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[DreamHack] Winter 2014 - Day 1 - Page 109

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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Makro
Profile Joined March 2011
France16890 Posts
November 27 2014 21:48 GMT
#2161
hahahaha 2-2 everywhere holy shit
Matthew 5:10 "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of shitposting, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven".
TL+ Member
SatedSC2
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
England3012 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-27 21:50:00
November 27 2014 21:48 GMT
#2162
--- Nuked ---
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
November 27 2014 21:48 GMT
#2163
On November 28 2014 06:47 stuchiu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2014 06:47 Bagration wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:45 Bagration wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:43 fmod wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:42 Bagration wrote:
Wow, everyone in group D went 2-2 lol

Yeah, and that's I think what gives people this feeling of it being arbitrary/random who is advancing.


It's not random - it came down to maps won. There will never be a perfect format that'll satisfy everyone


But there are significantly less stupid formats that every other tournament uses which result in a lot less disagreement.

Just because you have a ruleset doesn't mean your ruleset is any good.


Variety is nice sometimes


If they had to do this, I still think using bo1 tiebreaks is far superior to using H2H or map score.

That's true.
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
Bagration
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States18282 Posts
November 27 2014 21:49 GMT
#2164
On November 28 2014 06:47 stuchiu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2014 06:47 Bagration wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:45 Bagration wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:43 fmod wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:42 Bagration wrote:
Wow, everyone in group D went 2-2 lol

Yeah, and that's I think what gives people this feeling of it being arbitrary/random who is advancing.


It's not random - it came down to maps won. There will never be a perfect format that'll satisfy everyone


But there are significantly less stupid formats that every other tournament uses which result in a lot less disagreement.

Just because you have a ruleset doesn't mean your ruleset is any good.


Variety is nice sometimes


If they had to do this, I still think using bo1 tiebreaks is far superior to using H2H or map score.


But literal coin flips?
Team Slayers, Axiom-Acer and Vile forever
Boucot
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
France15997 Posts
November 27 2014 21:49 GMT
#2165
On November 28 2014 06:47 KingofdaHipHop wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2014 06:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So I think we can determine from this and Blizzcon is that Zerg is crazy UP and Life is stupidly good.

It's like stuchiu says, there's always that one zerg asshole that does well and stops us from getting buffed.

The Zerg TaeJa.
Former SC2 writer for Millenium - twitter.com/Boucot
Swisslink
Profile Joined March 2011
2958 Posts
November 27 2014 21:49 GMT
#2166
On November 28 2014 06:43 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2014 06:42 Swisslink wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:41 TotalBiscuit wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:40 Swisslink wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:39 stuchiu wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:38 BlackCompany wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:37 Boucot wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:36 BlackCompany wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:34 Aeromi wrote:


I think he shows 0-4
Thats the score he gets in the next bo3s
+ Show Spoiler +
just kidding

There are no next bo3s. ONLY BO5 NOW ! (And Bo7 for the final)


What? Did dreamhack really stop their bo3s till finals stuff?
cant believe i missed that :o


only for the final tournament in the circuit (i.e. this one)


But last year everything beside the losers- and the grandfinale were Bo3, wasn't it?


There was no losers finals, Dreamhack does RO16 onwards single elim bo3 with bo5 finals. It's absolutely terrible. It's probably why Dreamhack has such weird finalists, it's down to a lot of bracket luck most of the time.


http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_DreamHack_Open/Winter

It's only in DH Winters - the other Dreamhack tournaments got even weirder formats :-P


Yeah we're not talkin about winter we're talking about all the other events leading up to it.

And that's the end of the group, everyone with 2-2 series score. Headsmashingly stupid format, look at those results.


Well, yeah, the other Dreamhack Tournaments are pretty fucked up. Mainly because it's Bo3 all the way, which is just... stupid, imo

And it's really unfortunate for Impact... Hoped for at least one of those 2 Zerg to advance.

On November 28 2014 06:44 RaFox17 wrote:
Sad for Snute. Luckily 2 zergs are still in. Life and JD fighting!


... Life shines as soon as every other Zerg screws up.
mooncifer
Profile Joined October 2012
109 Posts
November 27 2014 21:49 GMT
#2167
On November 28 2014 06:26 KingofdaHipHop wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2014 06:25 REyeM wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Hopefully this junk format is never used again.

Mapscore rather than head to head, 5 man round-robin groups with tie-breakers. Christ it's like 2010 all over again. Beat the top 2 players and lose the group anyway? Seems legit.


What is with this guy?

This guy paid for a player's flight so that he could compete and show some results. I don't necessarily share the same anger at the format but I very much understand TB's anger.


So it's not DreamHack pays players' flights and hotels? Oh…I thought they do it as IEM does, since all these players are invited.
dedicate
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
November 27 2014 21:50 GMT
#2168
On November 28 2014 06:48 SatedSC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2014 06:40 TotalBiscuit wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:37 SatedSC2 wrote:
Both this format and the GSL format have flaws. Neither of them is perfect. They're both perfectly valid and yet are capable of throwing up unfair situations fairly frequently. For example, how many times have we seen someone go out of a GSL-style group with a "winning" map-score vs. the person they lose to in the deciding match..?

+ Show Spoiler [By which I mean...] +
Player A 2-0 Player B <- First Match
Player A Loses Winner's Match
Player B Wins Loser's Match
Player A 1-2 Player B <- Deciding Match

3-2 to Player A in total, but Player B goes through!


If in football a round-robin format that uses goal-difference and goals scored (equivalent to map-score) before looking at games between the tied teams is good enough for the World Cup, then it's good enough for DreamHack.

Map score is so fucking irrelevant though. The GSL format is fair because it's a bracket. Lose 2 series and you're out, it's that simple. To get out of the group you still have to be the better player, you still gotta beat 2 opponents. In this format, you can get kicked out of the group through results that you have no chance to influence. You can beat the top 2 players, as Impact did and then lose anyway because of mapscore in other series.

In the sequence of events I just gave, the two players are 1-1 in series score if you're considering map-score to be irrelevant (which is isn't because maps themselves can play a big part in how series play out but whatever). You can't possibly claim that it is wholly fair for the player with more maps won to go out just because they happened to lose the second series instead of the first series. The two players are literally tied in series won vs. each other. If you can't see that the GSL format also has flaws then whatever. I just take it for what it is: Ultimately if you win all your games then you won't have anything to be salty about and that's what all competitive people should be striving to do instead of bitching about the fucking format.

In GSL format you can go out with a far superior score compared to your opponent.

You can lose 3-2 0_0?!
You can go 4 wins and lose against a player with 2 total wins!?

That's odd too bro
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
TotalBiscuit
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United Kingdom5437 Posts
November 27 2014 21:50 GMT
#2169
On November 28 2014 06:48 SatedSC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2014 06:40 TotalBiscuit wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:37 SatedSC2 wrote:
Both this format and the GSL format have flaws. Neither of them is perfect. They're both perfectly valid and yet are capable of throwing up unfair situations fairly frequently. For example, how many times have we seen someone go out of a GSL-style group with a "winning" map-score vs. the person they lose to in the deciding match..?

+ Show Spoiler [By which I mean...] +
Player A 2-0 Player B <- First Match
Player A Loses Winner's Match
Player B Wins Loser's Match
Player A 1-2 Player B <- Deciding Match

3-2 to Player A in total, but Player B goes through!


If in football a round-robin format that uses goal-difference and goals scored (equivalent to map-score) before looking at games between the tied teams is good enough for the World Cup, then it's good enough for DreamHack.

Map score is so fucking irrelevant though. The GSL format is fair because it's a bracket. Lose 2 series and you're out, it's that simple. To get out of the group you still have to be the better player, you still gotta beat 2 opponents. In this format, you can get kicked out of the group through results that you have no chance to influence. You can beat the top 2 players, as Impact did and then lose anyway because of mapscore in other series.

In the sequence of events I just gave, the two players are 1-1 in series score if you're considering map-score to be irrelevant (which is isn't because maps themselves can play a big part in how series play out but whatever). You can't possibly claim that it is wholly fair for the player with more maps won to go out just because they happened to lose the second series instead of the first series. The two players are literally tied in series won vs. each other. If you can't see that the GSL format also has flaws then whatever. I just take it for what it is: Ultimately if you win all your games then you won't have anything to be salty about and that's what all competitive people should be striving to do instead of bitching about the fucking format.


Frankly I don't give a shit about what your opinion is on the format. You're not paying for the damn flights, your emotional and financial investment in the formats is zero.
CommentatorHost of SHOUTcraft Clan Wars- http://www.mlg.tv/shoutcraft
DJHelium
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden13480 Posts
November 27 2014 21:50 GMT
#2170
TB did you ever discuss this on some talkshow with a tournament organizer? I'm not sure who does SC2 for DH right now, Adebisi? And if you did, you remember which one/episode? Would love to watch.
#1 player in the world atm: J-god | Follow me on twitter! @DJHelium
stuchiu
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
November 27 2014 21:50 GMT
#2171
On November 28 2014 06:47 KingofdaHipHop wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2014 06:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So I think we can determine from this and Blizzcon is that Zerg is crazy UP and Life is stupidly good.

It's like stuchiu says, there's always that one zerg asshole that does well and stops us from getting buffed.


Started with Fruitdealer, went to Nestea, 1 month of Leenock, went to DRG (BL/infestor era) then Life then Soulkey then soO, now back to Life.
Moderator
Lorning *
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Belgica34432 Posts
November 27 2014 21:51 GMT
#2172
VODs are up
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=23342452

Missing MC vs StarDust game 1. Don't think anyone casted that
Community News
TL+ Member
RaFox17
Profile Joined May 2013
Finland4581 Posts
November 27 2014 21:51 GMT
#2173
On November 28 2014 06:49 Swisslink wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2014 06:43 TotalBiscuit wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:42 Swisslink wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:41 TotalBiscuit wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:40 Swisslink wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:39 stuchiu wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:38 BlackCompany wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:37 Boucot wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:36 BlackCompany wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:34 Aeromi wrote:
https://twitter.com/ShortID/status/538083382337748992


I think he shows 0-4
Thats the score he gets in the next bo3s
+ Show Spoiler +
just kidding

There are no next bo3s. ONLY BO5 NOW ! (And Bo7 for the final)


What? Did dreamhack really stop their bo3s till finals stuff?
cant believe i missed that :o


only for the final tournament in the circuit (i.e. this one)


But last year everything beside the losers- and the grandfinale were Bo3, wasn't it?


There was no losers finals, Dreamhack does RO16 onwards single elim bo3 with bo5 finals. It's absolutely terrible. It's probably why Dreamhack has such weird finalists, it's down to a lot of bracket luck most of the time.


http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_DreamHack_Open/Winter

It's only in DH Winters - the other Dreamhack tournaments got even weirder formats :-P


Yeah we're not talkin about winter we're talking about all the other events leading up to it.

And that's the end of the group, everyone with 2-2 series score. Headsmashingly stupid format, look at those results.


Well, yeah, the other Dreamhack Tournaments are pretty fucked up. Mainly because it's Bo3 all the way, which is just... stupid, imo

And it's really unfortunate for Impact... Hoped for at least one of those 2 Zerg to advance.

Show nested quote +
On November 28 2014 06:44 RaFox17 wrote:
Sad for Snute. Luckily 2 zergs are still in. Life and JD fighting!


... Life shines as soon as every other Zerg screws up.

There can only be one zerg doing well in any given tournament. The chosen one that the old prophecies speak of.
TotalBiscuit
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United Kingdom5437 Posts
November 27 2014 21:51 GMT
#2174
On November 28 2014 06:49 mooncifer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2014 06:26 KingofdaHipHop wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:25 REyeM wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Hopefully this junk format is never used again.

Mapscore rather than head to head, 5 man round-robin groups with tie-breakers. Christ it's like 2010 all over again. Beat the top 2 players and lose the group anyway? Seems legit.


What is with this guy?

This guy paid for a player's flight so that he could compete and show some results. I don't necessarily share the same anger at the format but I very much understand TB's anger.


So it's not DreamHack pays players' flights and hotels? Oh…I thought they do it as IEM does, since all these players are invited.


Hell no. Dreamhack never pays for any flights and hotels. For players outside of Europe Dreamhack is a gigantic risk. The prizepool for main events outside of the finals is low, the format is massively prone to bracket-screwing, the flight cost is high. If flights were compensated it'd be a different matter entirely, but they're not.
CommentatorHost of SHOUTcraft Clan Wars- http://www.mlg.tv/shoutcraft
Lorning *
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Belgica34432 Posts
November 27 2014 21:51 GMT
#2175
On November 28 2014 06:50 stuchiu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2014 06:47 KingofdaHipHop wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So I think we can determine from this and Blizzcon is that Zerg is crazy UP and Life is stupidly good.

It's like stuchiu says, there's always that one zerg asshole that does well and stops us from getting buffed.


Started with Fruitdealer, went to Nestea, 1 month of Leenock, went to DRG (BL/infestor era) then Life then Soulkey then soO, now back to Life.

And next year to TerrOr

#TheRiseOfTerrOr
Community News
TL+ Member
plotspot
Profile Joined October 2014
800 Posts
November 27 2014 21:51 GMT
#2176
I'd also prefer having tiebreaker games to settle things fairly and squarely, but it's also a matter of time that this cannot be always done. With a 5x 2:2 tiebreaker we could sit here another 2 hours. It's a compromise like always, really pity for Snute and Impact though, especially for Snute (I personally feel) after having fought his way back.
KingofdaHipHop
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
United States25602 Posts
November 27 2014 21:51 GMT
#2177
On November 28 2014 06:51 Lorning wrote:
VODs are up
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=23342452

Missing MC vs StarDust game 1. Don't think anyone casted that

give this man a medal.
Rain | herO | sOs | Dear | Neeb | ByuN | INnoVation | Dream | ForGG | Maru | ByuL | Golden | Solar | Soulkey | Scarlett!!!
Dingodile
Profile Joined December 2011
4139 Posts
November 27 2014 21:51 GMT
#2178
12/20 players scored 2-2, 8/12 advanced!
Grubby | ToD | Moon | Lyn | Sky
Packawana
Profile Joined August 2011
United States1081 Posts
November 27 2014 21:51 GMT
#2179
On November 28 2014 06:50 stuchiu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2014 06:47 KingofdaHipHop wrote:
On November 28 2014 06:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So I think we can determine from this and Blizzcon is that Zerg is crazy UP and Life is stupidly good.

It's like stuchiu says, there's always that one zerg asshole that does well and stops us from getting buffed.


Started with Fruitdealer, went to Nestea, 1 month of Leenock, went to DRG (BL/infestor era) then Life then Soulkey then soO, now back to Life.



Now its more Soulkey + Life.
"May all your dreaming fill the empty sky."
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24422 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-27 21:53:27
November 27 2014 21:52 GMT
#2180
You can go 3-2 in maps against a player in GSL format (1-1 in series) and still see them advance over you. Every format has its advantages and issues. The issue here is very clear. The upside of this format is that everybody plays everybody.

Different people will prefer different formats. I for one find it nice and refreshing to not have the same format at every tournament.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
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