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The usual: Don't flame casters or players. Don't discuss balance in this or any LR thread. Don't call your fellow posters idiots. Be excited, happy and entertained. |
opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On March 17 2013 22:19 LighT. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 22:15 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 17 2013 22:12 opterown wrote:On March 17 2013 22:09 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 17 2013 22:05 bittman wrote:On March 17 2013 21:54 TAMinator wrote:On March 17 2013 21:48 Visas wrote:
pff all koreans again. This game can only revive to its old glory when they start inviting much less koreans for mlg imo. You can watch your second rate foreigner play SC2 on a live stream, most of us want to see the best of the best Define "most of us". I mean, I agree with you. I'd rather watch the best of the best, and its usually koreans. But there's no denying that foreigners bring in the numbers. Big time. So I imagine "most" sc2 viewers at some level feel the same as Visas. Lets see if an actual quarterfinal bracket with bo5 that all could be GSL finals being completely played in one day brings most viewers or a foreigner tournament. I would bet my ass that we will easily beat the numbers of yesterday but we can't deny that if last or someone was, instead, naniwa or stephano, we would easily get larger numbers That is exactly what I am denying. You have to see the average, not a single match up. Life vs Naniwa probably would end in a 3-0 in no time and while I think Naniwa is an outstanding player if he brings his a-game and Life would be a tough match for even the best Protoss in the world, it would still be more interesting to see. If it would happen on a more regular basis that we would get a foreigner vs Korean quarterfinal or semifinal even we would have larger viewer numbers because its interesting. This way you can actually F5 30 minutes after the start and see a 3-0 most of the time. Viewercount yesterday was 80 000? If today isn't 100 000 I really don't believe Starcraft itself has a lot of fans. Edit: I would agree though that most of the people would stay up longer to watch a foreigner play instead of two Koreans regardless of the quality.  I have work :<..no way to catch the quarter finals and even one of the semi finals :<..... but yes.. last is a party pooper. he did it in the OSL, now he's doing it again in MLG. Wouldnt be surprised if he played spoiler and somehow won it all
the finals are a bo7, he can't win
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I've just seen the Flash vs. Ret games and the domination is so sick to watch.
Is this the Flash you Broodwar guys revered?
I'm simply awed by the speed, precision and macro this guy has. I'll be having nightmares tonight, dreaming I'd be trying to keep up with that...
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On March 17 2013 22:21 Inzan1ty wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 22:14 LighT. wrote:On March 17 2013 22:10 edgeOut wrote:On March 17 2013 21:48 Visas wrote:
pff all koreans again. This game can only revive to its old glory when they start inviting much less koreans for mlg imo. At least foreigners can take one or two maps from Korean, that's better than BW days. I remember taking one map off a korean was considered a huge feat Foreigners have come a long way  thats why some people are waiting for Warcraft 4 foreigners stand a better chance
Koreans and chineses were shitting on foreigners in wc3, I don't think the trend will change in wc4
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On March 17 2013 22:09 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 22:05 bittman wrote:On March 17 2013 21:54 TAMinator wrote:On March 17 2013 21:48 Visas wrote:
pff all koreans again. This game can only revive to its old glory when they start inviting much less koreans for mlg imo. You can watch your second rate foreigner play SC2 on a live stream, most of us want to see the best of the best Define "most of us". I mean, I agree with you. I'd rather watch the best of the best, and its usually koreans. But there's no denying that foreigners bring in the numbers. Big time. So I imagine "most" sc2 viewers at some level feel the same as Visas. Lets see if an actual quarterfinal bracket with bo5 that all could be GSL finals being completely played in one day brings most viewers or a foreigner tournament. I would bet my ass that we will easily beat the numbers of yesterday
You say that as if we had plenty of high profile foreigner-only tournaments.
The only one was WCS and it's European qualifier set the viewer record.
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On March 17 2013 22:25 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 22:21 Inzan1ty wrote:On March 17 2013 22:14 LighT. wrote:On March 17 2013 22:10 edgeOut wrote:On March 17 2013 21:48 Visas wrote:
pff all koreans again. This game can only revive to its old glory when they start inviting much less koreans for mlg imo. At least foreigners can take one or two maps from Korean, that's better than BW days. I remember taking one map off a korean was considered a huge feat Foreigners have come a long way thats why some people are waiting for Warcraft 4 foreigners stand a better chance Koreans and chineses were shitting on foreigners in wc3, I don't think the trend will change in wc4
Grubby was pretty good still, so was ToD and others. Although Moon, Sky etc. were badass
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On March 17 2013 20:12 Grovbolle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 20:07 Hider wrote:On March 17 2013 19:49 Grovbolle wrote:On March 17 2013 19:39 Hider wrote:On March 17 2013 19:36 Grovbolle wrote: Win Top 2 Top 4 Top 8
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Life 36.71% 29.26% 22.72% 11.30%
PartinG 22.53% 20.74% 24.93% 31.80%
Bomber 16.91% 6.93% 57.97% 18.19%
Rain 14.34% 19.05% 36.02% 30.59%
Flash 3.28% 9.47% 19.06% 68.20%
INnoVation 2.89% 7.69% 20.00% 69.41%
MC 2.49% 4.28% 11.41% 81.81%
Last 0.84% 2.57% 7.89% 88.70% To those interested, I left out anything but the last players, please remember that this is mostly based on WoL and Kespa pros are a lot more "hidden" from the general population. Innovation 2%? This is completely useless. Statistical methods are supposed to help when quantifying stuff is to complicated to do subjectively. If you can't improve the methodology, aligulac is just a waste of time. Based on what? I agree that innovation is underrated in this, but we can't just magically up his rating. It will rise as his results improves. He loses to too many randoms in SPL. Plus we are still waiting for points to "transfer" to kespa players, but since they are very isolated (most only play proleague) it takes time. Please untwist your panties and chill, nobody forces anyone to use it. And no that is not what statistical methods are used for, plus this is "raw" stats, the interpretation is up to you, plus I already stated that currently the system is very shaky (due to the change from WoL to HotS). Plus this Terran surge is based a lot on HotS, of which we have very few matches. In regards to Last, please tell me which historical data that indicates that he is a beast of another world: http://aligulac.com/players/137-Last/results/ Don't publish ratings untill you improve this methodology. LIke what is the point of publishing heavily flawed statistics? This just making aligulac looks foolish, which is unfortunate. We have discussed this, if we should just "shut down" for 6 months untill we have more data, but then again, HotS is just a big patch to the game. When is it okay to publish ratings then? How much data is enough? How should we account for players we "know" are really good but haven't proven it (lots of Kespa players falls in this category)? What if they actually aren't and peoples bias shines through. Say what you will about the method, it is really strong in predicting matches, but strength lies in numbers, not in single brackets. But that being said, we are always trying to improve.
Someone like Innovation should never be at 2.5%. Apparently your statistics "forgets" that he was at a GSL semifinal not that long ago...
Why do you even do all this work? Who does it help if your average teamliquid guy can do a better job at predicting outcomes.
But I think the main problem is not the small database it self, but probably the technique. I think there are better statistical ways of predicting outcomes (which would take into account that your average kespa terran is pretty good, and that innovation has been in a GSL semifinal).
So untill you can come up with numbers that makes sense, I wouldn't reccomend posting these results, because bascially you lose credibility each time these numbers that makes 0 sense comes up. But well, its your time and you decide your self how you spent it.
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On March 17 2013 22:25 kafkaesque wrote:
I've just seen the Flash vs. Ret games and the domination is so sick to watch.
Is this the Flash you Broodwar guys revered?
I'm simply awed by the speed, precision and macro this guy has. I'll be having nightmares tonight, dreaming I'd be trying to keep up with that...
Nothing of that sort. You cannot compare Flash's reign of dominance n Brood War to that series alone.
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On March 17 2013 22:26 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 22:09 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 17 2013 22:05 bittman wrote:On March 17 2013 21:54 TAMinator wrote:On March 17 2013 21:48 Visas wrote:
pff all koreans again. This game can only revive to its old glory when they start inviting much less koreans for mlg imo. You can watch your second rate foreigner play SC2 on a live stream, most of us want to see the best of the best Define "most of us". I mean, I agree with you. I'd rather watch the best of the best, and its usually koreans. But there's no denying that foreigners bring in the numbers. Big time. So I imagine "most" sc2 viewers at some level feel the same as Visas. Lets see if an actual quarterfinal bracket with bo5 that all could be GSL finals being completely played in one day brings most viewers or a foreigner tournament. I would bet my ass that we will easily beat the numbers of yesterday You say that as if we had plenty of high profile foreigner-only tournaments. The only one was WCS and it's European qualifier set the viewer record.
I would hardly call that a record.
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On March 17 2013 22:26 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 22:09 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 17 2013 22:05 bittman wrote:On March 17 2013 21:54 TAMinator wrote:On March 17 2013 21:48 Visas wrote:
pff all koreans again. This game can only revive to its old glory when they start inviting much less koreans for mlg imo. You can watch your second rate foreigner play SC2 on a live stream, most of us want to see the best of the best Define "most of us". I mean, I agree with you. I'd rather watch the best of the best, and its usually koreans. But there's no denying that foreigners bring in the numbers. Big time. So I imagine "most" sc2 viewers at some level feel the same as Visas. Lets see if an actual quarterfinal bracket with bo5 that all could be GSL finals being completely played in one day brings most viewers or a foreigner tournament. I would bet my ass that we will easily beat the numbers of yesterday You say that as if we had plenty of high profile foreigner-only tournaments. The only one was WCS and it's European qualifier set the viewer record.
Guess that doesn't take into account that you can watch Starcraft on television in Korea. Doubt its anywhere near a viewer record.
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On March 17 2013 22:31 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 22:26 pmp10 wrote:On March 17 2013 22:09 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 17 2013 22:05 bittman wrote:On March 17 2013 21:54 TAMinator wrote:On March 17 2013 21:48 Visas wrote:
pff all koreans again. This game can only revive to its old glory when they start inviting much less koreans for mlg imo. You can watch your second rate foreigner play SC2 on a live stream, most of us want to see the best of the best Define "most of us". I mean, I agree with you. I'd rather watch the best of the best, and its usually koreans. But there's no denying that foreigners bring in the numbers. Big time. So I imagine "most" sc2 viewers at some level feel the same as Visas. Lets see if an actual quarterfinal bracket with bo5 that all could be GSL finals being completely played in one day brings most viewers or a foreigner tournament. I would bet my ass that we will easily beat the numbers of yesterday You say that as if we had plenty of high profile foreigner-only tournaments. The only one was WCS and it's European qualifier set the viewer record. Guess that doesn't take into account that you can watch Starcraft on television in Korea. Doubt its anywhere near a viewer record.
Not only that but we've had several events including MLG break 100k. It's not new territory and they'll remark, "but on one stream." Semantics.
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On March 17 2013 22:25 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 22:21 Inzan1ty wrote:On March 17 2013 22:14 LighT. wrote:On March 17 2013 22:10 edgeOut wrote:On March 17 2013 21:48 Visas wrote:
pff all koreans again. This game can only revive to its old glory when they start inviting much less koreans for mlg imo. At least foreigners can take one or two maps from Korean, that's better than BW days. I remember taking one map off a korean was considered a huge feat Foreigners have come a long way thats why some people are waiting for Warcraft 4 foreigners stand a better chance Koreans and chineses were shitting on foreigners in wc3, I don't think the trend will change in wc4
well first of all the scene was smaller compared to sc2, yet it was more exciting to see Deadman vs GoStop or Sweet vs Grubby imo than any foreigner in sc2 against the untouchable tier of players we got now.
really hope TL will feature this universe though, coming from wc3 iam one of those who would jump ship immediately once time arrives ^^
anyways lets not get too offtopic 
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On March 17 2013 22:18 StarStruck wrote:
Foreigners haven't really come a long way because they are totally different games. ._.
The xenophobia of this community shesh.
If I were winning and got booed I'd totally play off the crowd. "You guys can boo me all you want but at the end of the day that isn't going to stop me from coming on your soil and taking my share of the pie."
And less Koreans and more foreigners play this game compared to BW.
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On March 17 2013 22:34 Inzan1ty wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 22:25 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On March 17 2013 22:21 Inzan1ty wrote:On March 17 2013 22:14 LighT. wrote:On March 17 2013 22:10 edgeOut wrote:On March 17 2013 21:48 Visas wrote:
pff all koreans again. This game can only revive to its old glory when they start inviting much less koreans for mlg imo. At least foreigners can take one or two maps from Korean, that's better than BW days. I remember taking one map off a korean was considered a huge feat Foreigners have come a long way thats why some people are waiting for Warcraft 4 foreigners stand a better chance Koreans and chineses were shitting on foreigners in wc3, I don't think the trend will change in wc4 well first of all the scene was smaller compared to sc2, yet it was more exciting to see Deadman vs GoStop or Sweet vs Grubby imo than any foreigner in sc2 against the untouchable tier of players we got now. really hope TL will feature this universe though, coming from wc3 iam one of those who would jump ship immediately once time arrives ^^ anyways lets not get too offtopic
Just like every other fan. History repeats itself. That's exactly what happened with BW to WCIII Still the BW community exists.
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On March 17 2013 22:28 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 20:12 Grovbolle wrote:On March 17 2013 20:07 Hider wrote:On March 17 2013 19:49 Grovbolle wrote:On March 17 2013 19:39 Hider wrote:On March 17 2013 19:36 Grovbolle wrote: Win Top 2 Top 4 Top 8
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Life 36.71% 29.26% 22.72% 11.30%
PartinG 22.53% 20.74% 24.93% 31.80%
Bomber 16.91% 6.93% 57.97% 18.19%
Rain 14.34% 19.05% 36.02% 30.59%
Flash 3.28% 9.47% 19.06% 68.20%
INnoVation 2.89% 7.69% 20.00% 69.41%
MC 2.49% 4.28% 11.41% 81.81%
Last 0.84% 2.57% 7.89% 88.70% To those interested, I left out anything but the last players, please remember that this is mostly based on WoL and Kespa pros are a lot more "hidden" from the general population. Innovation 2%? This is completely useless. Statistical methods are supposed to help when quantifying stuff is to complicated to do subjectively. If you can't improve the methodology, aligulac is just a waste of time. Based on what? I agree that innovation is underrated in this, but we can't just magically up his rating. It will rise as his results improves. He loses to too many randoms in SPL. Plus we are still waiting for points to "transfer" to kespa players, but since they are very isolated (most only play proleague) it takes time. Please untwist your panties and chill, nobody forces anyone to use it. And no that is not what statistical methods are used for, plus this is "raw" stats, the interpretation is up to you, plus I already stated that currently the system is very shaky (due to the change from WoL to HotS). Plus this Terran surge is based a lot on HotS, of which we have very few matches. In regards to Last, please tell me which historical data that indicates that he is a beast of another world: http://aligulac.com/players/137-Last/results/ Don't publish ratings untill you improve this methodology. LIke what is the point of publishing heavily flawed statistics? This just making aligulac looks foolish, which is unfortunate. We have discussed this, if we should just "shut down" for 6 months untill we have more data, but then again, HotS is just a big patch to the game. When is it okay to publish ratings then? How much data is enough? How should we account for players we "know" are really good but haven't proven it (lots of Kespa players falls in this category)? What if they actually aren't and peoples bias shines through. Say what you will about the method, it is really strong in predicting matches, but strength lies in numbers, not in single brackets. But that being said, we are always trying to improve. Someone like Innovation should never be at 2.5%. Apparently your statistics "forgets" that he was at a GSL semifinal not that long ago... Why do you even do all this work? Who does it help if your average teamliquid guy can do a better job at predicting outcomes. But I think the main problem is not the small database it self, but probably the technique. I think there are better statistical ways of predicting outcomes (which would take into account that your average kespa terran is pretty good, and that innovation has been in a GSL semifinal). So untill you can come up with numbers that makes sense, I wouldn't reccomend posting these results, because bascially you lose credibility each time these numbers that makes 0 sense comes up. But well, its your time and you decide your self how you spent it.
The system predicts better than the current liquibet leader, so there's that.
You seem to consider a GSL semifinal something important (as do most), but we do not weigh games, we only care about results, as in wins/losses. Not circumstances.
I agree that innovation is underrated, the problem is/was the huge influx of kespa pros who gets very few games, but are obviously really good, so when innovation loses in SPL to some random unknown, it takes down his rating by a lot. We are still in a phase of smoothing out, and the more tournaments we get mixing kespa and the rest, the more "point transfer" the better. We can't however just decide that innovation gets extra points because people think he is good, he will rise according to performance.
On the topic of why we do this (I can feel your condescending tone), why we "waste" our time. I do it because I find it interesting, because I am studying Information Management and handling some of these issues and even just talking about them are quite useful. I also have done 3 statistics courses and I find it interesting to see the real life issues it brings.
And finally, predicting and posting is like a 20 second task.
Edit: And the database is the largest of it's kind. However there have only been less than 600 HotS matches so far. (Relevant matches).
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On March 17 2013 22:35 edgeOut wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 22:18 StarStruck wrote:
Foreigners haven't really come a long way because they are totally different games. ._.
The xenophobia of this community shesh.
If I were winning and got booed I'd totally play off the crowd. "You guys can boo me all you want but at the end of the day that isn't going to stop me from coming on your soil and taking my share of the pie." And less Koreans and more foreigners play this game than BW.
Yup, plus there are a few guys who could on occasion take a game from one of them back then too. As for the Koreans who do play this game. They're pretty good. 
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On March 17 2013 22:32 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 22:31 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 17 2013 22:26 pmp10 wrote:On March 17 2013 22:09 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 17 2013 22:05 bittman wrote:On March 17 2013 21:54 TAMinator wrote:On March 17 2013 21:48 Visas wrote:
pff all koreans again. This game can only revive to its old glory when they start inviting much less koreans for mlg imo. You can watch your second rate foreigner play SC2 on a live stream, most of us want to see the best of the best Define "most of us". I mean, I agree with you. I'd rather watch the best of the best, and its usually koreans. But there's no denying that foreigners bring in the numbers. Big time. So I imagine "most" sc2 viewers at some level feel the same as Visas. Lets see if an actual quarterfinal bracket with bo5 that all could be GSL finals being completely played in one day brings most viewers or a foreigner tournament. I would bet my ass that we will easily beat the numbers of yesterday You say that as if we had plenty of high profile foreigner-only tournaments. The only one was WCS and it's European qualifier set the viewer record. Guess that doesn't take into account that you can watch Starcraft on television in Korea. Doubt its anywhere near a viewer record. Not only that but we've had several events including MLG break 100k. It's not new territory and they'll remark, "but on one stream." Semantics.
Some tournaments have also made their way into Swedish TV and looking for number of unique viewers rather than open browser windows is not a matter of semantics.
The facts are that when idra shows up in MLG qualifiers almost 10k viewers materializes from thin air and that is an audience that has been laregely alienated by tournament organizers refusal to protect local scenes.
This thread is the best example as instead of having a giant EU vs. NA fight with 'surrender monkey' and 'hand-egg' being thrown everywhere all that we have left to spark emotion is balance whining.
The 'foreigner underdogs' storyline kept people watching for a very long time but if those results continue it's potential is pretty much spent.
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On March 17 2013 21:55 gamerdude12345 wrote:
Also, I heard that there was booing in the crowd last night. Did they ever get kicked out or did they just stop? Seems super BM to actually boo a player.
Here is what happened :
There was a significant delay before Flash vs Ret (like really long). So they had various breaks etc. During the downtime, Anna had Suppy for an interview on the stage as he was defeated in the previous round by Ret. He said that he had the utmost respect for Flash, obviously, but that he was cheering for Ret. Because he really liked Ret and felt like he was doing really well recently and could use the support going against Flash. He also encouraged the crowd to root and cheer for Ret who was the last (or one of the last can't remember) foreigner and clearly the underdog.
It was actually really nice and respectful from him considering he was just defeated by Ret. But the crowd took it to another level...
During the first match, they started cheering for Ret eveytime he did anything, and I mean anything. Creep tumor ? Cheers. Zergling going across the map ? Cheer. Killing a unit ? Crazy, mad cheers.
The problem is : they also started booing everytime Flash did anything. And they went mad when he used his medivacs. It felt pretty agressive and out of place. There was several reasons : the huge downtime before the game, Suppy telling them to root for Ret, the medivac's hate... but in the end, it felt really xenophobic and out of place (booing Flash of all people ?).
Ret and Flash, on the other hand played really standard, macro games. I don't know if this is my imagination but it felt really respectful : Ret going early hatch, Flash scouting that and going early CC every game, if I remember correctly. Flash outclassed Ret with a solid, nearly perfect macro style. And Ret seems really solid too (imo) despite going 3-0. I really liked the game, and would recommend them if you like no-gimmick, no bullshit, straight up macro games.
When second game started, the crowd tried to boo Flash like in game 1 but Day9 told them something along the lines : Don't boo Flash, guys, he's awesome. And it kinda stopped.
Afterward, it felt really weird and people tried to rationnalize it by saying that the crowd booed the medivac... but, to me at least, it felt really insulting and out of place. And more than anything, ignorant of who Flash is. Now go watch the games, and make your own opinion :p
Edit : If you want more details / opinions from different people, someone made a blog post about it here : http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=403402
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damn @ all of the people who whine about foreigners losing all the time, if you lose against the best then its obvious you have some leaks in your game and is probably bad at something! I realised recently that I have a huge amount of leaks in online poker without me realising it and I really sucked at the game and caused me to lose a lot of money. There is a reason you see the top players final table constantly and winning in almost every session. Foreginer vs Koreans is like "luck" in poker since many people whine about those stuff equally.
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EPT
