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On July 17 2014 12:35 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
Sweet another tvz. Anyone notice a lot of tvz lately? Bomber and Polt have faced off against a horde of zerg lately.
Protoss did surprisingly poorly in both the European and American qualifiers. Although many of them are already seeded from last season.
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Kelazhur had no medivacs... he got rolled.
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On July 17 2014 12:38 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2014 12:34 Exarl25 wrote:On July 17 2014 12:31 chipmonklord17 wrote:On July 17 2014 12:25 Exarl25 wrote:On July 17 2014 12:22 chipmonklord17 wrote:On July 17 2014 12:14 Exarl25 wrote:On July 17 2014 12:10 Little-Chimp wrote:
Like or dislike Avilo (I don't really like him), you can't fault him for trying to play for a draw in such an important tournament. End of story. If he was legitimately just looking for a draw then he could have lifted to the dead air long, long before he did and everything would have been resolved. He forced the Zerg to waste time killing off his ground army that meant nothing. Then when he realizes there isn't enough space unless he spam clicks on one spot, something that is impossible to maintain, a draw is no longer viable and he should GG. But he sticks in. Even when he loses all his units to fungals, he pretends he still has some and prolongs things even longer. He wasn't just trying to draw. He was intentionally being an obnoxious timewaster and screwing up the tournament as much as he possibly could. If players are going to pull that shit then tournaments need to put in rules that will let them DQ in that situation. Why would he willingly put himself in a position where if he's wrong, he instantly loses. If he's unsure that floating to the bottom will mean infestors can't reach him, which he wasn't, it would be completely stupid to try until he absolutely had to. If you lift your buildings and float away and then are wrong, you get fungaled and you die and lose your chance at WCS. Meanwhile if he waits until the last second he makes sure his opponent won't throw the game resulting in a win, or "secure" his tie if he's in fact correct that he can't be fungaled. There are plenty of reasons to find avilo a BM prick. This game wasn't one of them If his strategy was to wait for his opponent to fuck up and take a miracle win then why was he messaging admins asking for a draw? He knew a draw was the only thing left, he had completely stopped talking about winning as a realistic possibility. Fly to the corner, see if it really is a draw or not, then GG or wait it out accordingly. He didn't know a draw was the only thing left. The entire game he kept mentioning how it was soon going to be the "moment of truth" to see if he could be fungaled or not. He had NO idea he was drawing out the game for nothing. His strategy was to wait out a game he believed he could not have lost. Once again if this map were habitation station this would have been a tie. He didn't know. The key here is that until the last 15 minutes he believed that he could at WORST draw where as if he waited confirming it he could potentially get a win if his opponent messed up. Why on earth would he throw away that potential when he truly didn't know he could be hit from that spot? Either that or he's a ridiculously good faker for no benefit Did you not read what I said? If his strategy was as you said then why did he keep messaging the admin asking for a draw? He knew he had absolutely no chance of winning. A draw was the best he could hope for, not the worst. It seems like you didn't read this carefully enough. He BELIEVED a draw was the worst he could hope for which is why he kept doing it. He most certainly could have won by his opponent not being patient enough, where in any given situation he BELIEVED he could just float away and make it a draw. He messaged the admins because he believed he could not be beat in the end. When you believe losing is impossible a draw is the worst you can get. As the only other option is a win. We only know a draw was his best case because by the end of the game we knew he in fact could be fungaled
I don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand. If he believed that he could still get a win then it makes no sense to message admins and ask for a draw. He was not speaking at all about a possibility of a win for a very, very long time, just that he could draw. With a draw being his only goal, he could just lift and force it quickly, exactly the same outcome as if the admin had granted his request.
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To be honest the "right call" should have been when avilo first messaged the admin about the situation they should have checked the map in a separate game and told him or not. If he is told he can actually lose that game ends much quicker
On July 17 2014 12:44 Exarl25 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2014 12:38 chipmonklord17 wrote:On July 17 2014 12:34 Exarl25 wrote:On July 17 2014 12:31 chipmonklord17 wrote:On July 17 2014 12:25 Exarl25 wrote:On July 17 2014 12:22 chipmonklord17 wrote:On July 17 2014 12:14 Exarl25 wrote:On July 17 2014 12:10 Little-Chimp wrote:
Like or dislike Avilo (I don't really like him), you can't fault him for trying to play for a draw in such an important tournament. End of story. If he was legitimately just looking for a draw then he could have lifted to the dead air long, long before he did and everything would have been resolved. He forced the Zerg to waste time killing off his ground army that meant nothing. Then when he realizes there isn't enough space unless he spam clicks on one spot, something that is impossible to maintain, a draw is no longer viable and he should GG. But he sticks in. Even when he loses all his units to fungals, he pretends he still has some and prolongs things even longer. He wasn't just trying to draw. He was intentionally being an obnoxious timewaster and screwing up the tournament as much as he possibly could. If players are going to pull that shit then tournaments need to put in rules that will let them DQ in that situation. Why would he willingly put himself in a position where if he's wrong, he instantly loses. If he's unsure that floating to the bottom will mean infestors can't reach him, which he wasn't, it would be completely stupid to try until he absolutely had to. If you lift your buildings and float away and then are wrong, you get fungaled and you die and lose your chance at WCS. Meanwhile if he waits until the last second he makes sure his opponent won't throw the game resulting in a win, or "secure" his tie if he's in fact correct that he can't be fungaled. There are plenty of reasons to find avilo a BM prick. This game wasn't one of them If his strategy was to wait for his opponent to fuck up and take a miracle win then why was he messaging admins asking for a draw? He knew a draw was the only thing left, he had completely stopped talking about winning as a realistic possibility. Fly to the corner, see if it really is a draw or not, then GG or wait it out accordingly. He didn't know a draw was the only thing left. The entire game he kept mentioning how it was soon going to be the "moment of truth" to see if he could be fungaled or not. He had NO idea he was drawing out the game for nothing. His strategy was to wait out a game he believed he could not have lost. Once again if this map were habitation station this would have been a tie. He didn't know. The key here is that until the last 15 minutes he believed that he could at WORST draw where as if he waited confirming it he could potentially get a win if his opponent messed up. Why on earth would he throw away that potential when he truly didn't know he could be hit from that spot? Either that or he's a ridiculously good faker for no benefit Did you not read what I said? If his strategy was as you said then why did he keep messaging the admin asking for a draw? He knew he had absolutely no chance of winning. A draw was the best he could hope for, not the worst. It seems like you didn't read this carefully enough. He BELIEVED a draw was the worst he could hope for which is why he kept doing it. He most certainly could have won by his opponent not being patient enough, where in any given situation he BELIEVED he could just float away and make it a draw. He messaged the admins because he believed he could not be beat in the end. When you believe losing is impossible a draw is the worst you can get. As the only other option is a win. We only know a draw was his best case because by the end of the game we knew he in fact could be fungaled I don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand. If he believed that he could still get a win then it makes no sense to message admins and ask for a draw. He was not speaking at all about a possibility of a win for a very, very long time, just that he could draw. With a draw being his only goal, he could just lift and force it quickly, exactly the same outcome as if the admin had granted his request.
He messaged the admin because he believed his two real options were draw and win with draw being the more likely option. He was willing to concede the small chance he (believed he) had of winning to end the game and not to further delay the qualifiers.
A draw wasn't his only goal. A draw was his most likely goal, so sitting at the top of the ramp was his smartest decision as one of two things would happen (again in his mind these weren't the only options in reality)
1) His opponent would do something stupid and Avilo would secure the win
2) His opponent could do whatever the hell they wanted and at any time when the ramp was no longer holdable he could float away and wait forever until his opponent called the draw he had been asking for
He wouldn't immediately float because option 1 still existed and would instantly disappear if he floated away to try option 2 any faster than he needed to and those were the only two options in his mind
People are only mad because he was wrong in the end.
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On July 17 2014 12:34 TotalBiscuit wrote:
So again, when did Balloon get a US visa? Last season he was playing in the Wildcard qualifier, now he can play in the regional?
Actually he is going to a school in Buffalo.
I'm from Toronto, I think I might go drive up there to meet him.
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On July 17 2014 12:45 chipmonklord17 wrote:To be honest the "right call" should have been when avilo first messaged the admin about the situation they should have checked the map in a separate game and told him or not. If he is told he can actually lose that game ends much quicker Show nested quote +On July 17 2014 12:44 Exarl25 wrote:On July 17 2014 12:38 chipmonklord17 wrote:On July 17 2014 12:34 Exarl25 wrote:On July 17 2014 12:31 chipmonklord17 wrote:On July 17 2014 12:25 Exarl25 wrote:On July 17 2014 12:22 chipmonklord17 wrote:On July 17 2014 12:14 Exarl25 wrote:On July 17 2014 12:10 Little-Chimp wrote:
Like or dislike Avilo (I don't really like him), you can't fault him for trying to play for a draw in such an important tournament. End of story. If he was legitimately just looking for a draw then he could have lifted to the dead air long, long before he did and everything would have been resolved. He forced the Zerg to waste time killing off his ground army that meant nothing. Then when he realizes there isn't enough space unless he spam clicks on one spot, something that is impossible to maintain, a draw is no longer viable and he should GG. But he sticks in. Even when he loses all his units to fungals, he pretends he still has some and prolongs things even longer. He wasn't just trying to draw. He was intentionally being an obnoxious timewaster and screwing up the tournament as much as he possibly could. If players are going to pull that shit then tournaments need to put in rules that will let them DQ in that situation. Why would he willingly put himself in a position where if he's wrong, he instantly loses. If he's unsure that floating to the bottom will mean infestors can't reach him, which he wasn't, it would be completely stupid to try until he absolutely had to. If you lift your buildings and float away and then are wrong, you get fungaled and you die and lose your chance at WCS. Meanwhile if he waits until the last second he makes sure his opponent won't throw the game resulting in a win, or "secure" his tie if he's in fact correct that he can't be fungaled. There are plenty of reasons to find avilo a BM prick. This game wasn't one of them If his strategy was to wait for his opponent to fuck up and take a miracle win then why was he messaging admins asking for a draw? He knew a draw was the only thing left, he had completely stopped talking about winning as a realistic possibility. Fly to the corner, see if it really is a draw or not, then GG or wait it out accordingly. He didn't know a draw was the only thing left. The entire game he kept mentioning how it was soon going to be the "moment of truth" to see if he could be fungaled or not. He had NO idea he was drawing out the game for nothing. His strategy was to wait out a game he believed he could not have lost. Once again if this map were habitation station this would have been a tie. He didn't know. The key here is that until the last 15 minutes he believed that he could at WORST draw where as if he waited confirming it he could potentially get a win if his opponent messed up. Why on earth would he throw away that potential when he truly didn't know he could be hit from that spot? Either that or he's a ridiculously good faker for no benefit Did you not read what I said? If his strategy was as you said then why did he keep messaging the admin asking for a draw? He knew he had absolutely no chance of winning. A draw was the best he could hope for, not the worst. It seems like you didn't read this carefully enough. He BELIEVED a draw was the worst he could hope for which is why he kept doing it. He most certainly could have won by his opponent not being patient enough, where in any given situation he BELIEVED he could just float away and make it a draw. He messaged the admins because he believed he could not be beat in the end. When you believe losing is impossible a draw is the worst you can get. As the only other option is a win. We only know a draw was his best case because by the end of the game we knew he in fact could be fungaled I don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand. If he believed that he could still get a win then it makes no sense to message admins and ask for a draw. He was not speaking at all about a possibility of a win for a very, very long time, just that he could draw. With a draw being his only goal, he could just lift and force it quickly, exactly the same outcome as if the admin had granted his request. He messaged the admin because he believed his two real options were draw and win with draw being the more likely option. He was willing to concede the small chance he (believed he) had of winning to end the game and not to further delay the qualifiers. A draw wasn't his only goal. A draw was his most likely goal, so sitting at the top of the ramp was his smartest decision as one of two things would happen (again in his mind these weren't the only options in reality) 1) His opponent would do something stupid and Avilo would secure the win 2) His opponent could do whatever the hell they wanted and at any time when the ramp was no longer holdable he could float away and wait forever until his opponent called the draw he had been asking for He wouldn't immediately float because option 1 still existed and would instantly disappear if he floated away to try option 2 any faster than he needed to and those were the only two options in his mind People are only mad because he was wrong in the end.
I don't even... The mental gymnastics you are going through here. You are arguing two contradictory points at the same time. If he was satisfied with a draw (which he must have been as he was appealing to the admins for one), and he believed he could get a draw (as you claim), then he could just float over and fucking take the draw.
But you are arguing that he was willing to concede his chance to win and take the draw in order to not further delay the tournament, and that he was unwilling to force a draw while he still had a chance to win if his opponent fucked up. Am I being trolled here, or do you just type things out without thinking about them?
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Oh god this is gunna be ugly.
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On July 17 2014 12:45 chipmonklord17 wrote:
People are only mad because he was wrong in the end.
No, people are only mad because it is avilo. I don't recall people blaming Mana or Firecake personally for their multi-hour games.
avilo had good reason to not immediately go to the dead space and he had good reason to believe a draw was likely. People should understand they are free to continue hating avilo while admitting these facts.
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On July 17 2014 12:52 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2014 12:34 TotalBiscuit wrote:
So again, when did Balloon get a US visa? Last season he was playing in the Wildcard qualifier, now he can play in the regional? Actually he is going to a school in Buffalo. I'm from Toronto, I think I might go drive up there to meet him.
Source? I live in Toronto too and am going to Buffalo for shopping soon.
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Bails has been waiting an extra like 2+ hours for this final game lmao
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They should also give the audience qualification :D.
WCS AM Challenger is not prepared for my Diamond level Korean 4-Gate skills.
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On July 17 2014 13:01 Exarl25 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2014 12:45 chipmonklord17 wrote:To be honest the "right call" should have been when avilo first messaged the admin about the situation they should have checked the map in a separate game and told him or not. If he is told he can actually lose that game ends much quicker On July 17 2014 12:44 Exarl25 wrote:On July 17 2014 12:38 chipmonklord17 wrote:On July 17 2014 12:34 Exarl25 wrote:On July 17 2014 12:31 chipmonklord17 wrote:On July 17 2014 12:25 Exarl25 wrote:On July 17 2014 12:22 chipmonklord17 wrote:On July 17 2014 12:14 Exarl25 wrote:On July 17 2014 12:10 Little-Chimp wrote:
Like or dislike Avilo (I don't really like him), you can't fault him for trying to play for a draw in such an important tournament. End of story. If he was legitimately just looking for a draw then he could have lifted to the dead air long, long before he did and everything would have been resolved. He forced the Zerg to waste time killing off his ground army that meant nothing. Then when he realizes there isn't enough space unless he spam clicks on one spot, something that is impossible to maintain, a draw is no longer viable and he should GG. But he sticks in. Even when he loses all his units to fungals, he pretends he still has some and prolongs things even longer. He wasn't just trying to draw. He was intentionally being an obnoxious timewaster and screwing up the tournament as much as he possibly could. If players are going to pull that shit then tournaments need to put in rules that will let them DQ in that situation. Why would he willingly put himself in a position where if he's wrong, he instantly loses. If he's unsure that floating to the bottom will mean infestors can't reach him, which he wasn't, it would be completely stupid to try until he absolutely had to. If you lift your buildings and float away and then are wrong, you get fungaled and you die and lose your chance at WCS. Meanwhile if he waits until the last second he makes sure his opponent won't throw the game resulting in a win, or "secure" his tie if he's in fact correct that he can't be fungaled. There are plenty of reasons to find avilo a BM prick. This game wasn't one of them If his strategy was to wait for his opponent to fuck up and take a miracle win then why was he messaging admins asking for a draw? He knew a draw was the only thing left, he had completely stopped talking about winning as a realistic possibility. Fly to the corner, see if it really is a draw or not, then GG or wait it out accordingly. He didn't know a draw was the only thing left. The entire game he kept mentioning how it was soon going to be the "moment of truth" to see if he could be fungaled or not. He had NO idea he was drawing out the game for nothing. His strategy was to wait out a game he believed he could not have lost. Once again if this map were habitation station this would have been a tie. He didn't know. The key here is that until the last 15 minutes he believed that he could at WORST draw where as if he waited confirming it he could potentially get a win if his opponent messed up. Why on earth would he throw away that potential when he truly didn't know he could be hit from that spot? Either that or he's a ridiculously good faker for no benefit Did you not read what I said? If his strategy was as you said then why did he keep messaging the admin asking for a draw? He knew he had absolutely no chance of winning. A draw was the best he could hope for, not the worst. It seems like you didn't read this carefully enough. He BELIEVED a draw was the worst he could hope for which is why he kept doing it. He most certainly could have won by his opponent not being patient enough, where in any given situation he BELIEVED he could just float away and make it a draw. He messaged the admins because he believed he could not be beat in the end. When you believe losing is impossible a draw is the worst you can get. As the only other option is a win. We only know a draw was his best case because by the end of the game we knew he in fact could be fungaled I don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand. If he believed that he could still get a win then it makes no sense to message admins and ask for a draw. He was not speaking at all about a possibility of a win for a very, very long time, just that he could draw. With a draw being his only goal, he could just lift and force it quickly, exactly the same outcome as if the admin had granted his request. He messaged the admin because he believed his two real options were draw and win with draw being the more likely option. He was willing to concede the small chance he (believed he) had of winning to end the game and not to further delay the qualifiers. A draw wasn't his only goal. A draw was his most likely goal, so sitting at the top of the ramp was his smartest decision as one of two things would happen (again in his mind these weren't the only options in reality) 1) His opponent would do something stupid and Avilo would secure the win 2) His opponent could do whatever the hell they wanted and at any time when the ramp was no longer holdable he could float away and wait forever until his opponent called the draw he had been asking for He wouldn't immediately float because option 1 still existed and would instantly disappear if he floated away to try option 2 any faster than he needed to and those were the only two options in his mind People are only mad because he was wrong in the end. I don't even... The mental gymnastics you are going through here. You are arguing two contradictory points at the same time. If he was satisfied with a draw (which he must have been as he was appealing to the admins for one), and he believed he could get a draw (as you claim), then he could just float over and fucking take the draw. But you are arguing that he was willing to concede his chance to win and take the draw in order to not further delay the tournament, and that he was unwilling to force a draw while he still had a chance to win if his opponent fucked up. Am I being trolled here, or do you just type things out without thinking about them?
There is nothing contradictory here. I'll try explaining it again in as much detail as possible, as maybe I'm skipping a few steps in thought process that I'm assuming you followed.
First off we can all agree win > draw > loss
Avilo believed the game had 2 options
1) His opponent (or himself really so I guess 3 but for the sake of this conversation it doesnt matter) would eventually mess up their army control and he would be able to win.
2) Outside of him messing up with his army he could choose to float his buildings to the spot he eventually did, and that would end the game in a draw.
Avilo believes he can't lose meaning his only options from above are win > draw. Calling for a draw is his best option in this situation because he concedes the option to win while also giving himself a second chance should he be wrong and that he could actually lose. Calling a draw and getting his opponent to agree to it won't further delay the tournament as they just remap and continue.
Now the part about him being unwilling to force the draw. Whenever you make a decision do you not always think about the possibility of if you are wrong? That principle is what is at work here. He was unwilling to force the draw before he absolutely had to as he believed he could never lose the game. However he knew and mentioned on stream (by way of saying "moment of truth" multiple times) that there was a chance he was wrong. This checks out with what I said earlier, calling a tie gives him a second chance should he be wrong. In that specific situation there was no way to check without actually floating the remainder of his units and buildings to that spot and hoping for the best. If he was incorrect in his initial assessment of being unable to lose the game is over then and there. This is why he was unwilling to try and FORCE the tie before he had to. Because as long as he wasn't in a situation where he needed to find out, there was always a chance his opponent could mess up and he could win.
He was willing to not delay the tournament any further but not at the cost of instantly ending his chance in the tournament. He was a competitor trying to compete. Both players made the calls they felt were best, and in hindsight, Avilo's calls were the wrong ones.
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Guys, Avilo was eliminated three rounds ago. It's over, get over it XD
EDIT: Also, BAILS! :D
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One more Bails! No more Zergs please :D
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On July 17 2014 13:13 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2014 12:45 chipmonklord17 wrote:
People are only mad because he was wrong in the end. No, people are only mad because it is avilo. I don't recall people blaming Mana or Firecake personally for their multi-hour games. avilo had good reason to not immediately go to the dead space and he had good reason to believe a draw was likely. People should understand they are free to continue hating avilo while admitting these facts.
What in the actual fuck? People weren't mad at Firecake? THEY HATED HIM. I mean they already hated him enough prior to that because he's known for being pretty BM on ladder, but the entire chat was spamming for 2 hours "END THIS", Reddit was covered in insults for Firecake.
How you can keep going on defending him is mindblowing. I knew it would only be a matter of time before Avilo incriminated himself again and showed once more what we all knew, that he doesn't respect anybody and has an awful attitude for a competitive game. Some people will go on denying it though, cognitive dissonance is one hell of a drug.
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LOL what were those forcefields!
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That was a really good fight for Bails. Wow.
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That went a lot better than I could have imagined.
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Dark Templar, Khaldor. Though if High Templar were cloaked I would be ecstatic.
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4326
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EPT
