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On November 28 2014 06:53 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 06:52 DarkLordOlli wrote:
You can beat go 3-2 in maps against a player in GSL format and still see them advance over you. Every format has its advantages and issues. The issue here is very clear. The upside of this format is that everybody plays everybody.
Different people will prefer different formats. I for one find it nice and refreshing to not have the same format at every tournament. Again the same fallacy. The GSL format is a bracket. Mapscore does not matter. What matters is you win two series. It's entirely in your control. Yes you can argue that if you want to advance out of a round robin you shouldn't lose any maps, but your success or failure is to some degree determined by how well other people in the group do, it's outside of your control. Brackets, especially double-elim are inherently about the fairest you can get and that's why the GSL group format is so widely used. There is no perfect format but to say we should just accept any format because none of them are 100% fair is a fallacy. This format sucks.
No, it does not.
If your performence comes down to the other players, you've lost at least 2 series. Well, if you can't win over 50% of your series, you wouldn't advance in either format.
This Round Robin lets your player play vs everybody. If it was GSL Bracket style, Impact had shit ZvZ and he played Snute, Lost, Polt, Won, Snute, would you complain that he got to play his worst matchup twice and didn't play his best matchup twice?
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 28 2014 06:54 Swede wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 06:51 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 28 2014 06:49 mooncifer wrote:On November 28 2014 06:26 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On November 28 2014 06:25 REyeM wrote:On November 28 2014 06:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Hopefully this junk format is never used again.
Mapscore rather than head to head, 5 man round-robin groups with tie-breakers. Christ it's like 2010 all over again. Beat the top 2 players and lose the group anyway? Seems legit. What is with this guy? This guy paid for a player's flight so that he could compete and show some results. I don't necessarily share the same anger at the format but I very much understand TB's anger. So it's not DreamHack pays players' flights and hotels? Oh…I thought they do it as IEM does, since all these players are invited. Hell no. Dreamhack never pays for any flights and hotels. For players outside of Europe Dreamhack is a gigantic risk. The prizepool for main events outside of the finals is low, the format is massively prone to bracket-screwing, the flight cost is high. If flights were compensated it'd be a different matter entirely, but they're not. And you knew all of this before you sent your players there. You took a risk and you lost. Now go and whinge somewhere else.
The fact that he knew beforehand doesn't change what he's saying at all.
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Thanksgiving is ruined! All your fighting and arguing is tearing this LR apart!
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On November 28 2014 06:56 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 06:53 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 28 2014 06:52 DarkLordOlli wrote:
You can beat go 3-2 in maps against a player in GSL format and still see them advance over you. Every format has its advantages and issues. The issue here is very clear. The upside of this format is that everybody plays everybody.
Different people will prefer different formats. I for one find it nice and refreshing to not have the same format at every tournament. Again the same fallacy. The GSL format is a bracket. Mapscore does not matter. What matters is you win two series. It's entirely in your control. Yes you can argue that if you want to advance out of a round robin you shouldn't lose any maps, but your success or failure is to some degree determined by how well other people in the group do, it's outside of your control. Brackets, especially double-elim are inherently about the fairest you can get and that's why the GSL group format is so widely used. There is no perfect format but to say we should just accept any format because none of them are 100% fair is a fallacy. This format sucks. No, it does not. If your performence comes down to the other players, you've lost at least 2 series. Well, if you can't win over 50% of your series, you wouldn't advance in either format. This Round Robin lets your player play vs everybody. If it was GSL Bracket style, Impact had shit ZvZ and he played Snute, Lost, Polt, Won, Snute, would you complain that he got to play his worst matchup twice and didn't play his best matchup twice?
If this was GSL format Impact would already be through in first place after winning two matchs in a row.
Whatever. People in LR think they know best as usual. They'd feel differently if they just saw a stack of money go up in smoke over a stupid format.
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On November 28 2014 06:54 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 06:53 deacon.frost wrote:
OMG, can someone silence TB?
At the start it was funny, but now he is just annoying. If you do not like the DH format, do not go to DH. Solved. Yeah let's silence the one guy who has any actual investment in the format. LR has the best ideas. Show nested quote +And you knew all of this before you sent your players there. You took a risk and you lost. Now go and whinge somewhere else. Remind me again why you think your opinion is relevant.
Your opinion is not any more relevant than that of anybody else in here.
You pay for a player, which is awesome. I love the team. However: that doesn't entitle you to be more important/right and ignore opposition Avilo style.
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On November 28 2014 06:54 DJHelium wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 06:53 Bagration wrote:On November 28 2014 06:52 stuchiu wrote:On November 28 2014 06:49 Bagration wrote:On November 28 2014 06:47 stuchiu wrote:On November 28 2014 06:47 Bagration wrote:On November 28 2014 06:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 28 2014 06:45 Bagration wrote:On November 28 2014 06:43 fmod wrote:On November 28 2014 06:42 Bagration wrote:
Wow, everyone in group D went 2-2 lol Yeah, and that's I think what gives people this feeling of it being arbitrary/random who is advancing. It's not random - it came down to maps won. There will never be a perfect format that'll satisfy everyone But there are significantly less stupid formats that every other tournament uses which result in a lot less disagreement. Just because you have a ruleset doesn't mean your ruleset is any good. Variety is nice sometimes If they had to do this, I still think using bo1 tiebreaks is far superior to using H2H or map score. But literal coin flips? you mean Lucifron Strelok Yugioh? I literally mocked them for years for doing something that dumb. Yeah. It definitely was a mistake Should just go by Aligulac ranking instead.
Arm-wrestling!
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On November 28 2014 06:57 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 06:56 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 28 2014 06:53 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 28 2014 06:52 DarkLordOlli wrote:
You can beat go 3-2 in maps against a player in GSL format and still see them advance over you. Every format has its advantages and issues. The issue here is very clear. The upside of this format is that everybody plays everybody.
Different people will prefer different formats. I for one find it nice and refreshing to not have the same format at every tournament. Again the same fallacy. The GSL format is a bracket. Mapscore does not matter. What matters is you win two series. It's entirely in your control. Yes you can argue that if you want to advance out of a round robin you shouldn't lose any maps, but your success or failure is to some degree determined by how well other people in the group do, it's outside of your control. Brackets, especially double-elim are inherently about the fairest you can get and that's why the GSL group format is so widely used. There is no perfect format but to say we should just accept any format because none of them are 100% fair is a fallacy. This format sucks. No, it does not. If your performence comes down to the other players, you've lost at least 2 series. Well, if you can't win over 50% of your series, you wouldn't advance in either format. This Round Robin lets your player play vs everybody. If it was GSL Bracket style, Impact had shit ZvZ and he played Snute, Lost, Polt, Won, Snute, would you complain that he got to play his worst matchup twice and didn't play his best matchup twice? If this was GSL format Impact would already be through in first place after winning two matchs in a row.
But that was just the luck of the fact that his Snute match didn't come between his two wins?
EDIT: Unless match order was on seeding system I know nothing about
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On November 28 2014 06:54 Musicus wrote:
I like round robin, everybody plays everybody, what could be more fair? In bracket formats you can dodge the strongest player or go out against somone you beat 3-2.
Especially here in group D there is no problem at all imo. They all played each other, the guy with a +2 mapscore is first, the two with 0 are second and third and the two with -1 are out. If it had came down to a coin flip again, then I'd understand if people are upset, but now it worked out just as intended.
Edit: I do think it sucks that DH doesn't pay for the flights for the Winter finals at least. All these players qualified by already spending money to go their open events.
The big disadvantage imo is where players have to play matches that have no meaning for them, just so other players can decide who's winning the group due to map score.
Also coin flips of course, but that shouldn't happen - just play another bo1 round.
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On November 28 2014 06:54 Swede wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 06:51 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 28 2014 06:49 mooncifer wrote:On November 28 2014 06:26 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On November 28 2014 06:25 REyeM wrote:On November 28 2014 06:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Hopefully this junk format is never used again.
Mapscore rather than head to head, 5 man round-robin groups with tie-breakers. Christ it's like 2010 all over again. Beat the top 2 players and lose the group anyway? Seems legit. What is with this guy? This guy paid for a player's flight so that he could compete and show some results. I don't necessarily share the same anger at the format but I very much understand TB's anger. So it's not DreamHack pays players' flights and hotels? Oh…I thought they do it as IEM does, since all these players are invited. Hell no. Dreamhack never pays for any flights and hotels. For players outside of Europe Dreamhack is a gigantic risk. The prizepool for main events outside of the finals is low, the format is massively prone to bracket-screwing, the flight cost is high. If flights were compensated it'd be a different matter entirely, but they're not. And you knew all of this before you sent your players there. You took a risk and you lost. Now go and whinge somewhere else.
Well, I think it's still weird to not compensate for the players flight/hotels in an "invite only"-tournament. As far as I know for most (invite only! Or some kind of season finale or whatever) tournaments these costs are compensated, aren't they?
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On November 28 2014 06:57 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 06:56 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 28 2014 06:53 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 28 2014 06:52 DarkLordOlli wrote:
You can beat go 3-2 in maps against a player in GSL format and still see them advance over you. Every format has its advantages and issues. The issue here is very clear. The upside of this format is that everybody plays everybody.
Different people will prefer different formats. I for one find it nice and refreshing to not have the same format at every tournament. Again the same fallacy. The GSL format is a bracket. Mapscore does not matter. What matters is you win two series. It's entirely in your control. Yes you can argue that if you want to advance out of a round robin you shouldn't lose any maps, but your success or failure is to some degree determined by how well other people in the group do, it's outside of your control. Brackets, especially double-elim are inherently about the fairest you can get and that's why the GSL group format is so widely used. There is no perfect format but to say we should just accept any format because none of them are 100% fair is a fallacy. This format sucks. No, it does not. If your performence comes down to the other players, you've lost at least 2 series. Well, if you can't win over 50% of your series, you wouldn't advance in either format. This Round Robin lets your player play vs everybody. If it was GSL Bracket style, Impact had shit ZvZ and he played Snute, Lost, Polt, Won, Snute, would you complain that he got to play his worst matchup twice and didn't play his best matchup twice? If this was GSL format Impact would already be through in first place after winning two matchs in a row.
But what if the order of matches was the other way around 0_0?! He lost twice and went out.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 28 2014 06:54 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 06:53 deacon.frost wrote:
OMG, can someone silence TB?
At the start it was funny, but now he is just annoying. If you do not like the DH format, do not go to DH. Solved. Yeah let's silence the one guy who has any actual investment in the format. LR has the best ideas. Show nested quote +And you knew all of this before you sent your players there. You took a risk and you lost. Now go and whinge somewhere else. Remind me again why you think your opinion is relevant.
What is funny - you did not answer the second opinion. You know the format and you go there, therefore you accept the format. I do not understand you. You sent there a player with knowing what format they use and then you cry all over the internets how the system screwed with your player? You must be joking, right?
Well, now it becomes maybe more funny again... :-) Entertain me, your Highness 
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On November 28 2014 06:54 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 06:52 Nayolbi wrote:On November 28 2014 06:41 TotalBiscuit wrote:
It's probably why Dreamhack has such weird finalists, it's down to a lot of bracket luck most of the time. Just like that one guy who played against Life in the finals in Bucharest ... i can't remember his name sadly :p That's just nasty. Impact is a very cool player and played some entertaining and superscrappy games today!
i was joking.... trying to bait :p ofc he is a great player
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If Life doesn't win this tournament, I will be shocked. Even Taeja got rekt.
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On November 28 2014 06:56 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 06:54 Swede wrote:On November 28 2014 06:51 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 28 2014 06:49 mooncifer wrote:On November 28 2014 06:26 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On November 28 2014 06:25 REyeM wrote:On November 28 2014 06:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Hopefully this junk format is never used again.
Mapscore rather than head to head, 5 man round-robin groups with tie-breakers. Christ it's like 2010 all over again. Beat the top 2 players and lose the group anyway? Seems legit. What is with this guy? This guy paid for a player's flight so that he could compete and show some results. I don't necessarily share the same anger at the format but I very much understand TB's anger. So it's not DreamHack pays players' flights and hotels? Oh…I thought they do it as IEM does, since all these players are invited. Hell no. Dreamhack never pays for any flights and hotels. For players outside of Europe Dreamhack is a gigantic risk. The prizepool for main events outside of the finals is low, the format is massively prone to bracket-screwing, the flight cost is high. If flights were compensated it'd be a different matter entirely, but they're not. And you knew all of this before you sent your players there. You took a risk and you lost. Now go and whinge somewhere else. The fact that he knew beforehand doesn't change what he's saying at all.
His criticism of the format might be legit, but he's also been complaining that he's been fucked out of some money. That's what I'm responding too.
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On November 28 2014 06:58 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 06:54 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 28 2014 06:53 deacon.frost wrote:
OMG, can someone silence TB?
At the start it was funny, but now he is just annoying. If you do not like the DH format, do not go to DH. Solved. Yeah let's silence the one guy who has any actual investment in the format. LR has the best ideas. And you knew all of this before you sent your players there. You took a risk and you lost. Now go and whinge somewhere else. Remind me again why you think your opinion is relevant. What is funny - you did not answer the second opinion. You know the format and you go there, therefore you accept the format. I do not understand you. You sent there a player with knowing what format they use and then you cry all over the internets how the system screwed with your player? You must be joking, right? Well, now it becomes maybe more funny again... :-) Entertain me, your Highness
Senpai noticed you.
Now fuck off.
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On November 28 2014 06:56 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 06:54 Swede wrote:On November 28 2014 06:51 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 28 2014 06:49 mooncifer wrote:On November 28 2014 06:26 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On November 28 2014 06:25 REyeM wrote:On November 28 2014 06:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Hopefully this junk format is never used again.
Mapscore rather than head to head, 5 man round-robin groups with tie-breakers. Christ it's like 2010 all over again. Beat the top 2 players and lose the group anyway? Seems legit. What is with this guy? This guy paid for a player's flight so that he could compete and show some results. I don't necessarily share the same anger at the format but I very much understand TB's anger. So it's not DreamHack pays players' flights and hotels? Oh…I thought they do it as IEM does, since all these players are invited. Hell no. Dreamhack never pays for any flights and hotels. For players outside of Europe Dreamhack is a gigantic risk. The prizepool for main events outside of the finals is low, the format is massively prone to bracket-screwing, the flight cost is high. If flights were compensated it'd be a different matter entirely, but they're not. And you knew all of this before you sent your players there. You took a risk and you lost. Now go and whinge somewhere else. The fact that he knew beforehand doesn't change what he's saying at all.
But complaining afterwards when a format he choose for works out against him (in very frustrating fashion, I agree), that doesn't give you the right to insult everybody who says you knew it beforehand and took a risk.
We can discuss the formats' quircks. But rambling about paying for the flights and being personally invested is not relevant to that discussion or the legitimacy of other peoples' arguments - at all.
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Juding from Snute's twitter, he seems to not mind getting knock out of the tournament. He lost his passion?
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jjakji vs Patience  He's just the kind of protoss jjakji loses to.
Hopefully he will advance. I think he has what it takes to win vs JD/Taeja, his TvT looked great today.
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Everyone else is out arguing, and I'm just sitting here eating popcorn
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On November 28 2014 07:00 ptbl wrote:
Juding from Snute's twitter, he seems to not mind getting knock out of the tournament. He lost his passion?
yes, he should rather bring the excuses: " i didnt eat for two month and jyp kicked me"
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EPT
