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On July 30 2012 01:16 Fleuria wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 00:17 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On July 29 2012 17:30 SiroKO wrote:On July 29 2012 17:20 Squeegy wrote:On July 29 2012 15:10 Tchado wrote:On July 29 2012 15:03 0neder wrote:On July 29 2012 15:00 Tchado wrote:On July 29 2012 14:59 Xkalibert wrote:
Easy wins for non-Kespa players, Kespa players need more time. agreed , the elephant is soooooo dead...... So when former Kespa players who switched a year or two ago beat current Kespa players who just barely switched, the elephant is dead? I don't think so. the elephant assumed that any kespa player who is of high level , once he switches to sc2 he will dominate immediately ..... does this look like immediate domination ? the elephant is dead. Not immediately. The article spoke of something around a month. Why? Because back then people just popped out of nowhere and dominated. The level of play was much lower than it is now. That is why the elephant "theory" did not claim that Kespa players could pull it off in the future. Now that the skill level is significantly higher, it will take them longer. However, we are already seeing them becoming competetive, and that is after only a couple of months, when they aren't even fully dedicated to the game. The elephant is alive and well. It's already been glaringly obvious that the best BW players, Kespa and non-Kespa, weren't becoming the best SC2 players. This has hold true for War3 as well, Stephano was a semi-pro back then. Since this premisse was one of the elephant paradigm (ie "bw code A" and particulary flash jaedong bisu dominating the scene right when they switch since most GSL players weren't code A), we can consider the elephant thread entirely irrelevant. What? 1)Allmost every the top Korean s2 players were former BW pro's 2) The article about the elephant never said the second they switched they would pwn. 3) The fact that 3-4 months in while still having to practice BW Kespa pro's are already taking b03 series off code A level players(Some Code S level players too)is fucking incredible So in short you're pretty much wrong on every single level. The Elephants are marching along just fine  not really, the younger players that didn't really play bw are rolling most of the players in general in sc2 as they have quicker hands and the better thinking hat, alot of the older kespa players will just drop off, few of the younger bw pro's will do well.# also domination will never happen in sc2 because their is always a new strat that will knock x dominant player out.
Such a short post, but I don't know where to begin.
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No big surprise in this matches
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On July 30 2012 01:16 Fleuria wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 00:17 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On July 29 2012 17:30 SiroKO wrote:On July 29 2012 17:20 Squeegy wrote:On July 29 2012 15:10 Tchado wrote:On July 29 2012 15:03 0neder wrote:On July 29 2012 15:00 Tchado wrote:On July 29 2012 14:59 Xkalibert wrote:
Easy wins for non-Kespa players, Kespa players need more time. agreed , the elephant is soooooo dead...... So when former Kespa players who switched a year or two ago beat current Kespa players who just barely switched, the elephant is dead? I don't think so. the elephant assumed that any kespa player who is of high level , once he switches to sc2 he will dominate immediately ..... does this look like immediate domination ? the elephant is dead. Not immediately. The article spoke of something around a month. Why? Because back then people just popped out of nowhere and dominated. The level of play was much lower than it is now. That is why the elephant "theory" did not claim that Kespa players could pull it off in the future. Now that the skill level is significantly higher, it will take them longer. However, we are already seeing them becoming competetive, and that is after only a couple of months, when they aren't even fully dedicated to the game. The elephant is alive and well. It's already been glaringly obvious that the best BW players, Kespa and non-Kespa, weren't becoming the best SC2 players. This has hold true for War3 as well, Stephano was a semi-pro back then. Since this premisse was one of the elephant paradigm (ie "bw code A" and particulary flash jaedong bisu dominating the scene right when they switch since most GSL players weren't code A), we can consider the elephant thread entirely irrelevant. What? 1)Allmost every the top Korean s2 players were former BW pro's 2) The article about the elephant never said the second they switched they would pwn. 3) The fact that 3-4 months in while still having to practice BW Kespa pro's are already taking b03 series off code A level players(Some Code S level players too)is fucking incredible So in short you're pretty much wrong on every single level. The Elephants are marching along just fine not really, the younger players that didn't really play bw are rolling most of the players in general in sc2 as they have quicker hands and the better thinking hat, alot of the older kespa players will just drop off, few of the younger bw pro's will do well.# also domination will never happen in sc2 because their is always a new strat that will knock x dominant player out.
The younger players who didn't play BW are rolling the old BW pro's eh? So those youngins are the ones that are winning 99% of all GSL titles? Oh wait.... Nestea, MVP, MC, MMA, MKP, -Insert Top Sc2 player here-. all come from BW. Your entire post is invalid.
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On July 30 2012 01:03 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 00:22 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2012 00:03 FairForever wrote:On July 29 2012 23:00 Ragnar1 wrote:
What he's saying is that BW players can become the best at SC2, but it's not necessarily going to be the best BW players who will be best at SC2 - the Elephant article says that people like Flash/Bisu/Fanta will dominate immediately (or close to immediately) - instead, we're seeing some very strong play from KeSPA players, but not the ones you'd expect (eg. Reality).
Can you point out where it says they will dominate to immediately or close to immediately? The only reference I can find is a quote that references something Jinro said "Our own Jinro states that if Flash could be persuaded to switch to SC2, he "could probably take games from anyone within a week, for TvT at least.” " Hot_Bid's quote? It doesn't say it explicitly but the article seems to imply, as evidenced by Hot_Bid's reaction to the comments, that top level BW pros will come and dominate the scene pretty quickly because of their work ethic and mechanics. It is also understood as such by most who discuss the article. The article was written when SC2 was less figured out, Korean SC2 progamers still had foreigner-like training methods (they were opposed to BW-like trainingschedules), and assuming KeSPA progamers made a clear-cut transition to SC2 at that time. It's impossible to determine whether the author was right since a vast number of SC2 progamers has adopted BW training methods and KeSPA players' transition has been dragging for months with their practice divided between BW and SC2. I don't think it is impossible to determine. We saw people pop into the scene from almost nowhere and do well at the time. We saw nobodies become kings. We saw atrocious play even at the highest level. But what was the point of the article? It sure wasn't that Flash could dominate in a month after he switches. That was an implication of the point (at the time). The point was that the scene was missing its brightest stars and therefore the competition was a farce (at the time). If Kespa players end up dominating, even if it takes a year or two, what do you think that tells us about the time before their arrival?
The elephant thread was written in may, the GSL Code S at the time had: Nestea, Losira, Top, Nada, Sc, Polt, Clide, Supernova, Genius, Byun, MC, Zenio, San among others. There were also some 'awful' players like HongUn and Inca, but honestly the level of play wasn't that terrible. It got better, for sure, but a lot of the elephant thread was about how players like Nestea and MC are randoms that would lose to any competent B-teamer. And Flash was so far beyond those players that "within weeks" he would be competitive. In fact, it's been over three months now and Flash isn't even one of the better SC2 players among the KeSPA ones and so far only a few KeSPA players have been able to take games off GSL players, yet never convincingly so. (expected, since anyone can take games off anyone)
I do have full confidence in Flash, but the level of the competition in SC2 certainly is at a level where it will take him maybe almost a year to become one of the best. Certainly not "a farce", not now and also not 12 months ago.
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On July 30 2012 01:51 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 01:03 Squeegy wrote:On July 30 2012 00:22 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2012 00:03 FairForever wrote:On July 29 2012 23:00 Ragnar1 wrote:
What he's saying is that BW players can become the best at SC2, but it's not necessarily going to be the best BW players who will be best at SC2 - the Elephant article says that people like Flash/Bisu/Fanta will dominate immediately (or close to immediately) - instead, we're seeing some very strong play from KeSPA players, but not the ones you'd expect (eg. Reality).
Can you point out where it says they will dominate to immediately or close to immediately? The only reference I can find is a quote that references something Jinro said "Our own Jinro states that if Flash could be persuaded to switch to SC2, he "could probably take games from anyone within a week, for TvT at least.” " Hot_Bid's quote? It doesn't say it explicitly but the article seems to imply, as evidenced by Hot_Bid's reaction to the comments, that top level BW pros will come and dominate the scene pretty quickly because of their work ethic and mechanics. It is also understood as such by most who discuss the article. The article was written when SC2 was less figured out, Korean SC2 progamers still had foreigner-like training methods (they were opposed to BW-like trainingschedules), and assuming KeSPA progamers made a clear-cut transition to SC2 at that time. It's impossible to determine whether the author was right since a vast number of SC2 progamers has adopted BW training methods and KeSPA players' transition has been dragging for months with their practice divided between BW and SC2. I don't think it is impossible to determine. We saw people pop into the scene from almost nowhere and do well at the time. We saw nobodies become kings. We saw atrocious play even at the highest level. But what was the point of the article? It sure wasn't that Flash could dominate in a month after he switches. That was an implication of the point (at the time). The point was that the scene was missing its brightest stars and therefore the competition was a farce (at the time). If Kespa players end up dominating, even if it takes a year or two, what do you think that tells us about the time before their arrival? The elephant thread was written in may, the GSL Code S at the time had: Nestea, Losira, Top, Nada, Sc, Polt, Clide, Supernova, Genius, Byun, MC, Zenio, San among others. There were also some 'awful' players like HongUn and Inca, but honestly the level of play wasn't that terrible. It got better, for sure, but a lot of the elephant thread was about how players like Nestea and MC are randoms that would lose to any competent B-teamer. And Flash was so far beyond those players that "within weeks" he would be competitive. In fact, it's been over three months now and Flash isn't even one of the better SC2 players among the KeSPA ones and so far only a few KeSPA players have been able to take games off GSL players, yet never convincingly so. (expected, since anyone can take games off anyone) I do have full confidence in Flash, but the level of the competition in SC2 certainly is at a level where it will take him maybe almost a year to become one of the best. Certainly not "a farce", not now and also not 12 months ago.
But no one has claimed that the scene is a farce now and I see you arguing against that. Not so much against that it was a farce back then. Since the competition is not a farce now, to be this good that fast is nothing but impressive.
I also have to point out that Flash, I dare say, according to most is one of the better Kespa players. And If I were to count, there'd probably be at least 20 cases of Kespa taking out a GSL player. Considering the limited amount of Kespa-GSL matches, it seems like many to me. Moreover, "convincingly" is nothing but a weasel word.
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On July 30 2012 02:50 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 01:51 Grumbels wrote:On July 30 2012 01:03 Squeegy wrote:On July 30 2012 00:22 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2012 00:03 FairForever wrote:On July 29 2012 23:00 Ragnar1 wrote:
What he's saying is that BW players can become the best at SC2, but it's not necessarily going to be the best BW players who will be best at SC2 - the Elephant article says that people like Flash/Bisu/Fanta will dominate immediately (or close to immediately) - instead, we're seeing some very strong play from KeSPA players, but not the ones you'd expect (eg. Reality).
Can you point out where it says they will dominate to immediately or close to immediately? The only reference I can find is a quote that references something Jinro said "Our own Jinro states that if Flash could be persuaded to switch to SC2, he "could probably take games from anyone within a week, for TvT at least.” " Hot_Bid's quote? It doesn't say it explicitly but the article seems to imply, as evidenced by Hot_Bid's reaction to the comments, that top level BW pros will come and dominate the scene pretty quickly because of their work ethic and mechanics. It is also understood as such by most who discuss the article. The article was written when SC2 was less figured out, Korean SC2 progamers still had foreigner-like training methods (they were opposed to BW-like trainingschedules), and assuming KeSPA progamers made a clear-cut transition to SC2 at that time. It's impossible to determine whether the author was right since a vast number of SC2 progamers has adopted BW training methods and KeSPA players' transition has been dragging for months with their practice divided between BW and SC2. I don't think it is impossible to determine. We saw people pop into the scene from almost nowhere and do well at the time. We saw nobodies become kings. We saw atrocious play even at the highest level. But what was the point of the article? It sure wasn't that Flash could dominate in a month after he switches. That was an implication of the point (at the time). The point was that the scene was missing its brightest stars and therefore the competition was a farce (at the time). If Kespa players end up dominating, even if it takes a year or two, what do you think that tells us about the time before their arrival? The elephant thread was written in may, the GSL Code S at the time had: Nestea, Losira, Top, Nada, Sc, Polt, Clide, Supernova, Genius, Byun, MC, Zenio, San among others. There were also some 'awful' players like HongUn and Inca, but honestly the level of play wasn't that terrible. It got better, for sure, but a lot of the elephant thread was about how players like Nestea and MC are randoms that would lose to any competent B-teamer. And Flash was so far beyond those players that "within weeks" he would be competitive. In fact, it's been over three months now and Flash isn't even one of the better SC2 players among the KeSPA ones and so far only a few KeSPA players have been able to take games off GSL players, yet never convincingly so. (expected, since anyone can take games off anyone) I do have full confidence in Flash, but the level of the competition in SC2 certainly is at a level where it will take him maybe almost a year to become one of the best. Certainly not "a farce", not now and also not 12 months ago. But no one has claimed that the scene is a farce now and I see you arguing against that. Not so much against that it was a farce back then. Since the competition is not a farce now, to be this good that fast is nothing but impressive. I also have to point out that Flash, I dare say, according to most is one of the better Kespa players. And If I were to count, there'd probably be at least 20 cases of Kespa taking out a GSL player. Considering the limited amount of Kespa-GSL matches, it seems like many to me. Moreover, "convincingly" is nothing but a weasel word.
convincingly = not PvP and not a game like Reality vs Symbol where Symbol played super awful. And if many of the same players are at the top both now and 12 months ago, how can it have been a farce back then when it isn't now according to you?
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Soulkey haven't achieved much since the KesPA players agreed that he is the best in SC2 among them. I think he just had really bad luck: MMA then Taeja...what is he supposed to do lol
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On July 30 2012 04:34 Ritchie wrote:
Soulkey haven't achieved much since the KesPA players agreed that he is the best in SC2 among them. I think he just had really bad luck: MMA then Taeja...what is he supposed to do lol
Even in proleague he hasn't done that great though. I would say effort is better
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On July 30 2012 03:54 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 02:50 Squeegy wrote:On July 30 2012 01:51 Grumbels wrote:On July 30 2012 01:03 Squeegy wrote:On July 30 2012 00:22 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2012 00:03 FairForever wrote:On July 29 2012 23:00 Ragnar1 wrote:
What he's saying is that BW players can become the best at SC2, but it's not necessarily going to be the best BW players who will be best at SC2 - the Elephant article says that people like Flash/Bisu/Fanta will dominate immediately (or close to immediately) - instead, we're seeing some very strong play from KeSPA players, but not the ones you'd expect (eg. Reality).
Can you point out where it says they will dominate to immediately or close to immediately? The only reference I can find is a quote that references something Jinro said "Our own Jinro states that if Flash could be persuaded to switch to SC2, he "could probably take games from anyone within a week, for TvT at least.” " Hot_Bid's quote? It doesn't say it explicitly but the article seems to imply, as evidenced by Hot_Bid's reaction to the comments, that top level BW pros will come and dominate the scene pretty quickly because of their work ethic and mechanics. It is also understood as such by most who discuss the article. The article was written when SC2 was less figured out, Korean SC2 progamers still had foreigner-like training methods (they were opposed to BW-like trainingschedules), and assuming KeSPA progamers made a clear-cut transition to SC2 at that time. It's impossible to determine whether the author was right since a vast number of SC2 progamers has adopted BW training methods and KeSPA players' transition has been dragging for months with their practice divided between BW and SC2. I don't think it is impossible to determine. We saw people pop into the scene from almost nowhere and do well at the time. We saw nobodies become kings. We saw atrocious play even at the highest level. But what was the point of the article? It sure wasn't that Flash could dominate in a month after he switches. That was an implication of the point (at the time). The point was that the scene was missing its brightest stars and therefore the competition was a farce (at the time). If Kespa players end up dominating, even if it takes a year or two, what do you think that tells us about the time before their arrival? The elephant thread was written in may, the GSL Code S at the time had: Nestea, Losira, Top, Nada, Sc, Polt, Clide, Supernova, Genius, Byun, MC, Zenio, San among others. There were also some 'awful' players like HongUn and Inca, but honestly the level of play wasn't that terrible. It got better, for sure, but a lot of the elephant thread was about how players like Nestea and MC are randoms that would lose to any competent B-teamer. And Flash was so far beyond those players that "within weeks" he would be competitive. In fact, it's been over three months now and Flash isn't even one of the better SC2 players among the KeSPA ones and so far only a few KeSPA players have been able to take games off GSL players, yet never convincingly so. (expected, since anyone can take games off anyone) I do have full confidence in Flash, but the level of the competition in SC2 certainly is at a level where it will take him maybe almost a year to become one of the best. Certainly not "a farce", not now and also not 12 months ago. But no one has claimed that the scene is a farce now and I see you arguing against that. Not so much against that it was a farce back then. Since the competition is not a farce now, to be this good that fast is nothing but impressive. I also have to point out that Flash, I dare say, according to most is one of the better Kespa players. And If I were to count, there'd probably be at least 20 cases of Kespa taking out a GSL player. Considering the limited amount of Kespa-GSL matches, it seems like many to me. Moreover, "convincingly" is nothing but a weasel word. convincingly = not PvP and not a game like Reality vs Symbol where Symbol played super awful. And if many of the same players are at the top both now and 12 months ago, how can it have been a farce back then when it isn't now according to you?
So your explanation is that out of all the games that Kespa players won, it was either the GSL players playing poorly or PvP? There are probably at least 20 Kespa players that have defeated GSL players. So the amount of matches is measured in the dozens.
Interesting disparity here too: The 20 or so Kespa players count to you as few. But the 7 GSL players that were in Code S in May and who are in Code S now count as many.
Weasel words.
Because they started playing better. The skill level rose signficantly. New players joined in.
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On July 30 2012 01:16 Fleuria wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 00:17 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On July 29 2012 17:30 SiroKO wrote:On July 29 2012 17:20 Squeegy wrote:On July 29 2012 15:10 Tchado wrote:On July 29 2012 15:03 0neder wrote:On July 29 2012 15:00 Tchado wrote:On July 29 2012 14:59 Xkalibert wrote:
Easy wins for non-Kespa players, Kespa players need more time. agreed , the elephant is soooooo dead...... So when former Kespa players who switched a year or two ago beat current Kespa players who just barely switched, the elephant is dead? I don't think so. the elephant assumed that any kespa player who is of high level , once he switches to sc2 he will dominate immediately ..... does this look like immediate domination ? the elephant is dead. Not immediately. The article spoke of something around a month. Why? Because back then people just popped out of nowhere and dominated. The level of play was much lower than it is now. That is why the elephant "theory" did not claim that Kespa players could pull it off in the future. Now that the skill level is significantly higher, it will take them longer. However, we are already seeing them becoming competetive, and that is after only a couple of months, when they aren't even fully dedicated to the game. The elephant is alive and well. It's already been glaringly obvious that the best BW players, Kespa and non-Kespa, weren't becoming the best SC2 players. This has hold true for War3 as well, Stephano was a semi-pro back then. Since this premisse was one of the elephant paradigm (ie "bw code A" and particulary flash jaedong bisu dominating the scene right when they switch since most GSL players weren't code A), we can consider the elephant thread entirely irrelevant. What? 1)Allmost every the top Korean s2 players were former BW pro's 2) The article about the elephant never said the second they switched they would pwn. 3) The fact that 3-4 months in while still having to practice BW Kespa pro's are already taking b03 series off code A level players(Some Code S level players too)is fucking incredible So in short you're pretty much wrong on every single level. The Elephants are marching along just fine not really, the younger players that didn't really play bw are rolling most of the players in general in sc2 as they have quicker hands and the better thinking hat, alot of the older kespa players will just drop off, few of the younger bw pro's will do well.# also domination will never happen in sc2 because their is always a new strat that will knock x dominant player out.
Take out patching and expansions and we would see stagnation happen quite quickly in SC2. The game doesn't have the strategic depth of something like chess or go where there are hundreds of possible variations and outcomes that all can work.
Those rising pros were all amateur BW players who likely would have made the transition to professional BW had SC2 not came out. Leerock, Jjakji and DRG are just a few to name. Players like Nestea have shown in SC2 one can be older and still have sucess so I'm not worried for Flash and Jaedong and other top players who are barely over 20.
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so as few as 4 or as many as 6 kespa players are going to get through to the semis? At this rate, I hope the kespa players don't get too discouraged by these results and start thinking about quitting altogether.
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On July 30 2012 06:05 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 03:54 Grumbels wrote:On July 30 2012 02:50 Squeegy wrote:On July 30 2012 01:51 Grumbels wrote:On July 30 2012 01:03 Squeegy wrote:On July 30 2012 00:22 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2012 00:03 FairForever wrote:On July 29 2012 23:00 Ragnar1 wrote:
What he's saying is that BW players can become the best at SC2, but it's not necessarily going to be the best BW players who will be best at SC2 - the Elephant article says that people like Flash/Bisu/Fanta will dominate immediately (or close to immediately) - instead, we're seeing some very strong play from KeSPA players, but not the ones you'd expect (eg. Reality).
Can you point out where it says they will dominate to immediately or close to immediately? The only reference I can find is a quote that references something Jinro said "Our own Jinro states that if Flash could be persuaded to switch to SC2, he "could probably take games from anyone within a week, for TvT at least.” " Hot_Bid's quote? It doesn't say it explicitly but the article seems to imply, as evidenced by Hot_Bid's reaction to the comments, that top level BW pros will come and dominate the scene pretty quickly because of their work ethic and mechanics. It is also understood as such by most who discuss the article. The article was written when SC2 was less figured out, Korean SC2 progamers still had foreigner-like training methods (they were opposed to BW-like trainingschedules), and assuming KeSPA progamers made a clear-cut transition to SC2 at that time. It's impossible to determine whether the author was right since a vast number of SC2 progamers has adopted BW training methods and KeSPA players' transition has been dragging for months with their practice divided between BW and SC2. I don't think it is impossible to determine. We saw people pop into the scene from almost nowhere and do well at the time. We saw nobodies become kings. We saw atrocious play even at the highest level. But what was the point of the article? It sure wasn't that Flash could dominate in a month after he switches. That was an implication of the point (at the time). The point was that the scene was missing its brightest stars and therefore the competition was a farce (at the time). If Kespa players end up dominating, even if it takes a year or two, what do you think that tells us about the time before their arrival? The elephant thread was written in may, the GSL Code S at the time had: Nestea, Losira, Top, Nada, Sc, Polt, Clide, Supernova, Genius, Byun, MC, Zenio, San among others. There were also some 'awful' players like HongUn and Inca, but honestly the level of play wasn't that terrible. It got better, for sure, but a lot of the elephant thread was about how players like Nestea and MC are randoms that would lose to any competent B-teamer. And Flash was so far beyond those players that "within weeks" he would be competitive. In fact, it's been over three months now and Flash isn't even one of the better SC2 players among the KeSPA ones and so far only a few KeSPA players have been able to take games off GSL players, yet never convincingly so. (expected, since anyone can take games off anyone) I do have full confidence in Flash, but the level of the competition in SC2 certainly is at a level where it will take him maybe almost a year to become one of the best. Certainly not "a farce", not now and also not 12 months ago. But no one has claimed that the scene is a farce now and I see you arguing against that. Not so much against that it was a farce back then. Since the competition is not a farce now, to be this good that fast is nothing but impressive. I also have to point out that Flash, I dare say, according to most is one of the better Kespa players. And If I were to count, there'd probably be at least 20 cases of Kespa taking out a GSL player. Considering the limited amount of Kespa-GSL matches, it seems like many to me. Moreover, "convincingly" is nothing but a weasel word. convincingly = not PvP and not a game like Reality vs Symbol where Symbol played super awful. And if many of the same players are at the top both now and 12 months ago, how can it have been a farce back then when it isn't now according to you? So your explanation is that out of all the games that Kespa players won, it was either the GSL players playing poorly or PvP? There are probably at least 20 Kespa players that have defeated GSL players. So the amount of matches is measured in the dozens. Interesting disparity here too: The 20 or so Kespa players count to you as few. But the 7 GSL players that were in Code S in May and who are in Code S now count as many. Weasel words. Because they started playing better. The skill level rose signficantly. New players joined in.
The number of logical fallacies in your post is quite astounding.
"Out of all the games..."
Would you mind posting the exact official Kespa win ratio against GSL code A and code S players ?
That would be the first step for a logical and healthy discussion.
For your own info, finale is not part of code A.
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On July 30 2012 06:17 amazingoopah wrote:
so as few as 4 or as many as 6 kespa players are going to get through to the semis? At this rate, I hope the kespa players don't get too discouraged by these results and start thinking about quitting altogether.
?? Considering before these events Soulkey said it would be an embarrassment if any of the GSL players lost a series to them... I think KespA players are quite happy with the results.
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On July 30 2012 06:20 SiroKO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 06:05 Squeegy wrote:On July 30 2012 03:54 Grumbels wrote:On July 30 2012 02:50 Squeegy wrote:On July 30 2012 01:51 Grumbels wrote:On July 30 2012 01:03 Squeegy wrote:On July 30 2012 00:22 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2012 00:03 FairForever wrote:On July 29 2012 23:00 Ragnar1 wrote:
What he's saying is that BW players can become the best at SC2, but it's not necessarily going to be the best BW players who will be best at SC2 - the Elephant article says that people like Flash/Bisu/Fanta will dominate immediately (or close to immediately) - instead, we're seeing some very strong play from KeSPA players, but not the ones you'd expect (eg. Reality).
Can you point out where it says they will dominate to immediately or close to immediately? The only reference I can find is a quote that references something Jinro said "Our own Jinro states that if Flash could be persuaded to switch to SC2, he "could probably take games from anyone within a week, for TvT at least.” " Hot_Bid's quote? It doesn't say it explicitly but the article seems to imply, as evidenced by Hot_Bid's reaction to the comments, that top level BW pros will come and dominate the scene pretty quickly because of their work ethic and mechanics. It is also understood as such by most who discuss the article. The article was written when SC2 was less figured out, Korean SC2 progamers still had foreigner-like training methods (they were opposed to BW-like trainingschedules), and assuming KeSPA progamers made a clear-cut transition to SC2 at that time. It's impossible to determine whether the author was right since a vast number of SC2 progamers has adopted BW training methods and KeSPA players' transition has been dragging for months with their practice divided between BW and SC2. I don't think it is impossible to determine. We saw people pop into the scene from almost nowhere and do well at the time. We saw nobodies become kings. We saw atrocious play even at the highest level. But what was the point of the article? It sure wasn't that Flash could dominate in a month after he switches. That was an implication of the point (at the time). The point was that the scene was missing its brightest stars and therefore the competition was a farce (at the time). If Kespa players end up dominating, even if it takes a year or two, what do you think that tells us about the time before their arrival? The elephant thread was written in may, the GSL Code S at the time had: Nestea, Losira, Top, Nada, Sc, Polt, Clide, Supernova, Genius, Byun, MC, Zenio, San among others. There were also some 'awful' players like HongUn and Inca, but honestly the level of play wasn't that terrible. It got better, for sure, but a lot of the elephant thread was about how players like Nestea and MC are randoms that would lose to any competent B-teamer. And Flash was so far beyond those players that "within weeks" he would be competitive. In fact, it's been over three months now and Flash isn't even one of the better SC2 players among the KeSPA ones and so far only a few KeSPA players have been able to take games off GSL players, yet never convincingly so. (expected, since anyone can take games off anyone) I do have full confidence in Flash, but the level of the competition in SC2 certainly is at a level where it will take him maybe almost a year to become one of the best. Certainly not "a farce", not now and also not 12 months ago. But no one has claimed that the scene is a farce now and I see you arguing against that. Not so much against that it was a farce back then. Since the competition is not a farce now, to be this good that fast is nothing but impressive. I also have to point out that Flash, I dare say, according to most is one of the better Kespa players. And If I were to count, there'd probably be at least 20 cases of Kespa taking out a GSL player. Considering the limited amount of Kespa-GSL matches, it seems like many to me. Moreover, "convincingly" is nothing but a weasel word. convincingly = not PvP and not a game like Reality vs Symbol where Symbol played super awful. And if many of the same players are at the top both now and 12 months ago, how can it have been a farce back then when it isn't now according to you? So your explanation is that out of all the games that Kespa players won, it was either the GSL players playing poorly or PvP? There are probably at least 20 Kespa players that have defeated GSL players. So the amount of matches is measured in the dozens. Interesting disparity here too: The 20 or so Kespa players count to you as few. But the 7 GSL players that were in Code S in May and who are in Code S now count as many. Weasel words. Because they started playing better. The skill level rose signficantly. New players joined in. The number of logical fallacies in your post is quite astounding. "Out of all the games..." Would you mind posting the exact official Kespa win ratio against GSL code A and code S players ? That would be the first step for a logical and healthy discussion. For your own info, finale is not part of code A.
By all means, point out even one logical fallacy there. Please.
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On July 30 2012 06:05 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 03:54 Grumbels wrote:On July 30 2012 02:50 Squeegy wrote:On July 30 2012 01:51 Grumbels wrote:On July 30 2012 01:03 Squeegy wrote:On July 30 2012 00:22 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2012 00:03 FairForever wrote:On July 29 2012 23:00 Ragnar1 wrote:
What he's saying is that BW players can become the best at SC2, but it's not necessarily going to be the best BW players who will be best at SC2 - the Elephant article says that people like Flash/Bisu/Fanta will dominate immediately (or close to immediately) - instead, we're seeing some very strong play from KeSPA players, but not the ones you'd expect (eg. Reality).
Can you point out where it says they will dominate to immediately or close to immediately? The only reference I can find is a quote that references something Jinro said "Our own Jinro states that if Flash could be persuaded to switch to SC2, he "could probably take games from anyone within a week, for TvT at least.” " Hot_Bid's quote? It doesn't say it explicitly but the article seems to imply, as evidenced by Hot_Bid's reaction to the comments, that top level BW pros will come and dominate the scene pretty quickly because of their work ethic and mechanics. It is also understood as such by most who discuss the article. The article was written when SC2 was less figured out, Korean SC2 progamers still had foreigner-like training methods (they were opposed to BW-like trainingschedules), and assuming KeSPA progamers made a clear-cut transition to SC2 at that time. It's impossible to determine whether the author was right since a vast number of SC2 progamers has adopted BW training methods and KeSPA players' transition has been dragging for months with their practice divided between BW and SC2. I don't think it is impossible to determine. We saw people pop into the scene from almost nowhere and do well at the time. We saw nobodies become kings. We saw atrocious play even at the highest level. But what was the point of the article? It sure wasn't that Flash could dominate in a month after he switches. That was an implication of the point (at the time). The point was that the scene was missing its brightest stars and therefore the competition was a farce (at the time). If Kespa players end up dominating, even if it takes a year or two, what do you think that tells us about the time before their arrival? The elephant thread was written in may, the GSL Code S at the time had: Nestea, Losira, Top, Nada, Sc, Polt, Clide, Supernova, Genius, Byun, MC, Zenio, San among others. There were also some 'awful' players like HongUn and Inca, but honestly the level of play wasn't that terrible. It got better, for sure, but a lot of the elephant thread was about how players like Nestea and MC are randoms that would lose to any competent B-teamer. And Flash was so far beyond those players that "within weeks" he would be competitive. In fact, it's been over three months now and Flash isn't even one of the better SC2 players among the KeSPA ones and so far only a few KeSPA players have been able to take games off GSL players, yet never convincingly so. (expected, since anyone can take games off anyone) I do have full confidence in Flash, but the level of the competition in SC2 certainly is at a level where it will take him maybe almost a year to become one of the best. Certainly not "a farce", not now and also not 12 months ago. But no one has claimed that the scene is a farce now and I see you arguing against that. Not so much against that it was a farce back then. Since the competition is not a farce now, to be this good that fast is nothing but impressive. I also have to point out that Flash, I dare say, according to most is one of the better Kespa players. And If I were to count, there'd probably be at least 20 cases of Kespa taking out a GSL player. Considering the limited amount of Kespa-GSL matches, it seems like many to me. Moreover, "convincingly" is nothing but a weasel word. convincingly = not PvP and not a game like Reality vs Symbol where Symbol played super awful. And if many of the same players are at the top both now and 12 months ago, how can it have been a farce back then when it isn't now according to you? So your explanation is that out of all the games that Kespa players won, it was either the GSL players playing poorly or PvP? There are probably at least 20 Kespa players that have defeated GSL players. So the amount of matches is measured in the dozens. Interesting disparity here too: The 20 or so Kespa players count to you as few. But the 7 GSL players that were in Code S in May and who are in Code S now count as many. Weasel words. Because they started playing better. The skill level rose signficantly. New players joined in.
Writing weasel words like that makes it seem like you think a significant amount of KeSPA players are competitive with GSL players (unless you're just trying to be annoying), when in fact they're not - which is beyond dispute I hope. Taking the occasional series in volatile match-ups or against people have bad days says nothing, you can use the same logic to argue that foreigners are competitive with Koreans.
The elephant thread said that the competition is a farce because bad BW players were winning and that a lot of the KeSPA pros could just dominate if they wanted to. Yet a significant amount of the best players currently were already very strong back then and were in fact held up as examples of bad players, including players like Nestea and MC. Obviously Code S now isn't equal to Code S one year ago, but there's still significant overlap. I could name many more players that were already good at SC2 back then, like alive, squirtle, dongraegu, mma, leenock, jjakji, puzzle, curious, puma, mvp, marineking etc.
I have no doubt that there will be a significant number of kespa pros among the top sc2 players within 6 months or so, but that was always going to happen and was never enough to prove the elephant thread correct. (I'm still waiting for bisu to win his first sc2 game)
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On July 30 2012 07:01 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 06:05 Squeegy wrote:On July 30 2012 03:54 Grumbels wrote:On July 30 2012 02:50 Squeegy wrote:On July 30 2012 01:51 Grumbels wrote:On July 30 2012 01:03 Squeegy wrote:On July 30 2012 00:22 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2012 00:03 FairForever wrote:On July 29 2012 23:00 Ragnar1 wrote:
What he's saying is that BW players can become the best at SC2, but it's not necessarily going to be the best BW players who will be best at SC2 - the Elephant article says that people like Flash/Bisu/Fanta will dominate immediately (or close to immediately) - instead, we're seeing some very strong play from KeSPA players, but not the ones you'd expect (eg. Reality).
Can you point out where it says they will dominate to immediately or close to immediately? The only reference I can find is a quote that references something Jinro said "Our own Jinro states that if Flash could be persuaded to switch to SC2, he "could probably take games from anyone within a week, for TvT at least.” " Hot_Bid's quote? It doesn't say it explicitly but the article seems to imply, as evidenced by Hot_Bid's reaction to the comments, that top level BW pros will come and dominate the scene pretty quickly because of their work ethic and mechanics. It is also understood as such by most who discuss the article. The article was written when SC2 was less figured out, Korean SC2 progamers still had foreigner-like training methods (they were opposed to BW-like trainingschedules), and assuming KeSPA progamers made a clear-cut transition to SC2 at that time. It's impossible to determine whether the author was right since a vast number of SC2 progamers has adopted BW training methods and KeSPA players' transition has been dragging for months with their practice divided between BW and SC2. I don't think it is impossible to determine. We saw people pop into the scene from almost nowhere and do well at the time. We saw nobodies become kings. We saw atrocious play even at the highest level. But what was the point of the article? It sure wasn't that Flash could dominate in a month after he switches. That was an implication of the point (at the time). The point was that the scene was missing its brightest stars and therefore the competition was a farce (at the time). If Kespa players end up dominating, even if it takes a year or two, what do you think that tells us about the time before their arrival? The elephant thread was written in may, the GSL Code S at the time had: Nestea, Losira, Top, Nada, Sc, Polt, Clide, Supernova, Genius, Byun, MC, Zenio, San among others. There were also some 'awful' players like HongUn and Inca, but honestly the level of play wasn't that terrible. It got better, for sure, but a lot of the elephant thread was about how players like Nestea and MC are randoms that would lose to any competent B-teamer. And Flash was so far beyond those players that "within weeks" he would be competitive. In fact, it's been over three months now and Flash isn't even one of the better SC2 players among the KeSPA ones and so far only a few KeSPA players have been able to take games off GSL players, yet never convincingly so. (expected, since anyone can take games off anyone) I do have full confidence in Flash, but the level of the competition in SC2 certainly is at a level where it will take him maybe almost a year to become one of the best. Certainly not "a farce", not now and also not 12 months ago. But no one has claimed that the scene is a farce now and I see you arguing against that. Not so much against that it was a farce back then. Since the competition is not a farce now, to be this good that fast is nothing but impressive. I also have to point out that Flash, I dare say, according to most is one of the better Kespa players. And If I were to count, there'd probably be at least 20 cases of Kespa taking out a GSL player. Considering the limited amount of Kespa-GSL matches, it seems like many to me. Moreover, "convincingly" is nothing but a weasel word. convincingly = not PvP and not a game like Reality vs Symbol where Symbol played super awful. And if many of the same players are at the top both now and 12 months ago, how can it have been a farce back then when it isn't now according to you? So your explanation is that out of all the games that Kespa players won, it was either the GSL players playing poorly or PvP? There are probably at least 20 Kespa players that have defeated GSL players. So the amount of matches is measured in the dozens. Interesting disparity here too: The 20 or so Kespa players count to you as few. But the 7 GSL players that were in Code S in May and who are in Code S now count as many. Weasel words. Because they started playing better. The skill level rose signficantly. New players joined in. Writing weasel words like that makes it seem like you think a significant amount of KeSPA players are competitive with GSL players (unless you're just trying to be annoying), when in fact they're not - which is beyond dispute I hope. Taking the occasional series in volatile match-ups or against people have bad days says nothing, you can use the same logic to argue that foreigners are competitive with Koreans. The elephant thread said that the competition is a farce because bad BW players were winning and that a lot of the KeSPA pros could just dominate if they wanted to. Yet a significant amount of the best players currently were already very strong back then and were in fact held up as examples of bad players, including players like Nestea and MC. Obviously Code S now isn't equal to Code S one year ago, but there's still significant overlap. I could name many more players that were already good at SC2 back then, like alive, squirtle, dongraegu, mma, leenock, jjakji, puzzle, curious, puma, mvp, marineking etc. I have no doubt that there will be a significant number of kespa pros among the top sc2 players within 6 months or so, but that was always going to happen and was never enough to prove the elephant thread correct. (I'm still waiting for bisu to win his first sc2 game)
I gave you the concrete number of 20 Kespa players who have beaten GSL players. The amount of games is of course larger than 20. You are saying all these cases were either PvP or the GSL player having a bad day. That's all I'm saying.
In May, Jinro for example was Code S. Or Lyn. And I guarantee you if the latter tried again, he wouldn't make it. It's because there is a significant difference in skill. This is why people say that back then a switch would have resulted in swift domination by Kespa. Although, if the switch had happened two or three months prior to the article, the switch would have been even easier. It was after the article that player such as Dongraegu began to be noticed. Anyway, the point of the Elephant was no specific time window during which Kespa has to dominate. The point was that they are the best and they were not playing.
What does significant mean here? You should be less vague. Sometimes few is 20 to you and many is 7. It makes it quite difficult to follow what exactly you mean.
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I have to say, all these qualifiers are confusing me - OSL, WCS, and now WCG -_-
I was trying to find the results of this qualifier without going to the thread for the link, and ended up looking at the WCS qualifier pages - cue much confusion.
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The elephant article was a terrible article based on terrible assumptions with so many "IF's" that it's created such a huge divide between the TL community.
I want Kespa players to do well not because I have this misplaced competitive urge to see GSL players lose. I want more players in the scene to grow Esports in general. And it's a damn shame that article was written because it created such terrible fanboyism on either side. Ugh.
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On July 30 2012 08:02 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 07:01 Grumbels wrote:On July 30 2012 06:05 Squeegy wrote:On July 30 2012 03:54 Grumbels wrote:On July 30 2012 02:50 Squeegy wrote:On July 30 2012 01:51 Grumbels wrote:On July 30 2012 01:03 Squeegy wrote:On July 30 2012 00:22 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2012 00:03 FairForever wrote:On July 29 2012 23:00 Ragnar1 wrote:
[quote]
Can you point out where it says they will dominate to immediately or close to immediately? The only reference I can find is a quote that references something Jinro said "Our own Jinro states that if Flash could be persuaded to switch to SC2, he "could probably take games from anyone within a week, for TvT at least.” " Hot_Bid's quote? It doesn't say it explicitly but the article seems to imply, as evidenced by Hot_Bid's reaction to the comments, that top level BW pros will come and dominate the scene pretty quickly because of their work ethic and mechanics. It is also understood as such by most who discuss the article. The article was written when SC2 was less figured out, Korean SC2 progamers still had foreigner-like training methods (they were opposed to BW-like trainingschedules), and assuming KeSPA progamers made a clear-cut transition to SC2 at that time. It's impossible to determine whether the author was right since a vast number of SC2 progamers has adopted BW training methods and KeSPA players' transition has been dragging for months with their practice divided between BW and SC2. I don't think it is impossible to determine. We saw people pop into the scene from almost nowhere and do well at the time. We saw nobodies become kings. We saw atrocious play even at the highest level. But what was the point of the article? It sure wasn't that Flash could dominate in a month after he switches. That was an implication of the point (at the time). The point was that the scene was missing its brightest stars and therefore the competition was a farce (at the time). If Kespa players end up dominating, even if it takes a year or two, what do you think that tells us about the time before their arrival? The elephant thread was written in may, the GSL Code S at the time had: Nestea, Losira, Top, Nada, Sc, Polt, Clide, Supernova, Genius, Byun, MC, Zenio, San among others. There were also some 'awful' players like HongUn and Inca, but honestly the level of play wasn't that terrible. It got better, for sure, but a lot of the elephant thread was about how players like Nestea and MC are randoms that would lose to any competent B-teamer. And Flash was so far beyond those players that "within weeks" he would be competitive. In fact, it's been over three months now and Flash isn't even one of the better SC2 players among the KeSPA ones and so far only a few KeSPA players have been able to take games off GSL players, yet never convincingly so. (expected, since anyone can take games off anyone) I do have full confidence in Flash, but the level of the competition in SC2 certainly is at a level where it will take him maybe almost a year to become one of the best. Certainly not "a farce", not now and also not 12 months ago. But no one has claimed that the scene is a farce now and I see you arguing against that. Not so much against that it was a farce back then. Since the competition is not a farce now, to be this good that fast is nothing but impressive. I also have to point out that Flash, I dare say, according to most is one of the better Kespa players. And If I were to count, there'd probably be at least 20 cases of Kespa taking out a GSL player. Considering the limited amount of Kespa-GSL matches, it seems like many to me. Moreover, "convincingly" is nothing but a weasel word. convincingly = not PvP and not a game like Reality vs Symbol where Symbol played super awful. And if many of the same players are at the top both now and 12 months ago, how can it have been a farce back then when it isn't now according to you? So your explanation is that out of all the games that Kespa players won, it was either the GSL players playing poorly or PvP? There are probably at least 20 Kespa players that have defeated GSL players. So the amount of matches is measured in the dozens. Interesting disparity here too: The 20 or so Kespa players count to you as few. But the 7 GSL players that were in Code S in May and who are in Code S now count as many. Weasel words. Because they started playing better. The skill level rose signficantly. New players joined in. Writing weasel words like that makes it seem like you think a significant amount of KeSPA players are competitive with GSL players (unless you're just trying to be annoying), when in fact they're not - which is beyond dispute I hope. Taking the occasional series in volatile match-ups or against people have bad days says nothing, you can use the same logic to argue that foreigners are competitive with Koreans. The elephant thread said that the competition is a farce because bad BW players were winning and that a lot of the KeSPA pros could just dominate if they wanted to. Yet a significant amount of the best players currently were already very strong back then and were in fact held up as examples of bad players, including players like Nestea and MC. Obviously Code S now isn't equal to Code S one year ago, but there's still significant overlap. I could name many more players that were already good at SC2 back then, like alive, squirtle, dongraegu, mma, leenock, jjakji, puzzle, curious, puma, mvp, marineking etc. I have no doubt that there will be a significant number of kespa pros among the top sc2 players within 6 months or so, but that was always going to happen and was never enough to prove the elephant thread correct. (I'm still waiting for bisu to win his first sc2 game) I gave you the concrete number of 20 Kespa players who have beaten GSL players.
On July 30 2012 02:50 Squeegy wrote:
And If I were to count, there'd probably be at least 20 cases of Kespa taking out a GSL player.
He asked you to go get the actual number, not continue using your randomly surmised number of 20 as if it were a statistically researched fact. He even asked you to perhaps go a step further and find the number of wins over Code A/S players, which means that Baby's win over finale would not count(but Paralyze>Vampire would).
I don't even care to side in the argument, but seeing such intellectual laziness in an attempt to win your argument is so blah.
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EPT
