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On November 28 2014 06:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 06:48 SatedSC2 wrote:On November 28 2014 06:40 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 28 2014 06:37 SatedSC2 wrote:Both this format and the GSL format have flaws. Neither of them is perfect. They're both perfectly valid and yet are capable of throwing up unfair situations fairly frequently. For example, how many times have we seen someone go out of a GSL-style group with a "winning" map-score vs. the person they lose to in the deciding match..? + Show Spoiler [By which I mean...] +Player A 2-0 Player B <- First Match
Player A Loses Winner's Match
Player B Wins Loser's Match
Player A 1-2 Player B <- Deciding Match
3-2 to Player A in total, but Player B goes through! If in football a round-robin format that uses goal-difference and goals scored (equivalent to map-score) before looking at games between the tied teams is good enough for the World Cup, then it's good enough for DreamHack. Map score is so fucking irrelevant though. The GSL format is fair because it's a bracket. Lose 2 series and you're out, it's that simple. To get out of the group you still have to be the better player, you still gotta beat 2 opponents. In this format, you can get kicked out of the group through results that you have no chance to influence. You can beat the top 2 players, as Impact did and then lose anyway because of mapscore in other series. In the sequence of events I just gave, the two players are 1-1 in series score if you're considering map-score to be irrelevant (which is isn't because maps themselves can play a big part in how series play out but whatever). You can't possibly claim that it is wholly fair for the player with more maps won to go out just because they happened to lose the second series instead of the first series. The two players are literally tied in series won vs. each other. If you can't see that the GSL format also has flaws then whatever. I just take it for what it is: Ultimately if you win all your games then you won't have anything to be salty about and that's what all competitive people should be striving to do instead of bitching about the fucking format. Frankly I don't give a shit about what your opinion is on the format. You're not paying for the damn flights, your emotional and financial investment in the formats is zero.
You went for the decision to pay for that flight knowing fully well that this is a risk you took. You cannot complain about a format in hindsight after Impact sadly got knocked out. Also, the fact you are "emotionally and financially invested" doesn't make your arguments any more important that those of others.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On November 28 2014 06:49 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 06:47 stuchiu wrote:On November 28 2014 06:47 Bagration wrote:On November 28 2014 06:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 28 2014 06:45 Bagration wrote:On November 28 2014 06:43 fmod wrote:On November 28 2014 06:42 Bagration wrote:
Wow, everyone in group D went 2-2 lol Yeah, and that's I think what gives people this feeling of it being arbitrary/random who is advancing. It's not random - it came down to maps won. There will never be a perfect format that'll satisfy everyone But there are significantly less stupid formats that every other tournament uses which result in a lot less disagreement. Just because you have a ruleset doesn't mean your ruleset is any good. Variety is nice sometimes If they had to do this, I still think using bo1 tiebreaks is far superior to using H2H or map score. But literal coin flips?
you mean Lucifron Strelok Yugioh? I literally mocked them for years for doing something that dumb.
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On November 28 2014 06:51 Lorning wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 06:50 stuchiu wrote:On November 28 2014 06:47 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On November 28 2014 06:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So I think we can determine from this and Blizzcon is that Zerg is crazy UP and Life is stupidly good. It's like stuchiu says, there's always that one zerg asshole that does well and stops us from getting buffed. Started with Fruitdealer, went to Nestea, 1 month of Leenock, went to DRG (BL/infestor era) then Life then Soulkey then soO, now back to Life. And next year to TerrOr #TheRiseOfTerrOr
Yeah, but ...it's terror. :/
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On November 28 2014 06:41 TotalBiscuit wrote:
It's probably why Dreamhack has such weird finalists, it's down to a lot of bracket luck most of the time.
Just like that one guy who played against Life in the finals in Bucharest ... i can't remember his name sadly :p
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
OMG, can someone silence TB?
At the start it was funny, but now he is just annoying. If you do not like the DH format, do not go to DH. Solved.
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
On November 28 2014 06:52 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 06:51 Lorning wrote:On November 28 2014 06:50 stuchiu wrote:On November 28 2014 06:47 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On November 28 2014 06:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So I think we can determine from this and Blizzcon is that Zerg is crazy UP and Life is stupidly good. It's like stuchiu says, there's always that one zerg asshole that does well and stops us from getting buffed. Started with Fruitdealer, went to Nestea, 1 month of Leenock, went to DRG (BL/infestor era) then Life then Soulkey then soO, now back to Life. And next year to TerrOr #TheRiseOfTerrOr Yeah, but ...it's terror. :/
BELIEVE
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On November 28 2014 06:52 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 06:49 Bagration wrote:On November 28 2014 06:47 stuchiu wrote:On November 28 2014 06:47 Bagration wrote:On November 28 2014 06:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 28 2014 06:45 Bagration wrote:On November 28 2014 06:43 fmod wrote:On November 28 2014 06:42 Bagration wrote:
Wow, everyone in group D went 2-2 lol Yeah, and that's I think what gives people this feeling of it being arbitrary/random who is advancing. It's not random - it came down to maps won. There will never be a perfect format that'll satisfy everyone But there are significantly less stupid formats that every other tournament uses which result in a lot less disagreement. Just because you have a ruleset doesn't mean your ruleset is any good. Variety is nice sometimes If they had to do this, I still think using bo1 tiebreaks is far superior to using H2H or map score. But literal coin flips? you mean Lucifron Strelok Yugioh? I literally mocked them for years for doing something that dumb.
Yeah. It definitely was a mistake
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On November 28 2014 06:52 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 06:49 Bagration wrote:On November 28 2014 06:47 stuchiu wrote:On November 28 2014 06:47 Bagration wrote:On November 28 2014 06:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 28 2014 06:45 Bagration wrote:On November 28 2014 06:43 fmod wrote:On November 28 2014 06:42 Bagration wrote:
Wow, everyone in group D went 2-2 lol Yeah, and that's I think what gives people this feeling of it being arbitrary/random who is advancing. It's not random - it came down to maps won. There will never be a perfect format that'll satisfy everyone But there are significantly less stupid formats that every other tournament uses which result in a lot less disagreement. Just because you have a ruleset doesn't mean your ruleset is any good. Variety is nice sometimes If they had to do this, I still think using bo1 tiebreaks is far superior to using H2H or map score. But literal coin flips? you mean Lucifron Strelok Yugioh? I literally mocked them for years for doing something that dumb.
Hell it got mocked 20 or so pages ago
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On November 28 2014 06:52 DarkLordOlli wrote:
You can beat go 3-2 in maps against a player in GSL format and still see them advance over you. Every format has its advantages and issues. The issue here is very clear. The upside of this format is that everybody plays everybody.
Different people will prefer different formats. I for one find it nice and refreshing to not have the same format at every tournament.
Again the same fallacy. The GSL format is a bracket. Mapscore does not matter. What matters is you win two series. It's entirely in your control. Yes you can argue that if you want to advance out of a round robin you shouldn't lose any maps, but your success or failure is to some degree determined by how well other people in the group do, it's outside of your control.
Brackets, especially double-elim are inherently about the fairest you can get and that's why the GSL group format is so widely used. There is no perfect format but to say we should just accept any format because none of them are 100% fair is a fallacy. This format sucks.
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On November 28 2014 06:53 deacon.frost wrote:
OMG, can someone silence TB?
At the start it was funny, but now he is just annoying. If you do not like the DH format, do not go to DH. Solved.
no offense but you can just ignore him? lol like people have a right to say as long as it's not harassment or anything. He's stating his opinion and you don't have to agree or respect it hahaha.
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On November 28 2014 06:52 Nayolbi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 06:41 TotalBiscuit wrote:
It's probably why Dreamhack has such weird finalists, it's down to a lot of bracket luck most of the time. Just like that one guy who played against Life in the finals in Bucharest ... i can't remember his name sadly :p
That's just nasty. Impact is a very cool player and played some entertaining and superscrappy games today!
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On November 28 2014 06:53 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 06:52 stuchiu wrote:On November 28 2014 06:49 Bagration wrote:On November 28 2014 06:47 stuchiu wrote:On November 28 2014 06:47 Bagration wrote:On November 28 2014 06:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 28 2014 06:45 Bagration wrote:On November 28 2014 06:43 fmod wrote:On November 28 2014 06:42 Bagration wrote:
Wow, everyone in group D went 2-2 lol Yeah, and that's I think what gives people this feeling of it being arbitrary/random who is advancing. It's not random - it came down to maps won. There will never be a perfect format that'll satisfy everyone But there are significantly less stupid formats that every other tournament uses which result in a lot less disagreement. Just because you have a ruleset doesn't mean your ruleset is any good. Variety is nice sometimes If they had to do this, I still think using bo1 tiebreaks is far superior to using H2H or map score. But literal coin flips? you mean Lucifron Strelok Yugioh? I literally mocked them for years for doing something that dumb. Yeah. It definitely was a mistake
Should just go by Aligulac ranking instead.
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On November 28 2014 06:53 Lorning wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 06:52 Bagration wrote:On November 28 2014 06:51 Lorning wrote:On November 28 2014 06:50 stuchiu wrote:On November 28 2014 06:47 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On November 28 2014 06:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So I think we can determine from this and Blizzcon is that Zerg is crazy UP and Life is stupidly good. It's like stuchiu says, there's always that one zerg asshole that does well and stops us from getting buffed. Started with Fruitdealer, went to Nestea, 1 month of Leenock, went to DRG (BL/infestor era) then Life then Soulkey then soO, now back to Life. And next year to TerrOr #TheRiseOfTerrOr Yeah, but ...it's terror. :/ BELIEVE
Too many years in SC2, too cynical now, losing ability to believe
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Impact lost more games than everyone except jjakji, and jjakji won more games. You can't just twist the rules to justify your player not making it out.
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On November 28 2014 06:51 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 06:49 mooncifer wrote:On November 28 2014 06:26 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On November 28 2014 06:25 REyeM wrote:On November 28 2014 06:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Hopefully this junk format is never used again.
Mapscore rather than head to head, 5 man round-robin groups with tie-breakers. Christ it's like 2010 all over again. Beat the top 2 players and lose the group anyway? Seems legit. What is with this guy? This guy paid for a player's flight so that he could compete and show some results. I don't necessarily share the same anger at the format but I very much understand TB's anger. So it's not DreamHack pays players' flights and hotels? Oh…I thought they do it as IEM does, since all these players are invited. Hell no. Dreamhack never pays for any flights and hotels. For players outside of Europe Dreamhack is a gigantic risk. The prizepool for main events outside of the finals is low, the format is massively prone to bracket-screwing, the flight cost is high. If flights were compensated it'd be a different matter entirely, but they're not.
And you knew all of this before you sent your players there. You took a risk and you lost. Now go and whinge somewhere else.
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On November 28 2014 06:53 deacon.frost wrote:
OMG, can someone silence TB?
At the start it was funny, but now he is just annoying. If you do not like the DH format, do not go to DH. Solved.
Yeah let's silence the one guy who has any actual investment in the format. LR has the best ideas.
And you knew all of this before you sent your players there. You took a risk and you lost. Now go and whinge somewhere else.
Remind me again why you think your opinion is relevant.
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I like round robin, everybody plays everybody, what could be more fair? In bracket formats you can dodge the strongest player or go out against somone you beat 3-2.
Especially here in group D there is no problem at all imo. They all played each other, the guy with a +2 mapscore is first, the two with 0 are second and third and the two with -1 are out. If it had came down to a coin flip again, then I'd understand if people are upset, but now it worked out just as intended.
Edit: I do think it sucks that DH doesn't pay for the flights for the Winter finals at least. All these players qualified by already spending money to go their open events.
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On November 28 2014 06:53 Lorning wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 06:52 Bagration wrote:On November 28 2014 06:51 Lorning wrote:On November 28 2014 06:50 stuchiu wrote:On November 28 2014 06:47 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On November 28 2014 06:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So I think we can determine from this and Blizzcon is that Zerg is crazy UP and Life is stupidly good. It's like stuchiu says, there's always that one zerg asshole that does well and stops us from getting buffed. Started with Fruitdealer, went to Nestea, 1 month of Leenock, went to DRG (BL/infestor era) then Life then Soulkey then soO, now back to Life. And next year to TerrOr #TheRiseOfTerrOr Yeah, but ...it's terror. :/ BELIEVE
KT.Believe?
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On November 28 2014 06:51 Lorning wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 06:50 stuchiu wrote:On November 28 2014 06:47 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On November 28 2014 06:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So I think we can determine from this and Blizzcon is that Zerg is crazy UP and Life is stupidly good. It's like stuchiu says, there's always that one zerg asshole that does well and stops us from getting buffed. Started with Fruitdealer, went to Nestea, 1 month of Leenock, went to DRG (BL/infestor era) then Life then Soulkey then soO, now back to Life. And next year to TerrOr #TheRiseOfTerrOr
Keep dreaming bro
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EPT
