On December 08 2011 03:28 CosmicSpiral wrote: Did anyone really expect HuK to win? Not only has he been traveling all over the place and not practicing as hard as he could be, he only had ~2 days to prepare for this specific match against someone with a week and fairly good TvP.
I expected him to not get smashed that badly... I was quite dissapointed when he went the same build the second game. I knew it was over the moment he nexus first...
On December 08 2011 03:28 CosmicSpiral wrote: Did anyone really expect HuK to win? Not only has he been traveling all over the place and not practicing as hard as he could be, he only had ~2 days to prepare for this specific match against someone with a week and fairly good TvP.
You bring up good points, but getting rest and not having time to practice didn't determine the outcome of HuK's game. He instead picked a greedy build in the first game and got destroyed, then tried to get lucky with it again in game 2. It was simply a poor choice.
Fantastic series b/w boxer/mkp. Love them both, but as MKP's number 1 fanboy, so happy he's back in code s. This series is just a great example of what it means to be an mkp fan. Sometimes he looks brilliant and other times he just makes snarfs attacks like in game 2 causing you to face palm at his over aggressiveness and decision making. Then in game 3, he looks dead only to make an awesome comeback. The ups and downs of being an mkp fan is hard on the heart!
Hope boxer can still make code s, but it's going to be hard. Also, happy code s is bo3 next season because mkp sucks at bo1, so has a higher chance in code s now with bo3. Now go win wcg to claim a blizzard cup spot! (or at least come 2nd behind mvp! )
On December 08 2011 03:28 CosmicSpiral wrote: Did anyone really expect HuK to win? Not only has he been traveling all over the place and not practicing as hard as he could be, he only had ~2 days to prepare for this specific match against someone with a week and fairly good TvP.
You bring up good points, but getting rest and not having time to practice didn't determine the outcome of HuK's game. He instead picked a greedy build in the first game and got destroyed, then tried to get lucky with it again in game 2. It was simply a poor choice.
And I would bet that the decision to use the greedy build twice in a row came from the reasons I stated above. It was clear that HuK did not prepare specific strategies for the maps that he played on and that he lacked confidence in his own play/was way too confident in an iffy build.
On December 08 2011 03:28 CosmicSpiral wrote: Did anyone really expect HuK to win? Not only has he been traveling all over the place and not practicing as hard as he could be, he only had ~2 days to prepare for this specific match against someone with a week and fairly good TvP.
You bring up good points, but getting rest and not having time to practice didn't determine the outcome of HuK's game. He instead picked a greedy build in the first game and got destroyed, then tried to get lucky with it again in game 2. It was simply a poor choice.
And I would bet that the decision to use the greedy build twice in a row came from the reasons I stated above. It was clear that HuK did not prepare specific strategies for the maps that he played on and that he lacked confidence in his own play/was way too confident in an iffy build.
There is no excuse for going Nexus first on a map like Dual Sight in PvT, especially given what had just happened to him the last game. Was his sleep deprivation/lack of practice a contributing factor to his loss? Absolutely. Can his loss be attributed solely to sleep deprivation/lack of practice? Absolutely not.
Damn it BoxeR had game 3 in the bag. All he had to do was press the A-move or just siege mode to contain MKP. He was just way too passive in that mid game after a wonderful harass.
On December 08 2011 03:28 CosmicSpiral wrote: Did anyone really expect HuK to win? Not only has he been traveling all over the place and not practicing as hard as he could be, he only had ~2 days to prepare for this specific match against someone with a week and fairly good TvP.
You bring up good points, but getting rest and not having time to practice didn't determine the outcome of HuK's game. He instead picked a greedy build in the first game and got destroyed, then tried to get lucky with it again in game 2. It was simply a poor choice.
And I would bet that the decision to use the greedy build twice in a row came from the reasons I stated above. It was clear that HuK did not prepare specific strategies for the maps that he played on and that he lacked confidence in his own play/was way too confident in an iffy build.
I wouldn't bet that. That's extremely assumptive.
Maybe he 4-gates Keen every time he sees him on the ladder, and tried to metagame him hard by going Nexus first. Is there anyway we can know this for fact? Absolutely not.
More importantly -- after dying to reactored helions in the first game, can we agree that it would be an extremely poor decision to go Nexus first on Dual Sight in game 2?
Huk picked bad builds and paid the price. And yes, Artosis picked HuK to win quite easily on SotG if you are wondering.
I am soooo dissapointed with Boxer game 1 casting. Epic fail. GSL casters should watch GSL games and shouldn't have look that lame. They failed to give credit to Boxer with his build. That simply ruined my enjoyment of the game and they lost some credibility for me. I was expected better. shame...
On December 08 2011 03:28 CosmicSpiral wrote: Did anyone really expect HuK to win? Not only has he been traveling all over the place and not practicing as hard as he could be, he only had ~2 days to prepare for this specific match against someone with a week and fairly good TvP.
You bring up good points, but getting rest and not having time to practice didn't determine the outcome of HuK's game. He instead picked a greedy build in the first game and got destroyed, then tried to get lucky with it again in game 2. It was simply a poor choice.
And I would bet that the decision to use the greedy build twice in a row came from the reasons I stated above. It was clear that HuK did not prepare specific strategies for the maps that he played on and that he lacked confidence in his own play/was way too confident in an iffy build.
There is no excuse for going Nexus first on a map like Dual Sight in PvT, especially given what had just happened to him the last game. Was his sleep deprivation/lack of practice a contributing factor to his loss? Absolutely. Can his loss be attributed solely to sleep deprivation/lack of practice? Absolutely not.
Did I say sleep deprivation factored into his loss? No. I said lack of practice specifically for this match contributed to his loss. You generally don't nexus first on a map like Dual Sight on principle because there are so many ways to punish it, but this is thinking from a strategical standpoint. If you are not confident that you can defeat your opponent through standard play or exploiting a hole in their usual strategies, you will do something like nexus first and pray that your opponent chooses to play a macro style.
With almost no time to study Keen's play or focus on map-specific strategies HuK basically threw out an extremely greedy build and hoped that Keen would do standard TvP. Either he was way too confident in his ability to hold pressure (think MC vs Polt) or, more realistically, he realized how behind he was in preparation and didn't think he could win with the usual stuff.
On December 08 2011 03:28 CosmicSpiral wrote: Did anyone really expect HuK to win? Not only has he been traveling all over the place and not practicing as hard as he could be, he only had ~2 days to prepare for this specific match against someone with a week and fairly good TvP.
You bring up good points, but getting rest and not having time to practice didn't determine the outcome of HuK's game. He instead picked a greedy build in the first game and got destroyed, then tried to get lucky with it again in game 2. It was simply a poor choice.
And I would bet that the decision to use the greedy build twice in a row came from the reasons I stated above. It was clear that HuK did not prepare specific strategies for the maps that he played on and that he lacked confidence in his own play/was way too confident in an iffy build.
I wouldn't bet that. That's extremely assumptive.
Maybe he 4-gates Keen every time he sees him on the ladder, and tried to metagame him hard by going Nexus first. Is there anyway we can know this for fact? Absolutely not.
More importantly -- after dying to reactored helions in the first game, can we agree that it would be an extremely poor decision to go Nexus first on Dual Sight in game 2?
Huk picked bad builds and paid the price. And yes, Artosis picked HuK to win quite easily on SotG if you are wondering.
That worked once (it was against MarineKing, no?) but...why would HuK try to metagame Keen based on ladder matches? That would be extremely assumptive. We certainly know that a lot of pros do not play the same way on ladder as they do in tournament matches. I already explained why I think HuK went for questionable builds on questionable maps.
Well Artosis is simply wrong because he talking about the wrong matchup. Keen's success in TvT is somewhat luck-dependent, but his TvZ is standard solid play and his TvP focuses on early aggression based on intelligent scouting and decision-making.
That worked once (it was against MarineKing, no?) but...why would HuK try to metagame Keen based on ladder matches? That would be extremely assumptive. We certainly know that a lot of pros do not play the same way on ladder as they do in tournament matches. I already explained why I think HuK went for questionable builds on questionable maps.
Well Artosis is simply wrong because he talking about the wrong matchup. Keen's success in TvT is somewhat luck-dependent, but his TvZ is standard solid play and his TvP focuses on early aggression based on intelligent scouting and decision-making.
Lol - I used the Metagaming example to show that your assumptions are for lack of a better way to put it, too assumptive.
I still strongly believe that going into the match, regardless of a busy schedule or not, HuK is the favored player.
I'm not going to go into Keen's TvP skills, the point I'm discussing is HuK's poor play that is more likely attributed to poor decision making and build selection rather than travel fatigue. You are correct that HuK may have been tired, but I doubt that the games vs Keen were indicative of it. If HuK was getting out multitasked, slipping on Micro, then you could make the argument that HuK was looking fatigued. Picking Nexus in the 2nd game on an map like Dual Sight while being aware that your opponent has a build specified to kill you if you do that build is simply not giving yourself a chance.
If HuK were up against MVP, then OK I understand that he tried to get away with it twice. Is Keen that scary of a player? Quite simply, he's not. He's a fringe Code S / Code A player. In Game 2, HuK should have trusted his skills, fatigued or not, against Keen. Instead he chose to try to get lucky with greed and paid the price.
If you'd like to break down for me how Keen's TvP play is based on early aggression and intelligent scouting and decision making, then please feel free to detail it, but it's not relevant at all to this discussion.
That worked once (it was against MarineKing, no?) but...why would HuK try to metagame Keen based on ladder matches? That would be extremely assumptive. We certainly know that a lot of pros do not play the same way on ladder as they do in tournament matches. I already explained why I think HuK went for questionable builds on questionable maps.
Well Artosis is simply wrong because he talking about the wrong matchup. Keen's success in TvT is somewhat luck-dependent, but his TvZ is standard solid play and his TvP focuses on early aggression based on intelligent scouting and decision-making.
Lol - I used the Metagaming example to show that your assumptions are for lack of a better way to put it, too assumptive.
I still strongly believe that going into the match, regardless of a busy schedule or not, HuK is the favored player.
I'm not going to go into Keen's TvP skills, the point I'm discussing is HuK's poor play that is more likely attributed to poor decision making and build selection rather than travel fatigue. You are correct that HuK may have been tired, but I doubt that the games vs Keen were indicative of it. If HuK was getting out multitasked, slipping on Micro, then you could make the argument that HuK was looking fatigued. Picking Nexus in the 2nd game on an map like Dual Sight while being aware that your opponent has a build specified to kill you if you do that build is simply not giving yourself a chance.
If HuK were up against MVP, then OK I understand that he tried to get away with it twice. Is Keen that scary of a player? Quite simply, he's not. He's a fringe Code S / Code A player. In Game 2, HuK should have trusted his skills, fatigued or not, against Keen. Instead he chose to try to get lucky with greed and paid the price.
If you'd like to break down for me how Keen's TvP play is based on early aggression and intelligent scouting and decision making, then please feel free to detail it, but it's not relevant at all to this discussion.
Yes, my assumptions are assumptive. Yet they make far more sense than saying "HuK, a professional player, decided to do an extremely bad build twice in a row for no conceivable reason/just because he could". This type of decision-making is completely separate from his self-admitted weaknesses e.g. being too aggressive in PvP against defensive players. If he did choose to do a nexus first build twice for no reason that would imply that he is bad.
You need to stop arguing over topics I'm not talking about. Nowhere did I say that HuK lost because he was fatigued. 2 days is more than enough time to get sleep. Fatigue had nothing to do with why he lost. A lack of preparation and confidence did, which means everything in a GSL BO3.
Only people who aren't paying attention to details would say HuK is favored in that match. HuK is running cold right now, Keen is hot; Keen has the momentum of sweeping through Code A heading into that match. HuK has had little time to figure out Keen's play and how to deal with it, Keen has had a week to study HuK and plenty of televised games to watch. Keen is actually pretty damn good in TvP and while HuK's PvT against foreigners is one of the best, he has never had great success in Korea with it. Certainly a 2-0 this ugly is not easily anticipated, but I didn't have any doubts that Keen would decisively win the series.
Keen is a fringe Code S/Code A player and that means absolutely nothing in terms of skill. Just like every other player in the GSL he is extremely good, except Keen has actual results to back that up. He made it to Code S in his first Code A run (only losing the MvP) and generally wins in TvZ and TvP in both GSL and GSTL.
I was discussing why Artosis was wrong in saying Keen's wins are somewhat luck-dependent. This is true in TvT because Keen is shaky in TvT. He is not shaky in his other matchups, and HuK is not a terran player.
On December 08 2011 04:28 foxmulder_ms wrote: I am soooo dissapointed with Boxer game 1 casting. Epic fail. GSL casters should watch GSL games and shouldn't have look that lame. They failed to give credit to Boxer with his build. That simply ruined my enjoyment of the game and they lost some credibility for me. I was expected better. shame...
Damn agree lol. I'm sure Tastorsis didn't watch code A at all. I mean BoxeR beat Virus 2-0 with this build in the last round and they didn't know anything. MKP was really smart to use BoxeR's build to back fire him hard. I think making bunker in that situation definitely help BoxeR easily
That worked once (it was against MarineKing, no?) but...why would HuK try to metagame Keen based on ladder matches? That would be extremely assumptive. We certainly know that a lot of pros do not play the same way on ladder as they do in tournament matches. I already explained why I think HuK went for questionable builds on questionable maps.
Well Artosis is simply wrong because he talking about the wrong matchup. Keen's success in TvT is somewhat luck-dependent, but his TvZ is standard solid play and his TvP focuses on early aggression based on intelligent scouting and decision-making.
Lol - I used the Metagaming example to show that your assumptions are for lack of a better way to put it, too assumptive.
I still strongly believe that going into the match, regardless of a busy schedule or not, HuK is the favored player.
I'm not going to go into Keen's TvP skills, the point I'm discussing is HuK's poor play that is more likely attributed to poor decision making and build selection rather than travel fatigue. You are correct that HuK may have been tired, but I doubt that the games vs Keen were indicative of it. If HuK was getting out multitasked, slipping on Micro, then you could make the argument that HuK was looking fatigued. Picking Nexus in the 2nd game on an map like Dual Sight while being aware that your opponent has a build specified to kill you if you do that build is simply not giving yourself a chance.
If HuK were up against MVP, then OK I understand that he tried to get away with it twice. Is Keen that scary of a player? Quite simply, he's not. He's a fringe Code S / Code A player. In Game 2, HuK should have trusted his skills, fatigued or not, against Keen. Instead he chose to try to get lucky with greed and paid the price.
If you'd like to break down for me how Keen's TvP play is based on early aggression and intelligent scouting and decision making, then please feel free to detail it, but it's not relevant at all to this discussion.
Yes, my assumptions are assumptive. Yet they make far more sense than saying "HuK, a professional player, decided to do an extremely bad build twice in a row for no conceivable reason/just because he could". This type of decision-making is completely separate from his self-admitted weaknesses e.g. being too aggressive in PvP against defensive players. If he did choose to do a nexus first build twice for no reason that would imply that he is bad.
You need to stop arguing over topics I'm not talking about. Nowhere did I say that HuK lost because he was fatigued. 2 days is more than enough time to get sleep. Fatigue had nothing to do with why he lost. A lack of preparation and confidence did, which means everything in a GSL BO3.
Only people who aren't paying attention to details would say HuK is favored in that match. HuK is running cold right now, Keen is hot; Keen has the momentum of sweeping through Code A heading into that match. HuK has had little time to figure out Keen's play and how to deal with it, Keen has had a week to study HuK and plenty of televised games to watch. Keen is actually pretty damn good in TvP and while HuK's PvT against foreigners is one of the best, he has never had great success in Korea with it. Certainly a 2-0 this ugly is not easily anticipated, but I didn't have any doubts that Keen would decisively win the series.
And HuK is a fringe Code S/Code A player. So what's your point?
I was discussing why Artosis was wrong in saying Keen's wins are somewhat luck-dependent. This is true in TvT because Keen is shaky in TvT. He is not shaky in his other matchups, and HuK is not a terran player.
OK last post for this topic (not because I'm fed up with you or anything, but I'm moving on)
If HuK is also fringe Code S/Code A - same as Keen - then why would he play with such lack of confidence as you assume? That is my point. HuK has a SHOT against Keen. A good shot too in my opinion.
I pointed out fatigue because you hinted at HuK having to travel, and I don't see how it can't factor into the points you mentioned about being under prepared and lacking on practice (due to travel).
No lack of preparation of / lack of confidence explains going Nexus first twice against a player who has just demonstrated to you that you will build order lose, assuming they execute the exact same build. (on Dual Sight as well).
That is simply a bad decision.
Going back to your very original point in your post regarding "Did anyone expect HuK to win?" Yes, lots of people expected HuK to win and for good reason. Two similarly tiered players (as you say) in the GSL going head to head. That alone makes it a competitive match.
I'm not sure why you keep insisting that Keen's TvP is particularly strong.
- Tassadar (out of GSL) - Inca (weak PvT) - Banbans (out of GSL) - JYP (weak PvT) - Tester (out of GSL)
Pair this information with a recent loss to Hongun, and Oz and you have very inconclusive information. I'm not particularly impressed by Keen's TvP, and Huk's PvT is one of his better match ups.
So yes, I expected HuK to win, and for good reason.
Shame for him to lose that first game, he even had all his units on the cliff, but he still lost? i'm not sure why. Seems like he considered the possibility of some kind of mass reapers so he put his army at the cliff, but it seems like he didn't have enough anyways? Did he not expect MKP to be doing that or what? And then his push sieged late but i think if MKP micro'd properly his stim marines would still have crushed that push
Anyways
The 2nd game was quite good o.o boxer is pretty good now.
3rd game... Sigh, boxer was so ahead. Even though he lost his raven, I think the problem was overconfidence. He started going BCs on 3 base. Even though he saw MKP didn't have much air, BC is a huge investment and can be risky. Why not just go for the 200/200 mech army? Also I think this overconfidence related to why he didn't pull his whole army to deal with what seemed obvious to me to be MKP's full army. He would leave half sieged up to defend his third, and pull half to defend... only to siege late, and die. And then he'd bring some more, and siege late and die again. The third time, Boxer pulled the rest of his tanks and lost.
WTF?!?! Was Boxer underestimating MKP's army, was too busy to unsiege his tanks, or what? It was so painful for him to send half and half and half and then just die. Omg lol.
However the good thing is this: Assuming MKP didn't "choke hard" (it seems he might have in game 2), Boxer showed pretty well that even his TvT is quite good. MKP is a player that was almost as good as MVP. MVP I think most will agree he was a step above MKP, but it wasn't that big. The global GSL finals that they fought in was really close and MKP showed what great TvT he had. And plus it seems he does better off stage too, since he beat someone in that finals (MMA? or was it DRG in the AoL? I forget).
Anyways point is that Boxer is pretty good now even though he lost. So I'm very glad.
It's a bit sad though, MKP shares many similarities with Boxer but it seems that MKP does them better than Boxer (except Boxer I would say is still more innovative). But things like epic micro, etc., MKP does much better. His micro was really fun to watch, for example moving his medivac while dropping and picking up his tank, and etc.
There's still up/down, Boxer might get up. But even if he doesn't, he's definitely Code A material, unlike what many doubted in the past xD
EPT
