In order to help perhaps simplify making decisions regarding these changes, XMG, ToD, and us at MLG have decided to host a bit of a tournament involving pro players to get a glance on what games could potentially look like. The players involved are:
Kas (T) Daisy (P) TLO (Z) San (P) Morrow (T) Destiny (Z) Strelok (T) Ret (Z)
Tuesday (10/29) 2PM ET/7PM CET: Kas vs Daisy - Bo3 3PM ET/8PM CET: TLO vs San - Bo3 4PM ET/9PM CET: Destiny vs Morrow - Bo3 5PM ET/10PM CET: Strelok vs Ret - Bo3
This is a great initiative. Pros generally don't play on these test maps, putting on a tournament with an incentive could be both entertaining and useful from a feedback standpoint.
Soo pumped up - this is what should be happening more - instead of endless theorycraft, community really getting into it and seeing what really happens with the changes.
I've created a mod that map publishers can use to supply you with more maps for your 2.0.11 balance tournament.
I've extracted the balance changes contained within the new "Alterzim Stronghold TE (2.0.11 Balance v1.1)" map and put them into that mod.
HOW TO USE:
1. Add a dependency to "Patch 2.0.11 v.1.1 Balance" to the map. The dependency need to be at the end of the list.
2. Publish the map.
3. In case I need to update the mod, you need to update the dependency to the mod, too. (Please rant about that @ Blizzard because using the newest version is only possible, if the mod was published with the same account.)
If you have questions, feel free to ask me.
How to test, if it's working properly: 1. Create a game, add an AI and start. 2. Press F12 and check the Oracle's movement speed. If it is "4.0", the mod's data is used. Else, it should display "3.375".
I would even recommend going as far as creating your own balance changes via the custom map editor and host this tournament more regularly. I would watch the shit out of it if the changes are fun(smaller main base, 1 gas per base, less mineral etc...). That could even gave the custom map scene a kick.
I love the players chosen. A lot of them were really innovative in the game. In fact, all of them were really well known for one thing or another.
Only thing I'd suggest is getting them into some of the casts after they've been knocked out. Even if it's just 1 game hearing the players talk about it would be extremely useful. This kind of tournament has the potential to help massively, might as well do it right. Get opinions and ideas on film.
Regardless, really great idea. I look forward to it.
While this is a fantastic idea, I feel like the players chosen are a bit too unevenly matched.
Nonetheless, I'd love to see similar things, especially with odd map-pools and other minor balance tweaks be given mini tournaments like this in the future.
On October 29 2013 01:44 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: So Destiny is the biggest name in this tournament coz he is in thread name?
He was one of the most popular sc2 streamers for a long time then disappeared to LoL while leaving behind a fairly large fanbase. By putting his name in the title it will bring in his old viewers and more than likely some of his newer league viewers.
This is in contrast to the other players whose fans haven't gone anywhere and will more than likely be watching this tournament regardless of whether their player is in it.
On October 29 2013 03:48 Juicy Orange wrote: Only 2 toss... Destiny might have a chance here.
Haha, Destiny has a chance when San is in the tournament?
Hopefully someone takes San out before he can even play Destiny, but I really hope that Destiny uses his defensive swarmhost BS while he just spams infested terrans in the enemy's base.
On October 29 2013 01:44 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: So Destiny is the biggest name in this tournament coz he is in thread name?
He was one of the most popular sc2 streamers for a long time then disappeared to LoL while leaving behind a fairly large fanbase. By putting his name in the title it will bring in his old viewers and more than likely some of his newer league viewers.
This is in contrast to the other players whose fans haven't gone anywhere and will more than likely be watching this tournament regardless of whether their player is in it.
oh right... sc2 is dying because Destiny switched to LoL.
Cool idea, I think this is a good precedent for future balance patches. I hope it becomes something regular, nothing like actual playtesting with spectators to see how changes really work out.
On October 29 2013 03:28 Maasked wrote: Will Destiny win? No. Is his opinion of balance changes pretty useful? yes.
glad we have him here.
Yeah he does throw out good thoughts, often not worded in the best ways but hey we know what to expect!!!
It's a good idea.
I think the way these balance tests usually go is lots of average players angry about the changes try to do the problem thing from before badly and it doesn't work, so Blizard decide its a fail and scrap it...
This is a vastly superior system. I hope you guys have the balance team on board with this?
Ah, shit. This is parallel to the EPS cup... I guess that also means that TLO won't be participating in that. Anyways, I will try to catch it on the side if time permits. In my opinion, blizzard should to something like this every time a balance test map gets released.
On October 29 2013 18:56 JustPassingBy wrote: Ah, shit. This is parallel to the EPS cup... I guess that also means that TLO won't be participating in that. Anyways, I will try to catch it on the side if time permits. In my opinion, blizzard should to something like this every time a balance test map gets released.
On October 29 2013 03:48 Juicy Orange wrote: Only 2 toss... Destiny might have a chance here.
Haha, Destiny has a chance when San is in the tournament?
Hopefully someone takes San out before he can even play Destiny, but I really hope that Destiny uses his defensive swarmhost BS while he just spams infested terrans in the enemy's base.
Anyone who can beat San will also crush Destiny ~_~. San is reaaaaally good.
I would up prices by 5 bucks to force them play mech lol.. Looking forward to this, should be fun. Also, the new map is so big, it is insane. But it is actually good to not lose game instantly if you lose your army once playing mech. So there are some advantages too.
On October 30 2013 03:19 Undead1993 wrote: kas defining the term "full foreigner" once more. this engagement i dont know how much worse of an engagement you can take
On October 30 2013 03:12 Qikz wrote: Why bother playing if you're going to play bio in TvP where the balance changes change nothing x_x
Isn't there some prize for winning?
yeah but I thought the point of the tournament was to see how the new changes change things, if you're not going to bother using them, there's no point in even entering.
On October 30 2013 03:12 Qikz wrote: Why bother playing if you're going to play bio in TvP where the balance changes change nothing x_x
Isn't there some prize for winning?
yeah but I thought the point of the tournament was to see how the new changes change things, if you're not going to bother using them, there's no point in even entering.
Hey, he built a tank and complained about changed upgrades :D
On October 30 2013 03:12 Qikz wrote: Why bother playing if you're going to play bio in TvP where the balance changes change nothing x_x
Isn't there some prize for winning?
yeah but I thought the point of the tournament was to see how the new changes change things, if you're not going to bother using them, there's no point in even entering.
Maybe he wants to earn some money, i mean that is his job after all. So why should he use ineffective strategies ? And Mech is just not viable vs. P.
On October 30 2013 03:12 Qikz wrote: Why bother playing if you're going to play bio in TvP where the balance changes change nothing x_x
Isn't there some prize for winning?
yeah but I thought the point of the tournament was to see how the new changes change things, if you're not going to bother using them, there's no point in even entering.
Maybe he wants to earn some money, i mean that is his job after all. So why should he use ineffective strategies ? And Mech is just not viable vs. P.
On October 30 2013 03:12 Qikz wrote: Why bother playing if you're going to play bio in TvP where the balance changes change nothing x_x
Isn't there some prize for winning?
yeah but I thought the point of the tournament was to see how the new changes change things, if you're not going to bother using them, there's no point in even entering.
Maybe he wants to earn some money, i mean that is his job after all. So why should he use ineffective strategies ? And Mech is just not viable vs. P.
On October 30 2013 03:31 Sapphire.lux wrote: Kas...FFS... As much as i like him, playing standard(ish) is but a waste of time in this tournament. Should have invited Lucifron
What do you want him to do? Go mech? It still won't work regardless of the patch.
On October 30 2013 03:31 Sapphire.lux wrote: Kas...FFS... As much as i like him, playing standard(ish) is but a waste of time in this tournament. Should have invited Lucifron
What do you want him to do? Go mech? It still won't work regardless of the patch.
I suspect as much, but maybe trying and failing would prompt Blizzard to do further changes at a faster rate.
On October 30 2013 03:31 Sapphire.lux wrote: Kas...FFS... As much as i like him, playing standard(ish) is but a waste of time in this tournament. Should have invited Lucifron
What do you want him to do? Go mech? It still won't work regardless of the patch.
I suspect as much, but maybe trying and failing would prompt Blizzard to do further changes at a faster rate.
Yeah if no one will try the new stuff, this tournament is kind of pointless.
On October 30 2013 03:31 Sapphire.lux wrote: Kas...FFS... As much as i like him, playing standard(ish) is but a waste of time in this tournament. Should have invited Lucifron
What do you want him to do? Go mech? It still won't work regardless of the patch.
I suspect as much, but maybe trying and failing would prompt Blizzard to do further changes at a faster rate.
Yeah if no one will try the new stuff, this tournament is kind of pointless.
Well, we may see hellbat-marauder-viking now. And it does benefit from patch.
On October 30 2013 03:43 pmp10 wrote: Man this analysis is some wood league material. Most casters understand little about terran but seriously - hellbats don't do well against colossi.
On October 30 2013 04:09 Everlong wrote: Playing macro game vs Protoss on such large map requires completely different playstyle then what Kas is doing right now..
It's pretty damn hard. I think I'll have 0% winrate on this map in TvP! Heh
On October 30 2013 04:09 Everlong wrote: Playing macro game vs Protoss on such large map requires completely different playstyle then what Kas is doing right now..
Or rather better multi task. Daisy is not good enough at deathball battles to fight well against hellbat-ghost-marauder-viking. Yes, i am serious, Daisy simply out-played Kas here outside of main battles. He just put himself in advantage enough to win anyways.
On October 30 2013 04:09 Everlong wrote: Playing macro game vs Protoss on such large map requires completely different playstyle then what Kas is doing right now..
It's pretty damn hard. I think I'll have 0% winrate on this map in TvP! Heh
It is actually not that hard, you just need to invest into solid infrastructure, sensor towers, missile turrets, planetary fortresses and such.. Warp mechanic just forces you to do so or you will inevitably lose in the long run.
On October 30 2013 04:09 Everlong wrote: Playing macro game vs Protoss on such large map requires completely different playstyle then what Kas is doing right now..
It's pretty damn hard. I think I'll have 0% winrate on this map in TvP! Heh
It is actually not that hard, you just need to invest into solid infrastructure, sensor towers, missile turrets, planetary fortresses and such.. Warp mechanic just forces you to do so or you will inevitably lose in the long run.
On October 30 2013 04:09 Everlong wrote: Playing macro game vs Protoss on such large map requires completely different playstyle then what Kas is doing right now..
It's pretty damn hard. I think I'll have 0% winrate on this map in TvP! Heh
It is actually not that hard, you just need to invest into solid infrastructure, sensor towers, missile turrets, planetary fortresses and such.. Warp mechanic just forces you to do so or you will inevitably lose in the long run.
I don't feel like the tunneling really did anything. If Oracles didn't detect, though, I could imagine heavy roach / hydra play being very dangerous again.
That burrow upgrade is so strong. Not only can they close quicker, snipe sentries, and make sneak attacks, but there is also a lot of extra healing they get from being burrowed more often.
On October 30 2013 04:39 PineapplePizza wrote: I don't feel like the tunneling really did anything. If Oracles didn't detect, though, I could imagine heavy roach / hydra play being very dangerous again.
TLO brings the good stuff either way.
They were able to escape stalkers easier actually, since stalkers could not chase them as easy.
On October 30 2013 04:39 PineapplePizza wrote: I don't feel like the tunneling really did anything. If Oracles didn't detect, though, I could imagine heavy roach / hydra play being very dangerous again.
TLO brings the good stuff either way.
The roaches were able to get to the sentries much easier, TLO was killing tons of them. Also, the roaches tanked huge amounts of damage.
On October 30 2013 05:47 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: Destiny doesnt even belong. How can you come to any conclusion after that except that Destiny sucks compared to Morrow?
Why did he bash the sweet swedes btw?
He is jealous of our clearly superior hockey skills.
On October 30 2013 05:47 Shellshock wrote: What was the result between TLO and San?
TLO overwhelmed him with roach/hydra in the first game, we get to see tunneling claws in action. San just lost sentries and didn't build enough cannons + splash to deal with it.
2nd game was an attempt at doublewarren roach play. His speedling harass was deflected, and then zealot + voidray attacked and killed his third. He built too many drones, and his roaches couldn't do any damage in return.
3rd game was more roach/hydra from TLO on the megashakuras map. Oracles looked pretty good here, and colossi / sentry was too much for tlo to handle.
On October 30 2013 06:10 Qikz wrote: I'm so happy. I'm so god damn happy. I might finally see mech be used by Flash! :D
He didn't wait a possible patch for that.
He played it one game and it failed because he couldn't defend his bases with tanks. Well, he played it before but it wasn't very good as he lost to swarmhosts.
The buff seems to make tanks viable again which is fucking awesome.
I think the story here is that it was "just" Ret. There are no excuse for banking 10k, 5k and not getting upgrades, or counter-attacking more. Also, perhaps next game Ret scouts which composition Strelok is going for before building his own stuff.
On October 30 2013 06:15 Ghanburighan wrote: I think the story here is that it was "just" Ret. There are no excuse for banking 10k, 5k and not getting upgrades, or counter-attacking more. Also, perhaps next game Ret scouts which composition Strelok is going for before building his own stuff.
At least he kept his supply up which is more that can be said for many players facing mech.
On October 30 2013 06:10 dinosrwar wrote: Omg shared vehicle/air upgrades.
That's not gonna stay in. This instant 3/3 air army is terrifying.
Exactly. The pure deathball ahead of us.
I saw yesterday Avilo defeating a protoss with mech, relying on hellions to get rid of templars and on mass banshees/vikings to rule the air and make quick work of immortals. His opponent was perhaps not playing very well but with the upgrades, this could get scary.
On October 30 2013 06:10 dinosrwar wrote: Omg shared vehicle/air upgrades.
That's not gonna stay in. This instant 3/3 air army is terrifying.
Exactly. The pure deathball ahead of us.
I saw yesterday Avilo defeating a protoss with mech, relying on hellions to get rid of templars and on mass banshees/vikings to rule the air and make quick work of immortals. His opponent was perhaps not playing very well but with the upgrades, this could get scary.
Don't understeand if there is a race that needs to have best "deathball" it needs to be Terran due to slowest macro/production/remax posibilities?
On October 30 2013 06:15 Sapphire.lux wrote: Interesting. On a decent map it could be even better.
That's by far one of the coolest maps for mech. I'm not going to explain the reason why anymore as I'll be a broken record, but that map owns.
I'm not talking about "viability" but rather "fun factor". It's too big and promotes to much passive play and 4387584 min/gas banks. At least that's how i see it now.
On October 30 2013 06:18 Green_25 wrote: I like Terran mech until it reaches the mass air deathball stage. That composition is stupidly strong and doesn't exactly take skill to use...
We need archon toilet back. Infestor + viper probably work if positioned properly I think.
On October 30 2013 06:10 dinosrwar wrote: Omg shared vehicle/air upgrades.
That's not gonna stay in. This instant 3/3 air army is terrifying.
Exactly. The pure deathball ahead of us.
I saw yesterday Avilo defeating a protoss with mech, relying on hellions to get rid of templars and on mass banshees/vikings to rule the air and make quick work of immortals. His opponent was perhaps not playing very well but with the upgrades, this could get scary.
Don't understeand if there is a race that needs to have best "deathball" it needs to be Terran due to slowest macro/production/remax posibilities?
Yeah but it kinda takes away from the viewing experience when gsl koreans use battlecruisers the same way gold leaguers do
On October 30 2013 06:10 Tuczniak wrote: Shared mech upgrades just encourage sitting in your base until maxed on battlecruiser/raven in TvZ .
It makes a different playstyle viable. That's brilliant for the game!
Watch 10 avilo's tvzs and tell me it's fun after that :D.
I suspect Avilo plays the most soul-crushingly frustrating style possible on purpose just to make some weird point.
No, he playes mech and he enjoyes winning. He didn't make it so you have to turtle with mech, because Vipers/Sh totally absolutely counter tanks in a way it is not even funny. Don't get me started on Immortal.
On October 30 2013 06:10 dinosrwar wrote: Omg shared vehicle/air upgrades.
That's not gonna stay in. This instant 3/3 air army is terrifying.
Exactly. The pure deathball ahead of us.
I saw yesterday Avilo defeating a protoss with mech, relying on hellions to get rid of templars and on mass banshees/vikings to rule the air and make quick work of immortals. His opponent was perhaps not playing very well but with the upgrades, this could get scary.
Don't understeand if there is a race that needs to have best "deathball" it needs to be Terran due to slowest macro/production/remax posibilities?
How is terran the weakest macrowise? Mules are beastly in the endgame. Also would it be viable to move your buildings to accelerate the reinforcements?
On October 30 2013 06:10 Qikz wrote: I'm so happy. I'm so god damn happy. I might finally see mech be used by Flash! :D
He didn't wait a possible patch for that.
He played it one game and it failed because he couldn't defend his bases with tanks. Well, he played it before but it wasn't very good as he lost to swarmhosts.
The buff seems to make tanks viable again which is fucking awesome.
Flash played mech in TvZ more than one time recently. The Tank buff will not significantly change the mech part, and with the merged upgrades we will probably see air armies as the real game plan, with the ground part just being used to secure 4 bases while the dual Armory works.
Terran air has always been the strongest. (besides maybe mass void ray carrier, but that takes even longer than raven/vikings/bc) The raven alone acts as both a flying siege unit and a complete defense against a number of units like corruptors.
Even if ret made 100 3/3 corruptors, 15 ravens could wipe it out unless ret constantly move all the corruptors around which means they are not attacking, while vikings and BC kill them with 9 range and yamato
On October 30 2013 06:23 SafeAsCheese wrote: Terran air has always been the strongest. (besides maybe mass void ray carrier, but that takes even longer than raven/vikings/bc)
Carriers and/or Tempests along with Templars denies.
On October 30 2013 06:15 Sapphire.lux wrote: Interesting. On a decent map it could be even better.
That's by far one of the coolest maps for mech. I'm not going to explain the reason why anymore as I'll be a broken record, but that map owns.
I'm not talking about "viability" but rather "fun factor". It's too big and promotes to much passive play and 4387584 min/gas banks. At least that's how i see it now.
There's nothing wrong with passive play. I'd rather have passive play and games that mean if you lose an army you can build again and not insta lose.
On October 30 2013 06:10 dinosrwar wrote: Omg shared vehicle/air upgrades.
That's not gonna stay in. This instant 3/3 air army is terrifying.
Exactly. The pure deathball ahead of us.
I saw yesterday Avilo defeating a protoss with mech, relying on hellions to get rid of templars and on mass banshees/vikings to rule the air and make quick work of immortals. His opponent was perhaps not playing very well but with the upgrades, this could get scary.
Don't understeand if there is a race that needs to have best "deathball" it needs to be Terran due to slowest macro/production/remax posibilities?
How is terran the weakest macrowise? Mules are beastly in the endgame. Also would it be viable to move your buildings to accelerate the reinforcements?
No, absolutely that would be bad idea, you can't let your buildings just anywhere you want. Not against Zerg/Toss with superior reinforcements/map control, etc.. If you lose your factories, it's over.. . We are talking about mech here. Mech is not limited by minerals, but by gas, so it doesn't matter how many mules you have at all. Actually, only "macro" advantage Terran can possibly get over other 2 races is CC farming late-game to make like 170 army supply. It's decent, but it often doesn't work and you need your workers to mine actually, build stuff, repair, etc..
I think we need some Benny Hill music to go with this game. If this is what speed burrowed roaches can do, now imagine what Muta-DT's would have been like.
On October 30 2013 06:31 InfamousOne wrote: I have no issue with mech being vuable but i dont want bio to become the old mech... Widow mine nerf is going to ruin tvz
Those are just two players not even in challenger league. I don't believe bio play would die in Korea.
On a more serious note, vikings don't really stop vipers from off-loading their energy, although the vipers do seem to go down eventually (I didn't see Ret move them back, though).
On October 30 2013 06:35 Ghanburighan wrote: On a more serious note, vikings don't really stop vipers from off-loading their energy, although the vipers do seem to go down eventually (I didn't see Ret move them back, though).
The vipers seem to die faster with the upgraded vikings. When Flash lost on this map with mech, his vikings never really killed the vipers and they just lived to regen energy.
On October 30 2013 06:10 Tuczniak wrote: Shared mech upgrades just encourage sitting in your base until maxed on battlecruiser/raven in TvZ .
It makes a different playstyle viable. That's brilliant for the game!
Watch 10 avilo's tvzs and tell me it's fun after that :D.
I suspect Avilo plays the most soul-crushingly frustrating style possible on purpose just to make some weird point.
No, he playes mech and he enjoyes winning. He didn't make it so you have to turtle with mech, because Vipers/Sh totally absolutely counter tanks in a way it is not even funny. Don't get me started on Immortal.
Exactly. The strongest way and only way to theoretically play mech vs Zergs that use swarmhosts and Protosses that use tempests...is to turtle while harrassing and accumulating ravens.
If Z/P decide they want to build swarmhost/tempest, you cannot ever, ever, ever beat it with "pure mech." You have to accumulate ravens with mech to beat the new HOTS units (cause you need 8000 PDDs :D lol)
If tempests/vipers/swarmhosts did not so severely hard counter tanks/mech, a meching Terran could have opportunities to attack and build medivacs/harrass instead of only defend. But right now the best way to play mech is SC1 style where you harrass with hellions (aka vultures) while building up ravens (aka science vessels).
People should also remember that if mech is more viable, it means things like carriers, mass warp prism metagame, and roach/hydra/viper/nydus will be "new" things for the other two races because you really can't play the same way against mech that you do against bio.
On October 31 2013 03:49 elanobissen wrote: So fucking sad to the magic of mech vs bio go
What? You were watching a game of a guy who never bios (Strelok) go against mech by Morrow. Also mech vs bio was never magical. I sure love watching one guy being behind from the very beginning of the game thanks to his tech choice.
On October 31 2013 03:49 elanobissen wrote: So fucking sad to the magic of mech vs bio go
I have taken to playing mech against Z and T almost exclusively, and it's pretty strong as long as you guard against the mobility advantages available in the medivac/bio composition. I've never built more turrets in my life than while meching - because of paranoia that while I'm inching out across the map, I'll get a backstab drop.
The 111 has to make a comeback if this goes through. I have asked for it before with the free siege. And with cheaper cloak. And now there would be more rapid fire and combined upgrades. Did it ever include an armor or attack upgrade? Don't remember if there was time for that. Whatever. Bring the pain.
On October 31 2013 04:21 AlternativeEgo wrote: The 111 has to make a comeback if this goes through. I have asked for it before with the free siege. And with cheaper cloak. And now there would be more rapid fire and combined upgrades. Did it ever include an armor or attack upgrade? Don't remember if there was time for that. Whatever. Bring the pain.
On October 31 2013 05:03 Everlong wrote: I mean, no bunker at natural playing mech is kinda.. Silly, can't judge anything from these games sadly.
Tbh, Strelok's builds here feel like they just fail to decently played standard game and are BO countered by stargate openers essentially.
Well he scouted that proxy sg as soon as possible and it still nearly killed him.. I don't know, seems pretty broken.. Imagine this happening on new map where proxy locations are not so obvious.
On October 31 2013 05:03 Everlong wrote: I mean, no bunker at natural playing mech is kinda.. Silly, can't judge anything from these games sadly.
Tbh, Strelok's builds here feel like they just fail to decently played standard game and are BO countered by stargate openers essentially.
Well he scouted that proxy sg as soon as possible and it still nearly killed him.. I don't know, seems pretty broken.. Imagine this happening on new map where proxy locations are not so obvious.
If he was being kited to death by the oracles the patch would matter. Strelok just died to things doable without the changes.
On October 31 2013 05:03 Everlong wrote: I mean, no bunker at natural playing mech is kinda.. Silly, can't judge anything from these games sadly.
Tbh, Strelok's builds here feel like they just fail to decently played standard game and are BO countered by stargate openers essentially.
Well he scouted that proxy sg as soon as possible and it still nearly killed him.. I don't know, seems pretty broken.. Imagine this happening on new map where proxy locations are not so obvious.
Yeah thats hard to watch. But you can't one base as terran, you will fall behind against protoss no matter what. Literally zero one base attacks really work against Toss
On October 31 2013 05:03 Everlong wrote: I mean, no bunker at natural playing mech is kinda.. Silly, can't judge anything from these games sadly.
Tbh, Strelok's builds here feel like they just fail to decently played standard game and are BO countered by stargate openers essentially.
Well he scouted that proxy sg as soon as possible and it still nearly killed him.. I don't know, seems pretty broken.. Imagine this happening on new map where proxy locations are not so obvious.
Uhem, he held pretty well. He got contained though and that's another thing that is unaffected by anything but build.
Anyways those timings from San are just not possible to hold without solid wall or healthy hellbat count. I've been trying so many openings that would make me hold this, but then I just lose to some even more stupid thing like hallucination colossus bust, or just overly greedy play straight to air etc.. Hopefully those merged upgrads are going to help once you get past the first 10 minutes of complete random bullshit TvP is right now.
On October 31 2013 05:10 Everlong wrote: Anyways those timings from San are just not possible to hold without solid wall or healthy hellbat count. I've been trying so many openings that would make me hold this, but then I just lose to some even more stupid thing like hallucination colossus bust, or just overly greedy play straight to air etc.. Hopefully those merged upgrads are going to help once you get past the first 10 minutes of complete random bullshit TvP is right now.
By the way, yeah. Essentially i think hellion openings are the best, but IMO you better A. not waste hellions. B. get transformation servos. After all, if you transform 20 hellions into 20 hellbats, you will wipe out mineral line, will you not :3?
Unfortunately San is a bit too good for the rest of the line-up, but we got to see some interesting and fun games. Strelok vs Ret was the highlight series.
On October 31 2013 05:25 Squat wrote: I still think Destiny was the best player in this tournament, he just had bad luck and would easily have beaten San in the finals with his mindgames
No way San will expect infestors 3rd game in a row. Ah nvm, he had blink.
On October 31 2013 05:26 Sapphire.lux wrote: Need to see more games but the early game T(mech)vP looks potentially broken in favor of P.
Yeah, San did random builds and got far ahead every time, while Strelok with ton of experience playing mech had no idea what is going on.. Seems pretty broken to me.
On October 31 2013 05:26 Sapphire.lux wrote: Need to see more games but the early game T(mech)vP looks potentially broken in favor of P.
Yeah, San did random builds and got far ahead every time, while Strelok with ton of experience playing mech had no idea what is going on.. Seems pretty broken to me.
Yes, I know San is the better player here.
1 base terran sucks. Short overview of SC2 after queen patch and HotS.
On October 31 2013 05:26 Sapphire.lux wrote: Need to see more games but the early game T(mech)vP looks potentially broken in favor of P.
Yeah, San did random builds and got far ahead every time, while Strelok with ton of experience playing mech had no idea what is going on.. Seems pretty broken to me.
Yes, I know San is the better player here.
1 base terran sucks. Short overview of SC2 after queen patch and HotS.
It seems that to be somewhat safe you have to delay the expo for a long time and Protoss gets a big advantage in eco. Again, need to see more games.
Tanks still suck against Protoss no doubt about that. Hopefully they are good enough to have a place in TvZ now. EDIT: Axlav, way to biased against Terran.
Too bad the series didn't show anything new. We already knew that mech openings are unsafe, 3rd bases a nightmare to hold and air transitions difficult to handle. Maybe revival of the 2 base all-in is in order.
On October 31 2013 05:32 pmp10 wrote: Too bad the series didn't show anything new. We already knew that mech openings are unsafe, 3rd bases a nightmare to hold and air transitions difficult to handle. Maybe revival of the 2 base all-in is in order.
not in TvP. In TvZ there is already room for some potent 2base mech allins.
On October 31 2013 05:32 pmp10 wrote: Too bad the series didn't show anything new. We already knew that mech openings are unsafe, 3rd bases a nightmare to hold and air transitions difficult to handle. Maybe revival of the 2 base all-in is in order.
not in TvP. In TvZ there is already room for some potent 2base mech allins.
Well, playing mech in TvP in SC2 is like playing bio in TvP in SC:BW. Can work, if you take enemy by surprise.
On October 31 2013 05:32 pmp10 wrote: Too bad the series didn't show anything new. We already knew that mech openings are unsafe, 3rd bases a nightmare to hold and air transitions difficult to handle. Maybe revival of the 2 base all-in is in order.
not in TvP. In TvZ there is already room for some potent 2base mech allins.
Well, playing mech in TvP in SC2 is like playing bio in TvP in SC:BW. Can work, if you take enemy by surprise.
How anyone can be taken by surprise by mech is beyond me tbh.
On October 31 2013 05:32 pmp10 wrote: Too bad the series didn't show anything new. We already knew that mech openings are unsafe, 3rd bases a nightmare to hold and air transitions difficult to handle. Maybe revival of the 2 base all-in is in order.
not in TvP. In TvZ there is already room for some potent 2base mech allins.
Well, playing mech in TvP in SC2 is like playing bio in TvP in SC:BW. Can work, if you take enemy by surprise.
How anyone can be taken by surprise by mech is beyond me tbh.
On October 31 2013 05:32 pmp10 wrote: Too bad the series didn't show anything new. We already knew that mech openings are unsafe, 3rd bases a nightmare to hold and air transitions difficult to handle. Maybe revival of the 2 base all-in is in order.
not in TvP. In TvZ there is already room for some potent 2base mech allins.
Well, playing mech in TvP in SC2 is like playing bio in TvP in SC:BW. Can work, if you take enemy by surprise.
How anyone can be taken by surprise by mech is beyond me tbh.
Apparently Naniwa was. He did not make immortals. Against tanks.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/85jgB8f.png)
