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It's just not a GSL finals without MVP playing TvT.
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I hope at least one of the 2 terrans gets eliminated. I don't want to watch TvT. T.T
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On November 28 2011 10:31 bittman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 09:57 1Eris1 wrote:On November 28 2011 09:53 0ne wrote:If MVP wins this season can we finally say he is the first sc2 bonjwa?  Stop, please stop. This shouldn't even be discussed for several more months if not years. If MVP had had a better MLG run I'd argue for it. As it is though, I can't. Which means unfortunately Brood War fanboys who believe bonjwa will even remotely mean the same thing in SC2 as it did in BW will be able to make cases with evidence whilst sc2 fans will point at players with decent runs but no real domination. As a general guide, in my books given the state of sc2 and the sheer number of tournaments, the bonjwa status will be something that can be argued for someone who dominates for a few months, not "years" or something around that. ...this isn't an arguement starter...but BW fanboys do tick me off at times! Everytime I see a thread like "It did xxxxxx better in BW" I shake my head. Like the football fans who refuse to even discuss video referees because that's not how it has been proven to work already =/ [/derailingthethreadmybaddontpayanyattentiontome]
It's fine, just to people arguing about whether or not MVP is one or not...
Remember a few things
1. The term originated in Korea. TL does not decide who bonjwas are. If you want to call MVP a bonjwa in your head, fine whatever, but calling him one on boards that involve SC2 and BW is just going to end up badly, especially considering the state of SC2 balance, volatility, etc
2. The term doesn't just mean X player dominated X amount of time, it is also used to referenced people who revamped the game in a completely unpredictable and amazing way. (Boxer with micro, Oov and Nada with macro/builds, Saviour with the entire zerg race, Flash is kind of an exception, but he basically earned the term because he is the most talented RTS player of all time, and he still brought in a few new concepts and strats.)
I mean, only an idiot would argue MVP isn't the best player in the world right now, but has he really revamped the meta-game in an astounding fashion? He is just incredibly solid, but innovative? Idk. FD, MC, and MKP are honestly the big innovaters so far, with a couple other exceptions.
3. The term is so delicate, so honorary, that it cannot just be tossed around like any other term. (Yes we can joke, but to actually call or discuss someone being a bonjwa is a huge deal.) MVP himself has said he shouldn't be compared to guys like Flash, at least not yet, that should be enough for now.
MVP is probably the first "dominant player" of the SC2 era, but a bonjwa? Thats diving into a pool full of cement. Shit, I mean Bisu isn't even a bonjwa, and that guy revamped protoss vs zerg in such a way that his playstyle has been standard for 4 years now, but he wasn't able to continue his dominance, so he never "earned" the term. (Although he came close.)
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Oz vs. Leenock would be a really interesting final but I feel like Leenock would stomp Oz too hard. Oz vs. MVP would probably be the most interesting finals possible at this point IMO. Oz has really good PvT and this would be a good chance for MVP to show some truly impressive TvP in the GSL.
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I'll hope Leenock can win, he really has to to prove him beating MVP wasn't a fluke.
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Cheering for MVP!! And Oz.
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MVP and Jjakji for yet another TvT finals.
I think MVP will have enough working knowledge of Leenock to snipe him now, ending his reign of terror.
Jjakji and OZ could go either way, but my gut feeling is that we'll get a TvT finals...
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On November 28 2011 10:46 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 10:31 bittman wrote:On November 28 2011 09:57 1Eris1 wrote:On November 28 2011 09:53 0ne wrote:If MVP wins this season can we finally say he is the first sc2 bonjwa? Stop, please stop. This shouldn't even be discussed for several more months if not years. If MVP had had a better MLG run I'd argue for it. As it is though, I can't. Which means unfortunately Brood War fanboys who believe bonjwa will even remotely mean the same thing in SC2 as it did in BW will be able to make cases with evidence whilst sc2 fans will point at players with decent runs but no real domination. As a general guide, in my books given the state of sc2 and the sheer number of tournaments, the bonjwa status will be something that can be argued for someone who dominates for a few months, not "years" or something around that. ...this isn't an arguement starter...but BW fanboys do tick me off at times! Everytime I see a thread like "It did xxxxxx better in BW" I shake my head. Like the football fans who refuse to even discuss video referees because that's not how it has been proven to work already =/ [/derailingthethreadmybaddontpayanyattentiontome] It's fine, just to people arguing about whether or not MVP is one or not... Remember a few things1. The term originated in Korea. TL does not decide who bonjwas are. If you want to call MVP a bonjwa in your head, fine whatever, but calling him one on boards that involve SC2 and BW is just going to end up badly, especially considering the state of SC2 balance, volatility, etc 2. The term doesn't just mean X player dominated X amount of time, it is also used to referenced people who revamped the game in a completely unpredictable and amazing way. (Boxer with micro, Oov and Nada with macro/builds, Saviour with the entire zerg race, Flash is kind of an exception, but he basically earned the term because he is the most talented RTS player of all time, and he still brought in a few new concepts and strats.) I mean, only an idiot would argue MVP isn't the best player in the world right now, but has he really revamped the meta-game in an astounding fashion? He is just incredibly solid, but innovative? Idk. FD, MC, and MKP are honestly the big innovaters so far, with a couple other exceptions. 3. The term is so delicate, so honorary, that it cannot just be tossed around like any other term. (Yes we can joke, but to actually call or discuss someone being a bonjwa is a huge deal.) MVP himself has said he shouldn't be compared to guys like Flash, at least not yet, that should be enough for now. MVP is probably the first "dominant player" of the SC2 era, but a bonjwa? Thats diving into a pool full of cement. Shit, I mean Bisu isn't even a bonjwa, and that guy revamped protoss vs zerg in such a way that his playstyle has been standard for 4 years now, but he wasn't able to continue his dominance, so he never "earned" the term. (Although he came close.)
I hate to nitpick a great post but how is MKP innovative at all? He is still trying to mass marine in TvT.
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my god what a disgustingly sick semi-final full of some godly sick nerd ballers  GOGO MVP AND JJAKJI!!! Also about the Bonjwa discussion, correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Bonjwa also have to do with insane dominance in OSL in particular? Example being Bisu who has actually revolutionized the game amazingly at one point with Corsair play but has yet to take an OSL. I could be wrong but I remember hearing this many times.
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On November 28 2011 11:49 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 10:46 1Eris1 wrote:On November 28 2011 10:31 bittman wrote:On November 28 2011 09:57 1Eris1 wrote:On November 28 2011 09:53 0ne wrote:If MVP wins this season can we finally say he is the first sc2 bonjwa? Stop, please stop. This shouldn't even be discussed for several more months if not years. If MVP had had a better MLG run I'd argue for it. As it is though, I can't. Which means unfortunately Brood War fanboys who believe bonjwa will even remotely mean the same thing in SC2 as it did in BW will be able to make cases with evidence whilst sc2 fans will point at players with decent runs but no real domination. As a general guide, in my books given the state of sc2 and the sheer number of tournaments, the bonjwa status will be something that can be argued for someone who dominates for a few months, not "years" or something around that. ...this isn't an arguement starter...but BW fanboys do tick me off at times! Everytime I see a thread like "It did xxxxxx better in BW" I shake my head. Like the football fans who refuse to even discuss video referees because that's not how it has been proven to work already =/ [/derailingthethreadmybaddontpayanyattentiontome] It's fine, just to people arguing about whether or not MVP is one or not... Remember a few things1. The term originated in Korea. TL does not decide who bonjwas are. If you want to call MVP a bonjwa in your head, fine whatever, but calling him one on boards that involve SC2 and BW is just going to end up badly, especially considering the state of SC2 balance, volatility, etc 2. The term doesn't just mean X player dominated X amount of time, it is also used to referenced people who revamped the game in a completely unpredictable and amazing way. (Boxer with micro, Oov and Nada with macro/builds, Saviour with the entire zerg race, Flash is kind of an exception, but he basically earned the term because he is the most talented RTS player of all time, and he still brought in a few new concepts and strats.) I mean, only an idiot would argue MVP isn't the best player in the world right now, but has he really revamped the meta-game in an astounding fashion? He is just incredibly solid, but innovative? Idk. FD, MC, and MKP are honestly the big innovaters so far, with a couple other exceptions. 3. The term is so delicate, so honorary, that it cannot just be tossed around like any other term. (Yes we can joke, but to actually call or discuss someone being a bonjwa is a huge deal.) MVP himself has said he shouldn't be compared to guys like Flash, at least not yet, that should be enough for now. MVP is probably the first "dominant player" of the SC2 era, but a bonjwa? Thats diving into a pool full of cement. Shit, I mean Bisu isn't even a bonjwa, and that guy revamped protoss vs zerg in such a way that his playstyle has been standard for 4 years now, but he wasn't able to continue his dominance, so he never "earned" the term. (Although he came close.) I hate to nitpick a great post but how is MKP innovative at all? He is still trying to mass marine in TvT.
Mkp completely redefined tvz. Some of the builds we use today are extensions of the builds he showed us back in season 2.2 rax fe, 1 rax fe etc. Also popularized marine splitting
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Hoping for Oz and Leenock finals.
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On November 28 2011 10:46 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 10:31 bittman wrote:On November 28 2011 09:57 1Eris1 wrote:On November 28 2011 09:53 0ne wrote:If MVP wins this season can we finally say he is the first sc2 bonjwa? Stop, please stop. This shouldn't even be discussed for several more months if not years. If MVP had had a better MLG run I'd argue for it. As it is though, I can't. Which means unfortunately Brood War fanboys who believe bonjwa will even remotely mean the same thing in SC2 as it did in BW will be able to make cases with evidence whilst sc2 fans will point at players with decent runs but no real domination. As a general guide, in my books given the state of sc2 and the sheer number of tournaments, the bonjwa status will be something that can be argued for someone who dominates for a few months, not "years" or something around that. ...this isn't an arguement starter...but BW fanboys do tick me off at times! Everytime I see a thread like "It did xxxxxx better in BW" I shake my head. Like the football fans who refuse to even discuss video referees because that's not how it has been proven to work already =/ [/derailingthethreadmybaddontpayanyattentiontome] It's fine, just to people arguing about whether or not MVP is one or not... Remember a few things1. The term originated in Korea. TL does not decide who bonjwas are. If you want to call MVP a bonjwa in your head, fine whatever, but calling him one on boards that involve SC2 and BW is just going to end up badly, especially considering the state of SC2 balance, volatility, etc 2. The term doesn't just mean X player dominated X amount of time, it is also used to referenced people who revamped the game in a completely unpredictable and amazing way. (Boxer with micro, Oov and Nada with macro/builds, Saviour with the entire zerg race, Flash is kind of an exception, but he basically earned the term because he is the most talented RTS player of all time, and he still brought in a few new concepts and strats.) I mean, only an idiot would argue MVP isn't the best player in the world right now, but has he really revamped the meta-game in an astounding fashion? He is just incredibly solid, but innovative? Idk. FD, MC, and MKP are honestly the big innovaters so far, with a couple other exceptions. 3. The term is so delicate, so honorary, that it cannot just be tossed around like any other term. (Yes we can joke, but to actually call or discuss someone being a bonjwa is a huge deal.) MVP himself has said he shouldn't be compared to guys like Flash, at least not yet, that should be enough for now. MVP is probably the first "dominant player" of the SC2 era, but a bonjwa? Thats diving into a pool full of cement. Shit, I mean Bisu isn't even a bonjwa, and that guy revamped protoss vs zerg in such a way that his playstyle has been standard for 4 years now, but he wasn't able to continue his dominance, so he never "earned" the term. (Although he came close.)
This is so true... people.. before discussing the term, please remember that even Jaedong is not considered a Bonjwa by koreans.
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On November 28 2011 12:11 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 11:49 Dodgin wrote:On November 28 2011 10:46 1Eris1 wrote:On November 28 2011 10:31 bittman wrote:On November 28 2011 09:57 1Eris1 wrote:On November 28 2011 09:53 0ne wrote:If MVP wins this season can we finally say he is the first sc2 bonjwa? Stop, please stop. This shouldn't even be discussed for several more months if not years. If MVP had had a better MLG run I'd argue for it. As it is though, I can't. Which means unfortunately Brood War fanboys who believe bonjwa will even remotely mean the same thing in SC2 as it did in BW will be able to make cases with evidence whilst sc2 fans will point at players with decent runs but no real domination. As a general guide, in my books given the state of sc2 and the sheer number of tournaments, the bonjwa status will be something that can be argued for someone who dominates for a few months, not "years" or something around that. ...this isn't an arguement starter...but BW fanboys do tick me off at times! Everytime I see a thread like "It did xxxxxx better in BW" I shake my head. Like the football fans who refuse to even discuss video referees because that's not how it has been proven to work already =/ [/derailingthethreadmybaddontpayanyattentiontome] It's fine, just to people arguing about whether or not MVP is one or not... Remember a few things1. The term originated in Korea. TL does not decide who bonjwas are. If you want to call MVP a bonjwa in your head, fine whatever, but calling him one on boards that involve SC2 and BW is just going to end up badly, especially considering the state of SC2 balance, volatility, etc 2. The term doesn't just mean X player dominated X amount of time, it is also used to referenced people who revamped the game in a completely unpredictable and amazing way. (Boxer with micro, Oov and Nada with macro/builds, Saviour with the entire zerg race, Flash is kind of an exception, but he basically earned the term because he is the most talented RTS player of all time, and he still brought in a few new concepts and strats.) I mean, only an idiot would argue MVP isn't the best player in the world right now, but has he really revamped the meta-game in an astounding fashion? He is just incredibly solid, but innovative? Idk. FD, MC, and MKP are honestly the big innovaters so far, with a couple other exceptions. 3. The term is so delicate, so honorary, that it cannot just be tossed around like any other term. (Yes we can joke, but to actually call or discuss someone being a bonjwa is a huge deal.) MVP himself has said he shouldn't be compared to guys like Flash, at least not yet, that should be enough for now. MVP is probably the first "dominant player" of the SC2 era, but a bonjwa? Thats diving into a pool full of cement. Shit, I mean Bisu isn't even a bonjwa, and that guy revamped protoss vs zerg in such a way that his playstyle has been standard for 4 years now, but he wasn't able to continue his dominance, so he never "earned" the term. (Although he came close.) I hate to nitpick a great post but how is MKP innovative at all? He is still trying to mass marine in TvT. Mkp completely redefined tvz. Some of the builds we use today are extensions of the builds he showed us back in season 2.2 rax fe, 1 rax fe etc. Also popularized marine splitting
1 rax FE was the standard in all match ups in SC1
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On November 28 2011 12:26 zerious wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 12:11 rysecake wrote:On November 28 2011 11:49 Dodgin wrote:On November 28 2011 10:46 1Eris1 wrote:On November 28 2011 10:31 bittman wrote:On November 28 2011 09:57 1Eris1 wrote:On November 28 2011 09:53 0ne wrote:If MVP wins this season can we finally say he is the first sc2 bonjwa? Stop, please stop. This shouldn't even be discussed for several more months if not years. If MVP had had a better MLG run I'd argue for it. As it is though, I can't. Which means unfortunately Brood War fanboys who believe bonjwa will even remotely mean the same thing in SC2 as it did in BW will be able to make cases with evidence whilst sc2 fans will point at players with decent runs but no real domination. As a general guide, in my books given the state of sc2 and the sheer number of tournaments, the bonjwa status will be something that can be argued for someone who dominates for a few months, not "years" or something around that. ...this isn't an arguement starter...but BW fanboys do tick me off at times! Everytime I see a thread like "It did xxxxxx better in BW" I shake my head. Like the football fans who refuse to even discuss video referees because that's not how it has been proven to work already =/ [/derailingthethreadmybaddontpayanyattentiontome] It's fine, just to people arguing about whether or not MVP is one or not... Remember a few things1. The term originated in Korea. TL does not decide who bonjwas are. If you want to call MVP a bonjwa in your head, fine whatever, but calling him one on boards that involve SC2 and BW is just going to end up badly, especially considering the state of SC2 balance, volatility, etc 2. The term doesn't just mean X player dominated X amount of time, it is also used to referenced people who revamped the game in a completely unpredictable and amazing way. (Boxer with micro, Oov and Nada with macro/builds, Saviour with the entire zerg race, Flash is kind of an exception, but he basically earned the term because he is the most talented RTS player of all time, and he still brought in a few new concepts and strats.) I mean, only an idiot would argue MVP isn't the best player in the world right now, but has he really revamped the meta-game in an astounding fashion? He is just incredibly solid, but innovative? Idk. FD, MC, and MKP are honestly the big innovaters so far, with a couple other exceptions. 3. The term is so delicate, so honorary, that it cannot just be tossed around like any other term. (Yes we can joke, but to actually call or discuss someone being a bonjwa is a huge deal.) MVP himself has said he shouldn't be compared to guys like Flash, at least not yet, that should be enough for now. MVP is probably the first "dominant player" of the SC2 era, but a bonjwa? Thats diving into a pool full of cement. Shit, I mean Bisu isn't even a bonjwa, and that guy revamped protoss vs zerg in such a way that his playstyle has been standard for 4 years now, but he wasn't able to continue his dominance, so he never "earned" the term. (Although he came close.) I hate to nitpick a great post but how is MKP innovative at all? He is still trying to mass marine in TvT. Mkp completely redefined tvz. Some of the builds we use today are extensions of the builds he showed us back in season 2.2 rax fe, 1 rax fe etc. Also popularized marine splitting 1 rax FE was the standard in all match ups in SC1
True, but it took some time for players to figure out how to do it safely in sc2. Mkp being one of the few to show the way. When to double gas, when to tech etc.
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Liquibet may prove me wrong but I feel like these are the most competitively balanced code S semifinals we've ever had. Any 4 of these players can be reasonably expected to make the finals. Usually the guy playing MVP is expected to roll over and die but Leenock has shown he can beat MVP straight up. MVP is the better player but the map pool is a bit zerg favored so they should be 50:50. I have no idea about Oz and Jjakji in fact I haven't even seen any of Jjakji's games but he 3-0'd Puzzle you can't count him out.
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On November 28 2011 11:49 Dodgin wrote:
I hate to nitpick a great post but how is MKP innovative at all? He is still trying to mass marine in TvT.
Mostly via his 2 rax pressure+marine splitting vs Z. It is a staple in TvZ now. Had it been done before? Yes, but MKP refined it and brought it to the light.
Unfortuneately he hasn't been very innovative since then.
Other innovaters would be
FD revamping zerg in general, macro, harassment, baneling usage
MC revamping protoss timings, mostly the 6-7 gate in PvZ and PvT (and, I'm not 100% sure, but I think he was the first guy to really show the power of sentrys and utilize them to their full potential)
There are a couple others, not as major though
As for MVP, MVP was the first great macro terran, but he was not the first macro terran. There is a difference. (He did not come up with any major builds, just executed the current ones very well)
Honestly, we should just come up with a different term for SC2 players. SC2 is too different and too volatile a game right now.
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jjakji 3 > 1 oz
mvp 3 > 1 leenock
:D!
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EPT
