[GSL] Nov Code A RO24 D3

[GSL] Nov Code A RO24 D3 - Page 97

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Jisall

United States2054 Posts

December 07 2011 20:42 GMT

#1921

Go keen, been a fan ever since his celebrations.

Also MKP picture in OP made me laugh my ass off. Ty dude lol

CosmicSpiral

United States15275 Posts

December 07 2011 21:10 GMT

#1922

On December 08 2011 05:36 QTIP. wrote:

Show nested quote +

On December 08 2011 05:17 CosmicSpiral wrote:

On December 08 2011 04:48 QTIP. wrote:

That worked once (it was against MarineKing, no?) but...why would HuK try to metagame Keen based on ladder matches? That would be extremely assumptive. We certainly know that a lot of pros do not play the same way on ladder as they do in tournament matches. I already explained why I think HuK went for questionable builds on questionable maps.

Well Artosis is simply wrong because he talking about the wrong matchup. Keen's success in TvT is somewhat luck-dependent, but his TvZ is standard solid play and his TvP focuses on early aggression based on intelligent scouting and decision-making.

Lol - I used the Metagaming example to show that your assumptions are for lack of a better way to put it, too assumptive.

I still strongly believe that going into the match, regardless of a busy schedule or not, HuK is the favored player.

I'm not going to go into Keen's TvP skills, the point I'm discussing is HuK's poor play that is more likely attributed to poor decision making and build selection rather than travel fatigue. You are correct that HuK may have been tired, but I doubt that the games vs Keen were indicative of it. If HuK was getting out multitasked, slipping on Micro, then you could make the argument that HuK was looking fatigued. Picking Nexus in the 2nd game on an map like Dual Sight while being aware that your opponent has a build specified to kill you if you do that build is simply not giving yourself a chance.

If HuK were up against MVP, then OK I understand that he tried to get away with it twice. Is Keen that scary of a player? Quite simply, he's not. He's a fringe Code S / Code A player. In Game 2, HuK should have trusted his skills, fatigued or not, against Keen. Instead he chose to try to get lucky with greed and paid the price.

If you'd like to break down for me how Keen's TvP play is based on early aggression and intelligent scouting and decision making, then please feel free to detail it, but it's not relevant at all to this discussion.

Yes, my assumptions are assumptive. Yet they make far more sense than saying "HuK, a professional player, decided to do an extremely bad build twice in a row for no conceivable reason/just because he could". This type of decision-making is completely separate from his self-admitted weaknesses e.g. being too aggressive in PvP against defensive players. If he did choose to do a nexus first build twice for no reason that would imply that he is bad.

You need to stop arguing over topics I'm not talking about. Nowhere did I say that HuK lost because he was fatigued. 2 days is more than enough time to get sleep. Fatigue had nothing to do with why he lost. A lack of preparation and confidence did, which means everything in a GSL BO3.

Only people who aren't paying attention to details would say HuK is favored in that match. HuK is running cold right now, Keen is hot; Keen has the momentum of sweeping through Code A heading into that match. HuK has had little time to figure out Keen's play and how to deal with it, Keen has had a week to study HuK and plenty of televised games to watch. Keen is actually pretty damn good in TvP and while HuK's PvT against foreigners is one of the best, he has never had great success in Korea with it. Certainly a 2-0 this ugly is not easily anticipated, but I didn't have any doubts that Keen would decisively win the series.

And HuK is a fringe Code S/Code A player. So what's your point?

I was discussing why Artosis was wrong in saying Keen's wins are somewhat luck-dependent. This is true in TvT because Keen is shaky in TvT. He is not shaky in his other matchups, and HuK is not a terran player.

OK last post for this topic (not because I'm fed up with you or anything, but I'm moving on)

If HuK is also fringe Code S/Code A - same as Keen - then why would he play with such lack of confidence as you assume? That is my point. HuK has a SHOT against Keen. A good shot too in my opinion.

I pointed out fatigue because you hinted at HuK having to travel, and I don't see how it can't factor into the points you mentioned about being under prepared and lacking on practice (due to travel).

No lack of preparation of / lack of confidence explains going Nexus first twice against a player who has just demonstrated to you that you will build order lose, assuming they execute the exact same build. (on Dual Sight as well).

That is simply a bad decision.

Going back to your very original point in your post regarding "Did anyone expect HuK to win?" Yes, lots of people expected HuK to win and for good reason. Two similarly tiered players (as you say) in the GSL going head to head. That alone makes it a competitive match.

I'm not sure why you keep insisting that Keen's TvP is particularly strong.

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/players/2242_Keen/games
Wins:

- Tassadar (out of GSL)
- Inca (weak PvT)
- Banbans (out of GSL)
- JYP (weak PvT)
- Tester (out of GSL)

Pair this information with a recent loss to Hongun, and Oz and you have very inconclusive information. I'm not particularly impressed by Keen's TvP, and Huk's PvT is one of his better match ups.

So yes, I expected HuK to win, and for good reason.

kk

Obviously HuK would have had a shot if he had played more conservatively, like going 1 gate nexus into 3 gate. But you have to think about what the situation looks like from HuK's POV, and I'm pretty confident in saying that it looked like my previous post.

Fatigue from travel would only matter if he had a day or so to recover. I was more concerned about the effect constant traveling would have on his mechanics and his flexibility. It certainly looks like his flexibility suffered.

Those aren't necessarily good reasons because circumstances are always changing and you have to take into account all the factors that influence a certain match. A good example would be Ryung vs Brown. If you only judge by approximate skill level then Ryung would be the clear winner. But if you take into account Ryung's shaky TvP and that Brown has a lot more info on Ryung than vice/versa, you could predict the "upset." You could do the same thing for HuK vs HasuObs, Jjakji vs Leenock, Seiplo's group at Dramhack, San's success in GSL March, or any unexpected upset. Most of them are actually foreseeable if you know what information is relevant to the series.

Descriptions of matchups run roughly along this ranking (alliteration for the win!):

Bad = loses to everybody regardless of approximate skill level (JYP's PvT)
Ok = ~50% W/L ratio against opponents who are roughly the same skill level (Lucky's ZvT)
Inconsistent = beats opponents who are "better" and loses to opponents who are "worse" (HongUn PvT)
Strong = consistently beats opponents who are "worse" and often loses to opponents who are "better/inconsistent"(Keen TvP)
Amazing = consistently beats opponents who are all of the above (Nestea's ZvZ, Polt's former TvP, Inca's PvP)

HuK's PvT record looks better if you count his international success. But by nature this artificially inflates his winning percentage since he's playing against worse opponents. His Korean PvT has been meh so far.

P.S. You're confusing Inca's PvZ with his PvT. The latter has always been decent (wonky openers + somewhat uncertain mid-game + strong late-game).

HolyArrow

United States7116 Posts

December 07 2011 21:11 GMT

#1923

On December 08 2011 01:23 noddy wrote:

Show nested quote +

To be fair, MarineKing gave Boxer Game 2 after completely destroying him for most of the game. It should have been 2-0.

"To be fair?" I sense a double standard here. If MKP gave BoxeR game 2 after completely destroying him for most of the game then the reverse can be said about game 3. I know that you want to perceive things to fit your preconceived notion that MKP should have destroyed BoxeR, but the fact of the matter is this that their series was a damn close one in which many mistakes and great plays alike were made by both sides.

noddy

United Kingdom927 Posts

December 07 2011 23:35 GMT

#1924

On December 08 2011 06:11 HolyArrow wrote:

Show nested quote +

What I'm saying is the same people who think MarineKing didn't deserve to win need to pull their heads out of their asses and realise, if they're going by "what if" there never should have been a Game 3.

Elurie

4716 Posts

December 08 2011 01:32 GMT

#1925

On December 08 2011 04:27 tuho12345 wrote:
Too bad they don't have code A final. The code A finals have been always better than code S finals.

Hmm it would have to be the most epic Code A finals ever, to top this November's Code S finals.

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