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On November 15 2011 21:56 teamamerica wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 21:50 Velicia wrote:On November 15 2011 21:45 teamamerica wrote:On November 15 2011 21:42 Herper wrote:On November 15 2011 21:41 bittman wrote:
Protoss is outexpanding Terran?
Did terrans forget how TvP worked in less than one season? This is a new map so yea, biggest one yet too. Hard to expand a lot when bases can just be wiped out by 10 zlots when your army is out of position. This is just hilarious. Get your Medivac drops going son. Lol...I mean after 3+ bases when toss is on 10+ gateways. Map is huge and warpin means almost all drops just die (esp with dt tech out). Vs sending units across the huge map for a terran, whose army can't be warped in anywhere to deal with small groups of units. I'm so confused as to wtf you're talking about. EDIT: Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 21:56 casualman wrote:On November 15 2011 21:51 s3rp wrote:On November 15 2011 21:48 Imbattable wrote:On November 15 2011 21:45 teamamerica wrote:On November 15 2011 21:42 Herper wrote:On November 15 2011 21:41 bittman wrote:
Protoss is outexpanding Terran?
Did terrans forget how TvP worked in less than one season? This is a new map so yea, biggest one yet too. Hard to expand a lot when bases can just be wiped out by 10 zlots when your army is out of position. 8 Marauders is just as, if not more dangerous, though more gas intense for terran (which IS weird considering the usual dependency on gas by toss). Base sniping is one of terrans strength imo. The Map is so big that flying / running to snipe/defend a base takes too much time. Warpin is basically instant reeinforcement. If you're out of position in this Map as Terran well too bad . No, it doesn't. The time it takes to ship a unit to drop a base doesn't matter because of parity. Protoss has to send probes to make pylons and fly over warp prisms in order to warp-in units near terran bases. If the Terran is not catching proxy pylons and warp prisms, it's exactly the same as a protoss neglecting dropships. Both will be punished. There's really no excuse for not being able to defend expansions as any race. All a player needs to do in that scenario is split their army. And to your last statement, any race caught out of position on any map is incredibly devastating. Terran may be the least prone to this though due to the tools that Terran has (sensor towers, scans). Getting caught off guard is just sloppy play that deserves to be punished. LOL first of all, sending probes across the map to make pylons isn't exactly a skill, nor is flying a warp prism. And with that when you see they're out of position, you instantly can send units (vs having supply tied up beforehand). And on a map like that you can straight up walk across the map, you don't need a warp prism. Sensors towers are great but when there are 10 zlots going to your corner expansion, do you send enough of your army back to easily deal with it, and be vunerable. If you send 10 marauders you'll need to kite it the whole time, which is fine except if the toss also moves in on the front. If you send a lot of bio so you can kill those chargelots without kiting then your front can just be pushed. When you're dropping with 2 medivacs late game a warp in cycle is enough almost every time. So how is it as devastating for a toss? Why are you trying to argue that it's harder for Terran to be caught with his army out of his base when Toss has warpin and zerg has faster units. I'm not saying it's imba because of this, it's just how it works.
You're not even addressing my issues. Terran double drops a protoss expansion, Protoss is faced with the exact same dilemma: warp in a bunch of units that will just be killed or overcommit to defending, thus opening himself up to a frontal push? And you say warp prism harass and making proxy pylons isn't a skill, but in the same vein medivac drops aren't a skill because they're exactly the same as warp prism drops. The difference is terran has the tools to know where everything is out to a certain radius on the map, meaning he never should be caught off guard. When Terran has legal maphacks I don't think its very difficult to stop harass.
Terran has trouble defending zealot harass because they neglect to put 1 bunker in each mineral line like you saw happy do, he just didn't commit enough to defend lategame. Terran isn't forced to micro, its just an option.
Nothing you're arguing as making toss harass better than terran harass is unique to toss. I really don't think the common opinion in sc2 is that protoss harass > terran harass.
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On November 15 2011 22:09 westley10 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 22:07 pdd wrote:
Oh damn, MMA vs Oz should be interesting to see if MMA has finally improved his TvP. Well said, especially after he beat MC in the previous round.
MMA fans gonna trash Oz when the day comes around, so might as well try talk about Oz in peace before next week comes around =p
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MMA vs MVP is profiling at the horizon again, but Oz will crush both and claim MC's old throne.
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On November 15 2011 22:10 bittman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 22:09 westley10 wrote:On November 15 2011 22:07 pdd wrote:
Oh damn, MMA vs Oz should be interesting to see if MMA has finally improved his TvP. Well said, especially after he beat MC in the previous round. MMA fans gonna trash Oz when the day comes around, so might as well try talk about Oz in peace before next week comes around =p
Unless Oz Tassadars MMA I don't see why anyone would trash him.
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Sad day. I really respect Killlers playstyle. He seems to have the most solid tvp style out there, which I think a lot of toss players could learn from. But well Oz isn't bad as well.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
On November 15 2011 22:10 bittman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 22:09 westley10 wrote:On November 15 2011 22:07 pdd wrote:
Oh damn, MMA vs Oz should be interesting to see if MMA has finally improved his TvP. Well said, especially after he beat MC in the previous round. MMA fans gonna trash Oz when the day comes around, so might as well try talk about Oz in peace before next week comes around =p
Hey, now cmon. I'm a super MMA fan, but I avoid trashing his opponents unless its genuinely bad play. I prefer if the opponent plays amazingly so MMA is behind
And then he plays his best :D
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On November 15 2011 22:09 westley10 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 22:07 pdd wrote:
Oh damn, MMA vs Oz should be interesting to see if MMA has finally improved his TvP. Well said, especially after he beat MC in the previous round.
That match showed nothing other than the fact that MC failed an 8 gate push against a couple of bunkers.
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lol thanks for all the replies, folks
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On November 15 2011 22:10 MrCon wrote:
MMA vs MVP is profiling at the horizon again, but Oz will crush both and claim MC's old throne.
Don't forget about Leenock dude, he could win against both MMA and MVP imo. alive will be a good warm-up for him.
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Poor Nestea... if he had beaten HuK and had the chance to play Leenock, he probably would have won the ZvZ, pushing him through.
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On November 15 2011 22:10 bittman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 22:09 westley10 wrote:On November 15 2011 22:07 pdd wrote:
Oh damn, MMA vs Oz should be interesting to see if MMA has finally improved his TvP. Well said, especially after he beat MC in the previous round. MMA fans gonna trash Oz when the day comes around, so might as well try talk about Oz in peace before next week comes around =p
Bullshit, we are not Idralisks or fans of Nestea
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On November 15 2011 22:12 Awesomeness wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 22:10 MrCon wrote:
MMA vs MVP is profiling at the horizon again, but Oz will crush both and claim MC's old throne. Don't forget about Leenock dude, he could win against both MMA and MVP imo. alive will be a good warm-up for him.
Oh yeah it's aLive vs Leenock <3 I hope odds will be good, I'll bet some money on the octopussy.
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On November 15 2011 22:11 Hassybaby wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 22:10 bittman wrote:On November 15 2011 22:09 westley10 wrote:On November 15 2011 22:07 pdd wrote:
Oh damn, MMA vs Oz should be interesting to see if MMA has finally improved his TvP. Well said, especially after he beat MC in the previous round. MMA fans gonna trash Oz when the day comes around, so might as well try talk about Oz in peace before next week comes around =p Hey, now cmon. I'm a super MMA fan, but I avoid trashing his opponents unless its genuinely bad play. I prefer if the opponent plays amazingly so MMA is behind And then he plays his best :D
Apologies, a generic stereotype was applied to MMA fans in my mind after MVP v MMA and Polt v MMA finals where non-MMA players were basically trash compared to his genius, or something crazy like that.
Not Nestea fan's level though. MMA fans don't acuse him of match fixing for brain farts! hahaha =D
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
On November 15 2011 22:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Poor Nestea... if he had beaten HuK and had the chance to play Leenock, he probably would have won the ZvZ, pushing him through.
Poor is the word I would use as well, but in different context.
At least the Happy/SangHo game was interesting, though it was still a standard PvT macro game. The storms were nicer compared to what we've seen recently, and the drops were a lovely touch
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On November 15 2011 22:07 Asha` wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 22:06 Elem wrote:On November 15 2011 22:05 Asha` wrote:
Booooooooooooooo
Killer =(
Man, I don't think I care about anyone in the top8 of this seasons GSL so far really. Maybe Leenock I suppose.
Hopefully MVP advances. Doesn't matter - GanZi is going to take this season no matter what. Sorry Elem, but that's just not happening. Just you wait and see, filthy non-believer. D:<
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
Just as a closing note: Holy crap we got the LR to 181 pages today. Nae bad guys
Then again, it was at like 140 during group 1 
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My thoughts are not with Nestea of Killer but with Fionn.
Guy can't catch a break with predictions!
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On November 15 2011 22:10 casualman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 21:56 teamamerica wrote:On November 15 2011 21:50 Velicia wrote:On November 15 2011 21:45 teamamerica wrote:On November 15 2011 21:42 Herper wrote:On November 15 2011 21:41 bittman wrote:
Protoss is outexpanding Terran?
Did terrans forget how TvP worked in less than one season? This is a new map so yea, biggest one yet too. Hard to expand a lot when bases can just be wiped out by 10 zlots when your army is out of position. This is just hilarious. Get your Medivac drops going son. Lol...I mean after 3+ bases when toss is on 10+ gateways. Map is huge and warpin means almost all drops just die (esp with dt tech out). Vs sending units across the huge map for a terran, whose army can't be warped in anywhere to deal with small groups of units. I'm so confused as to wtf you're talking about. EDIT: On November 15 2011 21:56 casualman wrote:On November 15 2011 21:51 s3rp wrote:On November 15 2011 21:48 Imbattable wrote:On November 15 2011 21:45 teamamerica wrote:On November 15 2011 21:42 Herper wrote:On November 15 2011 21:41 bittman wrote:
Protoss is outexpanding Terran?
Did terrans forget how TvP worked in less than one season? This is a new map so yea, biggest one yet too. Hard to expand a lot when bases can just be wiped out by 10 zlots when your army is out of position. 8 Marauders is just as, if not more dangerous, though more gas intense for terran (which IS weird considering the usual dependency on gas by toss). Base sniping is one of terrans strength imo. The Map is so big that flying / running to snipe/defend a base takes too much time. Warpin is basically instant reeinforcement. If you're out of position in this Map as Terran well too bad . No, it doesn't. The time it takes to ship a unit to drop a base doesn't matter because of parity. Protoss has to send probes to make pylons and fly over warp prisms in order to warp-in units near terran bases. If the Terran is not catching proxy pylons and warp prisms, it's exactly the same as a protoss neglecting dropships. Both will be punished. There's really no excuse for not being able to defend expansions as any race. All a player needs to do in that scenario is split their army. And to your last statement, any race caught out of position on any map is incredibly devastating. Terran may be the least prone to this though due to the tools that Terran has (sensor towers, scans). Getting caught off guard is just sloppy play that deserves to be punished. LOL first of all, sending probes across the map to make pylons isn't exactly a skill, nor is flying a warp prism. And with that when you see they're out of position, you instantly can send units (vs having supply tied up beforehand). And on a map like that you can straight up walk across the map, you don't need a warp prism. Sensors towers are great but when there are 10 zlots going to your corner expansion, do you send enough of your army back to easily deal with it, and be vunerable. If you send 10 marauders you'll need to kite it the whole time, which is fine except if the toss also moves in on the front. If you send a lot of bio so you can kill those chargelots without kiting then your front can just be pushed. When you're dropping with 2 medivacs late game a warp in cycle is enough almost every time. So how is it as devastating for a toss? Why are you trying to argue that it's harder for Terran to be caught with his army out of his base when Toss has warpin and zerg has faster units. I'm not saying it's imba because of this, it's just how it works. You're not even addressing my issues. Terran double drops a protoss expansion, Protoss is faced with the exact same dilemma: warp in a bunch of units that will just be killed or overcommit to defending, thus opening himself up to a frontal push? And you say warp prism harass and making proxy pylons isn't a skill, but in the same vein medivac drops aren't a skill because they're exactly the same as warp prism drops. The difference is terran has the tools to know where everything is out to a certain radius on the map, meaning he never should be caught off guard. When Terran has legal maphacks I don't think its very difficult to stop harass. Terran has trouble defending zealot harass because they neglect to put 1 bunker in each mineral line like you saw happy do, he just didn't commit enough to defend lategame. Terran isn't forced to micro, its just an option. Nothing you're arguing as making toss harass better than terran harass is unique to toss. I really don't think the common opinion in sc2 is that protoss harass > terran harass.
He had a PF. I'm not sure how a bunker holds off a ton of zlots though. And I'm saying it's easier cause for the toss, he can warp in the units when the drop gets spotted, vs sending them from his army and sending them back from their main army and back. Also, bio gets more efficient in bigger numbers (10 zlots vs 10 maruders is a different fight then 50 zlots vs 50 maruders).
I agree early game Terran has more harass options but I'm talking about beyond 3 bases. It's like TvZ vs TvP on taldarim - in TvZ you can start to drop everywhere as Zerg gets more and more spread out but in TvP as toss gets spread out, they also get a fuckton of gateways that make drops less effective.
Before all 111 bullshit started very vP, T was struggling vs Toss. Even MVP worst matchup is vP.
EDIT: Anyway, this is all just what I think and we'll have to see how winrates play out on huge maps that are layed out like this. After 50 games if the winning percentage for toss is still the same, can you really say you enjoy seeing this map?
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Hahaha, Nestea, wow. I left right at the start of the Huk vs Nestea game thinking it was a complete win for Nestea. Geez.
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On November 15 2011 22:10 casualman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 21:56 teamamerica wrote:On November 15 2011 21:50 Velicia wrote:On November 15 2011 21:45 teamamerica wrote:On November 15 2011 21:42 Herper wrote:On November 15 2011 21:41 bittman wrote:
Protoss is outexpanding Terran?
Did terrans forget how TvP worked in less than one season? This is a new map so yea, biggest one yet too. Hard to expand a lot when bases can just be wiped out by 10 zlots when your army is out of position. This is just hilarious. Get your Medivac drops going son. Lol...I mean after 3+ bases when toss is on 10+ gateways. Map is huge and warpin means almost all drops just die (esp with dt tech out). Vs sending units across the huge map for a terran, whose army can't be warped in anywhere to deal with small groups of units. I'm so confused as to wtf you're talking about. EDIT: On November 15 2011 21:56 casualman wrote:On November 15 2011 21:51 s3rp wrote:On November 15 2011 21:48 Imbattable wrote:On November 15 2011 21:45 teamamerica wrote:On November 15 2011 21:42 Herper wrote:On November 15 2011 21:41 bittman wrote:
Protoss is outexpanding Terran?
Did terrans forget how TvP worked in less than one season? This is a new map so yea, biggest one yet too. Hard to expand a lot when bases can just be wiped out by 10 zlots when your army is out of position. 8 Marauders is just as, if not more dangerous, though more gas intense for terran (which IS weird considering the usual dependency on gas by toss). Base sniping is one of terrans strength imo. The Map is so big that flying / running to snipe/defend a base takes too much time. Warpin is basically instant reeinforcement. If you're out of position in this Map as Terran well too bad . No, it doesn't. The time it takes to ship a unit to drop a base doesn't matter because of parity. Protoss has to send probes to make pylons and fly over warp prisms in order to warp-in units near terran bases. If the Terran is not catching proxy pylons and warp prisms, it's exactly the same as a protoss neglecting dropships. Both will be punished. There's really no excuse for not being able to defend expansions as any race. All a player needs to do in that scenario is split their army. And to your last statement, any race caught out of position on any map is incredibly devastating. Terran may be the least prone to this though due to the tools that Terran has (sensor towers, scans). Getting caught off guard is just sloppy play that deserves to be punished. LOL first of all, sending probes across the map to make pylons isn't exactly a skill, nor is flying a warp prism. And with that when you see they're out of position, you instantly can send units (vs having supply tied up beforehand). And on a map like that you can straight up walk across the map, you don't need a warp prism. Sensors towers are great but when there are 10 zlots going to your corner expansion, do you send enough of your army back to easily deal with it, and be vunerable. If you send 10 marauders you'll need to kite it the whole time, which is fine except if the toss also moves in on the front. If you send a lot of bio so you can kill those chargelots without kiting then your front can just be pushed. When you're dropping with 2 medivacs late game a warp in cycle is enough almost every time. So how is it as devastating for a toss? Why are you trying to argue that it's harder for Terran to be caught with his army out of his base when Toss has warpin and zerg has faster units. I'm not saying it's imba because of this, it's just how it works. You're not even addressing my issues. Terran double drops a protoss expansion, Protoss is faced with the exact same dilemma: warp in a bunch of units that will just be killed or overcommit to defending, thus opening himself up to a frontal push? And you say warp prism harass and making proxy pylons isn't a skill, but in the same vein medivac drops aren't a skill because they're exactly the same as warp prism drops. The difference is terran has the tools to know where everything is out to a certain radius on the map, meaning he never should be caught off guard. When Terran has legal maphacks I don't think its very difficult to stop harass. Terran has trouble defending zealot harass because they neglect to put 1 bunker in each mineral line like you saw happy do, he just didn't commit enough to defend lategame. Terran isn't forced to micro, its just an option. Nothing you're arguing as making toss harass better than terran harass is unique to toss. I really don't think the common opinion in sc2 is that protoss harass > terran harass.
On thing Happy build a planetary that normally is enough 1 bunkers with units he hadn't had yet wouldn't have changed anything. This happened after a huge battle both sides remacroing . Killer just remacroed near a Terran base to kill it. On a big Map there's not really anything you can do about that . You can't stop every single proxy Pylon with that much space to cover you need to scan 10 time or build at least 5 sensor towers which would defeat the purpose. Like teamamerica said beyond 3 bases dropplay is easier to defend then warpins since the toss will have enough warpgates to react.
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EPT
