EPTOn August 13 2012 01:10 Roxor9999 wrote:
Well i'll be back when the beta launches.
Well i'll be back when the beta launches.
In HotS the matchup may look even worse.
22 range has the potential to completely reverse the turtling roles.
1000€ GIGABYTE NVIDIA Invitational #3 - Page 15
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pmp10
3285 Posts
In HotS the matchup may look even worse. 22 range has the potential to completely reverse the turtling roles. | ||
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Day9notdead
Russian Federation501 Posts
well, there were quite a few games in the past where both toss and zerg were floating a ton of resources with map split in half. And it did not necessarily end up with zerg winning. Say, the last one which comes to my mind, MC vs Ret on daybreak, don't remember the tourney exactly.. the point is the map was split, but MC just crushed Ret's "ultimate end game army" by being smart about the way he engages and having the right army composition himself.. | ||
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hgzyhff
China10 Posts
forGG defwin？ | ||
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DertoQq
France906 Posts
On August 13 2012 00:59 Iberville wrote: Grubby threw this game away by camping on his base and underestimating his 20 minute advantage. He got cocky afterwards thinking he could starve his opponent. He made poor decisions and deserved the loss. I guess he should have jump into the spines and infestors then ! Everyone is saying that grubby did some huge mistake (to lose a game 120 vs 200 supply as protoss it must be really huge), but no one is actually saying what he should have done. | ||
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SiroKO
France721 Posts
On August 13 2012 01:17 Day9notdead wrote: well, there were quite a few games in the past where both toss and zerg were floating a ton of resources with map split in half. And it did not necessarily end up with zerg winning. Say, the last one which comes to my mind, MC vs Ret on daybreak, don't remember the tourney exactly.. the point is the map was split, but MC just crushed Ret's "ultimate end game army" by being smart about the way he engages and having the right army composition himself.. You mean, Ret attacking and mispositionning his blords twice. | ||
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ramask2
Thailand1024 Posts
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Derrida
2885 Posts
On August 13 2012 01:18 ramask2 wrote: Final match is postponed due to Coca apparently falling asleep. *Sigh* hahahahahah | ||
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Arachne
South Africa426 Posts
Perspective. Miya played really well to get to the point where he could win. Grubby also played really weel up until about the time Khaldor's stream crashed. When i switched to another stream, grubby had lost an engagement and it went down hill from there. It looks like GRubby cracked 1st at 80 minutes of game time. HOWEVER. The fact that the zerg was able to lose that much resources early, and sit behind spines until he maxed while mining off of no more than 2 bases while heavily upgrading seems a tad  , won't lie. Grubby had 200/200 and 7k 4k min/gas, vs 200/200 min gas and 130 pop from miya and he couldnt actually attack into it, seems for the MU, won't lie.The way Miya was able to build a believable defense behind a 'static' defense wall while teching and expanding is something toss cannot do, nor does toss have an easy and believable way of cracking that wall thru the units the Toss arsenal posseses. Collosus, Carriers and Voidrays are the only real way for Toss to do it, and all 3 are countered by corruptors, infestors and/or broodlords. Whereas mass cannons supported by HT's, will die to infested terrans/broodlords really easiliy. Terran has siege tanks and BC'sto break walls, zerg has infested terrans/brooodlords. Toss has collo and Carriers, one of which is outranged by the wall defense and the other with a unit that costs minerals to replace, despite being the most expensive unit in the toss arsenal . | ||
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GumBa
United Kingdom31935 Posts
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Zambrah
United States7240 Posts
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Derrida
2885 Posts
On August 13 2012 01:33 GumBa wrote: So to when has it been delayed to? I'm assuming tomorrow as it's past midnight in Korea. | ||
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Arachne
South Africa426 Posts
It hasn't been set yet. | ||
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Day9notdead
Russian Federation501 Posts
On August 13 2012 01:18 SiroKO wrote: You mean, Ret attacking and mispositionning his blords twice. Ok, so you are saying that big zvp battles should be won by protoss while zerg does not make a single mistake? Or, let's just say players should not make mistakes at all ever and games could still be won. I think the one who makes less mistakes wins, simple as that. In this game Grubby wasted too many resources.. that's why he lost really | ||
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SiroKO
France721 Posts
On August 13 2012 01:57 Day9notdead wrote: Ok, so you are saying that big zvp battles should be won by protoss while zerg does not make a single mistake? Or, let's just say players should not make mistakes at all ever and games could still be won. I think the one who makes less mistakes wins, simple as that. In this game Grubby wasted too many resources.. that's why he lost really I think the exchange should be even. If a players gets an auto-win when no serious mistake is made, then there is a clear balance issue. Even though this doesn't affect my Master league games, I see this as a huge problem in high level ZvP. | ||
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DertoQq
France906 Posts
On August 13 2012 01:33 Zambrah wrote: Anyone else think about how that last match would have gone with a Terran? Think we might've seen Auto-Turret vs. Infested Terran battles deciding the game, lol. Terran would have won when it was 200vs120 supply, easily : D | ||
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Lennient
497 Posts
And balance whining can only be discussed when top players play ( I mean code S players ) | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On August 13 2012 01:24 Arachne wrote: Just something I want to add into the balance whine going on. Perspective. Miya played really well to get to the point where he could win. Grubby also played really weel up until about the time Khaldor's stream crashed. When i switched to another stream, grubby had lost an engagement and it went down hill from there. It looks like GRubby cracked 1st at 80 minutes of game time. HOWEVER. The fact that the zerg was able to lose that much resources early, and sit behind spines until he maxed while mining off of no more than 2 bases while heavily upgrading seems a tad , won't lie. Grubby had 200/200 and 7k 4k min/gas, vs 200/200 min gas and 130 pop from miya and he couldnt actually attack into it, seems for the MU, won't lie.The way Miya was able to build a believable defense behind a 'static' defense wall while teching and expanding is something toss cannot do, nor does toss have an easy and believable way of cracking that wall thru the units the Toss arsenal posseses. Collosus, Carriers and Voidrays are the only real way for Toss to do it, and all 3 are countered by corruptors, infestors and/or broodlords. Whereas mass cannons supported by HT's, will die to infested terrans/broodlords really easiliy. Terran has siege tanks and BC'sto break walls, zerg has infested terrans/brooodlords. Toss has collo and Carriers, one of which is outranged by the wall defense and the other with a unit that costs minerals to replace, despite being the most expensive unit in the toss arsenal .In my opinion, had Grubby not passively transitioned to carrier, but instead relentlessly attacked with gateway/robo tech, Miya would not have been able to build up his static defense to a point where it cannot be broken as we have seen. But well, could have, should have, would have. edit: What is to learn from this is that protoss cannot really sit back and tech / macro up after getting an early game lead like that, at least not for so long the way Grubby did it. Should the zerg get his perfect incredibly cost efficient defenses up (broodlord and infestor behind a wall of spines and spores), they can turtle the protoss to death. | ||
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Arachne
South Africa426 Posts
I think you missed the masses of spine crawlers that were built along the ramp of the 2 bases. The only real chance grubby had of breaking that with no risk was to tech to carriers. Also, off 3 bases, if Miya had carried on going mutalisks and Grubby had transitioned out of blink stalkers, there could have been a problem. If grubby had decided to attack into the spine crawlers and miya was freeing up supply for infestor ling (remember he lost his mutalisks stupidly), all those stalkers would have been lost with no real hope of coming back. With zerg's ability to transition into 21 units of any type (or 42 lings) with just one inject cycle, its not 100% easy to creak down a spinecrawler wall with stalkers, especially attacking up a ramp into 7+ spines with armoured units. Spines scare me far more tan cannons or bunkers do as a Protoss, as I know at least bunkers cant be repaired without scv's, and cannons are pretty much useless as a major deterent against attack. Spines on the other hand do hurt. And lots of them, with mutalisk back up, can decimate any toss force i've tried to put together against them without decent numbers of zealots, immortals or colossus. | ||
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Day9notdead
Russian Federation501 Posts
On August 13 2012 02:02 SiroKO wrote: I think the exchange should be even. If a players gets an auto-win when no serious mistake is made, then there is a clear balance issue. Even though this doesn't affect my Master league games, I see this as a huge problem in high level ZvP. Well, I think it's obvious Grubby didn't do enough in that match, and what he did wasn't good enough. So we have one player playing almost perfectly from the bad position he was put in, that is Miya, and the other one who just didn't play well.. No surprise the former player won. Now, if we talk about details: even after Grubby missed all those timings, he still had all time in the world to get the right army composition. Which could be mass carriers plus mothership plus some templars.I think everyone agrees such army has a pretty damn good shot at killing whatever Miya had. It all comes down to engagements, positioning but..still it's not like you can't crack a starving zerg with it, or at least trade cost efficiently. However, he never really massed that huge air ball. Instead he was making and wasting pretty much for nothing dts, zealots, archons, voidrays... | ||
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TheAnarchy
Chile1105 Posts
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