We return for Season IV of KOTN. Summoning North America’s top StarCraft II players for glory. An enhanced format and a new defending champion, it's time to decide who is the north’s true king
The qualifier is advertised as an "open qualifier" but when Masa actually signed up for it the players threw an absolute sissy fit and banned him from participating in the qualifier.
He wasn't allowed to play in the qualifier because he already has a direct invite to the main tournament. I'm not sure what seems controversial about that. Masa stirring up conflict over nothing means he's lost a lot of respect in my eyes.
On August 20 2017 23:38 LTCM wrote: He wasn't allowed to play in the qualifier because he already has a direct invite to the main tournament. I'm not sure what seems controversial about that. Masa stirring up conflict over nothing means he's lost a lot of respect in my eyes.
I think the issue is that there was a prize pool for the qualifier. They could have let Masa play and win and then give the 3rd place person the spot or invite one more player. It's a weird situation I feel like qualifiers should just have invite spots or travel stipends. Also is Masa not allowed to play in this months ladder heroes?
I remember ESL had a system for their IEM tournaments where invites had to pay their own way to tournaments and qualified players would get travel paid and many people would try and qualify even though they potentially could have gotten invited. In both situations its just a weird situation where getting an invite is less lucrative than qualifying for the tournament itself.
Okay now, for future reference, I get that you guys want to cast your matches on your own channel, but when there's 50 minutes of delay for an online match because of technical issues, maybe it's time to just let the other language caster become the main stream, just for today.
Sad to hear that there is sound issue. (see what I did there?) But anyway I can't watch right now, if someone could update Liquipedia / say who won the matches it would be very appreciate, thanks.
On October 15 2017 03:17 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Have we finally surpassed NASL sound guy? There's only been 3 matches and they've all sounded bad in unique ways
Now they've been muted entirely for like 10 minutes, casteres and analysis and all. It's honestly impressive how bad this is.
It's definitely ....
well...
i mean, lets be honest, this is a horror show. @_@;;;
edit: not to mention the 2nd language - off stream - has double the viewers xD truly an interesting event we have going on here.
On October 15 2017 03:29 Nakajin wrote: Sad to hear that there is sound issue. (see what I did there?) But anyway I can't watch right now, if someone could update Liquipedia / say who won the matches it would be very appreciate, thanks.
On October 15 2017 03:29 Nakajin wrote: Sad to hear that there is sound issue. (see what I did there?) But anyway I can't watch right now, if someone could update Liquipedia / say who won the matches it would be very appreciate, thanks.
On October 15 2017 03:29 Nakajin wrote: Sad to hear that there is sound issue. (see what I did there?) But anyway I can't watch right now, if someone could update Liquipedia / say who won the matches it would be very appreciate, thanks.
I'll start covering that
WHAT? I CAN'T HEAR YOU.
I certainly can't hear anything either after being deafened by the ingame music volume.
You just took a 30 minute break between matches how is it still this bad?
There's been two 3-0 series in in over 3 hours, I'm not sticking around for another 5 to finish today off
On October 16 2017 06:01 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Oracles are balanced
They really are. Mass oracles are dumb from a design perspective, but the Korean Zergs I've seen have largely figured them out. They definitely don't need the nerf they're getting.
On October 16 2017 06:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Really a testament to how far ahead Neeb was economically that he got destroyed three expensive engagements in a row and is still ahead.
When Protoss can defend any base with the push of a button it's hard to stop Protoss from taking the entire map. Overcharge can't be gone soon enough.
On October 16 2017 06:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Really a testament to how far ahead Neeb was economically that he got destroyed three expensive engagements in a row and is still ahead.
Yeah, that was insane, he's gotta have been like 15k down in resources lost at the end. Crazy to think that if Neeb had mined just a few percent less throughout the game, Scarlett would probably have worn down his entire bank
so Neeb consistantly harassing with zealots at every base of Scarlett all game, and almost still lost with a 10k bank.. But P is OP.. if scarlett even send 20 lings to other side of the map to harass at ANY point in the last 20 minutes, or made a nydus in his main lets say, or anything other than sit in her base and wait.. she would have won that easily.
On October 16 2017 06:57 SnowfaLL wrote: so Neeb consistantly harassing with zealots at every base of Scarlett all game, and almost still lost with a 10k bank.. But P is OP.. if scarlett even send 20 lings to other side of the map to harass at ANY point in the last 20 minutes, or made a nydus in his main lets say, or anything other than sit in her base and wait.. she would have won that easily.
On October 16 2017 06:57 SnowfaLL wrote: so Neeb consistantly harassing with zealots at every base of Scarlett all game, and almost still lost with a 10k bank.. But P is OP.. if scarlett even send 20 lings to other side of the map to harass at ANY point in the last 20 minutes, or made a nydus in his main lets say, or anything other than sit in her base and wait.. she would have won that easily.
20 lings trade a lot less well against static d than 10 zealots. like orders of magnitude less efficiently. 15 cannons is ling proof, 15 spine crawlers only delays zealots
On October 16 2017 06:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Really a testament to how far ahead Neeb was economically that he got destroyed three expensive engagements in a row and is still ahead.
When Protoss can defend any base with the push of a button it's hard to stop Protoss from taking the entire map. Overcharge can't be gone soon enough.
Wat. Overcharge has nothing to do with his ability to take and hold bases six, seven, eight, nine... You should instead whine more about recall, warp prisms, revelation or something.
On October 16 2017 06:57 SnowfaLL wrote: so Neeb consistantly harassing with zealots at every base of Scarlett all game, and almost still lost with a 10k bank.. But P is OP.. if scarlett even send 20 lings to other side of the map to harass at ANY point in the last 20 minutes, or made a nydus in his main lets say, or anything other than sit in her base and wait.. she would have won that easily.
10 zealots can cause way more damage than 20 lings, and Protoss has overcharge, recall, and cannons so Neeb could defend every base at once.
On October 16 2017 06:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Really a testament to how far ahead Neeb was economically that he got destroyed three expensive engagements in a row and is still ahead.
When Protoss can defend any base with the push of a button it's hard to stop Protoss from taking the entire map. Overcharge can't be gone soon enough.
Wat. Overcharge has nothing to do with his ability to take and hold bases six, seven, eight, nine... You should instead whine more about recall, warp prisms, revelation or something.
I think he is talking about recall as well as overcharge
On October 16 2017 06:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Really a testament to how far ahead Neeb was economically that he got destroyed three expensive engagements in a row and is still ahead.
When Protoss can defend any base with the push of a button it's hard to stop Protoss from taking the entire map. Overcharge can't be gone soon enough.
Wat. Overcharge has nothing to do with his ability to take and hold bases six, seven, eight, nine... You should instead whine more about recall, warp prisms, revelation or something.
I think he is talking about recall
I know it doesn't make much sense, but he does mention overcharge specifically.
On October 16 2017 06:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Really a testament to how far ahead Neeb was economically that he got destroyed three expensive engagements in a row and is still ahead.
When Protoss can defend any base with the push of a button it's hard to stop Protoss from taking the entire map. Overcharge can't be gone soon enough.
Wat. Overcharge has nothing to do with his ability to take and hold bases six, seven, eight, nine... You should instead whine more about recall, warp prisms, revelation or something.
I think he is talking about recall
I know it doesn't make much sense, but he does mention overcharge specifically.
He either edited that in after I read or I misread
On October 16 2017 06:57 SnowfaLL wrote: so Neeb consistantly harassing with zealots at every base of Scarlett all game, and almost still lost with a 10k bank.. But P is OP.. if scarlett even send 20 lings to other side of the map to harass at ANY point in the last 20 minutes, or made a nydus in his main lets say, or anything other than sit in her base and wait.. she would have won that easily.
10 zealots can cause way more damage than 20 lings, and Protoss has overcharge, recall, and cannons so Neeb could defend every base at once.
and Scarlett had spines, queens, banelings, hydras, infestors and more. See how that works?? Neeb had 3 undefended bases on the right side of the map. Had two undefended (no cannons/etc) bases on the left. Had a completely undefended main that one sneaked overlord with a nydus could decimate in seconds with cracklings. There was MANY things she could do. Scarlett is the most talented mechanical player outside of korea in SC2 history.. but she gives up when she "thinks" shes out. Thats the issue. A few better decisions lategame (and I know, its hard when your mind is racing) and that game was won, but the thing that bugs me is that her and her fans just say "welp, cant win anyways so why bother" rather than saying "I need to do better next time".
A mothership core cant be at 7 bases at once.. but queens can.
Again, why is it that no korean zergs lose lategame vs Oracles, but when Neeb does well, its constant crying?? soO and Rogue made Classic and Stats look silly for trying oracles lately. Know what soO and Rogue do? Actually fight! Cracklings are better than zealots.
I would bet money that a zerg is going to win Blizzcon (only doubt is that Innovation has a chance) but without a doubt, no protoss will make it far if they have to play zergs. Only way Protoss makes it to finals is if they avoid zerg in much of the rounds, or play the foreigner zergs who already made up their mind they lost. Korean zergs are the pinnacle of SC2 right now outside of Innovation.
On October 16 2017 06:57 SnowfaLL wrote: so Neeb consistantly harassing with zealots at every base of Scarlett all game, and almost still lost with a 10k bank.. But P is OP.. if scarlett even send 20 lings to other side of the map to harass at ANY point in the last 20 minutes, or made a nydus in his main lets say, or anything other than sit in her base and wait.. she would have won that easily.
10 zealots can cause way more damage than 20 lings, and Protoss has overcharge, recall, and cannons so Neeb could defend every base at once.
and Scarlett had spines, queens, banelings, hydras, infestors and more. See how that works?? Neeb had 3 undefended bases on the right side of the map. Had two undefended (no cannons/etc) bases on the left. Had a completely undefended main that one sneaked overlord with a nydus could decimate in seconds with cracklings. There was MANY things she could do. Scarlett is the most talented mechanical player outside of korea in SC2 history.. but she gives up when she "thinks" shes out. Thats the issue. A few better decisions lategame (and I know, its hard when your mind is racing) and that game was won, but the thing that bugs me is that her and her fans just say "welp, cant win anyways so why bother" rather than saying "I need to do better next time".
A mothership core cant be at 7 bases at once.. but queens can.
Again, why is it that no korean zergs lose lategame vs Oracles, but when Neeb does well, its constant crying?? soO and Rogue made Classic and Stats look silly for trying oracles lately. Know what soO and Rogue do? Actually fight! Cracklings are better than zealots.
I would bet money that a zerg is going to win Blizzcon (only doubt is that Innovation has a chance) but without a doubt, no protoss will make it far if they have to play zergs. Only way Protoss makes it to finals is if they avoid zerg in much of the rounds, or play the foreigner zergs who already made up their mind they lost. Korean zergs are the pinnacle of SC2 right now outside of Innovation.
If Scarlett had moved out to kill one of Neeb's bases he just would have dealt a killing blow to her mining bases.
On October 16 2017 06:57 SnowfaLL wrote: a completely undefended main that one sneaked overlord with a nydus could decimate in seconds with cracklings.
For the time it takes for a nydus to be built, enough lings coming out of it and destroying a nexus, Neeb would have had time to recall 10 times. Every other supposition you are making about scarlett potential harassment can be answered by the same thing: recall. You are the embodiment of the backseat twitch chat GM meme. It's obvious you either don't play starcraft or at a very low level, because your theory crafting makes absolutely no sense. Scarlett didn't play perfectly but neither did Neeb, actually he came very close to throwing the game due to some questionable fights. His saving grace was actually mining on Scarlett's side of the map which allowed him to spam zealot harass and win despite losing more ressources overall. If you wanna be critical of Scarlett's play, focus on that part of the game, unless in your world nydus and cracklings kill 15 cannons and a nexus in 3 seconds.
sigh.. 20 lings minus from her army would let neeb destroy her whole base? The irony of someone saying 'backseat twitch chat GM meme". Insult me all you want but you know I'm right in the fact that that game was VERY winnable from Scarlett with a few smarter decisions.
But its ok, keep telling yourself Protoss is overpowered and thats the only thing keeping you out of GM, or in Scarlett's case, the only thing keeping her from beating Neeb every single series they play.
Having said that, I think revelation should be nerfed a bit, and recall should cost double. What with warp ins AND recall, it is impossible for late game Protoss to ever "be out of position". Add that to the main army being unbeatable in one engage and that last game was agonizing to watch.
On October 16 2017 06:57 SnowfaLL wrote: a completely undefended main that one sneaked overlord with a nydus could decimate in seconds with cracklings.
For the time it takes for a nydus to be built, enough lings coming out of it and destroying a nexus, Neeb would have had time to recall 10 times. Every other supposition you are making about scarlett potential harassment can be answered by the same thing: recall. You are the embodiment of the backseat twitch chat GM meme. It's obvious you either don't play starcraft or at a very low level, because your theory crafting makes absolutely no sense. Scarlett didn't play perfectly but neither did Neeb, actually he came very close to throwing the game due to some questionable fights. His saving grace was actually mining on Scarlett's side of the map which allowed him to spam zealot harass and win despite losing more ressources overall. If you wanna be critical of Scarlett's play, focus on that part of the game, unless in your world nydus and cracklings kill 15 cannons and a nexus in 3 seconds.
Oh I'll even do you zerg memers one better.. Look, a replay! Dark vs Stats. Same situation, lategame skytoss vs wall of spores.. opening was oracle. I will even put it to where the oracle harass begins to see how "wrecked" Dark gets!
Notice what Dark does in this game?? I think that states my case 100%. Neeb had at least 2 free nexus mining that lings would have done SOMETHING at least, even forcing a recall like you guys say is well worth the wasted energy for 20 lings, but okk just pretend magically every pylon on the whole map can instantly start shooting despite how far away the MS is.
See the overlord drops?? no banes, just lings. While drops happening, lings harass the 4th, get the nexus despite 10 adepts there. Corruptors in with spray.. etc. OMG A BURROW SIGHTING!! He even sent 3 ultras into a cannon-defended base just to draw Stat's attention away.. This is how you play zerg, or you could just say "Welp, I know Protoss is OP so no point putting effort in getting better". Your choice.
Watch close at 22:18 - a 10 ling runby in the main to fight cannons + adepts, and listen to the casters (think its Rotti?? of course, a protoss player) - "That runby was so important!" omg who knew even 10 Lings were useful in the lategame! Not TeamLiquid!
On October 16 2017 06:57 SnowfaLL wrote: a completely undefended main that one sneaked overlord with a nydus could decimate in seconds with cracklings.
For the time it takes for a nydus to be built, enough lings coming out of it and destroying a nexus, Neeb would have had time to recall 10 times. Every other supposition you are making about scarlett potential harassment can be answered by the same thing: recall. You are the embodiment of the backseat twitch chat GM meme. It's obvious you either don't play starcraft or at a very low level, because your theory crafting makes absolutely no sense. Scarlett didn't play perfectly but neither did Neeb, actually he came very close to throwing the game due to some questionable fights. His saving grace was actually mining on Scarlett's side of the map which allowed him to spam zealot harass and win despite losing more ressources overall. If you wanna be critical of Scarlett's play, focus on that part of the game, unless in your world nydus and cracklings kill 15 cannons and a nexus in 3 seconds.
Oh I'll even do you zerg memers one better.. Look, a replay! Dark vs Stats. Same situation, lategame skytoss vs wall of spores.. opening was oracle. I will even put it to where the oracle harass begins to see how "wrecked" Dark gets!
Notice what Dark does in this game?? I think that states my case 100%. Neeb had at least 2 free nexus mining that lings would have done SOMETHING at least, even forcing a recall like you guys say is well worth the wasted energy for 20 lings, but okk just pretend magically every pylon on the whole map can instantly start shooting despite how far away the MS is.
See the overlord drops?? no banes, just lings. While drops happening, lings harass the 4th, get the nexus despite 10 adepts there. Corruptors in with spray.. etc. OMG A BURROW SIGHTING!! He even sent 3 ultras into a cannon-defended base just to draw Stat's attention away.. This is how you play zerg, or you could just say "Welp, I know Protoss is OP so no point putting effort in getting better". Your choice.
Watch close at 22:18 - a 10 ling runby in the main to fight cannons + adepts, and listen to the casters (think its Rotti?? of course, a protoss player) - "That runby was so important!" omg who knew even 10 Lings were useful in the lategame! Not TeamLiquid!
I rest my case. Go study please.
Did Stats do a whole bunch of oracles in to mass adept harass? Or just a couple oracles and sit back and defend? And then go into a concave Nexus contain? I don't have time to watch the whole thing now (saw it back at he time of course).
I feel like Scarlett was slightly behind because of slightly OP harass. Once it was late game, Neeb played it brilliantly, but with recall, long lasting revelation, pylon cannons and warp-ins it is way too hard to have a comeback, even with cost efficient engages. There was almost no way she gets an ovie on Neeb's side of the map. And Neeb's bases did have a few cannons each, they weren't undefended.
I love watching Rogue, Dark, soO and Solar win against late game toss. I'm not so sure they have it "figured out" just because Rogue won the GSL Tourney thingy. Late game toss losing to zerg just isn't what usually happens. That last game was not fun to watch.
On October 16 2017 06:57 SnowfaLL wrote: a completely undefended main that one sneaked overlord with a nydus could decimate in seconds with cracklings.
For the time it takes for a nydus to be built, enough lings coming out of it and destroying a nexus, Neeb would have had time to recall 10 times. Every other supposition you are making about scarlett potential harassment can be answered by the same thing: recall. You are the embodiment of the backseat twitch chat GM meme. It's obvious you either don't play starcraft or at a very low level, because your theory crafting makes absolutely no sense. Scarlett didn't play perfectly but neither did Neeb, actually he came very close to throwing the game due to some questionable fights. His saving grace was actually mining on Scarlett's side of the map which allowed him to spam zealot harass and win despite losing more ressources overall. If you wanna be critical of Scarlett's play, focus on that part of the game, unless in your world nydus and cracklings kill 15 cannons and a nexus in 3 seconds.
Oh I'll even do you zerg memers one better.. Look, a replay! Dark vs Stats. Same situation, lategame skytoss vs wall of spores.. opening was oracle. I will even put it to where the oracle harass begins to see how "wrecked" Dark gets!
Notice what Dark does in this game?? I think that states my case 100%. Neeb had at least 2 free nexus mining that lings would have done SOMETHING at least, even forcing a recall like you guys say is well worth the wasted energy for 20 lings, but okk just pretend magically every pylon on the whole map can instantly start shooting despite how far away the MS is.
See the overlord drops?? no banes, just lings. While drops happening, lings harass the 4th, get the nexus despite 10 adepts there. Corruptors in with spray.. etc. OMG A BURROW SIGHTING!! He even sent 3 ultras into a cannon-defended base just to draw Stat's attention away.. This is how you play zerg, or you could just say "Welp, I know Protoss is OP so no point putting effort in getting better". Your choice.
Watch close at 22:18 - a 10 ling runby in the main to fight cannons + adepts, and listen to the casters (think its Rotti?? of course, a protoss player) - "That runby was so important!" omg who knew even 10 Lings were useful in the lategame! Not TeamLiquid!
I rest my case. Go study please.
That's Tod, and I think he's overstating how important that ling runby is.
Anyway, the oracle usage is very different (2 vs Mass in Neeb's case). I feel like Scarlett was more behind in her game and Neeb played it out well to snowball it (before almost throwing at least). The game today was 100% a game of resources. Neeb was mining on Scarlett's side of the map and she never denied it, and when it was almost broke vs almost broke Neeb barely hung on. She didn't need lings on the other side of the map, she was barely hanging on at home forever and Neeb got away with one of the greediest nexus I've seen in a long while. 20 lings there could have denied it but she felt too pressured by the army to ever split anything off. Whether her feelings were correct and she really couldn't split anything off would require a rewatch to determine though. It was only defended by like 3 cannons but when every other base was defended by 20 maybe she thought she didn't see all of them or something.
I wish I could take people who ask silly questions or claim that complex questions have simple answers and plop them into the game and make them play and have them witness everything from one perspective instead of the semi-omniscient perspective that spectators get.
There is so much that each player can't see and that alone has a huge impact on what both Neeb and Scarlett were doing for 10, 15, 20+ minutes of that final game. Even with Observers and Changelings and other scouting, there is so much you can't see. The vision they had, not just of the enemy army but their bases as well, and how they comprehend the state of the game changes several times every minute. Put [any Protoss player] and [any Zerg player] in that same game and a million different things will happen just from what they can and can't see and how they react to that on any given day.
"But look at this late game Protoss versus Zerg game that totally proves-" nothing. It doesn't show anything but a series of decisions that worked against another player's series of decisions in a very different type of game on a very different map with two very different players. Add as many objective similarities as you want, "Oracle harass" "late game skytoss" so on and so on, those similarities will still be incredibly minor compared to everything else going on.
This game, for example, was not a game of splitting one's attention or distracting, it was not a game arguably decided by a single push, and it was not a game played at the beginning of a series like the Stats vs. Dark example. This game was a game of vision, of positioning, a game of survival, attrition, structure vs unit defense, and. very importantly. it was a game of resources and Zerg vs Protoss late game reproduction cycles.
"See what Dark does in this ga-" look, it has so, so very little to do with anything that happened in the Scarlett vs. Neeb match that it just doesn't matter. That example and this gate are like brown sugar poptarts and barbecue chicken pizza, they're just too different to compare so simply or use any part as an argument against the other.
And, for all of those reasons and more, I found that game extremely fascinating to watch.
On October 16 2017 16:43 -Kyo- wrote: wtb vods....
Good, because you can literally buy access to their vods on https://www.twitch.tv/eschamp by subscribing, and for a little while longer all subscriptions are half off.
Otherwise, they should be uploaded to their YouTube soon(™). I hope soon-soon, I missed the first few games of the day. ._.
On October 16 2017 06:57 SnowfaLL wrote: a completely undefended main that one sneaked overlord with a nydus could decimate in seconds with cracklings.
For the time it takes for a nydus to be built, enough lings coming out of it and destroying a nexus, Neeb would have had time to recall 10 times. Every other supposition you are making about scarlett potential harassment can be answered by the same thing: recall. You are the embodiment of the backseat twitch chat GM meme. It's obvious you either don't play starcraft or at a very low level, because your theory crafting makes absolutely no sense. Scarlett didn't play perfectly but neither did Neeb, actually he came very close to throwing the game due to some questionable fights. His saving grace was actually mining on Scarlett's side of the map which allowed him to spam zealot harass and win despite losing more ressources overall. If you wanna be critical of Scarlett's play, focus on that part of the game, unless in your world nydus and cracklings kill 15 cannons and a nexus in 3 seconds.
Oh I'll even do you zerg memers one better.. Look, a replay! Dark vs Stats. Same situation, lategame skytoss vs wall of spores.. opening was oracle. I will even put it to where the oracle harass begins to see how "wrecked" Dark gets!
Notice what Dark does in this game?? I think that states my case 100%. Neeb had at least 2 free nexus mining that lings would have done SOMETHING at least, even forcing a recall like you guys say is well worth the wasted energy for 20 lings, but okk just pretend magically every pylon on the whole map can instantly start shooting despite how far away the MS is.
See the overlord drops?? no banes, just lings. While drops happening, lings harass the 4th, get the nexus despite 10 adepts there. Corruptors in with spray.. etc. OMG A BURROW SIGHTING!! He even sent 3 ultras into a cannon-defended base just to draw Stat's attention away.. This is how you play zerg, or you could just say "Welp, I know Protoss is OP so no point putting effort in getting better". Your choice.
Watch close at 22:18 - a 10 ling runby in the main to fight cannons + adepts, and listen to the casters (think its Rotti?? of course, a protoss player) - "That runby was so important!" omg who knew even 10 Lings were useful in the lategame! Not TeamLiquid!
I rest my case. Go study please.
If you think you know better than me id be happy to play a betmatch
On October 16 2017 06:57 SnowfaLL wrote: a completely undefended main that one sneaked overlord with a nydus could decimate in seconds with cracklings.
For the time it takes for a nydus to be built, enough lings coming out of it and destroying a nexus, Neeb would have had time to recall 10 times. Every other supposition you are making about scarlett potential harassment can be answered by the same thing: recall. You are the embodiment of the backseat twitch chat GM meme. It's obvious you either don't play starcraft or at a very low level, because your theory crafting makes absolutely no sense. Scarlett didn't play perfectly but neither did Neeb, actually he came very close to throwing the game due to some questionable fights. His saving grace was actually mining on Scarlett's side of the map which allowed him to spam zealot harass and win despite losing more ressources overall. If you wanna be critical of Scarlett's play, focus on that part of the game, unless in your world nydus and cracklings kill 15 cannons and a nexus in 3 seconds.
Oh I'll even do you zerg memers one better.. Look, a replay! Dark vs Stats. Same situation, lategame skytoss vs wall of spores.. opening was oracle. I will even put it to where the oracle harass begins to see how "wrecked" Dark gets!
Notice what Dark does in this game?? I think that states my case 100%. Neeb had at least 2 free nexus mining that lings would have done SOMETHING at least, even forcing a recall like you guys say is well worth the wasted energy for 20 lings, but okk just pretend magically every pylon on the whole map can instantly start shooting despite how far away the MS is.
See the overlord drops?? no banes, just lings. While drops happening, lings harass the 4th, get the nexus despite 10 adepts there. Corruptors in with spray.. etc. OMG A BURROW SIGHTING!! He even sent 3 ultras into a cannon-defended base just to draw Stat's attention away.. This is how you play zerg, or you could just say "Welp, I know Protoss is OP so no point putting effort in getting better". Your choice.
Watch close at 22:18 - a 10 ling runby in the main to fight cannons + adepts, and listen to the casters (think its Rotti?? of course, a protoss player) - "That runby was so important!" omg who knew even 10 Lings were useful in the lategame! Not TeamLiquid!
I rest my case. Go study please.
If you think you know better than me id be happy to play a betmatch
Oh snap! I love watching people being being told to put their money where their mouth is .
On October 16 2017 06:57 SnowfaLL wrote: a completely undefended main that one sneaked overlord with a nydus could decimate in seconds with cracklings.
For the time it takes for a nydus to be built, enough lings coming out of it and destroying a nexus, Neeb would have had time to recall 10 times. Every other supposition you are making about scarlett potential harassment can be answered by the same thing: recall. You are the embodiment of the backseat twitch chat GM meme. It's obvious you either don't play starcraft or at a very low level, because your theory crafting makes absolutely no sense. Scarlett didn't play perfectly but neither did Neeb, actually he came very close to throwing the game due to some questionable fights. His saving grace was actually mining on Scarlett's side of the map which allowed him to spam zealot harass and win despite losing more ressources overall. If you wanna be critical of Scarlett's play, focus on that part of the game, unless in your world nydus and cracklings kill 15 cannons and a nexus in 3 seconds.
Oh I'll even do you zerg memers one better.. Look, a replay! Dark vs Stats. Same situation, lategame skytoss vs wall of spores.. opening was oracle. I will even put it to where the oracle harass begins to see how "wrecked" Dark gets!
Notice what Dark does in this game?? I think that states my case 100%. Neeb had at least 2 free nexus mining that lings would have done SOMETHING at least, even forcing a recall like you guys say is well worth the wasted energy for 20 lings, but okk just pretend magically every pylon on the whole map can instantly start shooting despite how far away the MS is.
See the overlord drops?? no banes, just lings. While drops happening, lings harass the 4th, get the nexus despite 10 adepts there. Corruptors in with spray.. etc. OMG A BURROW SIGHTING!! He even sent 3 ultras into a cannon-defended base just to draw Stat's attention away.. This is how you play zerg, or you could just say "Welp, I know Protoss is OP so no point putting effort in getting better". Your choice.
Watch close at 22:18 - a 10 ling runby in the main to fight cannons + adepts, and listen to the casters (think its Rotti?? of course, a protoss player) - "That runby was so important!" omg who knew even 10 Lings were useful in the lategame! Not TeamLiquid!
I rest my case. Go study please.
If you think you know better than me id be happy to play a betmatch
Oh snap! I love watching people being being told to put their money where their mouth is .
His argument suffers from a plethora of issues such as false analogies, and generalizations, but "1v1 me bro, I'm a stronger player so I know better" is hardly a rebuttal.
When non-Korean Terran players complain about balance, responses typically express the sentiment of "get good". One of the best if not the best Korean player at the moment is a Zerg and he's a ZvP god, including being a master of defeating late game skytoss armies, so the response to non-Korean Zerg players whining should be "get good".
On October 16 2017 06:57 SnowfaLL wrote: a completely undefended main that one sneaked overlord with a nydus could decimate in seconds with cracklings.
For the time it takes for a nydus to be built, enough lings coming out of it and destroying a nexus, Neeb would have had time to recall 10 times. Every other supposition you are making about scarlett potential harassment can be answered by the same thing: recall. You are the embodiment of the backseat twitch chat GM meme. It's obvious you either don't play starcraft or at a very low level, because your theory crafting makes absolutely no sense. Scarlett didn't play perfectly but neither did Neeb, actually he came very close to throwing the game due to some questionable fights. His saving grace was actually mining on Scarlett's side of the map which allowed him to spam zealot harass and win despite losing more ressources overall. If you wanna be critical of Scarlett's play, focus on that part of the game, unless in your world nydus and cracklings kill 15 cannons and a nexus in 3 seconds.
Oh I'll even do you zerg memers one better.. Look, a replay! Dark vs Stats. Same situation, lategame skytoss vs wall of spores.. opening was oracle. I will even put it to where the oracle harass begins to see how "wrecked" Dark gets!
Notice what Dark does in this game?? I think that states my case 100%. Neeb had at least 2 free nexus mining that lings would have done SOMETHING at least, even forcing a recall like you guys say is well worth the wasted energy for 20 lings, but okk just pretend magically every pylon on the whole map can instantly start shooting despite how far away the MS is.
See the overlord drops?? no banes, just lings. While drops happening, lings harass the 4th, get the nexus despite 10 adepts there. Corruptors in with spray.. etc. OMG A BURROW SIGHTING!! He even sent 3 ultras into a cannon-defended base just to draw Stat's attention away.. This is how you play zerg, or you could just say "Welp, I know Protoss is OP so no point putting effort in getting better". Your choice.
Watch close at 22:18 - a 10 ling runby in the main to fight cannons + adepts, and listen to the casters (think its Rotti?? of course, a protoss player) - "That runby was so important!" omg who knew even 10 Lings were useful in the lategame! Not TeamLiquid!
I rest my case. Go study please.
If you think you know better than me id be happy to play a betmatch
Obviously you'd wipe the floor with me (even if I used to be GM, but just started playing again this past month) but my point is, PLEASE stop with the "protoss is OP' crap.. You are too talented to be placing blame on your race with all the race switching crap and etc.. This is what bugs me, this whole finals of KOTN was basically just an hour of "Well Scarlett knows she wont win so shes going to offrace and have fun" and signs of "Buff Oracles" joking going around and stuff. Just play the games, if you win you win, if you lose you lose.
It's just a typical foreigner zerg thing.. IdrA really started it off, another foreigner with korean-like mechanics like you, but for some reason had this mental block when it comes to playing certain people like HuK (and oddly enough, playing protoss) - Korean zergs don't have this.. It frustrates me cause I want you to be Code S / GSL winning and I do think you are capable, once you stop placing blame on balance and start realizing you can beat anyone if you believe.
You can blame your fans and their constant zerg balance whining for my harsh critics. I'm just trying to explain to the page full of "Protoss is so balanced.." posts with "Well, Scarlett had a chance that game" - WHICH YOU DID. You can't deny that. Obviously game is hard, its not "easy" when you are taxed mentally, but you had a chance that game, it wasnt like it was a 100% loss. This is my point. But your fans just see "Scarlett lost, shes the best mechanical foreigner in the world, so of course protoss is broken!"
On October 17 2017 07:49 Boggyb wrote: When non-Korean Terran players complain about balance, responses typically express the sentiment of "get good". One of the best if not the best Korean player at the moment is a Zerg and he's a ZvP god, including being a master of defeating late game skytoss armies, so the response to non-Korean Zerg players whining should be "get good".
But this is exactly what the foreign SC2 community is. Zerg's have a built in excuse for some reason, they never need to "play better" cause they play "the weak race" but yet any Terran or Protoss who loses a game is just a bad player. Any Protoss who wins ANY game, is just a lame cheeser who has no skill, just go read TeamLiquid/Reddit threads Twitch chat when NEEB of all people wins games.. Unreal.
It's like avilo's mentality, but for some reason its a widely accepted opinion outside of korea for ALL zerg players. I don't know how everyone got so brainwashed to believe it..
The game is so different in Korea than it is in the rest of the world.. It almost seems like we're playing 2 different games. The way the foreigner community reacts almost seems like there is "SC2-Korean mode" where the races are normal, and "SC2 Foreign mode" where every zerg unit start with 30% less health. This is how I preceive the general balance consencus when hearing casters/forum/reddit talk outside of korea.
Anyways I'm done posting. Clearly this is not getting through. You will do anything to live in the lie that Protoss is imbalanced. I truly believe that Balance plays such a little part in this game, even at a pro level, that if you lose, you lost. If you win, you won. You can say "but Oracles!" but honestly, as soon as Oracles are nerfed next patch, as soon as Scarlett and Snute start losing to another Protoss build in 2018, the whole cycle will start again the exact same way. This is a re-played foreigner concept since 2011, it won't ever change. We need better, unbiased casters to make this community work and make this game live past 10 years. This is why BW is so great, people win and people lose, its up to them. No excuses.
On October 16 2017 16:43 -Kyo- wrote: wtb vods....
Good, because you can literally buy access to their vods on https://www.twitch.tv/eschamp by subscribing, and for a little while longer all subscriptions are half off.
Otherwise, they should be uploaded to their YouTube soon(™). I hope soon-soon, I missed the first few games of the day. ._.
VODs go up on YouTube for everyone after a few days
On October 17 2017 07:49 Boggyb wrote: When non-Korean Terran players complain about balance, responses typically express the sentiment of "get good". One of the best if not the best Korean player at the moment is a Zerg and he's a ZvP god, including being a master of defeating late game skytoss armies, so the response to non-Korean Zerg players whining should be "get good".
But this is exactly what the foreign SC2 community is. Zerg's have a built in excuse for some reason, they never need to "play better" cause they play "the weak race" but yet any Terran or Protoss who loses a game is just a bad player. Any Protoss who wins ANY game, is just a lame cheeser who has no skill, just go read TeamLiquid/Reddit threads Twitch chat when NEEB of all people wins games.. Unreal.
It's like avilo's mentality, but for some reason its a widely accepted opinion outside of korea for ALL zerg players. I don't know how everyone got so brainwashed to believe it..
The game is so different in Korea than it is in the rest of the world.. It almost seems like we're playing 2 different games. The way the foreigner community reacts almost seems like there is "SC2-Korean mode" where the races are normal, and "SC2 Foreign mode" where every zerg unit start with 30% less health. This is how I preceive the general balance consencus when hearing casters/forum/reddit talk outside of korea.
Anyways I'm done posting. Clearly this is not getting through. You will do anything to live in the lie that Protoss is imbalanced. I truly believe that Balance plays such a little part in this game, even at a pro level, that if you lose, you lost. If you win, you won. You can say "but Oracles!" but honestly, as soon as Oracles are nerfed next patch, as soon as Scarlett and Snute start losing to another Protoss build in 2018, the whole cycle will start again the exact same way. This is a re-played foreigner concept since 2011, it won't ever change. We need better, unbiased casters to make this community work and make this game live past 10 years. This is why BW is so great, people win and people lose, its up to them. No excuses.
You really need to chill out.
Perhaps you main as toss and take extreme offense to any comments anyone makes about toss balance when toss wins. I get it, I main zerg and it was annoying, for example, to see so much whining early on in LotV about ZvT Ultralisks being "broken" before Terrans had even had the bothered to effectively incorporate Ghosts in their comps and learn to effectively use Liberators. I thought, "Hey, give it some time before jumping in and nerfing it".
That said, there's nothing wrong with commenting on a game like this and noting subtle things that make it frustrating to watch that could maybe be changed (obv. big changes are coming), like ridiculously long lasting revelation. If you can't have a level headed discussion about it after watching a game like that and at least acknowledge it may have looked bad from a zerg's perspective, then I don't know, I guess that's fine. Maybe once VoDs are up it will be easier to argue the specifics, but no need to get hot headed over it and throw l2p insults at Scarlett with comparisons to a Korean ZvP that played out entirely differently.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9WTd5g3.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8UNtQux.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/vxOdJP8.jpg)
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