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On April 29 2013 03:35 DeathProfessor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 02:02 sitromit wrote:On April 29 2013 01:49 LightSpectra wrote:On April 29 2013 01:35 sitromit wrote:On April 29 2013 01:01 shid0x wrote:
Just got back from vacation and watches vods...
Naniwa may not be a king...He is an emperor !
Really impressed by his mircro and playstyle throughout the entire tournament, without any doubts the ''true'' winner of this DH.
lol@vortix who was flaming nani recently about his results,where are you now vortix,where ? So the guy who actually won and dropped only 3 maps the entire tournament is not the "true" winner, the runner-up is. Got it... That makes perfect sense. That's obviously not what he's saying. If the runner up is the true winner, that implies the winner is not the true winner. So what exactly is he saying? Yeah I am kinda getting over this communities chirpiness, I knew it would take literally two posts for some guy to go "Leenock "truly" won how dare you" part of this are everyone here seems to be a non-native English speaker and so many insulted posts are based off not understanding subtlety in language. In English things in "quotes" are not usually serious. Like saying I have a "two-ton" amount of coca cola in my cup. A moron would actually believe Naniwa won for real man c'mon. What he meant was more "meta-winning" or winning in a subjective sense. Like when it started we had huge doubts about Naniwa's skill and everyone hated him for his attitude. Naniwa won big this weekend, not only did he break through and prove himself to be around Code-S level, he showed a kind and humble side to himself few had rarely ever seen and won a LOT of new fans and got the unofficial title "King of the North" so in that way he won Dreamhack. That is "winning" Dreamhack if you know what I mean. I am sure Leenock is happy with his real win. 
It's so sad that someone has to explain this xD...
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On April 29 2013 10:17 mongmong wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 09:23 Balfazar wrote:On April 28 2013 17:18 zefreak wrote:On April 28 2013 13:30 Balfazar wrote:On April 28 2013 12:38 TheDougler wrote:On April 28 2013 09:33 EnumaAvalon wrote:On April 28 2013 09:22 xgtx wrote:
there are 7 zergs in code s right now , leenock is none of them and you guys are saying leenock is beside life the best zerg ? ...... Have you seen Leenock's ZvZ in the tourney? So sick! I think the best thing about the group of death is Roro must HATE it. Seriously, Leenock is great but Roro might legitimately be the best Zerg right now. Until he is eliminated from GSL that is a fairly reasonable claim. He's still sick good in pro league, and is the defending GSL champion. No problem, it just means people will keep underestimating him as he rolls over everyone. Life has more visibility because he has been winning international events, but Roro has more success in the toughest arena and he is my pick to take the season. Life has won 2 GSL's, as well as everything else. Roro has more success in the toughest arena? Life has won one GSL, so he is equal with Roro in that regard. Of course Roro beat Life on the way to his GSL, which I would argue is an easy tiebreaker. Looking at the three GSL Code S they have both participated in: 2012 Season 5 - Roro ro32, Life ro16 2013 Season 1 - Roro winner, Life ro16 2013 Season 2 (ongoing) - Both ro16 thus far, Roro 4-0'ed his group while Life went 4-2 Clear that Roro comes out ahead. Conclusion is that Life is rated higher due to international results. None of this bothers me, it simply makes being a Roro fan more fun. well Roro didnt have to face Leenock and Parting to go through. Also Blizz cup counts as one GSL so its actually two blizz cups he won.
As an MKP fan I would be pleased if special events were seen as equivalent to a GSL, but they have always been seen as separate and lesser.
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Life has won one GSL, so he is equal with Roro in that regard. Of course Roro beat Life on the way to his GSL, which I would argue is an easy tiebreaker.
As was already mentioned, Life has won 2 (two) GSLs. There's no tie. Add 2x MLGs, Iron Squid, and you'll see there is nothing even remotely close to tie.
As an MKP fan I would be pleased if special events were seen as equivalent to a GSL
It has GSL right there in the name: 2012 GSL Blizzard Cup.
And I am not even starting on why would GSL count as better than Iron Squid or MLG. Is beating MKP in semifinals and Dongraegu in the finals somehow easier in Iron Squid than it is in GSL? Beating Leanock is MLG is easier than in GSL? Foreign tournaments definitely have different formats and slightly different skills required (preparation vs no preparation, few games per day vs lots of games per day), and since Life has won both Korean and international competitions multiple times, and Roro only one Korean tournament once, it's rather obvious who is the best and more well rounded zerg now.
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On April 29 2013 08:54 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 06:55 Spidinko wrote:On April 28 2013 05:13 Shikyo wrote:
Can't win in macro game -> better cheese Cannot defend all ins -> guilt players into playing macro game Defending all ins is easy though (except for immo/sentry. It is just hard to know what is coming. As the all inning player you are basically hoping that the other player opens greedy and doesn't scout perfectly. Macro players are infinitely more skilled then all inners and cheesers.
We all know SC2 is a game with incomplete information. Thus, it contains gambles.
It's mostly mind games. You want your opponent to think you're doing something else and get a small edge. Make them defend an all in and go greedy -> you get an edge. Make them go greedy and punish -> you get an edge.
Macro term here doesn't really mean that much as there are plenty of eco cheeses.
Like it or not, most of the pro games are about tricking your opponent.
Also different races have different strengths. Protoss have many strong timings. You'd have to be a pretty terrible player to not capitalize on that.
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On April 26 2013 17:03 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2013 16:55 Laryleprakon wrote:On April 26 2013 16:53 Elroi wrote:
wooot. I just realized Jaedong can win this tournament.
Isn't this an uncharacteristically weak line up for a Dreamhack? This seems like a much stronger line up than a lot of the events last year. I didn't follow them so I wouldn't know, I just thought they had stronger line ups. MC and Leenock are very strong and Jaedong and HerO too on a good day but I don't think anyone of them is top 10 in the world right now.
I was completely off the mark with MC, but the three others made top 4 at least.
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On April 28 2013 18:39 Kaewins wrote:
Of all the people that could have played the finals against Leenock, Naniwa was the worst and weakest choice. He cheesed his way to the finals and was the the least prepared and least capable player. I think he probably understands, that he should have lost to TLO/Jaedong, who are much better and more talented than him and could have beaten Leenock.
The result 3:2 sounds pretty impressive to someone who has not watched the finals, but in reality Naniwa didn't have a chance at any point. Yeah his all in play may work in best of 3, but it doesn't in best of 5. Jaedong would have crushed him in bo5. And Leenock crushed him in the finals, not because Zerg is OP, but because Naniwa basically plays 1 very all-in ish build and the only other thing he did was to cheese. He was outplayed by TLO and by Jaedong, and in every game against Leenock. That proxy gate in game 2 against Jaedong was the most pathetic thing I've seen in this entire tournament.
Agreed, 100%
Except Naniwa does indeed seem to work hard, which makes his god awful gameplay althemore shameful. I think the fact that he was playing at home might explain the 'greatness' of his result.
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Poland3775 Posts
On April 29 2013 15:47 Sejanus wrote:Show nested quote +
Life has won one GSL, so he is equal with Roro in that regard. Of course Roro beat Life on the way to his GSL, which I would argue is an easy tiebreaker.
As was already mentioned, Life has won 2 (two) GSLs. There's no tie. Add 2x MLGs, Iron Squid, and you'll see there is nothing even remotely close to tie. Show nested quote +
As an MKP fan I would be pleased if special events were seen as equivalent to a GSL
It has GSL right there in the name: 2012 GSL Blizzard Cup. And I am not even starting on why would GSL count as better than Iron Squid or MLG. Is beating MKP in semifinals and Dongraegu in the finals somehow easier in Iron Squid than it is in GSL? Beating Leanock is MLG is easier than in GSL? Foreign tournaments definitely have different formats and slightly different skills required (preparation vs no preparation, few games per day vs lots of games per day), and since Life has won both Korean and international competitions multiple times, and Roro only one Korean tournament once, it's rather obvious who is the best and more well rounded zerg now.
Blizzard Cup is the 2nd highest achievement in SC2, 1st being GSL championship. It's not about quality of opponents, Blizzard Cup is just too short and has to weird qualification mechanism.
In Tennis you don't really compare Grand Slam with Tour Final Championships. In StarCraft 2 you don't compare GSL with something else.
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Poland3775 Posts
On April 29 2013 16:39 DustbinBieber wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 18:39 Kaewins wrote:
Of all the people that could have played the finals against Leenock, Naniwa was the worst and weakest choice. He cheesed his way to the finals and was the the least prepared and least capable player. I think he probably understands, that he should have lost to TLO/Jaedong, who are much better and more talented than him and could have beaten Leenock.
The result 3:2 sounds pretty impressive to someone who has not watched the finals, but in reality Naniwa didn't have a chance at any point. Yeah his all in play may work in best of 3, but it doesn't in best of 5. Jaedong would have crushed him in bo5. And Leenock crushed him in the finals, not because Zerg is OP, but because Naniwa basically plays 1 very all-in ish build and the only other thing he did was to cheese. He was outplayed by TLO and by Jaedong, and in every game against Leenock. That proxy gate in game 2 against Jaedong was the most pathetic thing I've seen in this entire tournament. Agreed, 100% Except Naniwa does indeed seem to work hard, which makes his god awful gameplay althemore shameful. I think the fact that he was playing at home might explain the 'greatness' of his result.
I guess haters gonna hate no matter what.
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On April 29 2013 16:39 DustbinBieber wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 18:39 Kaewins wrote:
Of all the people that could have played the finals against Leenock, Naniwa was the worst and weakest choice. He cheesed his way to the finals and was the the least prepared and least capable player. I think he probably understands, that he should have lost to TLO/Jaedong, who are much better and more talented than him and could have beaten Leenock.
The result 3:2 sounds pretty impressive to someone who has not watched the finals, but in reality Naniwa didn't have a chance at any point. Yeah his all in play may work in best of 3, but it doesn't in best of 5. Jaedong would have crushed him in bo5. And Leenock crushed him in the finals, not because Zerg is OP, but because Naniwa basically plays 1 very all-in ish build and the only other thing he did was to cheese. He was outplayed by TLO and by Jaedong, and in every game against Leenock. That proxy gate in game 2 against Jaedong was the most pathetic thing I've seen in this entire tournament. Agreed, 100% Except Naniwa does indeed seem to work hard, which makes his god awful gameplay althemore shameful. I think the fact that he was playing at home might explain the 'greatness' of his result.
I'd love to know what makes people so insecure when talking about the success of some progamers. Yet to see a discussion about any progamer not somehow elicit some random haters who are angry about something (??) or other. One of life's greatest mysteries.
I always imagine these are the same sort of the people that hit the thumbs down button on youtube.
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I just love all the tears still flowing in this thread from butthurt JD,TLO and Leenock fans! Feed me more!
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United States97277 Posts
On April 29 2013 16:37 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2013 17:03 Elroi wrote:On April 26 2013 16:55 Laryleprakon wrote:On April 26 2013 16:53 Elroi wrote:
wooot. I just realized Jaedong can win this tournament.
Isn't this an uncharacteristically weak line up for a Dreamhack? This seems like a much stronger line up than a lot of the events last year. I didn't follow them so I wouldn't know, I just thought they had stronger line ups. MC and Leenock are very strong and Jaedong and HerO too on a good day but I don't think anyone of them is top 10 in the world right now. I was completely off the mark with MC, but the three others made top 4 at least.
That's kind of how MC is, though. Sometimes he looks like a top player that absolutely destroys and sometimes he completely bombs out of the tournament
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On April 29 2013 17:52 Shellshock1122 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 16:37 Elroi wrote:On April 26 2013 17:03 Elroi wrote:On April 26 2013 16:55 Laryleprakon wrote:On April 26 2013 16:53 Elroi wrote:
wooot. I just realized Jaedong can win this tournament.
Isn't this an uncharacteristically weak line up for a Dreamhack? This seems like a much stronger line up than a lot of the events last year. I didn't follow them so I wouldn't know, I just thought they had stronger line ups. MC and Leenock are very strong and Jaedong and HerO too on a good day but I don't think anyone of them is top 10 in the world right now. I was completely off the mark with MC, but the three others made top 4 at least. That's kind of how MC is, though. Sometimes he looks like a top player that absolutely destroys and sometimes he completely bombs out of the tournament
but i guess if you are around for as long as mc is slumps or fluctuations are inevitable...he's still the only one left from the big three (w/ MVP and Nestea) of the early Sc2 time.
I love Mvp and Nestea though, mind you!
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Poland3775 Posts
Actually both Mvp and NesTea can prove you wrong with their WCS EU and NA results. But I'd much rather see MMA reemerging as a top dog!
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Disgusted by the haters. Get another hobby or stop hurting E-Sports with your childish negativity.
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On April 29 2013 16:39 DustbinBieber wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 18:39 Kaewins wrote:
Of all the people that could have played the finals against Leenock, Naniwa was the worst and weakest choice. He cheesed his way to the finals and was the the least prepared and least capable player. I think he probably understands, that he should have lost to TLO/Jaedong, who are much better and more talented than him and could have beaten Leenock.
The result 3:2 sounds pretty impressive to someone who has not watched the finals, but in reality Naniwa didn't have a chance at any point. Yeah his all in play may work in best of 3, but it doesn't in best of 5. Jaedong would have crushed him in bo5. And Leenock crushed him in the finals, not because Zerg is OP, but because Naniwa basically plays 1 very all-in ish build and the only other thing he did was to cheese. He was outplayed by TLO and by Jaedong, and in every game against Leenock. That proxy gate in game 2 against Jaedong was the most pathetic thing I've seen in this entire tournament. Agreed, 100% Except Naniwa does indeed seem to work hard, which makes his god awful gameplay althemore shameful. I think the fact that he was playing at home might explain the 'greatness' of his result.
Both these posts are plain old dumb  . I'm not even remotely a Naniwa fan, but it's hard to read this with a straight face. Barring all fanboyism (and I have been a Jaedong fan forever, unlike most people who are all of a sudden big brood war fans), Jaedong in SC2 has been far removed from being some world beater that people are hyping him up to be. His ZvP particularly has always looked pretty shaky, which was again demonstrated in the Naniwa series. He won game 1 with a massive gamble which cost him in game 2, and lost game 3 in a similar way to his previous ZvP outings. In no way, shape or form did he outplay Naniwa in that series.
As for TLO, he won game 1 with a pretty silly "cheese", so calling that "outplayed" is a joke.
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On April 29 2013 15:47 Sejanus wrote:Show nested quote +
Life has won one GSL, so he is equal with Roro in that regard. Of course Roro beat Life on the way to his GSL, which I would argue is an easy tiebreaker.
As was already mentioned, Life has won 2 (two) GSLs. There's no tie. Add 2x MLGs, Iron Squid, and you'll see there is nothing even remotely close to tie. Show nested quote +
As an MKP fan I would be pleased if special events were seen as equivalent to a GSL
It has GSL right there in the name: 2012 GSL Blizzard Cup. And I am not even starting on why would GSL count as better than Iron Squid or MLG. Is beating MKP in semifinals and Dongraegu in the finals somehow easier in Iron Squid than it is in GSL? Beating Leanock is MLG is easier than in GSL? Foreign tournaments definitely have different formats and slightly different skills required (preparation vs no preparation, few games per day vs lots of games per day), and since Life has won both Korean and international competitions multiple times, and Roro only one Korean tournament once, it's rather obvious who is the best and more well rounded zerg now.
A tournament can't be the equal of GSL because it has some of the same players, and obviously not because it has a similar name. GSL is the toughest event because everyone in it is there for their recent results and no other reason (with the unfortunate exception of the two foreign seeds, now defunct). It doesn't matter if you are MVP or Nestea with a history and fanbase behind you, if you drop off for a season then you are out and replaced by someone who is producing results right now. Then you add to that the prestige and preparation time for each game which ensures that the players will be at their best. That's why GSL Code S is in a class of its own.
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On April 29 2013 18:19 budar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 16:39 DustbinBieber wrote:On April 28 2013 18:39 Kaewins wrote:
Of all the people that could have played the finals against Leenock, Naniwa was the worst and weakest choice. He cheesed his way to the finals and was the the least prepared and least capable player. I think he probably understands, that he should have lost to TLO/Jaedong, who are much better and more talented than him and could have beaten Leenock.
The result 3:2 sounds pretty impressive to someone who has not watched the finals, but in reality Naniwa didn't have a chance at any point. Yeah his all in play may work in best of 3, but it doesn't in best of 5. Jaedong would have crushed him in bo5. And Leenock crushed him in the finals, not because Zerg is OP, but because Naniwa basically plays 1 very all-in ish build and the only other thing he did was to cheese. He was outplayed by TLO and by Jaedong, and in every game against Leenock. That proxy gate in game 2 against Jaedong was the most pathetic thing I've seen in this entire tournament. Agreed, 100% Except Naniwa does indeed seem to work hard, which makes his god awful gameplay althemore shameful. I think the fact that he was playing at home might explain the 'greatness' of his result. Both these posts are plain old dumb . I'm not even remotely a Naniwa fan, but it's hard to read this with a straight face. Barring all fanboyism (and I have been a Jaedong fan forever, unlike most people who are all of a sudden big brood war fans), Jaedong in SC2 has been far removed from being some world beater that people are hyping him up to be. His ZvP particularly has always looked pretty shaky, which was again demonstrated in the Naniwa series. He won game 1 with a massive gamble which cost him in game 2, and lost game 3 in a similar way to his previous ZvP outings. In no way, shape or form did he outplay Naniwa in that series. As for TLO, he won game 1 with a pretty silly "cheese", so calling that "outplayed" is a joke.
You gotta understand people being annoyed that Jaedong, an incredible top performer on the hardest game that's ever existed, lost to Naniwa, a below average War3 semi-progamer who transitionned into cheesing his way to upsets.
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On April 29 2013 19:19 DustbinBieber wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 18:19 budar wrote:On April 29 2013 16:39 DustbinBieber wrote:On April 28 2013 18:39 Kaewins wrote:
Of all the people that could have played the finals against Leenock, Naniwa was the worst and weakest choice. He cheesed his way to the finals and was the the least prepared and least capable player. I think he probably understands, that he should have lost to TLO/Jaedong, who are much better and more talented than him and could have beaten Leenock.
The result 3:2 sounds pretty impressive to someone who has not watched the finals, but in reality Naniwa didn't have a chance at any point. Yeah his all in play may work in best of 3, but it doesn't in best of 5. Jaedong would have crushed him in bo5. And Leenock crushed him in the finals, not because Zerg is OP, but because Naniwa basically plays 1 very all-in ish build and the only other thing he did was to cheese. He was outplayed by TLO and by Jaedong, and in every game against Leenock. That proxy gate in game 2 against Jaedong was the most pathetic thing I've seen in this entire tournament. Agreed, 100% Except Naniwa does indeed seem to work hard, which makes his god awful gameplay althemore shameful. I think the fact that he was playing at home might explain the 'greatness' of his result. Both these posts are plain old dumb . I'm not even remotely a Naniwa fan, but it's hard to read this with a straight face. Barring all fanboyism (and I have been a Jaedong fan forever, unlike most people who are all of a sudden big brood war fans), Jaedong in SC2 has been far removed from being some world beater that people are hyping him up to be. His ZvP particularly has always looked pretty shaky, which was again demonstrated in the Naniwa series. He won game 1 with a massive gamble which cost him in game 2, and lost game 3 in a similar way to his previous ZvP outings. In no way, shape or form did he outplay Naniwa in that series. As for TLO, he won game 1 with a pretty silly "cheese", so calling that "outplayed" is a joke. You gotta understand people being annoyed that Jaedong, an incredible top performer on the hardest game that's ever existed, lost to Naniwa, a below average War3 semi-progamer who transitionned into cheesing his way to upsets.
Just because you keep saying that he is "cheesing his way to upsets" doesnt actually make it true. He cheesed once against Jaedong but it was the right thing to do considering what happened in the previous game. You could even argue that Jaedong cheesed with his 3 hatch befor pool in the first game. And yes, Jaedong was an amazing brood war player but I dont see how that has anything to do with the subject. You understand that this is a new game, right?
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You gotta understand people being annoyed that Jaedong, an incredible top performer on the hardest game that's ever existed, lost to Naniwa, a below average War3 semi-progamer who transitionned into cheesing his way to upsets.
First part. True. Yet in SC2 he is still lacking quite a bit, in comparison to some other big name like Flash for example.
Second part. Not so much. His cheese was an incredibly ballsy and smart counter-cheese to what JD did game 1. But blind hate/fanboyism won't let you see that.
I also love the BW elitism shining through that statement - gives me something to chuckle about coming from War3
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On April 29 2013 18:18 TigerKarl wrote:
Disgusted by the haters. Get another hobby or stop hurting E-Sports with your childish negativity.
You too. People should be able to discuss the event and criticize all they want. Anyway, I think Naniwa deserved to get his spot in the finals. He definitely played Code S level in the final day of Dreamhack.
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EPT
