.
And? Not saying he's a patchzerg but there's a huge difference between top 3 foreign Zerg and being the undisputed best foreigner.
The best foreigner has pretty much always been a Zerg, so it's not too much of a leap.
Except the best foreigner for the past ~3 years has undisputedly been Neeb.. and we just saw him get dismantled with ease in a matchup with 43% winrate... I think we have our answer.
Three years? Neeb wasn't anywhere close to the best anything in 2015.
He was, but he was choosing the wrong race in lobbies.
On March 17 2018 14:26 youngjiddle wrote: the patch can't come fast enough.
you can't nerf skill
It's funny how all of these Zerg players have shot up in skill since December.
Serral was a top 3 foreign Zerg before the patch.
And? Not saying he's a patchzerg but there's a huge difference between top 3 foreign Zerg and being the undisputed best foreigner.
The best foreigner has pretty much always been a Zerg, so it's not too much of a leap.
Except the best foreigner for the past ~3 years has undisputedly been Neeb.. and we just saw him get dismantled with ease in a matchup with 43% winrate... I think we have our answer.
Three years? Neeb wasn't anywhere close to the best anything in 2015.
He was, but he was choosing the wrong race in lobbies.
Pretty sure he had already seen the Khala back in 2015.
I'd like to see Elazer go for a roach warren like Serral did. It just seems more stable than trying to hold everything with +1 lings especially against the way Classic plays.
On March 17 2018 14:26 youngjiddle wrote: the patch can't come fast enough.
you can't nerf skill
It's funny how all of these Zerg players have shot up in skill since December.
And Terrans and Protosses became shit at the game overnight, thank god Zergs like Serral and Scarlett are putting garbage like Innovation and sOs where they belong thru raw skill. Must be Kespa disband or training in korea.
That's just Scarlett.
But yeah surely this patch made Serral since before he was trash (just ask neeb) and barely winning against anyone, and a lot of the wins haven't been against other zergs.
On March 17 2018 14:53 ZigguratOfUr wrote: I'd like to see Elazer go for a roach warren like Serral did. It just seems more stable than trying to hold everything with +1 lings especially against the way Classic plays.
On March 17 2018 14:26 youngjiddle wrote: the patch can't come fast enough.
you can't nerf skill
It's funny how all of these Zerg players have shot up in skill since December.
Serral was a top 3 foreign Zerg before the patch.
And? Not saying he's a patchzerg but there's a huge difference between top 3 foreign Zerg and being the undisputed best foreigner.
The best foreigner has pretty much always been a Zerg, so it's not too much of a leap.
When was the last time the best foreigner was a Zerg before Serral. Snute in HotS?
Nerchio in 2016, and even in 2017 the top 5 were 4 Zergs with Neeb at the top.
I don't think Nerchio was ever the best foreigner, either Showtime or Neeb were always ahead of him.
I think he was the best foreigner in April-May 2016 in between Snute and Showtime. Also mid-2012 I think he was the best at some point in between Stephano's reign?
On March 17 2018 14:26 youngjiddle wrote: the patch can't come fast enough.
you can't nerf skill
It's funny how all of these Zerg players have shot up in skill since December.
And Terrans and Protosses became shit at the game overnight, thank god Zergs like Serral and Scarlett are putting garbage like Innovation and sOs where they belong thru raw skill. Must be Kespa disband or training in korea.
That's just Scarlett.
But yeah surely this patch made Serral since before he was trash (just ask neeb) and barely winning against anyone, and a lot of the wins haven't been against other zergs.
Only Scarlett is a patchzerg?
But premise is flawed since 4.0 was undeniably the best for Zerg. Just because specific Zergs aren't trash before the patch doesn't mean the patch had no effect.
On March 17 2018 14:26 youngjiddle wrote: the patch can't come fast enough.
you can't nerf skill
It's funny how all of these Zerg players have shot up in skill since December.
And Terrans and Protosses became shit at the game overnight, thank god Zergs like Serral and Scarlett are putting garbage like Innovation and sOs where they belong thru raw skill. Must be Kespa disband or training in korea.
That's just Scarlett.
But yeah surely this patch made Serral since before he was trash (just ask neeb) and barely winning against anyone, and a lot of the wins haven't been against other zergs.
Only Scarlett is a patchzerg?
But premise is flawed since 4.0 was undeniably the best for Zerg. Just because specific Zergs aren't trash before the patch doesn't mean the patch had no effect.
On March 17 2018 14:26 youngjiddle wrote: the patch can't come fast enough.
you can't nerf skill
It's funny how all of these Zerg players have shot up in skill since December.
Serral was a top 3 foreign Zerg before the patch.
And? Not saying he's a patchzerg but there's a huge difference between top 3 foreign Zerg and being the undisputed best foreigner.
The best foreigner has pretty much always been a Zerg, so it's not too much of a leap.
When was the last time the best foreigner was a Zerg before Serral. Snute in HotS?
Nerchio in 2016, and even in 2017 the top 5 were 4 Zergs with Neeb at the top.
I don't think Nerchio was ever the best foreigner, either Showtime or Neeb were always ahead of him.
I think he was the best foreigner in April-May 2016 in between Snute and Showtime. Also mid-2012 I think he was the best at some point in between Stephano's reign?
Winning a tounament doesnt make you the best for 3 months.
On March 17 2018 14:27 Nerchio wrote: [quote] you can't nerf skill
It's funny how all of these Zerg players have shot up in skill since December.
Serral was a top 3 foreign Zerg before the patch.
And? Not saying he's a patchzerg but there's a huge difference between top 3 foreign Zerg and being the undisputed best foreigner.
The best foreigner has pretty much always been a Zerg, so it's not too much of a leap.
When was the last time the best foreigner was a Zerg before Serral. Snute in HotS?
Nerchio in 2016, and even in 2017 the top 5 were 4 Zergs with Neeb at the top.
I don't think Nerchio was ever the best foreigner, either Showtime or Neeb were always ahead of him.
I think he was the best foreigner in April-May 2016 in between Snute and Showtime. Also mid-2012 I think he was the best at some point in between Stephano's reign?
Winning a tounament doesnt make you the best for 3 months.
Nerchio got top 4 in 4 out of 5 tournaments in the first half of of 2016, I'm pretty sure that makes him the best foreigner in that time span. Also, I forgot how terrible the WCS format was for 2016, that was probably the low point for SC2: 2 GSL's a year, matchfixing, end of Proleague, and 3 WCS championships. The only positive things I can remember from that year are Neeb's Kespa Cup run and Byun's return from the grave to win GSL and Blizzcon.
On March 17 2018 14:26 youngjiddle wrote: the patch can't come fast enough.
you can't nerf skill
It's funny how all of these Zerg players have shot up in skill since December.
And Terrans and Protosses became shit at the game overnight, thank god Zergs like Serral and Scarlett are putting garbage like Innovation and sOs where they belong thru raw skill. Must be Kespa disband or training in korea.
That's just Scarlett.
But yeah surely this patch made Serral since before he was trash (just ask neeb) and barely winning against anyone, and a lot of the wins haven't been against other zergs.
Only Scarlett is a patchzerg?
But premise is flawed since 4.0 was undeniably the best for Zerg. Just because specific Zergs aren't trash before the patch doesn't mean the patch had no effect.
Not sure. The examples you gave were all Scarlett.
It's good for him also sure, just feels like there's some hyperbole.
Damn, here I was thinking I'd still get to watch Serral vs Neeb now, but apparently the OP times were wrong and 3-0's don't help. Well, like I thought, he 3-0'ed Neeb without shitty PC issues.
Serral is so good at the moment. Most of the time player is dominant they also have favorable meta on their side. Serral is still the best foreigner at the moment
On March 17 2018 15:29 pvsnp wrote: Maru is literally solo carrying Terran atm
Yknow the guy who is arguably most famous for his amazing blink-era performance. The guy renowned for doing well when Terran isn't.
He got nicknamed the Fourth Race for a reason.
If Maru is carrying Terran, than Rogue is carrying Zerg, at least in Korea. The last time a Zerg won a tournament with more than 2 Koreans in it that wasn't Rogue was when Dark won the Cross Finals in September 2016.
On March 17 2018 15:29 pvsnp wrote: Maru is literally solo carrying Terran atm
Yknow the guy who is arguably most famous for his amazing blink-era performance. The guy renowned for doing well when Terran isn't.
He got nicknamed the Fourth Race for a reason.
If Maru is carrying Terran, than Rogue is carrying Zerg, at least in Korea. The last time a Zerg won a tournament with more than 2 Koreans in it that wasn't Rogue was when Dark won the Cross Finals in September 2016.
Except that Zergs have actually been doing just fine in tournaments until soO chokes in the finals. And now that Zerg has very literally won every single major tournament since September 2017, I think they're doing more than fine.
Whereas Maru is literally the only Terran in the playoffs multiple tournaments in a row.
On March 17 2018 15:29 pvsnp wrote: Maru is literally solo carrying Terran atm
Yknow the guy who is arguably most famous for his amazing blink-era performance. The guy renowned for doing well when Terran isn't.
He got nicknamed the Fourth Race for a reason.
If Maru is carrying Terran, than Rogue is carrying Zerg, at least in Korea. The last time a Zerg won a tournament with more than 2 Koreans in it that wasn't Rogue was when Dark won the Cross Finals in September 2016.
That's because soO and Dark always lose in the finals
On March 17 2018 15:29 pvsnp wrote: Maru is literally solo carrying Terran atm
Yknow the guy who is arguably most famous for his amazing blink-era performance. The guy renowned for doing well when Terran isn't.
He got nicknamed the Fourth Race for a reason.
If Maru is carrying Terran, than Rogue is carrying Zerg, at least in Korea. The last time a Zerg won a tournament with more than 2 Koreans in it that wasn't Rogue was when Dark won the Cross Finals in September 2016.
I mean Rogue ZvZed out soO at Blizzcon. So the highly specific tournament criteria you're cherrypicking don't sound that great.
On March 17 2018 15:29 pvsnp wrote: Maru is literally solo carrying Terran atm
Yknow the guy who is arguably most famous for his amazing blink-era performance. The guy renowned for doing well when Terran isn't.
He got nicknamed the Fourth Race for a reason.
If Maru is carrying Terran, than Rogue is carrying Zerg, at least in Korea. The last time a Zerg won a tournament with more than 2 Koreans in it that wasn't Rogue was when Dark won the Cross Finals in September 2016.
I do like how this specific wording conveniently leaves out Scarlett's victory.
On March 17 2018 15:29 pvsnp wrote: Maru is literally solo carrying Terran atm
Yknow the guy who is arguably most famous for his amazing blink-era performance. The guy renowned for doing well when Terran isn't.
He got nicknamed the Fourth Race for a reason.
If Maru is carrying Terran, than Rogue is carrying Zerg, at least in Korea. The last time a Zerg won a tournament with more than 2 Koreans in it that wasn't Rogue was when Dark won the Cross Finals in September 2016.
I mean Rogue ZvZed out soO at Blizzcon. So the highly specific tournament criteria you're cherrypicking don't sound that great.
I'm not sure how filtering out the tournaments that aren't at the highest skill level is cherry picking. soO basically got a free road to the finals, beating an out-of-form GuMiho and rolling over Special, while Rogue had to beat TY.
Whereas Maru is literally the only Terran in the playoffs multiple tournaments in a row.
Perhaps you could name these tournaments?
GSL ring a bell? I hear it's kind of a big deal.
Aside from that we had Katowice (apparently TY so it was 2/12 instead of 1/8) and of course WESG.
We expect Zerg to do disproportionately well in the foreign scene. It's when they do disproportionately well everywhere that it becomes a balance issue.
On March 17 2018 15:29 pvsnp wrote: Maru is literally solo carrying Terran atm
Yknow the guy who is arguably most famous for his amazing blink-era performance. The guy renowned for doing well when Terran isn't.
He got nicknamed the Fourth Race for a reason.
If Maru is carrying Terran, than Rogue is carrying Zerg, at least in Korea. The last time a Zerg won a tournament with more than 2 Koreans in it that wasn't Rogue was when Dark won the Cross Finals in September 2016.
I do like how this specific wording conveniently leaves out Scarlett's victory.
IEM was basically a WCS event, let's be honest. And if a foreign Zerg is doing a better job of beating Koreans than Korean Zergs are, than the race is weak in Korea.
On March 17 2018 15:29 pvsnp wrote: Maru is literally solo carrying Terran atm
Yknow the guy who is arguably most famous for his amazing blink-era performance. The guy renowned for doing well when Terran isn't.
He got nicknamed the Fourth Race for a reason.
If Maru is carrying Terran, than Rogue is carrying Zerg, at least in Korea. The last time a Zerg won a tournament with more than 2 Koreans in it that wasn't Rogue was when Dark won the Cross Finals in September 2016.
I mean Rogue ZvZed out soO at Blizzcon. So the highly specific tournament criteria you're cherrypicking don't sound that great.
I'm not sure how filtering out the tournaments that aren't at the highest skill level is cherry picking. soO basically got a free road to the finals, beating an out-of-form GuMiho and rolling over Special, while Rogue had to beat TY.
If you include qualifiers which are a part of a tournament Pyeongchang had more than 2 koreans. But I guess it doesn't count because it doesn't fit your narrative
On March 17 2018 15:29 pvsnp wrote: Maru is literally solo carrying Terran atm
Yknow the guy who is arguably most famous for his amazing blink-era performance. The guy renowned for doing well when Terran isn't.
He got nicknamed the Fourth Race for a reason.
If Maru is carrying Terran, than Rogue is carrying Zerg, at least in Korea. The last time a Zerg won a tournament with more than 2 Koreans in it that wasn't Rogue was when Dark won the Cross Finals in September 2016.
I do like how this specific wording conveniently leaves out Scarlett's victory.
IEM was basically a WCS event, let's be honest.
When a zerg wins it its a tier 2 event with lots of foreigners(IEM, Blizzcon), when T or P wins... I don't know what it is, because they havem't won shit in 6 months.
On March 17 2018 15:29 pvsnp wrote: Maru is literally solo carrying Terran atm
Yknow the guy who is arguably most famous for his amazing blink-era performance. The guy renowned for doing well when Terran isn't.
He got nicknamed the Fourth Race for a reason.
If Maru is carrying Terran, than Rogue is carrying Zerg, at least in Korea. The last time a Zerg won a tournament with more than 2 Koreans in it that wasn't Rogue was when Dark won the Cross Finals in September 2016.
I mean Rogue ZvZed out soO at Blizzcon. So the highly specific tournament criteria you're cherrypicking don't sound that great.
I'm not sure how filtering out the tournaments that aren't at the highest skill level is cherry picking. soO basically got a free road to the finals, beating an out-of-form GuMiho and rolling over Special, while Rogue had to beat TY.
If you include qualifiers which are a part of a tournament Pyeongchang had more than 2 koreans. But I guess it doesn't count because it doesn't fit your narrative
Since when have qualifiers that were held online a month and a half before the tournament been part of it?
On March 17 2018 15:29 pvsnp wrote: Maru is literally solo carrying Terran atm
Yknow the guy who is arguably most famous for his amazing blink-era performance. The guy renowned for doing well when Terran isn't.
He got nicknamed the Fourth Race for a reason.
If Maru is carrying Terran, than Rogue is carrying Zerg, at least in Korea. The last time a Zerg won a tournament with more than 2 Koreans in it that wasn't Rogue was when Dark won the Cross Finals in September 2016.
I do like how this specific wording conveniently leaves out Scarlett's victory.
IEM was basically a WCS event, let's be honest.
When a zerg wins it its a tier 2 event with lots of foreigners(IEM, Blizzcon), when T or P wins... I don't know what it is, because they havem't won shit in 6 months.
That's Olimoleague, a full kor tournament :
OlimoLeague Week #109 won by herO 2018-01-09 OlimoLeague Week #110 won by Innovation 2018-01-15 OlimoLeague Week #111 won by herO 2018-01-23 Monthly Finals January won by herO 2018-01-30 OlimoLeague Week #112 won by GuMiho 2018-02-13 OlimoLeague Week #113 won by herO 2018-02-20 Monthly Finals January February won by Zest 2018-03-13 OlimoLeague Week #114 won by Zest 2018-03-06
Don't know how Scarlett will hold. Eventually, Dark will kill all the spines, all the while making Scarlett's army worse and worse by getting more roaches and queens and spores.
On March 17 2018 15:29 pvsnp wrote: Maru is literally solo carrying Terran atm
Yknow the guy who is arguably most famous for his amazing blink-era performance. The guy renowned for doing well when Terran isn't.
He got nicknamed the Fourth Race for a reason.
If Maru is carrying Terran, than Rogue is carrying Zerg, at least in Korea. The last time a Zerg won a tournament with more than 2 Koreans in it that wasn't Rogue was when Dark won the Cross Finals in September 2016.
I do like how this specific wording conveniently leaves out Scarlett's victory.
IEM was basically a WCS event, let's be honest.
When a zerg wins it its a tier 2 event with lots of foreigners(IEM, Blizzcon), when T or P wins... I don't know what it is, because they havem't won shit in 6 months.
That's Olimoleague, a full kor tournament :
OlimoLeague Week #109 won by herO 2018-01-09 OlimoLeague Week #110 won by Innovation 2018-01-15 OlimoLeague Week #111 won by herO 2018-01-23 Monthly Finals January won by herO 2018-01-30 OlimoLeague Week #112 won by GuMiho 2018-02-13 OlimoLeague Week #113 won by herO 2018-02-20 Monthly Finals January February won by Zest 2018-03-13 OlimoLeague Week #114 won by Zest 2018-03-06
It's always puzzled me how so many top terrans and protosses regularly participate in Olimoleague, but top zerg participation has been lacking (Solar and Impact participate often. Rogue occasionally, but I think Dark or soO seldom if ever do?) .
On March 17 2018 15:29 pvsnp wrote: Maru is literally solo carrying Terran atm
Yknow the guy who is arguably most famous for his amazing blink-era performance. The guy renowned for doing well when Terran isn't.
He got nicknamed the Fourth Race for a reason.
If Maru is carrying Terran, than Rogue is carrying Zerg, at least in Korea. The last time a Zerg won a tournament with more than 2 Koreans in it that wasn't Rogue was when Dark won the Cross Finals in September 2016.
I do like how this specific wording conveniently leaves out Scarlett's victory.
IEM was basically a WCS event, let's be honest.
When a zerg wins it its a tier 2 event with lots of foreigners(IEM, Blizzcon), when T or P wins... I don't know what it is, because they havem't won shit in 6 months.
That's Olimoleague, a full kor tournament :
OlimoLeague Week #109 won by herO 2018-01-09 OlimoLeague Week #110 won by Innovation 2018-01-15 OlimoLeague Week #111 won by herO 2018-01-23 Monthly Finals January won by herO 2018-01-30 OlimoLeague Week #112 won by GuMiho 2018-02-13 OlimoLeague Week #113 won by herO 2018-02-20 Monthly Finals January February won by Zest 2018-03-13 OlimoLeague Week #114 won by Zest 2018-03-06
It's always puzzled me how so many top terrans and protosses regularly participate in Olimoleague, but top zerg participation has been lacking (Solar and Impact participate often. Rogue occasionally, but I don't think Dark or soO often do?) .
Ex-SKT players rarely play online tournaments, Impact being an exception. INno participates occasionally like Rogue, but unfortunately with Dark and soO never playing online basically, we lose two top zergs in olimoleagues
On March 17 2018 16:01 HolydaKing wrote: like i thought, mutas scouted = gg, they are garbage if you know they come.
They're garbage if you build any sort of anti-air. I think they only unit with an anti-air attack that loses a fight to Mutas are Sentries, and even that might not be guaranteed with Guardian Shield.
On March 17 2018 16:01 HolydaKing wrote: like i thought, mutas scouted = gg, they are garbage if you know they come.
They're garbage if you build any sort of anti-air. I think they only unit with an anti-air attack that loses a fight to Mutas are Sentries, and even that might not be guaranteed with Guardian Shield.
Cyclones
Also mutas aren't supposed to win straight up fights
On March 17 2018 15:29 pvsnp wrote: Maru is literally solo carrying Terran atm
Yknow the guy who is arguably most famous for his amazing blink-era performance. The guy renowned for doing well when Terran isn't.
He got nicknamed the Fourth Race for a reason.
If Maru is carrying Terran, than Rogue is carrying Zerg, at least in Korea. The last time a Zerg won a tournament with more than 2 Koreans in it that wasn't Rogue was when Dark won the Cross Finals in September 2016.
I do like how this specific wording conveniently leaves out Scarlett's victory.
IEM was basically a WCS event, let's be honest.
When a zerg wins it its a tier 2 event with lots of foreigners(IEM, Blizzcon), when T or P wins... I don't know what it is, because they havem't won shit in 6 months.
That's Olimoleague, a full kor tournament :
OlimoLeague Week #109 won by herO 2018-01-09 OlimoLeague Week #110 won by Innovation 2018-01-15 OlimoLeague Week #111 won by herO 2018-01-23 Monthly Finals January won by herO 2018-01-30 OlimoLeague Week #112 won by GuMiho 2018-02-13 OlimoLeague Week #113 won by herO 2018-02-20 Monthly Finals January February won by Zest 2018-03-13 OlimoLeague Week #114 won by Zest 2018-03-06
It's always puzzled me how so many top terrans and protosses regularly participate in Olimoleague, but top zerg participation has been lacking (Solar and Impact participate often. Rogue occasionally, but I think Dark or soO seldom if ever do?) .
Dunno, the cash prize is also really small (100$ for the winnner), while it's harder than a WCS event ^^
On March 17 2018 16:01 HolydaKing wrote: like i thought, mutas scouted = gg, they are garbage if you know they come.
They're garbage if you build any sort of anti-air. I think they only unit with an anti-air attack that loses a fight to Mutas are Sentries, and even that might not be guaranteed with Guardian Shield.
On March 17 2018 16:01 HolydaKing wrote: like i thought, mutas scouted = gg, they are garbage if you know they come.
They're garbage if you build any sort of anti-air. I think they only unit with an anti-air attack that loses a fight to Mutas are Sentries, and even that might not be guaranteed with Guardian Shield.
Cyclones
What happens if rapid fire launchers is researched?
On March 17 2018 16:01 HolydaKing wrote: like i thought, mutas scouted = gg, they are garbage if you know they come.
They're garbage if you build any sort of anti-air. I think they only unit with an anti-air attack that loses a fight to Mutas are Sentries, and even that might not be guaranteed with Guardian Shield.
On March 17 2018 16:01 HolydaKing wrote: like i thought, mutas scouted = gg, they are garbage if you know they come.
They're garbage if you build any sort of anti-air. I think they only unit with an anti-air attack that loses a fight to Mutas are Sentries, and even that might not be guaranteed with Guardian Shield.
Cyclones
What happens if rapid fire launchers is researched?
With good kiting maybe cyclones win but that requires enough space to kite.
Scarlett earned the respect with that iem champion for koreans to mix it up against her. She should feel good about this. Classic did the same vs Serral.
On March 17 2018 16:01 HolydaKing wrote: like i thought, mutas scouted = gg, they are garbage if you know they come.
They're garbage if you build any sort of anti-air. I think they only unit with an anti-air attack that loses a fight to Mutas are Sentries, and even that might not be guaranteed with Guardian Shield.
Cyclones
Cyclones vs Mutas has never, ever happened
Not in pro games maybe, but on ladder yeah. Mutas are very good vs cyclon, but you don't build them as thors hard counter them and mutas are very expensive.
On March 17 2018 16:11 yangluphil wrote: Scarlett earned the respect with that iem champion for koreans to mix it up against her. She should feel good about this. Classic did the same vs Serral.
You stop to underestimate someone when she has beaten Rogue, Innovation and sOs
On March 17 2018 16:11 yangluphil wrote: Scarlett earned the respect with that iem champion for koreans to mix it up against her. She should feel good about this. Classic did the same vs Serral.
You stop to underestimate someone when she has beaten Rogue, Innovation and sOs
Did you know that Cure has also beaten Rogue, INnoVation and sOs?
On March 17 2018 16:11 yangluphil wrote: Scarlett earned the respect with that iem champion for koreans to mix it up against her. She should feel good about this. Classic did the same vs Serral.
You stop to underestimate someone when she has beaten Rogue, Innovation and sOs
You should stop overestimating someone when they've lost to Namshar, Guru, and TRUE
On March 17 2018 16:11 yangluphil wrote: Scarlett earned the respect with that iem champion for koreans to mix it up against her. She should feel good about this. Classic did the same vs Serral.
You stop to underestimate someone when she has beaten Rogue, Innovation and sOs
Did you know that Cure has also beaten Rogue, INnoVation and sOs?
How bad is Serral's ZvT? It's his weakest match up on Aligulac but I still want to believe. His vs KR terran stats aren't promising, but at least he won vs Maru recently. :D
On March 17 2018 16:19 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Damn, what a smack down. I stayed up to 1am for this shit
I know, it was worth it, right?
No, I really just need to accept that when I stay up to watch her she loses. When I pas out before she plays Nerchio she wins easily. It's my fault really.
On March 17 2018 16:11 yangluphil wrote: Scarlett earned the respect with that iem champion for koreans to mix it up against her. She should feel good about this. Classic did the same vs Serral.
You stop to underestimate someone when she has beaten Rogue, Innovation and sOs
Exactly, those three all played the series vs Scarlett in a way as if she's way below their level, which gave Scarlett a bigger chance. Dark and SoO took a bit more seriously. Another example was Nerchio talking trash about Koreans before Kespa cup (the one that Neeb won), and Maru took it all out in the series vs him. It look ugly but in reality that's where you get to experience real korean competition, which is good.
On March 17 2018 16:23 HolydaKing wrote: How bad is Serral's ZvT? It's his weakest match up on Aligulac but I still want to believe. His vs KR terran stats aren't promising, but at least he won vs Maru recently. :D
It's quite good, he plays a defensive macro style with counters
But Maru's not exactly your average Terran, so.....
On March 17 2018 16:23 HolydaKing wrote: How bad is Serral's ZvT? It's his weakest match up on Aligulac but I still want to believe. His vs KR terran stats aren't promising, but at least he won vs Maru recently. :D
It's a big question mark. And the win vs Maru is meaningless since Maru was playing on EU.
On March 17 2018 16:23 HolydaKing wrote: How bad is Serral's ZvT? It's his weakest match up on Aligulac but I still want to believe. His vs KR terran stats aren't promising, but at least he won vs Maru recently. :D
He looked really impressive last year against Byun, Innovation and Gumiho even though he lost
On March 17 2018 16:23 HolydaKing wrote: How bad is Serral's ZvT? It's his weakest match up on Aligulac but I still want to believe. His vs KR terran stats aren't promising, but at least he won vs Maru recently. :D
On March 17 2018 16:19 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Damn, what a smack down. I stayed up to 1am for this shit
I know, it was worth it, right?
No, I really just need to accept that when I stay up to watch her she loses. When I pas out before she plays Nerchio she wins easily. It's my fault really.
NoRegret is trying to convince me in twitch chat that Scarlett is favored vs Dark in a late game and all I can do is question why I ever trusted his coaching abilities.
Noregret is not a bad coach from what I've seen, but his strategies inevitably rely on cheesy timings. Once you score some major upsets and gain notoriety in the scene, players start taking you seriously and your winrate plummets.
Unless you're sOs, then you keep winning and everyone just hates you
Also it's really hard to cheese in ZvZ since opening standard is itself cheese
On March 17 2018 16:23 HolydaKing wrote: How bad is Serral's ZvT? It's his weakest match up on Aligulac but I still want to believe. His vs KR terran stats aren't promising, but at least he won vs Maru recently. :D
Obligatory BUNNYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
I'm still disappointed we never got the Liquid.Bunny vs CJ.Bunny match before the Danish Bunny retired.
On March 17 2018 16:19 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Damn, what a smack down. I stayed up to 1am for this shit
I know, it was worth it, right?
No, I really just need to accept that when I stay up to watch her she loses. When I pas out before she plays Nerchio she wins easily. It's my fault really.
NoRegret is trying to convince me in twitch chat that Scarlett is favored vs Dark in a late game and all I can do is question why I ever trusted his coaching abilities.
Noregret is not a bad coach from what I've seen, but his strategies inevitably rely on cheesy timings. Once you score some major upsets and gain notoriety in the scene, players start taking you seriously and your winrate plummets.
Unless you're sOs, then you keep winning and everyone just hates you
sOs' builds were always changing to the point where you can never expect what's coming, but NoRegret's generally just involve lots of Zerglings. It's mostly just a difference in the design of the two races.
On March 17 2018 16:11 yangluphil wrote: Scarlett earned the respect with that iem champion for koreans to mix it up against her. She should feel good about this. Classic did the same vs Serral.
You stop to underestimate someone when she has beaten Rogue, Innovation and sOs
Did you know that Cure has also beaten Rogue, INnoVation and sOs?
It's not that surprising, Cure is Jin Air and trains with Rogue, sOs and Maru.
But yeah, creator is jin air too, not the perfect example xd
On March 17 2018 16:19 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Damn, what a smack down. I stayed up to 1am for this shit
I know, it was worth it, right?
No, I really just need to accept that when I stay up to watch her she loses. When I pas out before she plays Nerchio she wins easily. It's my fault really.
NoRegret is trying to convince me in twitch chat that Scarlett is favored vs Dark in a late game and all I can do is question why I ever trusted his coaching abilities.
Noregret is not a bad coach from what I've seen, but his strategies inevitably rely on cheesy timings. Once you score some major upsets and gain notoriety in the scene, players start taking you seriously and your winrate plummets.
Unless you're sOs, then you keep winning and everyone just hates you
sOs' builds were always changing to the point where you can never expect what's coming, but NoRegret's generally just involve lots of Zerglings. It's mostly just a difference in the design of the two races.
What sOs comes up with isn't necessarily good tbf. I remember some absolutely terrible builds that he pulled out at the cross-finals.
Though come to think of it one of them involved carriers. So maybe he was just ahead of his time (this was pre-3.8).
On March 17 2018 16:11 yangluphil wrote: Scarlett earned the respect with that iem champion for koreans to mix it up against her. She should feel good about this. Classic did the same vs Serral.
You stop to underestimate someone when she has beaten Rogue, Innovation and sOs
Did you know that Cure has also beaten Rogue, INnoVation and sOs?
It's not that surprising, Cure is Jin Air and trains with Rogue, sOs and Maru.
But yeah, creator is jin air too, not the perfect example xd
On March 17 2018 16:19 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Damn, what a smack down. I stayed up to 1am for this shit
I know, it was worth it, right?
No, I really just need to accept that when I stay up to watch her she loses. When I pas out before she plays Nerchio she wins easily. It's my fault really.
NoRegret is trying to convince me in twitch chat that Scarlett is favored vs Dark in a late game and all I can do is question why I ever trusted his coaching abilities.
Noregret is not a bad coach from what I've seen, but his strategies inevitably rely on cheesy timings. Once you score some major upsets and gain notoriety in the scene, players start taking you seriously and your winrate plummets.
Unless you're sOs, then you keep winning and everyone just hates you
sOs' builds were always changing to the point where you can never expect what's coming, but NoRegret's generally just involve lots of Zerglings. It's mostly just a difference in the design of the two races.
Also sOs is able to play quite solid macro games. Not on the level of Stats or Classic but you have to take it seriously.
I think Serral is good enough on paper. But I don't think he has enough experience against truly good Terrans (or truly great aggressive playstyle) so Maru has massive edge here. Serral needs to practice in Korea to take his game to the next level. Foreigners play too soft.
On March 17 2018 16:11 yangluphil wrote: Scarlett earned the respect with that iem champion for koreans to mix it up against her. She should feel good about this. Classic did the same vs Serral.
You stop to underestimate someone when she has beaten Rogue, Innovation and sOs
Did you know that Cure has also beaten Rogue, INnoVation and sOs?
It's not that surprising, Cure is Jin Air and trains with Rogue, sOs and Maru.
But yeah, creator is jin air too, not the perfect example xd
On March 17 2018 16:33 yangluphil wrote: I think Serral is good enough on paper. But I don't think he has enough experience against truly good Terrans (or truly great aggressive playstyle) so Maru has massive edge here. Serral needs to practice in Korea to take his game to the next level. Foreigners play too soft.
Yup. Last time he was in Korea he felt that he improved especially vs T.
Now I'll be happy with a competitive series against Maru.
On March 17 2018 16:45 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Beautiful trick. Makes me sad that terrans never pick up SCVs in their CCs and PFs when facing harass.
Unfortunately, most harass comes too late and you usually have orbitals by that time which can't pick up SCVs. As for planetaries, if they can't defend your SCVs from the harass, it probably means they're gonna die anyway
Regardless of balance, just like burrow fungal, and insta cast fungal, this mass raven style looks really stupid. I like the ability idea. Just nerf damage. Terran can fight late game without an insta cast 30 damage a shot bomb
On March 17 2018 17:08 Parrek wrote: Regardless of balance, just like burrow fungal, and insta cast fungal, this mass raven style looks really stupid. I like the ability idea. Just nerf damage. Terran can fight late game without an insta cast 30 damage a shot bomb
On March 17 2018 17:08 Parrek wrote: Regardless of balance, just like burrow fungal, and insta cast fungal, this mass raven style looks really stupid. I like the ability idea. Just nerf damage. Terran can fight late game without an insta cast 30 damage a shot bomb
no they can't
On Eastwatch you totally can. Ghosts alone dominate this map's lategame.
And Maru is being incredibly cinematic. Those battlecruisers yamatoing the hatch, and mass nukes? Just sexy.
On March 17 2018 17:08 Parrek wrote: Regardless of balance, just like burrow fungal, and insta cast fungal, this mass raven style looks really stupid. I like the ability idea. Just nerf damage. Terran can fight late game without an insta cast 30 damage a shot bomb
no they can't
Ghost/Liberator is really strong even without the raven, not to mention the anti-armor missile is very useful whether or not it deals damage (Liberator splash against no armor is insane).
On March 17 2018 17:08 Parrek wrote: Regardless of balance, just like burrow fungal, and insta cast fungal, this mass raven style looks really stupid. I like the ability idea. Just nerf damage. Terran can fight late game without an insta cast 30 damage a shot bomb
no they can't
On Eastwatch you totally can. Ghosts alone dominate this map's lategame.
And Maru is being incredibly cinematic. Those battlecruisers yamatoing the hatch, and mass nukes? Just sexy.
As someone who hasn't played for a year or two and isn't aware of the meta, why are seeker missiles seemingly instant now?
Not a balance whine, but what do zergs do for AA now, with terran air seemingly stronger, and infestors and vipers weaker? I don't really understand how it works.
On March 17 2018 17:08 Parrek wrote: Regardless of balance, just like burrow fungal, and insta cast fungal, this mass raven style looks really stupid. I like the ability idea. Just nerf damage. Terran can fight late game without an insta cast 30 damage a shot bomb
no they can't
On Eastwatch you totally can. Ghosts alone dominate this map's lategame.
And Maru is being incredibly cinematic. Those battlecruisers yamatoing the hatch, and mass nukes? Just sexy.
On March 17 2018 17:11 theunabletable wrote: As someone who hasn't played for a year or two and isn't aware of the meta, why are seeker missiles seemingly instant now?
Not a balance whine, but what do zergs do for AA now, with terran air seemingly stronger, and infestors and vipers weaker? I don't really understand how it works.
You try to win before there's maxed terran army with ghost and raven or you don't
On March 17 2018 17:11 theunabletable wrote: As someone who hasn't played for a year or two and isn't aware of the meta, why are seeker missiles seemingly instant now?
Not a balance whine, but what do zergs do for AA now, with terran air seemingly stronger, and infestors and vipers weaker? I don't really understand how it works.
The new missiles do 30 splash damage instead of 100
And Vipers have 120-damage Parasitic Bomb now. Infested Terrans shred air but are rarely used (because of hatch time)
On March 17 2018 17:11 theunabletable wrote: As someone who hasn't played for a year or two and isn't aware of the meta, why are seeker missiles seemingly instant now?
Not a balance whine, but what do zergs do for AA now, with terran air seemingly stronger, and infestors and vipers weaker? I don't really understand how it works.
You need to kill the terran before it happens, apparently.
On March 17 2018 17:11 theunabletable wrote: As someone who hasn't played for a year or two and isn't aware of the meta, why are seeker missiles seemingly instant now?
Not a balance whine, but what do zergs do for AA now, with terran air seemingly stronger, and infestors and vipers weaker? I don't really understand how it works.
You need to kill the terran before it happens, apparently.
On March 17 2018 17:08 Parrek wrote: Regardless of balance, just like burrow fungal, and insta cast fungal, this mass raven style looks really stupid. I like the ability idea. Just nerf damage. Terran can fight late game without an insta cast 30 damage a shot bomb
no they can't
On Eastwatch you totally can. Ghosts alone dominate this map's lategame.
And Maru is being incredibly cinematic. Those battlecruisers yamatoing the hatch, and mass nukes? Just sexy.
Ghosts get denied by fungal
Ghosts have snipe and EMP.
Every single super late game TvZ on Eastwatch I've ever seen has been won by ghosts. This map's layout is just amazing for them.
I think Serral lacked of vision, what i like to do lategame vs T is a lot of overseer and send waves of changelins, then you don't get surprised by his raven army suddendly launching a lot of missiles.
On March 17 2018 17:08 Parrek wrote: Regardless of balance, just like burrow fungal, and insta cast fungal, this mass raven style looks really stupid. I like the ability idea. Just nerf damage. Terran can fight late game without an insta cast 30 damage a shot bomb
no they can't
Thank you for the enlightening and interesting reasons. At a pro level, Terran hasn't been completely useless in late game ever. Even in the height of HotS TvP where Terrans SCV pulled and mass dropped, there were Terrans who could legitimately fight late game. That was before we got liberators that can absolutely allow Terran to fight protoss, and we got colossus nerfed hard along with all the other changes. All the biggest things that allow other races to destroy Terran in late game got nerfed in some way. Anti armor missile stopped 8 armor ultras. Burrow fungal is gone, and now slows instead of stuns which makes it much weaker. Liberator ghost can give real area control in late game, colossus storm is nerfed hard as a style, disruptors got nerfed, tempests got nerfed a long time ago, and more. Even without the armor missile, Terran are in a better spot in late game than they have ever been.
On March 17 2018 17:11 theunabletable wrote: As someone who hasn't played for a year or two and isn't aware of the meta, why are seeker missiles seemingly instant now?
Not a balance whine, but what do zergs do for AA now, with terran air seemingly stronger, and infestors and vipers weaker? I don't really understand how it works.
You need to kill the terran before it happens, apparently.
unacceptable, it should be the other way again
What comp did Zerg have after burrow fungal and 8 armor ultras were nerfed that was really that way?
On March 17 2018 17:11 theunabletable wrote: As someone who hasn't played for a year or two and isn't aware of the meta, why are seeker missiles seemingly instant now?
Not a balance whine, but what do zergs do for AA now, with terran air seemingly stronger, and infestors and vipers weaker? I don't really understand how it works.
You need to kill the terran before it happens, apparently.
unacceptable, it should be the other way again
What comp did Zerg have after burrow fungal and 8 armor ultras were nerfed that was really that way?
On March 17 2018 17:11 theunabletable wrote: As someone who hasn't played for a year or two and isn't aware of the meta, why are seeker missiles seemingly instant now?
Not a balance whine, but what do zergs do for AA now, with terran air seemingly stronger, and infestors and vipers weaker? I don't really understand how it works.
You need to kill the terran before it happens, apparently.
unacceptable, it should be the other way again
What comp did Zerg have after burrow fungal and 8 armor ultras were nerfed that was really that way?
Broodlord Infestor Viper
That was never unstoppable? And really, with all the changes to the viper and infestor, I haven't seen that comp be unstoppable in a long time
On March 17 2018 17:24 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Solid play from Maru. His transition timings are fantastic too. Gone are the days where Maru just went marine/marauder forever or died trying.
On March 17 2018 17:11 theunabletable wrote: As someone who hasn't played for a year or two and isn't aware of the meta, why are seeker missiles seemingly instant now?
Not a balance whine, but what do zergs do for AA now, with terran air seemingly stronger, and infestors and vipers weaker? I don't really understand how it works.
You need to kill the terran before it happens, apparently.
unacceptable, it should be the other way again
What comp did Zerg have after burrow fungal and 8 armor ultras were nerfed that was really that way?
Broodlord Infestor Viper
That was never unstoppable? And really, with all the changes to the viper and infestor, I haven't seen that comp be unstoppable in a long time
Vipers are still kinda bullshit with 120 damage parasitic bomb.
On March 17 2018 17:24 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Solid play from Maru. His transition timings are fantastic too. Gone are the days where Maru just went marine/marauder forever or died trying.
He did it vs Nerchio on this map yesterday.
Did he?
Hmm... Well I said those days were gone, maybe they've just gone recently.
On March 17 2018 17:24 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Solid play from Maru. His transition timings are fantastic too. Gone are the days where Maru just went marine/marauder forever or died trying.
He did it vs Nerchio on this map yesterday.
Did he?
Hmm... Well I said those days were gone, maybe they've just gone recently.
10 min of rallying marauder/marine/marine on 58 SCVs
On March 17 2018 17:11 theunabletable wrote: As someone who hasn't played for a year or two and isn't aware of the meta, why are seeker missiles seemingly instant now?
Not a balance whine, but what do zergs do for AA now, with terran air seemingly stronger, and infestors and vipers weaker? I don't really understand how it works.
You need to kill the terran before it happens, apparently.
unacceptable, it should be the other way again
What comp did Zerg have after burrow fungal and 8 armor ultras were nerfed that was really that way?
Broodlord Infestor Viper
That was never unstoppable? And really, with all the changes to the viper and infestor, I haven't seen that comp be unstoppable in a long time
Vipers are still kinda bullshit with 120 damage parasitic bomb.
They also don't stack and deal that damage over like 10 seconds. If they were the original design where they stacked and dealt fast damage I'd agree. That was pretty bullshit, but that's exactly what Terran has right now which is why the current raven needs some sort of nerf to the missile. Maybe a damage nerf or an energy cost increase or something. Even a delay increase would be fine so it works like a specialized seeker missile
On March 17 2018 17:11 theunabletable wrote: As someone who hasn't played for a year or two and isn't aware of the meta, why are seeker missiles seemingly instant now?
Not a balance whine, but what do zergs do for AA now, with terran air seemingly stronger, and infestors and vipers weaker? I don't really understand how it works.
You need to kill the terran before it happens, apparently.
unacceptable, it should be the other way again
What comp did Zerg have after burrow fungal and 8 armor ultras were nerfed that was really that way?
Broodlord Infestor Viper
That was never unstoppable? And really, with all the changes to the viper and infestor, I haven't seen that comp be unstoppable in a long time
Vipers are still kinda bullshit with 120 damage parasitic bomb.
They also don't stack and deal that damage over like 10 seconds. If they were the original design where they stacked and dealt fast damage I'd agree. That was pretty bullshit, but that's exactly what Terran has right now which is why the current raven needs some sort of nerf to the missile. Maybe a damage nerf or an energy cost increase or something. Even a delay increase would be fine so it works like a specialized seeker missile
Who needs stacking when they nearly one shot the vikings anyways.
On March 17 2018 17:11 theunabletable wrote: As someone who hasn't played for a year or two and isn't aware of the meta, why are seeker missiles seemingly instant now?
Not a balance whine, but what do zergs do for AA now, with terran air seemingly stronger, and infestors and vipers weaker? I don't really understand how it works.
You need to kill the terran before it happens, apparently.
unacceptable, it should be the other way again
What comp did Zerg have after burrow fungal and 8 armor ultras were nerfed that was really that way?
Broodlord Infestor Viper
That was never unstoppable? And really, with all the changes to the viper and infestor, I haven't seen that comp be unstoppable in a long time
Vipers are still kinda bullshit with 120 damage parasitic bomb.
They also don't stack and deal that damage over like 10 seconds. If they were the original design where they stacked and dealt fast damage I'd agree. That was pretty bullshit, but that's exactly what Terran has right now which is why the current raven needs some sort of nerf to the missile. Maybe a damage nerf or an energy cost increase or something. Even a delay increase would be fine so it works like a specialized seeker missile
Without AAM as a counterweight, Vipers are complete bullshit since they demolish Vikings
Ravens though are the counter-bullshit on the Terran side. In an ideal world both would be nerfed heavily
On March 17 2018 17:11 theunabletable wrote: As someone who hasn't played for a year or two and isn't aware of the meta, why are seeker missiles seemingly instant now?
Not a balance whine, but what do zergs do for AA now, with terran air seemingly stronger, and infestors and vipers weaker? I don't really understand how it works.
You need to kill the terran before it happens, apparently.
unacceptable, it should be the other way again
What comp did Zerg have after burrow fungal and 8 armor ultras were nerfed that was really that way?
Broodlord Infestor Viper
That was never unstoppable? And really, with all the changes to the viper and infestor, I haven't seen that comp be unstoppable in a long time
Vipers are still kinda bullshit with 120 damage parasitic bomb.
They also don't stack and deal that damage over like 10 seconds. If they were the original design where they stacked and dealt fast damage I'd agree. That was pretty bullshit, but that's exactly what Terran has right now which is why the current raven needs some sort of nerf to the missile. Maybe a damage nerf or an energy cost increase or something. Even a delay increase would be fine so it works like a specialized seeker missile
Who needs stacking when they nearly one shot the vikings anyways.
Again. Over like 10 seconds. That ability is also expensive and the Vikings can be repaired since as you said, it only nearly one shots
On March 17 2018 17:11 theunabletable wrote: As someone who hasn't played for a year or two and isn't aware of the meta, why are seeker missiles seemingly instant now?
Not a balance whine, but what do zergs do for AA now, with terran air seemingly stronger, and infestors and vipers weaker? I don't really understand how it works.
You need to kill the terran before it happens, apparently.
unacceptable, it should be the other way again
What comp did Zerg have after burrow fungal and 8 armor ultras were nerfed that was really that way?
Broodlord Infestor Viper
That was never unstoppable? And really, with all the changes to the viper and infestor, I haven't seen that comp be unstoppable in a long time
Vipers are still kinda bullshit with 120 damage parasitic bomb.
They also don't stack and deal that damage over like 10 seconds. If they were the original design where they stacked and dealt fast damage I'd agree. That was pretty bullshit, but that's exactly what Terran has right now which is why the current raven needs some sort of nerf to the missile. Maybe a damage nerf or an energy cost increase or something. Even a delay increase would be fine so it works like a specialized seeker missile
Who needs stacking when they nearly one shot the vikings anyways.
Again. Over like 10 seconds. That ability is also expensive and the Vikings can be repaired since as you said, it only nearly one shots
5 health means anything else oneshots them and good luck beating BLs without AA. Pulling them back to repair removes them from the battle, and good luck beating BLs without AA
PB is bullshit, just because AAm is also bullshit doesn't excuse PB
On March 17 2018 17:34 Ziggy wrote: And to think Maru used to be one of the cheesiest players on the scene back before he won that OSL in 2013... Amazing play :o
On March 17 2018 17:32 Ej_ wrote: I had no idea that there was a reaper path at the 3rd.
Didn't they add it recently? Along with making Abiogenesis really ugly, and doubling the LOS blockers at the third on Blackpink.
Fun fact : they made Abiogenesis ugly because apparently, you could see a swastika before.
And they added the extra LOS blockers because of that one video where the reaper sits on the blocker and can't get seen by tanks. Though tbh it changes nothing and carefully placed units could still avoid getting seen and shot at.
On March 17 2018 17:41 Waxangel wrote: Maru's like "Fuck it, I'm grabbing the $200,000. I don't give a shit what Blizzard does in terms of balancing patching after that."
On March 17 2018 17:34 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: The gap is so wide open it's kind of embarrassing for all involved right now
You're probably mainly memeing, but it's really impressive how forgetful some people really are with what the gap used to be. The old gap was where a 2-1-1 build just walks across the map and cripples almost every foreign opponent immediately
On March 17 2018 17:41 Waxangel wrote: Maru's like "Fuck it, I'm grabbing the $200,000. I don't give a shit what Blizzard does in terms of balance patching after that."
I can't think of a smarter moove.
I really like seeing filhty zerg getting obliterated with raven missiles. I hope it stays like that for 6 months, so protoss and zerg pay for their sins.
On March 17 2018 17:41 Waxangel wrote: Maru's like "Fuck it, I'm grabbing the $200,000. I don't give a shit what Blizzard does in terms of balance patching after that."
I can't think of a smarter moove.
I really like seeing filhty zerg getting obliterated with raven missiles. I hope it stays like that for 6 months, so protoss and zerg pay for their sins.
On March 17 2018 17:35 Ej_ wrote: 4 bases off 1 banshee and 1 tank
What a great map.
Next season we're getting 16-bit to make sure we have a map with three bases behind a choke in the pool.
at least those bases are vulnerable to drop play to balance it out
Because Vaani and Acolyte were gems of mapmaking and balance.
Wasn't Vaani one of the most liked maps in HotS. At least pros really liked playing on it
It wasn't but Vaani did inbase naturals somewhat right by : - Having the 3rd not on high ground (hello Dusk Towers/Orbital Shipyard) - Having the 3rd somewhat open and not behind a single choke (hello every single inbase natural map in LotV). - 4th+ bases were harder to take overall, and they wasn't as many of them. Last but not least, the gold bases offered some strategies (for Zerg mainly though obviously). Still wasn't a great map.
On March 17 2018 17:47 Heartland wrote: That fight was a bit gross.
"Let's fix instant fights that end the game in 5 seconds" Terrans: Yeah! Great idea! Nerf everything! Blizzard wants to nerf missile Terrans: No! My 5 second fight victories!!! How could I win otherwise????
I can't believe it, first time I ever seen a lategame Terran attempt and pull of a successful tech switch. It's nearly impossible for Terran, but Maru did it. Wasn't even a full tech switch, just mass rax to have an army of marines support the ghosts as meatshields for the banes and good overall supplemental dps.
Pretty one sided, the first one was better in that Serral had a fighting chance for a while. Now, you might say Serral won a fight in game 3 (wow), but he was economically behind all the time.
On March 17 2018 17:57 Charoisaur wrote: Maru is just the greatest player, nobody else would attempt to troll a top tier Zerg in the semifinals of a 200k tournament
On March 17 2018 17:57 Charoisaur wrote: Maru is just the greatest player, nobody else would attempt to troll a top tier Zerg in the semifinals of a 200k tournament
Life would, rip in peace
Life manner hatched Naniwa in 2 or 3 games in IEM New York finals.
Oh and then beat Maru hangover in other IEM finals :D
On March 17 2018 17:57 Charoisaur wrote: Maru is just the greatest player, nobody else would attempt to troll a top tier Zerg in the semifinals of a 200k tournament
On March 17 2018 17:57 Morbidius wrote: That moment when you're not sure if Maru is playing legit or disrespecting Serral.
not sure if disrespect or just having fun but the 9 nukes at a time were definitely trolling. The bio switch might have been the best choice there, as weird as it sounds
On March 17 2018 17:57 Morbidius wrote: That moment when you're not sure if Maru is playing legit or disrespecting Serral.
not sure if disrespect or just having fun but the 9 nukes at a time were definitely trolling. The bio switch might have been the best choice there, as weird as it sounds
The bio switch was 50% disrespect, 50% what he needed to do
On March 17 2018 17:57 Morbidius wrote: That moment when you're not sure if Maru is playing legit or disrespecting Serral.
not sure if disrespect or just having fun but the 9 nukes at a time were definitely trolling. The bio switch might have been the best choice there, as weird as it sounds
The nukes did pretty well though, it's probably not so bad if you have such a huge economy that is uncontested.
On March 17 2018 17:57 Charoisaur wrote: Maru is just the greatest player, nobody else would attempt to troll a top tier Zerg in the semifinals of a 200k tournament
On March 17 2018 18:03 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Was the gap ever bigger than right now, on this day? Maru isn't even the best player in Korea or anything.
On March 17 2018 18:03 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Was the gap ever bigger than right now, on this day? Maru isn't even the best player in Korea or anything.
the KR player pool is tiny, just the top 5-10 koreans are untouchable. Will not last long unfortunately...
Serral was behind for most of that game but not that far behind. A lot of the moves Maru was making weren't cost-efficient but they just wore Serral down psychologically.
Can't imagine how tilting that game must've been for Serral
On March 17 2018 17:57 Morbidius wrote: That moment when you're not sure if Maru is playing legit or disrespecting Serral.
not sure if disrespect or just having fun but the 9 nukes at a time were definitely trolling. The bio switch might have been the best choice there, as weird as it sounds
The nukes did pretty well though, it's probably not so bad if you have such a huge economy that is uncontested.
it almost lost him the game as he was out of gas once his army got killed.
On March 17 2018 18:05 pvsnp wrote: Serral was behind for most of that game but not thatfar behind. A lot of the moves Maru was making weren't cost-efficient but they just wore Serral down psychologically.
Can't imagine how tilting that game must've been for Serral
He was basically lost as soon as he lost that dozen drones to the hellions early on.
On March 17 2018 18:05 pvsnp wrote: Serral was behind for most of that game but not thatfar behind. A lot of the moves Maru was making weren't cost-efficient but they just wore Serral down psychologically.
Can't imagine how tilting that game must've been for Serral
He was very far behind. Losing 12 drones (when you have 40) while your opponent is making 4 CCs off of 1/1/1 is just terrible.
On March 17 2018 17:57 Morbidius wrote: That moment when you're not sure if Maru is playing legit or disrespecting Serral.
not sure if disrespect or just having fun but the 9 nukes at a time were definitely trolling. The bio switch might have been the best choice there, as weird as it sounds
it sounds like "Oh shit, i've trolled too much with my nukes, almost no gas anymore, need to get a gas free comp asap"
On March 17 2018 18:03 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Was the gap ever bigger than right now, on this day? Maru isn't even the best player in Korea or anything.
Idk, I think you could argue for Maru being the best in Korea. He's been top 4 in this, IEM, and GSL.
On March 17 2018 18:10 Elentos wrote: Monday Community Feedback Update: "Ok guys we reconsidered ravens are done, also gonna nerf the 25 minute stim timing"
"from now on terrans can only have 1 available nuke at a time"
Ill place all the blame on TLMC for voting in more and more "free 4 bases NR20 maps" for this kind of shit. CJ Biome was considered a joke map when it released and it was for a good reason.
On March 17 2018 18:20 Morbidius wrote: Ill place all the blame on TLMC for voting in more and more "free 4 bases NR20 maps" for this kind of shit. CJ Biome was considered a joke map when it released and it was for a good reason.
The puzzling bit is that Eastwatch was technically a 'standard' map and not a 'macro' map.
On March 17 2018 18:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote: What's with that natural wall-off for Classic? Sure it allows archons to go through, but it's also an invitation for lings.
Honestly, for most of LotV I remember Classic having hideous walls at his natural.
On March 17 2018 18:20 Morbidius wrote: Ill place all the blame on TLMC for voting in more and more "free 4 bases NR20 maps" for this kind of shit. CJ Biome was considered a joke map when it released and it was for a good reason.
The puzzling bit is that Eastwatch was technically a 'standard' map and not a 'macro' map.
The maps just keep getting bigger man. Give it 2 more years and all maps will be no rush 20 because that's how long you need to get across from natural to natural.
On March 17 2018 18:20 Morbidius wrote: Ill place all the blame on TLMC for voting in more and more "free 4 bases NR20 maps" for this kind of shit. CJ Biome was considered a joke map when it released and it was for a good reason.
The puzzling bit is that Eastwatch was technically a 'standard' map and not a 'macro' map.
The maps just keep getting bigger man. Give it 2 more years and all maps will be no rush 20 because that's how long you need to get across from natural to natural.
Despite the maps in TLMC10 being rather meh, I do think they are rather more moderate in size than the previous two TLMCs. For example Fracture a 'standard' map is basically a rush map.
On March 17 2018 18:20 Morbidius wrote: Ill place all the blame on TLMC for voting in more and more "free 4 bases NR20 maps" for this kind of shit. CJ Biome was considered a joke map when it released and it was for a good reason.
The puzzling bit is that Eastwatch was technically a 'standard' map and not a 'macro' map.
The maps just keep getting bigger man. Give it 2 more years and all maps will be no rush 20 because that's how long you need to get across from natural to natural.
Despite the maps in TLMC10 being rather meh, I do think they are rather more moderate in size than the previous two TLMCs. For example Fracture a 'standard' map is basically a rush map.
Kinda true. Although this TLMC has a terrible top 5 so that's what's gonna hit us on ladder in 2 months.
On March 17 2018 18:20 Morbidius wrote: Ill place all the blame on TLMC for voting in more and more "free 4 bases NR20 maps" for this kind of shit. CJ Biome was considered a joke map when it released and it was for a good reason.
The puzzling bit is that Eastwatch was technically a 'standard' map and not a 'macro' map.
The maps just keep getting bigger man. Give it 2 more years and all maps will be no rush 20 because that's how long you need to get across from natural to natural.
Despite the maps in TLMC10 being rather meh, I do think they are rather more moderate in size than the previous two TLMCs. For example Fracture a 'standard' map is basically a rush map.
Kinda true. Although this TLMC has a terrible top 5 so that's what's gonna hit us on ladder in 2 months.
I only hope that Blizzard in its infinite wisdom mostly ignores the public voting. 16-bit being on a ladder is unfortunately kind of a given unfortunately, but if Blizzard doesn't put Dreamcatcher in the pool, and also avoids putting both Catalyst and Blueshift in the same map pool, I think it could be okay.
On March 17 2018 18:20 Morbidius wrote: Ill place all the blame on TLMC for voting in more and more "free 4 bases NR20 maps" for this kind of shit. CJ Biome was considered a joke map when it released and it was for a good reason.
The puzzling bit is that Eastwatch was technically a 'standard' map and not a 'macro' map.
The maps just keep getting bigger man. Give it 2 more years and all maps will be no rush 20 because that's how long you need to get across from natural to natural.
Despite the maps in TLMC10 being rather meh, I do think they are rather more moderate in size than the previous two TLMCs. For example Fracture a 'standard' map is basically a rush map.
Kinda true. Although this TLMC has a terrible top 5 so that's what's gonna hit us on ladder in 2 months.
I only hope that Blizzard in its infinite wisdom mostly ignores the public voting. 16-bit being on a ladder is unfortunately kind of a given unfortunately, but if Blizzard doesn't put Dreamcatcher in the pool, and also avoids putting both Catalyst and Blueshift in the same map pool, I think it could be okay.
And that's the first veto. How much further down the deep end will we go?
On March 17 2018 18:20 Morbidius wrote: Ill place all the blame on TLMC for voting in more and more "free 4 bases NR20 maps" for this kind of shit. CJ Biome was considered a joke map when it released and it was for a good reason.
The puzzling bit is that Eastwatch was technically a 'standard' map and not a 'macro' map.
The maps just keep getting bigger man. Give it 2 more years and all maps will be no rush 20 because that's how long you need to get across from natural to natural.
Despite the maps in TLMC10 being rather meh, I do think they are rather more moderate in size than the previous two TLMCs. For example Fracture a 'standard' map is basically a rush map.
Kinda true. Although this TLMC has a terrible top 5 so that's what's gonna hit us on ladder in 2 months.
I only hope that Blizzard in its infinite wisdom mostly ignores the public voting. 16-bit being on a ladder is unfortunately kind of a given unfortunately, but if Blizzard doesn't put Dreamcatcher in the pool, and also avoids putting both Catalyst and Blueshift in the same map pool, I think it could be okay.
Catalyst will be gone anyway as they usually don't keep a map in for 3 seasons
On March 17 2018 18:20 Morbidius wrote: Ill place all the blame on TLMC for voting in more and more "free 4 bases NR20 maps" for this kind of shit. CJ Biome was considered a joke map when it released and it was for a good reason.
The puzzling bit is that Eastwatch was technically a 'standard' map and not a 'macro' map.
The maps just keep getting bigger man. Give it 2 more years and all maps will be no rush 20 because that's how long you need to get across from natural to natural.
Despite the maps in TLMC10 being rather meh, I do think they are rather more moderate in size than the previous two TLMCs. For example Fracture a 'standard' map is basically a rush map.
Kinda true. Although this TLMC has a terrible top 5 so that's what's gonna hit us on ladder in 2 months.
I only hope that Blizzard in its infinite wisdom mostly ignores the public voting. 16-bit being on a ladder is unfortunately kind of a given unfortunately, but if Blizzard doesn't put Dreamcatcher in the pool, and also avoids putting both Catalyst and Blueshift in the same map pool, I think it could be okay.
Catalyst will be gone anyway as they usually don't keep a map in for 3 seasons
If Abyssal Reef of all maps stayed so long, I'm afraid Catalyst is gonna stay too.
On March 17 2018 18:20 Morbidius wrote: Ill place all the blame on TLMC for voting in more and more "free 4 bases NR20 maps" for this kind of shit. CJ Biome was considered a joke map when it released and it was for a good reason.
The puzzling bit is that Eastwatch was technically a 'standard' map and not a 'macro' map.
The maps just keep getting bigger man. Give it 2 more years and all maps will be no rush 20 because that's how long you need to get across from natural to natural.
Despite the maps in TLMC10 being rather meh, I do think they are rather more moderate in size than the previous two TLMCs. For example Fracture a 'standard' map is basically a rush map.
Kinda true. Although this TLMC has a terrible top 5 so that's what's gonna hit us on ladder in 2 months.
I only hope that Blizzard in its infinite wisdom mostly ignores the public voting. 16-bit being on a ladder is unfortunately kind of a given unfortunately, but if Blizzard doesn't put Dreamcatcher in the pool, and also avoids putting both Catalyst and Blueshift in the same map pool, I think it could be okay.
Catalyst will be gone anyway as they usually don't keep a map in for 3 seasons
They keep popular maps for very long times. Abyssal Reef was on ladder for almost exactly a year. And Catalyst is popular, cause it's perfectly standard.
On March 17 2018 18:20 Morbidius wrote: Ill place all the blame on TLMC for voting in more and more "free 4 bases NR20 maps" for this kind of shit. CJ Biome was considered a joke map when it released and it was for a good reason.
The puzzling bit is that Eastwatch was technically a 'standard' map and not a 'macro' map.
The maps just keep getting bigger man. Give it 2 more years and all maps will be no rush 20 because that's how long you need to get across from natural to natural.
Despite the maps in TLMC10 being rather meh, I do think they are rather more moderate in size than the previous two TLMCs. For example Fracture a 'standard' map is basically a rush map.
Kinda true. Although this TLMC has a terrible top 5 so that's what's gonna hit us on ladder in 2 months.
I only hope that Blizzard in its infinite wisdom mostly ignores the public voting. 16-bit being on a ladder is unfortunately kind of a given unfortunately, but if Blizzard doesn't put Dreamcatcher in the pool, and also avoids putting both Catalyst and Blueshift in the same map pool, I think it could be okay.
And that's the first veto. How much further down the deep end will we go?
Here's a somewhat likely scenario that isn't totally awful: Acid Plant, Neon Violet, Blackpink, 16-bit, Blueshift, Lost and Found, Fracture.
Here's a somewhat likely scenario that is rather awful: Backwater, Catalyst, Eastwatch, 16-bit, Dreamcatcher, Backpfeifengesicht (renamed to Korhal Station), Blueshift
On March 17 2018 18:20 Morbidius wrote: Ill place all the blame on TLMC for voting in more and more "free 4 bases NR20 maps" for this kind of shit. CJ Biome was considered a joke map when it released and it was for a good reason.
The puzzling bit is that Eastwatch was technically a 'standard' map and not a 'macro' map.
The maps just keep getting bigger man. Give it 2 more years and all maps will be no rush 20 because that's how long you need to get across from natural to natural.
Despite the maps in TLMC10 being rather meh, I do think they are rather more moderate in size than the previous two TLMCs. For example Fracture a 'standard' map is basically a rush map.
Kinda true. Although this TLMC has a terrible top 5 so that's what's gonna hit us on ladder in 2 months.
I only hope that Blizzard in its infinite wisdom mostly ignores the public voting. 16-bit being on a ladder is unfortunately kind of a given unfortunately, but if Blizzard doesn't put Dreamcatcher in the pool, and also avoids putting both Catalyst and Blueshift in the same map pool, I think it could be okay.
And that's the first veto. How much further down the deep end will we go?
Here's a somewhat likely scenario that isn't awful: Acid Plant, Neon Violet, Blackpink, 16-bit, Blueshift, Lost and Found, Fracture.
Here's a somewhat likely scenario that is rather awful: Backwater, Catalyst, Eastwatch, 16-bit, Dreamcatcher, Backpfeifengesicht (renamed to Korhal Station), Blueshift
Dreamcatcher is a good map though, at least for once it doesn't have free 4+ bases. You actually have to work to get your bases.
On March 17 2018 18:20 Morbidius wrote: Ill place all the blame on TLMC for voting in more and more "free 4 bases NR20 maps" for this kind of shit. CJ Biome was considered a joke map when it released and it was for a good reason.
The puzzling bit is that Eastwatch was technically a 'standard' map and not a 'macro' map.
The maps just keep getting bigger man. Give it 2 more years and all maps will be no rush 20 because that's how long you need to get across from natural to natural.
Despite the maps in TLMC10 being rather meh, I do think they are rather more moderate in size than the previous two TLMCs. For example Fracture a 'standard' map is basically a rush map.
Kinda true. Although this TLMC has a terrible top 5 so that's what's gonna hit us on ladder in 2 months.
I only hope that Blizzard in its infinite wisdom mostly ignores the public voting. 16-bit being on a ladder is unfortunately kind of a given unfortunately, but if Blizzard doesn't put Dreamcatcher in the pool, and also avoids putting both Catalyst and Blueshift in the same map pool, I think it could be okay.
And that's the first veto. How much further down the deep end will we go?
Here's a somewhat likely scenario that isn't awful: Acid Plant, Neon Violet, Blackpink, 16-bit, Blueshift, Lost and Found, Fracture.
Here's a somewhat likely scenario that is rather awful: Backwater, Catalyst, Eastwatch, 16-bit, Dreamcatcher, Backpfeifengesicht (renamed to Korhal Station), Blueshift
Dreamcatcher is a good map though, at least for once it doesn't have free 4+ bases. You actually have to work to get your bases.
The impression I got is that it was all about abusive drops.
On March 17 2018 18:20 Morbidius wrote: Ill place all the blame on TLMC for voting in more and more "free 4 bases NR20 maps" for this kind of shit. CJ Biome was considered a joke map when it released and it was for a good reason.
The puzzling bit is that Eastwatch was technically a 'standard' map and not a 'macro' map.
The maps just keep getting bigger man. Give it 2 more years and all maps will be no rush 20 because that's how long you need to get across from natural to natural.
Despite the maps in TLMC10 being rather meh, I do think they are rather more moderate in size than the previous two TLMCs. For example Fracture a 'standard' map is basically a rush map.
Kinda true. Although this TLMC has a terrible top 5 so that's what's gonna hit us on ladder in 2 months.
I only hope that Blizzard in its infinite wisdom mostly ignores the public voting. 16-bit being on a ladder is unfortunately kind of a given unfortunately, but if Blizzard doesn't put Dreamcatcher in the pool, and also avoids putting both Catalyst and Blueshift in the same map pool, I think it could be okay.
And that's the first veto. How much further down the deep end will we go?
Here's a somewhat likely scenario that isn't totally awful: Acid Plant, Neon Violet, Blackpink, 16-bit, Blueshift, Lost and Found, Fracture.
Idk, Neon Violet Squares can go fuck off too. And I don't like Fracture. Honestly I'm surprised how low Para Site ended cause that one actually played out well.
On March 17 2018 18:20 Morbidius wrote: Ill place all the blame on TLMC for voting in more and more "free 4 bases NR20 maps" for this kind of shit. CJ Biome was considered a joke map when it released and it was for a good reason.
The puzzling bit is that Eastwatch was technically a 'standard' map and not a 'macro' map.
The maps just keep getting bigger man. Give it 2 more years and all maps will be no rush 20 because that's how long you need to get across from natural to natural.
Despite the maps in TLMC10 being rather meh, I do think they are rather more moderate in size than the previous two TLMCs. For example Fracture a 'standard' map is basically a rush map.
Kinda true. Although this TLMC has a terrible top 5 so that's what's gonna hit us on ladder in 2 months.
I only hope that Blizzard in its infinite wisdom mostly ignores the public voting. 16-bit being on a ladder is unfortunately kind of a given unfortunately, but if Blizzard doesn't put Dreamcatcher in the pool, and also avoids putting both Catalyst and Blueshift in the same map pool, I think it could be okay.
And that's the first veto. How much further down the deep end will we go?
Here's a somewhat likely scenario that isn't totally awful: Acid Plant, Neon Violet, Blackpink, 16-bit, Blueshift, Lost and Found, Fracture.
Idk, Neon Violet Squares can go fuck off too. And I don't like Fracture. Honestly I'm surprised how low Para Site ended cause that one actually played out well.
Most of the voters didn't watch any games and voted based on looks rather than layout, and Para Site isn't the most attractive. And I think Blizzard will keep three old maps, so Neon Violet would be one of the least harmful ones.
Though I can see pros being happy about having two nearly identical maps in Catalyst and Blueshift in the pool. I remember Snute saying that he wouldn't mind having maps like New Boralis in the same pool as Daybreak/Overgrowth.
On March 17 2018 18:20 Morbidius wrote: Ill place all the blame on TLMC for voting in more and more "free 4 bases NR20 maps" for this kind of shit. CJ Biome was considered a joke map when it released and it was for a good reason.
The puzzling bit is that Eastwatch was technically a 'standard' map and not a 'macro' map.
The maps just keep getting bigger man. Give it 2 more years and all maps will be no rush 20 because that's how long you need to get across from natural to natural.
Despite the maps in TLMC10 being rather meh, I do think they are rather more moderate in size than the previous two TLMCs. For example Fracture a 'standard' map is basically a rush map.
Kinda true. Although this TLMC has a terrible top 5 so that's what's gonna hit us on ladder in 2 months.
I only hope that Blizzard in its infinite wisdom mostly ignores the public voting. 16-bit being on a ladder is unfortunately kind of a given unfortunately, but if Blizzard doesn't put Dreamcatcher in the pool, and also avoids putting both Catalyst and Blueshift in the same map pool, I think it could be okay.
And that's the first veto. How much further down the deep end will we go?
Here's a somewhat likely scenario that isn't totally awful: Acid Plant, Neon Violet, Blackpink, 16-bit, Blueshift, Lost and Found, Fracture.
Idk, Neon Violet Squares can go fuck off too. And I don't like Fracture. Honestly I'm surprised how low Para Site ended cause that one actually played out well.
Most of the voters didn't watch any games and voted based on looks rather than layout, and Para Site isn't the most attractive. And I think Blizzard will keep three old maps, so Neon Violet would be one of the least harmful ones.
Neon plays out just as bad as Backwater at least for the Terran match-ups honestly, we're lucky that the pocket isn't a full base.
On March 17 2018 18:22 ZigguratOfUr wrote: [quote]
The puzzling bit is that Eastwatch was technically a 'standard' map and not a 'macro' map.
The maps just keep getting bigger man. Give it 2 more years and all maps will be no rush 20 because that's how long you need to get across from natural to natural.
Despite the maps in TLMC10 being rather meh, I do think they are rather more moderate in size than the previous two TLMCs. For example Fracture a 'standard' map is basically a rush map.
Kinda true. Although this TLMC has a terrible top 5 so that's what's gonna hit us on ladder in 2 months.
I only hope that Blizzard in its infinite wisdom mostly ignores the public voting. 16-bit being on a ladder is unfortunately kind of a given unfortunately, but if Blizzard doesn't put Dreamcatcher in the pool, and also avoids putting both Catalyst and Blueshift in the same map pool, I think it could be okay.
And that's the first veto. How much further down the deep end will we go?
Here's a somewhat likely scenario that isn't totally awful: Acid Plant, Neon Violet, Blackpink, 16-bit, Blueshift, Lost and Found, Fracture.
Idk, Neon Violet Squares can go fuck off too. And I don't like Fracture. Honestly I'm surprised how low Para Site ended cause that one actually played out well.
Most of the voters didn't watch any games and voted based on looks rather than layout, and Para Site isn't the most attractive. And I think Blizzard will keep three old maps, so Neon Violet would be one of the least harmful ones.
Neon plays out just as bad as Backwater at least for the Terran match-ups honestly, we're lucky that the pocket isn't a full base.
Oh yeah I remember the original version of Neon Violet where the back base was 6 min 1 gas, and had the purple squares in front of it which meant ultras kept on getting trapped there.
I think the swarm host is a really good spectator unit, because it creates an illusion of the game being much closer than it is. SetGuitarsToKim is a genius.
yey, terran in final after such a long time, amazing games, gg Maru (I know I`m late for this comment but game 1 and 3 from Serral vs Maru were really high level, both players played really well. I guess Maru really is in his peak form.
Also, hope for a Serral Classic rematch and a TvZ final.
On March 17 2018 19:01 jarodtou wrote: yey, terran in final after such a long time, amazing games, gg Maru (I know I`m late for this comment but game 1 and 3 from Serral vs Maru were really high level, both players played really well. I guess Maru really is in his peak form.
Also, hope for a Serral Classic rematch and a TvZ final.
I have this theory that this is a time loop and it's 2016 all over again. TY is the best Terran against Protoss, Maru is the best against Zerg and in TvT they're just about even, and in the 2nd half of the year ByuN will find something incredibly broken to micro the hell out of and become relevant again.
On March 17 2018 19:01 jarodtou wrote: yey, terran in final after such a long time, amazing games, gg Maru (I know I`m late for this comment but game 1 and 3 from Serral vs Maru were really high level, both players played really well. I guess Maru really is in his peak form.
Also, hope for a Serral Classic rematch and a TvZ final.
I have this theory that this is a time loop and it's 2016 all over again. TY is the best Terran against Protoss, Maru is the best against Zerg and in TvT they're just about even, and in the 2nd half of the year ByuN will find something incredible broken to micro the hell out of and become relevant again.
So the only question that remains is whether INnoVation is playing LoL, Overwatch or PUBG
On March 17 2018 19:01 jarodtou wrote: yey, terran in final after such a long time, amazing games, gg Maru (I know I`m late for this comment but game 1 and 3 from Serral vs Maru were really high level, both players played really well. I guess Maru really is in his peak form.
Also, hope for a Serral Classic rematch and a TvZ final.
I have this theory that this is a time loop and it's 2016 all over again. TY is the best Terran against Protoss, Maru is the best against Zerg and in TvT they're just about even, and in the 2nd half of the year ByuN will find something incredible broken to micro the hell out of and become relevant again.
On March 17 2018 19:01 jarodtou wrote: yey, terran in final after such a long time, amazing games, gg Maru (I know I`m late for this comment but game 1 and 3 from Serral vs Maru were really high level, both players played really well. I guess Maru really is in his peak form.
Also, hope for a Serral Classic rematch and a TvZ final.
I have this theory that this is a time loop and it's 2016 all over again. TY is the best Terran against Protoss, Maru is the best against Zerg and in TvT they're just about even, and in the 2nd half of the year ByuN will find something incredible broken to micro the hell out of and become relevant again.
So the only question that remains is whether INnoVation is playing LoL, Overwatch or PUBG
On March 17 2018 19:01 jarodtou wrote: yey, terran in final after such a long time, amazing games, gg Maru (I know I`m late for this comment but game 1 and 3 from Serral vs Maru were really high level, both players played really well. I guess Maru really is in his peak form.
Also, hope for a Serral Classic rematch and a TvZ final.
I have this theory that this is a time loop and it's 2016 all over again. TY is the best Terran against Protoss, Maru is the best against Zerg and in TvT they're just about even, and in the 2nd half of the year ByuN will find something incredible broken to micro the hell out of and become relevant again.
Zest is trash
Your theory fails
Trash doesn't make GSL Ro8.
Wait...
The Terrans are definitely back to that status quo.
On March 17 2018 19:01 jarodtou wrote: yey, terran in final after such a long time, amazing games, gg Maru (I know I`m late for this comment but game 1 and 3 from Serral vs Maru were really high level, both players played really well. I guess Maru really is in his peak form.
Also, hope for a Serral Classic rematch and a TvZ final.
I have this theory that this is a time loop and it's 2016 all over again. TY is the best Terran against Protoss, Maru is the best against Zerg and in TvT they're just about even, and in the 2nd half of the year ByuN will find something incredible broken to micro the hell out of and become relevant again.
On March 17 2018 19:01 jarodtou wrote: yey, terran in final after such a long time, amazing games, gg Maru (I know I`m late for this comment but game 1 and 3 from Serral vs Maru were really high level, both players played really well. I guess Maru really is in his peak form.
Also, hope for a Serral Classic rematch and a TvZ final.
I have this theory that this is a time loop and it's 2016 all over again. TY is the best Terran against Protoss, Maru is the best against Zerg and in TvT they're just about even, and in the 2nd half of the year ByuN will find something incredible broken to micro the hell out of and become relevant again.
On March 17 2018 19:31 jarodtou wrote: the finals are also today? 3rd place should have been tomorrow. I kinda don`t want to wake up tomorrow at 6.am for the finals..
On March 17 2018 19:42 Azhrak wrote: There are 3 Koreans in this tournament. Serral's mission is to not let them take all the top 3 spots on the podium. Go Serral!
All foreigners trying to give all their powers to Joona.
finally Serral beats Classic in a game. A bit upset, because I really think Serral is a really good player (worldwide, not just EU or so) but he loses to top koreans. I mean he is so good, but he just manages to get to play against the best, nothing to get demoralized if you lose to Dark/Maru/Classic.. really now. most of the koreans do lose to those players. And getting 1st place, 4th place, 3-4th place in every tournament you enter, with or without koreans, beeeing first with a big advantage of MMR worldwide and beeing first in aligulac is really impresive.
Also: that picture with all foreigners empowering Serral, almost shad a tear )
On March 17 2018 20:10 jarodtou wrote: finally Serral beats Classic in a game. A bit upset, because I really think Serral is a really good player (worldwide, not just EU or so) but he loses to top koreans. I mean he is so good, but he just manages to get to play against the best, nothing to get demoralized if you lose to Dark/Maru/Classic.. really now. most of the koreans do lose to those players. And getting 1st place, 4th place, 3-4th place in every tournament you enter, with or without koreans, beeeing first with a big advantage of MMR worldwide and beeing first in aligulac is really impresive.
Also: that picture with all foreigners empowering Serral, almost shad a tear )
He's just not very good at ZvT, he could win vs Classic and would have had a fair shot against Dark.
On March 17 2018 19:42 Azhrak wrote: There are 3 Koreans in this tournament. Serral's mission is to not let them take all the top 3 spots on the podium. Go Serral!
All foreigners trying to give all their powers to Joona.
On March 17 2018 20:10 jarodtou wrote: finally Serral beats Classic in a game. A bit upset, because I really think Serral is a really good player (worldwide, not just EU or so) but he loses to top koreans. I mean he is so good, but he just manages to get to play against the best, nothing to get demoralized if you lose to Dark/Maru/Classic.. really now. most of the koreans do lose to those players. And getting 1st place, 4th place, 3-4th place in every tournament you enter, with or without koreans, beeeing first with a big advantage of MMR worldwide and beeing first in aligulac is really impresive.
Also: that picture with all foreigners empowering Serral, almost shad a tear )
More practice in Korea would be beneficial. Especially helped out with vT last time, and one could imagine that it might be a bit of a longer trip this year. Can only do so much with foreignerland practice.
On March 17 2018 20:47 jarodtou wrote: I think stephanos zvp endgame is much better, he uses spellcasters and makes lots of spores vs this composition, a bit affraid for serral
He also plays versus much much much weaker players.
On March 17 2018 20:57 CruelZeratul wrote: Airtoss may be strong, but no expanding and just poking don't win the game.
To be fair, he tried to expand a lot of times. He just didn't manage to defend those expansions. Serral was awesome at macroing, he had several overlord drops with lurkers and multi attacks with whose he denied his expanding.
On March 17 2018 20:56 Ej_ wrote: RIP Classic's legend.
I think after Rogue, Dark and Serral, Classic may start to be in a slump, and his legend dies even before it was reborn, favourite for GSL, IEM, Wesg, went far but won none.
That was great play by both. Revenge is sweet for Serral, I hope he has plans to go to Korea this year and improve his vT a bit. I can really see him being the Neeb of this year, he's finally delivering the results.
With a different bracket draw I bet Serral would have been in the finals, going through Classic/Dark. Oh well, at least he showed us that he can dance with the big boys. GG!
Lol I said Maru would be cocky against Serral. He played like a idiot just for the sake of winning while playing like an idiot. Reminds me of the myungsik game.
I've seen games on his stream where he tries to nuke rush lower level players and completely fails. Then he'll just make a bunch of marines and roll them right after.
On March 17 2018 21:04 Charoisaur wrote: ZvP looks slightly Zerg favored. Not just judging from this series
Slightly?
Winrates at top tournaments are pretty even
Using the sample of GSL, IEM PyeongChang, WCS Leipzig (Group Stage 3 + Playoffs), IEM Katowice (Group Stage + Playoffs), and WESG (Group Stage 2 + Playoffs) and excluding Korean wins over non-Koreans, my quick math says Zerg has a win rate of 30-19 which is 61.2%.
On March 17 2018 23:41 Boggyb wrote: Using the sample of GSL, IEM PyeongChang, WCS Leipzig (Group Stage 3 + Playoffs), IEM Katowice (Group Stage + Playoffs), and WESG (Group Stage 2 + Playoffs) and excluding Korean wins over non-Koreans, my quick math says Zerg has a win rate of 30-19 which is 61.2%.
What a random exclusion. You exclude one way but not the other? It's like a worse version of saying "excluding all matches where Aligulac differs by >239 pts" or something equally arbitrary.
On March 17 2018 23:41 Boggyb wrote: Using the sample of GSL, IEM PyeongChang, WCS Leipzig (Group Stage 3 + Playoffs), IEM Katowice (Group Stage + Playoffs), and WESG (Group Stage 2 + Playoffs) and excluding Korean wins over non-Koreans, my quick math says Zerg has a win rate of 30-19 which is 61.2%.
What a random exclusion. You exclude one way but not the other? It's like a worse version of saying "excluding all matches where Aligulac differs by >239 pts" or something equally arbitrary.
Do you think results like sOs and Dear beating SortOf or Zest beating Stephano say anything about balance?
Do you think results like Scarlett (The Queen of PatchZergs) beating Zest (a multiple GSL winner) and sOs (a multiple world champion) don't?
dunno who wins the series, but maru made late game look broken for terran. honestly just seemed unfair. just slowly creep across the map with spread out static defense, and then trade cost effectively because your spellcasters beat their spellcasters.
obviously im selling short how much skill maru played with, but it didn't seem like serral was not on his level.
On March 18 2018 00:05 travis wrote: just watched game 1 maru vs serral
dunno who wins the series, but maru made late game look broken for terran. honestly just seemed unfair. just slowly creep across the map with spread out static defense, and then trade cost effectively because your spellcasters beat their spellcasters.
obviously im selling short how much skill maru played with, but it didn't seem like serral was not on his level.
There is something to be said about "ultra-aggressive" players like Maru (my fav terran from the beginning) and the old toss's like MC and PartinG. The way they impose their will on their opponents unlike anyone else, is impressive and looks OP despite no one else being able to do what they do. Not to mention all 3 are micro gods, that probably plays a big part of it as opposed to the "sit-back-and-defend" guys.
I'm hoping PartinG gets back in shape and becomes the savior us Protoss need to win these days.. clearly Classic is letting us down =[
On March 17 2018 22:16 AgonySC wrote: Always a happy day when Koreans win. No matter how many advantages Blizzard gives foreigners, talent always prevails.
First, I think that this sort of post on TL is just really toxic and unfair towards the foreigners, especially the top foreigners.
And second, did you miss the part where Classic lost to Serral?
On March 17 2018 21:04 Charoisaur wrote: ZvP looks slightly Zerg favored. Not just judging from this series
Slightly?
Winrates at top tournaments are pretty even
Using the sample of GSL, IEM PyeongChang, WCS Leipzig (Group Stage 3 + Playoffs), IEM Katowice (Group Stage + Playoffs), and WESG (Group Stage 2 + Playoffs) and excluding Korean wins over non-Koreans, my quick math says Zerg has a win rate of 30-19 which is 61.2%.
This right here! The matchup is pretty broken right now.
On March 17 2018 22:16 AgonySC wrote: Always a happy day when Koreans win. No matter how many advantages Blizzard gives foreigners, talent always prevails.
First, I think that this sort of post on TL is just really toxic and unfair towards the foreigners, especially the top foreigners.
The Non-Koreans complained so much that Blizzard split off the WCS Circuit for them yet they still try to take spots from Koreans in Korean tournaments. Toxic attitude from the pros deserves a toxic response from the fans.
On March 17 2018 22:16 AgonySC wrote: Always a happy day when Koreans win. No matter how many advantages Blizzard gives foreigners, talent always prevails.
First, I think that this sort of post on TL is just really toxic and unfair towards the foreigners, especially the top foreigners.
The Non-Koreans complained so much that Blizzard split off the WCS Circuit for them yet they still try to take spots from Koreans in Korean tournaments. Toxic attitude from the pros deserves a toxic response from the fans.
Blizzard split the circuit because they realized the circumstances were bad for the overall popularity of the game, especially over the long term, not because they care about any given player. The pros just try to compete and win wherever they can..
On March 18 2018 00:05 travis wrote: just watched game 1 maru vs serral
dunno who wins the series, but maru made late game look broken for terran. honestly just seemed unfair. just slowly creep across the map with spread out static defense, and then trade cost effectively because your spellcasters beat their spellcasters.
obviously im selling short how much skill maru played with, but it didn't seem like serral was not on his level.
Yet when Maru played the most orthodox bio (opening), after an equal early game, he destroyed Serral way harder and faster than with his late-game play.
Seriously zergs need to watch Rogue and understand you can't let Maru go 4th CC 2armory multi-starport on 3 tanks, some banshees and 2 factory. Just make units and kill him.
On March 18 2018 00:05 travis wrote: just watched game 1 maru vs serral
dunno who wins the series, but maru made late game look broken for terran. honestly just seemed unfair. just slowly creep across the map with spread out static defense, and then trade cost effectively because your spellcasters beat their spellcasters.
obviously im selling short how much skill maru played with, but it didn't seem like serral was not on his level.
Like I said in the balance thread, the ultra-lategame maps between them were way closer than "standard" map between them (where Maru demolished him with pure marine tank). If anything, this series indicates zerg is better in the super lategame.
On March 18 2018 00:05 travis wrote: just watched game 1 maru vs serral
dunno who wins the series, but maru made late game look broken for terran. honestly just seemed unfair. just slowly creep across the map with spread out static defense, and then trade cost effectively because your spellcasters beat their spellcasters.
obviously im selling short how much skill maru played with, but it didn't seem like serral was not on his level.
Like I said in the balance thread, the ultra-lategame maps between them were way closer than "standard" map between them (where Maru demolished him with pure marine tank). If anything, this series indicates zerg is better in the super lategame.
Yeah but before that terrans wouldn't even dare to try late game in TvZ so our our lategame has improved.
On March 17 2018 22:16 AgonySC wrote: Always a happy day when Koreans win. No matter how many advantages Blizzard gives foreigners, talent always prevails.
First, I think that this sort of post on TL is just really toxic and unfair towards the foreigners, especially the top foreigners.
The Non-Koreans complained so much that Blizzard split off the WCS Circuit for them yet they still try to take spots from Koreans in Korean tournaments. Toxic attitude from the pros deserves a toxic response from the fans.
On March 17 2018 22:16 AgonySC wrote: Always a happy day when Koreans win. No matter how many advantages Blizzard gives foreigners, talent always prevails.
First, I think that this sort of post on TL is just really toxic and unfair towards the foreigners, especially the top foreigners.
And second, did you miss the part where Classic lost to Serral?
It is pretty sad reading tourney threads on teamliquid these days.
It used to be so exciting reading match reports on here when you couldnt watch the games, or to catch up on games you missed, or even to follow along as you watch but nowadays it is mostly just balance whine or posts about the "gap" and foreigners.
Maybe it is inevitable that's how communities go for games as old as Starcraft 2 - only the die hard are left who are so jaded they are no longer excited about games and resort to in-jokes and memes.
Certain prolific posters (we all know the names) have been allowed to post pretty much outright racist posts like the above. When questioned it is "trolling" - I guess they are supposed to be funny. I have no idea why the mods allow it, but it has made these tournament threads toxic and no fun to read for quite awhile now.
On March 17 2018 22:16 AgonySC wrote: Always a happy day when Koreans win. No matter how many advantages Blizzard gives foreigners, talent always prevails.
First, I think that this sort of post on TL is just really toxic and unfair towards the foreigners, especially the top foreigners.
And second, did you miss the part where Classic lost to Serral?
It is pretty sad reading tourney threads on teamliquid these days.
It used to be so exciting reading match reports on here when you couldnt watch the games, or to catch up on games you missed, or even to follow along as you watch but nowadays it is mostly just balance whine or posts about the "gap" and foreigners.
Maybe it is inevitable that's how communities go for games as old as Starcraft 2 - only the die hard are left who are so jaded they are no longer excited about games and resort to in-jokes and memes.
Certain prolific posters (we all know the names) have been allowed to post pretty much outright racist posts like the above. When questioned it is "trolling" - I guess they are supposed to be funny. I have no idea why the mods allow it, but it has made these tournament threads toxic and no fun to read for quite awhile now.
well at least people participate and post, i for one enjoy tournament threads a ton
On March 17 2018 22:16 AgonySC wrote: Always a happy day when Koreans win. No matter how many advantages Blizzard gives foreigners, talent always prevails.
First, I think that this sort of post on TL is just really toxic and unfair towards the foreigners, especially the top foreigners.
And second, did you miss the part where Classic lost to Serral?
It is pretty sad reading tourney threads on teamliquid these days.
It used to be so exciting reading match reports on here when you couldnt watch the games, or to catch up on games you missed, or even to follow along as you watch but nowadays it is mostly just balance whine or posts about the "gap" and foreigners.
Maybe it is inevitable that's how communities go for games as old as Starcraft 2 - only the die hard are left who are so jaded they are no longer excited about games and resort to in-jokes and memes.
Certain prolific posters (we all know the names) have been allowed to post pretty much outright racist posts like the above. When questioned it is "trolling" - I guess they are supposed to be funny. I have no idea why the mods allow it, but it has made these tournament threads toxic and no fun to read for quite awhile now.
I don't think that's true at all, there's like one balance whine post per page and 5 anti-foreigner posts in this whole thread. I recall during WoL and HotS that entire threads would devolve into balance complaint screaming matches.
On March 17 2018 22:16 AgonySC wrote: Always a happy day when Koreans win. No matter how many advantages Blizzard gives foreigners, talent always prevails.
First, I think that this sort of post on TL is just really toxic and unfair towards the foreigners, especially the top foreigners.
And second, did you miss the part where Classic lost to Serral?
It is pretty sad reading tourney threads on teamliquid these days.
It used to be so exciting reading match reports on here when you couldnt watch the games, or to catch up on games you missed, or even to follow along as you watch but nowadays it is mostly just balance whine or posts about the "gap" and foreigners.
Maybe it is inevitable that's how communities go for games as old as Starcraft 2 - only the die hard are left who are so jaded they are no longer excited about games and resort to in-jokes and memes.
Certain prolific posters (we all know the names) have been allowed to post pretty much outright racist posts like the above. When questioned it is "trolling" - I guess they are supposed to be funny. I have no idea why the mods allow it, but it has made these tournament threads toxic and no fun to read for quite awhile now.
On March 17 2018 22:16 AgonySC wrote: Always a happy day when Koreans win. No matter how many advantages Blizzard gives foreigners, talent always prevails.
First, I think that this sort of post on TL is just really toxic and unfair towards the foreigners, especially the top foreigners.
The Non-Koreans complained so much that Blizzard split off the WCS Circuit for them yet they still try to take spots from Koreans in Korean tournaments. Toxic attitude from the pros deserves a toxic response from the fans.
Blizzard split the circuit because they realized the circumstances were bad for the overall popularity of the game, especially over the long term, not because they care about any given player. The pros just try to compete and win wherever they can..
Koreans were never a threat to the popularity of the game; and let's be honest, how did that pan out in retrospect?
Starcraft 2 is just an outdated model. In this day and age, a multiplayer game needs to have microtransactions and it needs to appeal to both the young fanbase and the female fanbase, both of which continue to grow each year.
If I were to bet, I'd say this is the last year of WCS, and if not definitely this next one will be the last. So what appeared to be a move for the "long term" made a lot of people that were fans of Koreans, including myself, salty over the extremely unfair system. Which matches always get the most views? Top koreans vs top foreigners.
On March 17 2018 22:16 AgonySC wrote: Always a happy day when Koreans win. No matter how many advantages Blizzard gives foreigners, talent always prevails.
First, I think that this sort of post on TL is just really toxic and unfair towards the foreigners, especially the top foreigners.
The Non-Koreans complained so much that Blizzard split off the WCS Circuit for them yet they still try to take spots from Koreans in Korean tournaments. Toxic attitude from the pros deserves a toxic response from the fans.
Don't blame the players, blame the system
The players are the ones who begged for the system, so yeah, blame the players.
On March 17 2018 22:16 AgonySC wrote: Always a happy day when Koreans win. No matter how many advantages Blizzard gives foreigners, talent always prevails.
First, I think that this sort of post on TL is just really toxic and unfair towards the foreigners, especially the top foreigners.
The Non-Koreans complained so much that Blizzard split off the WCS Circuit for them yet they still try to take spots from Koreans in Korean tournaments. Toxic attitude from the pros deserves a toxic response from the fans.
Don't blame the players, blame the system
The players are the ones who begged for the system, so yeah, blame the players.
On March 17 2018 22:16 AgonySC wrote: Always a happy day when Koreans win. No matter how many advantages Blizzard gives foreigners, talent always prevails.
First, I think that this sort of post on TL is just really toxic and unfair towards the foreigners, especially the top foreigners.
The Non-Koreans complained so much that Blizzard split off the WCS Circuit for them yet they still try to take spots from Koreans in Korean tournaments. Toxic attitude from the pros deserves a toxic response from the fans.
Don't blame the players, blame the system
The players are the ones who begged for the system, so yeah, blame the players.
Isn't this not true? I remember it being tournament organizers like DH/IEM saying they were going to pull SC2 because it was no longer profitable for them, so Blizzard made changes
On March 17 2018 22:16 AgonySC wrote: Always a happy day when Koreans win. No matter how many advantages Blizzard gives foreigners, talent always prevails.
First, I think that this sort of post on TL is just really toxic and unfair towards the foreigners, especially the top foreigners.
The Non-Koreans complained so much that Blizzard split off the WCS Circuit for them yet they still try to take spots from Koreans in Korean tournaments. Toxic attitude from the pros deserves a toxic response from the fans.
Don't blame the players, blame the system
The players are the ones who begged for the system, so yeah, blame the players.
Isn't this not true? I remember it being tournament organizers like DH/IEM saying they were going to pull SC2 because it was no longer profitable for them, so Blizzard made changes
I believe one of the big changes regarding tournaments is Blizzard is the one putting up the prize pool and in some cases even subsidizing the cost of running the tournament.
On March 17 2018 22:16 AgonySC wrote: Always a happy day when Koreans win. No matter how many advantages Blizzard gives foreigners, talent always prevails.
First, I think that this sort of post on TL is just really toxic and unfair towards the foreigners, especially the top foreigners.
And second, did you miss the part where Classic lost to Serral?
It is pretty sad reading tourney threads on teamliquid these days.
It used to be so exciting reading match reports on here when you couldnt watch the games, or to catch up on games you missed, or even to follow along as you watch but nowadays it is mostly just balance whine or posts about the "gap" and foreigners.
Maybe it is inevitable that's how communities go for games as old as Starcraft 2 - only the die hard are left who are so jaded they are no longer excited about games and resort to in-jokes and memes.
Certain prolific posters (we all know the names) have been allowed to post pretty much outright racist posts like the above. When questioned it is "trolling" - I guess they are supposed to be funny. I have no idea why the mods allow it, but it has made these tournament threads toxic and no fun to read for quite awhile now.
It could be that there used to be a lot more enthusiasm to go along with the whining, but there's always been quite a bit of whining. When people weren't complaining about the unfair new WCS system, they were complaining about Koreans dominating every tournament. Every balance decision (or failure to swiftly nerf something from the current meta) has brought with it a great deal of complaint. I actually am not sure that now is any worse than any other time. I don't know if it's a generational thing or if it's because of Blizzard's core design decisions or what. But I do think that there's literally nothing they are capable of doing that would please everyone when it comes to SC2.
Having said that, I still see a good deal of enthusiasm in these threads. Actually, I don't know if it's just me, but I feel like there's maybe been an uptick lately on that front if anything. Or maybe I don't follow the foreign scene as much usually and it's got a slightly more lively fanbase at the moment? I don't know. But seriously, following WESG and IEM have given me a little more hope, if anything.
I would love to watch Dark vs Serral Bo7 now to see who's the best zerg out there currently. But of course tomorrow final will also tell a lot. I feel like Serral needs some more time in korea, there are no terrans in EU to practice with. Once he fixes his ZvT (which is already the best outside of Korea) he might become the best zerg out there.
On March 18 2018 05:44 Avicularia wrote: I would love to watch Dark vs Serral Bo7 now to see who's the best zerg out there currently.
You mean behind Rogue?
Rogue is very mortal in ZvZ (didn't he get spanked by Serral already?) And his TvZ is relatively bad when pulling the boys doesn't work (see vs Maru at Katowice)
On March 17 2018 22:16 AgonySC wrote: Always a happy day when Koreans win. No matter how many advantages Blizzard gives foreigners, talent always prevails.
First, I think that this sort of post on TL is just really toxic and unfair towards the foreigners, especially the top foreigners.
And second, did you miss the part where Classic lost to Serral?
It is pretty sad reading tourney threads on teamliquid these days.
It used to be so exciting reading match reports on here when you couldnt watch the games, or to catch up on games you missed, or even to follow along as you watch but nowadays it is mostly just balance whine or posts about the "gap" and foreigners.
Maybe it is inevitable that's how communities go for games as old as Starcraft 2 - only the die hard are left who are so jaded they are no longer excited about games and resort to in-jokes and memes.
Certain prolific posters (we all know the names) have been allowed to post pretty much outright racist posts like the above. When questioned it is "trolling" - I guess they are supposed to be funny. I have no idea why the mods allow it, but it has made these tournament threads toxic and no fun to read for quite awhile now.
If you think balance whine or anti-foreigner bias only started recently, you must not have been on TL anytime since 2010.
On March 18 2018 05:44 Avicularia wrote: I would love to watch Dark vs Serral Bo7 now to see who's the best zerg out there currently. But of course tomorrow final will also tell a lot. I feel like Serral needs some more time in korea, there are no terrans in EU to practice with. Once he fixes his ZvT (which is already the best outside of Korea) he might become the best zerg out there.
I would love to see a good nonZerg who's a threat to Koreans, not just Zergs.
On March 18 2018 05:44 Avicularia wrote: I would love to watch Dark vs Serral Bo7 now to see who's the best zerg out there currently. But of course tomorrow final will also tell a lot. I feel like Serral needs some more time in korea, there are no terrans in EU to practice with. Once he fixes his ZvT (which is already the best outside of Korea) he might become the best zerg out there.
I would love to see a good nonZerg who's a threat to Koreans, not just Zergs.