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On June 02 2014 07:15 -y0shi- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 07:12 vjcamarena wrote:
I liked this game. I know people will complain about swarm hosts, but honestly, my understanding is First defeated himself by stopping the harass. He was tearing Snute apart, and decided to put all his eggs in the Air basket.
Snute played a good "mech" game. He didn't just turtle.
That said:
Snute beats Kas, Welmu, Yoda, Jjakji, MC, First.
HO-LEE SHEET. Insane! Not trying to pick a fight but how would he harass anymore? Snute had no bases left to harass and every time first tried to attack into the turtle base he lost units for free.
The one base that kept Snute in this game, when First was harassing and had several collosus, wasn't the turtel Golg base, but the top right. The gold was being battered by collosus from the lowground and didn't actually mine for a very long time, plus he lost the mid-right base several times.
If First was able to kill top left, he wins, as easy as that.
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On June 02 2014 07:17 Green_25 wrote:
Snute so underrated. He just wins quietly. Will eventually be the most successful foreign starcraft player IMO.
"So underrated"? Isn't he widely considered the best foreigner right now?
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On June 02 2014 07:19 -y0shi- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 07:13 Cynry wrote:On June 02 2014 07:09 -y0shi- wrote:On June 02 2014 07:05 sharkie wrote:On June 02 2014 07:03 -y0shi- wrote:This makes me so angry  First is up bases, bank, army, everything but he cant do shit do do damage :/ rofl, protoss whining Snute was ahead much of the game then First came with super lasers and gained a lead and now Snute got the lead back Snute was miles ahead, then couldnt keep up with the constant attacks til the game was basically over, first was up like 3 bases and 5000/2500 vs no resources/no mining. Then snute sat on his one base and waited. Maybe its a protoss perspective thing, idk, but this game pissed me off like nothing since hero vs leenock on antiga. Wouldnt mind someone explaining why im wrong though.. You are wrong thinking Snute "waited". Of course he defended his only base, he had no alternative. But still, it takes some skills to do that againt such a killer composition from First. Transfusing, getting the yank timings right not to waste them, also has to match the locust waves. Sure, from your POV, maybe it's just "waiting", but not every zerg can "wait" that well. I guess I can see that, and obviously snute did the "right" thing. What Im wondering is what First can do to break that, unless snute messes up. On a more positive note, I havent been this emotioanlly invested in a game of sc2 in a long time :D
Oracle: revelation and snipe everything to death with tempests
That's how most of these games go. First had abysmal oracle control
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On June 02 2014 07:14 Tontsa wrote:
Snute really played well to win this but i really dislike the SH style. Snute hasn't even thought about attacking this whole game. Snute just defended until the other player mined out. This isn't really what I enjoy in watching SC.I would have hoped he would have used his early game advantage to over run first with roach/hydra or something,
Overall I dislike the mentality of a player just defending with free units untill the other player gets frustarated and makes a mistake becouse of it. I would hope players would try to outplay the other with a more aggresive style.
Watch MC vs. Snute on Frost. Snute really can be aggressive, he usually plays really good aggressive Swarm Host pushes, but he played against First 6 games today, and he noticed that he is very harass-oriented player with ton of Zealot drops and you can't be aggressive with Swarm Hosts against that. He had problems dealing with that even when he played as defensively as possible, I think that Snute really played the best he could and I am pretty sure that he would've lost the game if he tried to be aggressive.
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OMG, impressive run by Snute! GG! Best foreigner (for now, at least) ou SC2 scene.
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On June 02 2014 07:08 Ufnal wrote:
If I read one more SH-whine post... Seriously, this is a good, exciting game, maybe long but full of emotions and back-and-forth. But you people just keep whining and whining and it makes me so angry that I think I'll have to stop reading TL every time a SH pops out, because it made me so angry that my enjoyment went out the window. Thanks a lot, folks. Have a nice whining.
I would say it could’ve been exciting and absolutely epic game because Snute and First are both awesome players. Instead we saw a mediocre game. I think that SH just takes a lot of skill out of the game. When one player can trade for free something is not right. I’m not saying that it’s OP because I don’t know that, but as a spectator I’m just disappointed.
Anyway, gratz to Snute because he played like a beast today!
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Was there vods? I mean, of the MMA games of course
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Those games ware entertaining, congratz to Snute, however, this thread is even more fun :D .
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On June 02 2014 07:20 WTCO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 07:17 Green_25 wrote:
Snute so underrated. He just wins quietly. Will eventually be the most successful foreign starcraft player IMO. "So underrated"? Isn't he widely considered the best foreigner right now?
I mean in general. He's never received the hype Stephano, Naniwa, or Scarlett got. Mostly due to his personality. Most Korean foreigner for sure.
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On June 02 2014 07:19 -y0shi- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 07:13 Cynry wrote:On June 02 2014 07:09 -y0shi- wrote:On June 02 2014 07:05 sharkie wrote:On June 02 2014 07:03 -y0shi- wrote:This makes me so angry First is up bases, bank, army, everything but he cant do shit do do damage :/ rofl, protoss whining Snute was ahead much of the game then First came with super lasers and gained a lead and now Snute got the lead back Snute was miles ahead, then couldnt keep up with the constant attacks til the game was basically over, first was up like 3 bases and 5000/2500 vs no resources/no mining. Then snute sat on his one base and waited. Maybe its a protoss perspective thing, idk, but this game pissed me off like nothing since hero vs leenock on antiga. Wouldnt mind someone explaining why im wrong though.. You are wrong thinking Snute "waited". Of course he defended his only base, he had no alternative. But still, it takes some skills to do that againt such a killer composition from First. Transfusing, getting the yank timings right not to waste them, also has to match the locust waves. Sure, from your POV, maybe it's just "waiting", but not every zerg can "wait" that well. I guess I can see that, and obviously snute did the "right" thing. What Im wondering is what First can do to break that, unless snute messes up. On a more positive note, I havent been this emotioanlly invested in a game of sc2 in a long time :D
Hard to tell. First got ahead with great harass/army control, he had a great eco, he switched to voids and it went downhill from here. Lots of wasteful attacks, some drops that did nothing but cost him a lot of minerals. Maybe he got a bit cocky. His voids didn't do much in the end, he couldn't engage with them. Maybe going straight for tempests to pick stuff off before Snute could get back on his feet would have won. Maybe keeping the same comp as he had when ahead would have worked too. I really feel the voids actually killed him, but it's hard to remember a 1h game in details...
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On June 02 2014 07:17 D-light wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 07:13 Yonnua wrote:
It's particularly disappointing from Snute who usually plays such exciting games. Idunno. All the roach wars in zvz and swarmhosts in pvz aren't the most exciting games. But hey that's just me.
Exactly. Compared to great muta games, baneling drops and sick ling control that we used to see. I much preferred his old style.
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Snute such a beast jeez! So proud of him :D
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Congrats to Snute! Definitely the best foreigner at the moment and really deserves to go to Shenzhen.
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On June 02 2014 07:41 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 07:17 D-light wrote:On June 02 2014 07:13 Yonnua wrote:
It's particularly disappointing from Snute who usually plays such exciting games. Idunno. All the roach wars in zvz and swarmhosts in pvz aren't the most exciting games. But hey that's just me. Exactly. Compared to great muta games, baneling drops and sick ling control that we used to see. I much preferred his old style.
ZvZ is definitely way more interesting now than back in the muta v muta days. That shit sucked so hard to watch
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On June 02 2014 07:55 Green_25 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 07:41 Yonnua wrote:On June 02 2014 07:17 D-light wrote:On June 02 2014 07:13 Yonnua wrote:
It's particularly disappointing from Snute who usually plays such exciting games. Idunno. All the roach wars in zvz and swarmhosts in pvz aren't the most exciting games. But hey that's just me. Exactly. Compared to great muta games, baneling drops and sick ling control that we used to see. I much preferred his old style. ZvZ is definitely way more interesting now than back in the muta v muta days. That shit sucked so hard to watch
Please say you are joking. :< Roach vs roach are so repetitive and boring. :/
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Great to see MMA qualify. He can grab some much needed WCS points after falling out this season's WCS.
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What a ridiculous run by Snute. Looking forward to his WCS run to the finals. 
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United States370 Posts
The one thing that really confused me in this game was the period where Snute had a bank of about 5k/5k and had room to make a lot of units, all while First's zealot and stalker harassment was doing a lot of damage (taking down hive and at least one other base if I recall). This was right before he got both his spires destroyed which were, according to the casters, researching 3/3.
It seemed like this was the time to go for the big muta switch and I thought that's what he'd been preparing for with the twin upgrades. Ideally he'd want the 3/3 upgrades but 2/2 isn't bad. I wasn't sure why he hesitated to make this switch since his swarmhosts were not defending the harassment well. One consideration was that First was on a lot of bases and his Protoss Doom Army might mow down Snute's bases quicker than a muta pack could take down First's, and the base trade might favor First. Then First had a lot of stargates up and it was a moot issue.
So maybe Snute never planned to muta switch and the twin upgrades were just to make his corruptors more sturdy in the SH/Viper/Corruptor composition, but it looked like he was preparing for a muta switch that he never made.
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On June 02 2014 23:21 LordYama wrote:
The one thing that really confused me in this game was the period where Snute had a bank of about 5k/5k and had room to make a lot of units, all while First's zealot and stalker harassment was doing a lot of damage (taking down hive and at least one other base if I recall). This was right before he got both his spires destroyed which were, according to the casters, researching 3/3.
It seemed like this was the time to go for the big muta switch and I thought that's what he'd been preparing for with the twin upgrades. Ideally he'd want the 3/3 upgrades but 2/2 isn't bad. I wasn't sure why he hesitated to make this switch since his swarmhosts were not defending the harassment well. One consideration was that First was on a lot of bases and his Protoss Doom Army might mow down Snute's bases quicker than a muta pack could take down First's, and the base trade might favor First. Then First had a lot of stargates up and it was a moot issue.
So maybe Snute never planned to muta switch and the twin upgrades were just to make his corruptors more sturdy in the SH/Viper/Corruptor composition, but it looked like he was preparing for a muta switch that he never made.
i thought of that too, and i figured it was possible that he didn't realize the double spire was dead, or maybe forgot to remake it? lots of pressure. it sure didn't seem to make much sense to go down to 130 supply with 5k/5k and then make swarm hosts... or maybe he was afraid first would have enough time and money to hide a bunch of stargates and make phoenix while base trading?
anyway, i LOVE kaelaris and apollo, but they called this series abysmally, terrible gamecalling from start to finish. i'm sure they were tired, but in games 1 and 3 particularly they were clueless and lost. g1 first had a killing position up 4 bases to 3 with a better army but waffled around, let snute build an army and almost went full tod by being too passive, meanwhile apollo was creaming himself over how insanely well first was playing? he had bad army control and unnecessarily lost quite a few units while he had a significantly better standing force. it was a solid meta build, but if snute clues in on the hidden base faster it's a pretty different game IMO. not saying snute deserved to win, but first almost threw.
in the infamous game 3, snute was never even close to dead. a zerg with 5k/5k and swarm/static is not dead. they made first's air switch seem unstoppable and game-ending and talked like his army was infinitely better - it wasn't. snute countered voids properly with a few fungals and abducts and then the game moved into endgame, where each player had pretty much their ideal army maxed out. SH/corruptor/viper/queen/static D vs colossus/airtoss/templar is an equal scenario, and first didn't keep up economically. by the time he started banking gas snute was already almost maxed and back to a good defensive position. sure, overgrowth is GREAT for the style snute used. sure, the style is strong in the metagame. but so is mass tempest. he overbuilt void rays, engaged too poorly and too often, and didn't have enough money to pump up to the nearly untouchable number of tempests he wanted. snute also had great transfuse control onto his corruptors to get the most out of them, which is actually VERY hard especially with air clumping. the way they called the game reinforced the common idea that SH/static D is overpowered. it's not, it's just a stage of the game that's horribly designed for both races.
snute showed that he has an unbelievable level of knowledge of how to play swarm host style in the lategame. sure it's strong on its own, but you have to take it to the level snute did with transfuses, defensive swarm host placements, sick viper control, etc. if you want to beat a korean with airtoss and tempest coming out.
talking about the "defensive mentality" of snute or that he's "abusing" SH is absurd. it's like saying a protoss who turtles to void ray/colossus instead of doing an immortal sentry all in is abusive and afraid to attack. lair attacks have to do a minimum amount of damage, and if protoss defends perfectly you are incredibly fucked for tech, you usually lose your whole army and then have to rebuild army to defend WHILE teching, wait for the tech you need to defend the counter push... it's nearly impossible, and korean protoss know how to turtle against lair just like snute knows how to turtle against deathballs. lair aggression is very very close to all-in other than very tight ling/hydra timings. essentially this argument is "i don't like swarm hosts and i don't like zerg, so i want snute to walk out into the middle of the map with weak units and die for my entertainment." are swarm hosts the most exciting style? no. do we have other options in the lategame? no.
if you don't like zerg having "free" units and abilities then you jsut don't like zerg. zerg units aren't strong enough to fight protoss units or terran mech units without adding static D and casting spells. or using timed units (not "free" units) like locusts and broodlings to tank so the zerg army doesn't just evaporate instantly. our units are cheaper, faster, less efficient and get hardcountered MUCH more easily. there is NO single zerg unit that can be massed against a well-teched deathball, certainly not swarm hosts. you need swarm hosts, vipers, corruptors, often infestors or queens, and often static defense, AND good control on top of it to win against an equally skilled toss in the lategame. snute played better. he had a small map advantage, that's it.
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EPT
