Please keep the following things out of this topic:
-Caster/Stream/player bashing; -Imbalance/race whine; -LoL vs the world arguments; -'Omfg cant believe people aren't watching SPL finals' comments; -any other assorted offtopic negativism and arguments.
Enjoy this free multiday/multigame event that has been provided to you. Share your enthusiasm for the games!
Feel free to shoot me a PM or query me on IRC for any questions or comments. Have fun! ~Nyovne
[special edit: Any more derailing over the fact that someone made a Germany vs Poland WW2 joke after page 21 will be met with a week ban.]
On August 22 2011 03:12 chatuka wrote: [quote] good for you man. I think you are in the minority here so have fun. I'll root for the classier player which is MC>
MC is classier than whom, Puma? How do you draw this conclusion?
wow, you don't even know SC2 history?
how about Puma just doing some shady things to TSL. just back stabbing coach Lee. Never explained the EG situtation correctly or loudly enough for Lee to understand what EG wanted with Puma. Puma is the one at fault. I don't blame EG for wanting Puma. I don't blame coach lee for getting upset. Puma should have communicated the situation much better and didn't. which makes him a you know what in my estimation.
MC: always reaches out to the foreign community. ballsy and entertaining to watch. Never did BM moves to any of his team-mates or sponsors or the game..
this is so easy,and you can't even understand my points.
MC is far classier than Puma. it's not even a contest of debate.
Joke ?
Puma talked to his coach before, problem was his coached cried in a interview cause he didn't sign a contract and rain, tester and fruitdealer also left, was very childish move by coach lee, but he has had so much drama with sc2 con aswell for treating his players badly.
btw you know puma didn't have a salary, right ?
Puma never bmed anyone, MC made the throat slash to idra and several disrespectful things to opponents after winning or before games, like slamming booth, saying his opponents are easy, etc
Never liked MC
MC is just an entertainer man.. that's theater.
I don't think Puma did. I remember the reports of why Puma felt uncomfortable at the TSL after the NASL finals.. He didn't tell the coach quickly which is BM. Nor was there a team discussion on Puma's part with coach lee.
I'm not bashing Puma. All I am saying is that MC is a classier player, style wise and person wise.
that's how I think, and I think lot's of people will agree with me here.
Not me, you're a moron.
Not telling your coach immediately is BM? Fuck that. His coach bitched and played the pity card to the media before anything was signed. What if that jeopardized Puma's contract with EG? If Coach Lee really cared about his players he would want what's best for them and have kept his mouth shut. Did Nazgul whine and complain about Huk leaving before anything was finalized? NO.
If I was in Puma's position I would have flipped him off and packed my shit immediately.
1.there is no need to use curses. No where am I attacking your character or slandering you dude. take a chill pill
I'm allowed to have my opinions of Puma and his relationship with TSL. I read the threads as much as you.
I do remember full well that Puma was hiding something from Coach Lee. the fact that coach lee bitched and complained to the press was BM by himself. But that was after the fact.
Get your facts straight, before you start calling other people morons. I never insulted you until now. You started this flame
Facts? The only facts we have are from Coach Lee's weepy testimony to PlayXP and even then the only thing he said was that he noticed Puma sighing a lot. Puma's a grown man and he's not even contracted to TSL. If I was weighing an offer from a competitor the last thing I want to do is talk to my manager.
TL:DR - you're still a moron
getting heated over some player that has no influence over your life.. Look who the fool truly is dude. take a big look at mirror and you'll see who the dunce is.
I am not going to be that passionate over some Korean player that BM a team. I just won't root for him or call him a classy player. that is my right. Most people will agree. You can have yours. No one is denying it.. so take a chill pill and rest in the sun, you'll feel better afterwards.
1.. BTW it's the way he handled TSL which was BM. I am not against Korean players leaving to foreing teams. THAT is a good thing. Just be polite and grateful to the coach of TSL. I bet the coach would;ve handled the situation differently if Puma was just more reponsible, which he wasn't at that point in time.
Ugh back to this again. Back it up, how did Puma handle it wrong? Waiting to tell his coach? That's a pretty pathetic argument.
I don't know everything that happened. I do know something did happen between Puma and Mr. Lee which pissed the coach off.
the way the coach handled it was inappropriate response to the Puma situation. I agree.
You might be right. If the worst thing Puma did was wait too long to tell the coach, that delay in action by Puma isn't bad at all, not polite. I do think more happened, which we aren't privy to that kind of info.
So yes, I probably am jumping the gun on Puma. Maybe I need to calm down as well.
I could be right and Puma might have completely mismanaged the communications between EG and TSL which was Puma's reponsibility. If that is true, which probable, my beliefs about Puma will be substantiated.
On August 22 2011 02:35 Fig wrote: wow so sad when the best toss player in the world can't beat 1/1/1. At least there is bound to be a patch soon Always look for the silver lining.
Im sorry but blizz wont nerf terran. I think we need a new morrow who will just 1/1/1 every game with toss till blizz nerf it or buff toss. I have no idea why all terrans dont do it every game. Is it a morality thing ? Clearly here is a build when decently executed will beat all tosses in the world and there is no good response and doesnt require toss to be 100 times better than terran to hold. PuMA cheesed his way to final win and people are saying he is good ? I saw nothing in this game from Puma that any terran in the world wont be capable off. He is just a random code B scrub who has trouble in korea since he sucks at TvT since everyone is a terran there. Let me see him beet MVP or bomber and I'll agree he is good. All he did is come out of korea to own non koreans .
I don't think Puma 1/1/1'd MC in the NASL finals. In fact, I remember him playing some pretty beastly games. Am I wrong? I kind of agree with your point about the 1/1/1's potency, but come on... you really think Flash's practice partner is a scrub?
The 1/1/1 looks unbeatable right now. Just like every other powerful build that's ever been discovered. And I agree that if a serious response isn't developed, it will constitute a serious imbalance. But you know full well there's going to be a delay between problem and solution. Abusive builds have come and gone, but pros can't be blamed for using them, and so far the vast majority of them have been solved through innovation, not patches.
1-1-1 has been around since the beta. It was potent then it's more potenter now due to constant protoss nerfs.
So you're taking issue with the word 'discovered', right? OK, conceded. Which nerfs in particular would you blame for this increased potency?
3 gate stargate and 4 gate were counters to 1/1/1 which is why it disappeared. Now VR only does 25 DPS to bunker/depot where terren is hold up teching instea of 41 DPS (with VR nerf). Now one round on units less comes to front door which is not enough to break it anymore with WG nerf.
I think the warp gate nerf will be undone. It didn't fix PvP at all. Didn't they nerf VR for the sake of team games?
The voidray speed upgrade was nerfed because of team games. The damage and charge nerf was due to 1v1 games.
On August 22 2011 02:35 Fig wrote: wow so sad when the best toss player in the world can't beat 1/1/1. At least there is bound to be a patch soon Always look for the silver lining.
Im sorry but blizz wont nerf terran. I think we need a new morrow who will just 1/1/1 every game with toss till blizz nerf it or buff toss. I have no idea why all terrans dont do it every game. Is it a morality thing ? Clearly here is a build when decently executed will beat all tosses in the world and there is no good response and doesnt require toss to be 100 times better than terran to hold. PuMA cheesed his way to final win and people are saying he is good ? I saw nothing in this game from Puma that any terran in the world wont be capable off. He is just a random code B scrub who has trouble in korea since he sucks at TvT since everyone is a terran there. Let me see him beet MVP or bomber and I'll agree he is good. All he did is come out of korea to own non koreans .
I don't think Puma 1/1/1'd MC in the NASL finals. In fact, I remember him playing some pretty beastly games. Am I wrong? I kind of agree with your point about the 1/1/1's potency, but come on... you really think Flash's practice partner is a scrub?
The 1/1/1 looks unbeatable right now. Just like every other powerful build that's ever been discovered. And I agree that if a serious response isn't developed, it will constitute a serious imbalance. But you know full well there's going to be a delay between problem and solution. Abusive builds have come and gone, but pros can't be blamed for using them, and so far the vast majority of them have been solved through innovation, not patches.
1-1-1 has been around since the beta. It was potent then it's more potenter now due to constant protoss nerfs.
So you're taking issue with the word 'discovered', right? OK, conceded. Which nerfs in particular would you blame for this increased potency?
3 gate stargate and 4 gate were counters to 1/1/1 which is why it disappeared. Now VR only does 25 DPS to bunker/depot where terren is hold up teching instea of 41 DPS (with VR nerf). Now one round on units less comes to front door which is not enough to break it anymore with WG nerf.
I think the warp gate nerf will be undone. It didn't fix PvP at all. Didn't they nerf VR for the sake of team games?
It won't change the fact that you shouldn't expand and make shit ton of probes when you think 1 base allin is coming. WG 20s nerf has nothing to do with it, would you stop with this wine already? You all so mad, just switch to terran and make blizzard patch it if you think it's broken, Your whining isn't doing any good.
On August 22 2011 02:59 chatuka wrote: how can people still defend Puma here. I can't say. he didn't play that great IMO and got lucky. MC played even worse and paid the price. I've never seen MC play that badly before.
As for the race balance, i'll trust blizzard and the maps to fix that problem.
as for personalities. Puma is boring, unattractive, and Disreputable with TSL I don't dislike EG BTW
MC: Brash, Bold, Competant player who makes bad mistakes against rival opponents. Perhaps him drinking less soda will help him think more clearly.
Who are you going to root for.. obviously the boss Protoss.
Rofl. Dude wtf. A win is a damn win and I cheered for Puma man I don't like MC nearly as much. And Everyone on teamliquid hates cheese so if anyone wins with it in a tournament the get immediate hate. Lets not forget MC was cheesy player not to long ago. And we have seen Puma beat MC before without cheesing so I would say that he deserved this win. Out classed.
good for you man. I think you are in the minority here so have fun. I'll root for the classier player which is MC>
MC is classier than whom, Puma? How do you draw this conclusion?
wow, you don't even know SC2 history?
how about Puma just doing some shady things to TSL. just back stabbing coach Lee. Never explained the EG situtation correctly or loudly enough for Lee to understand what EG wanted with Puma. Puma is the one at fault. I don't blame EG for wanting Puma. I don't blame coach lee for getting upset. Puma should have communicated the situation much better and didn't. which makes him a you know what in my estimation.
MC: always reaches out to the foreign community. ballsy and entertaining to watch. Never did BM moves to any of his team-mates or sponsors or the game..
this is so easy,and you can't even understand my points.
MC is far classier than Puma. it's not even a contest of debate.
Joke ?
Puma talked to his coach before, problem was his coached cried in a interview cause he didn't sign a contract and rain, tester and fruitdealer also left, was very childish move by coach lee, but he has had so much drama with sc2 con aswell for treating his players badly.
btw you know puma didn't have a salary, right ?
Puma never bmed anyone, MC made the throat slash to idra and several disrespectful things to opponents after winning or before games, like slamming booth, saying his opponents are easy, etc
Never liked MC
MC is just an entertainer man.. that's theater.
I don't think Puma did. I remember the reports of why Puma felt uncomfortable at the TSL after the NASL finals.. He didn't tell the coach quickly which is BM. Nor was there a team discussion on Puma's part with coach lee.
I'm not bashing Puma. All I am saying is that MC is a classier player, style wise and person wise.
that's how I think, and I think lot's of people will agree with me here.
Lol, seriously? He wasn't contracted nor was he getting paid. There's no need for a full team discussion. Just because a lot of people will agree with you doesn't mean you're right. I think you're also having trouble reading the guys posts you're responding to. Stay classy, lol.
Grats again PuMa.
Between coach and Puma. I never said the whole team.
I have no trouble responding to people. I am allowed to have my views on players, based on certain qualities they have. I am not going to bash them but i certainly won't root for them or make them out to be awesome dudes.
You can have yours views too. I never said people aren't allowed to see things differently. I still think MC is classier, and that's okay. you may think otherwise, that's fine.
Edit: This arguments tired, sorry I even got involved.
On August 22 2011 02:35 Fig wrote: wow so sad when the best toss player in the world can't beat 1/1/1. At least there is bound to be a patch soon Always look for the silver lining.
Im sorry but blizz wont nerf terran. I think we need a new morrow who will just 1/1/1 every game with toss till blizz nerf it or buff toss. I have no idea why all terrans dont do it every game. Is it a morality thing ? Clearly here is a build when decently executed will beat all tosses in the world and there is no good response and doesnt require toss to be 100 times better than terran to hold. PuMA cheesed his way to final win and people are saying he is good ? I saw nothing in this game from Puma that any terran in the world wont be capable off. He is just a random code B scrub who has trouble in korea since he sucks at TvT since everyone is a terran there. Let me see him beet MVP or bomber and I'll agree he is good. All he did is come out of korea to own non koreans .
I don't think Puma 1/1/1'd MC in the NASL finals. In fact, I remember him playing some pretty beastly games. Am I wrong? I kind of agree with your point about the 1/1/1's potency, but come on... you really think Flash's practice partner is a scrub?
The 1/1/1 looks unbeatable right now. Just like every other powerful build that's ever been discovered. And I agree that if a serious response isn't developed, it will constitute a serious imbalance. But you know full well there's going to be a delay between problem and solution. Abusive builds have come and gone, but pros can't be blamed for using them, and so far the vast majority of them have been solved through innovation, not patches.
1-1-1 has been around since the beta. It was potent then it's more potenter now due to constant protoss nerfs.
So you're taking issue with the word 'discovered', right? OK, conceded. Which nerfs in particular would you blame for this increased potency?
3 gate stargate and 4 gate were counters to 1/1/1 which is why it disappeared. Now VR only does 25 DPS to bunker/depot where terren is hold up teching instea of 41 DPS (with VR nerf). Now one round on units less comes to front door which is not enough to break it anymore with WG nerf.
I think the warp gate nerf will be undone. It didn't fix PvP at all. Didn't they nerf VR for the sake of team games?
It won't change the fact that you shouldn't expand and make shit ton of probes when you think 1 base allin is coming. WG 20s nerf has nothing to do with it, would you stop with this wine already? You all so mad, just switch to terran and make blizzard patch it if you think it's broken, Your whining isn't doing any good.
Your anti-balance whining isn't doing any good. I'm trying to have a discussion on why 1-1-1 is so strong lately.
On August 22 2011 03:21 Jaedong4thOSL wrote: [quote]
MC is classier than whom, Puma? How do you draw this conclusion?
wow, you don't even know SC2 history?
how about Puma just doing some shady things to TSL. just back stabbing coach Lee. Never explained the EG situtation correctly or loudly enough for Lee to understand what EG wanted with Puma. Puma is the one at fault. I don't blame EG for wanting Puma. I don't blame coach lee for getting upset. Puma should have communicated the situation much better and didn't. which makes him a you know what in my estimation.
MC: always reaches out to the foreign community. ballsy and entertaining to watch. Never did BM moves to any of his team-mates or sponsors or the game..
this is so easy,and you can't even understand my points.
MC is far classier than Puma. it's not even a contest of debate.
Joke ?
Puma talked to his coach before, problem was his coached cried in a interview cause he didn't sign a contract and rain, tester and fruitdealer also left, was very childish move by coach lee, but he has had so much drama with sc2 con aswell for treating his players badly.
btw you know puma didn't have a salary, right ?
Puma never bmed anyone, MC made the throat slash to idra and several disrespectful things to opponents after winning or before games, like slamming booth, saying his opponents are easy, etc
Never liked MC
MC is just an entertainer man.. that's theater.
I don't think Puma did. I remember the reports of why Puma felt uncomfortable at the TSL after the NASL finals.. He didn't tell the coach quickly which is BM. Nor was there a team discussion on Puma's part with coach lee.
I'm not bashing Puma. All I am saying is that MC is a classier player, style wise and person wise.
that's how I think, and I think lot's of people will agree with me here.
Not me, you're a moron.
Not telling your coach immediately is BM? Fuck that. His coach bitched and played the pity card to the media before anything was signed. What if that jeopardized Puma's contract with EG? If Coach Lee really cared about his players he would want what's best for them and have kept his mouth shut. Did Nazgul whine and complain about Huk leaving before anything was finalized? NO.
If I was in Puma's position I would have flipped him off and packed my shit immediately.
1.there is no need to use curses. No where am I attacking your character or slandering you dude. take a chill pill
I'm allowed to have my opinions of Puma and his relationship with TSL. I read the threads as much as you.
I do remember full well that Puma was hiding something from Coach Lee. the fact that coach lee bitched and complained to the press was BM by himself. But that was after the fact.
Get your facts straight, before you start calling other people morons. I never insulted you until now. You started this flame
Facts? The only facts we have are from Coach Lee's weepy testimony to PlayXP and even then the only thing he said was that he noticed Puma sighing a lot. Puma's a grown man and he's not even contracted to TSL. If I was weighing an offer from a competitor the last thing I want to do is talk to my manager.
TL:DR - you're still a moron
getting heated over some player that has no influence over your life.. Look who the fool truly is dude. take a big look at mirror and you'll see who the dunce is.
I am not going to be that passionate over some Korean player that BM a team. I just won't root for him or call him a classy player. that is my right. Most people will agree. You can have yours. No one is denying it.. so take a chill pill and rest in the sun, you'll feel better afterwards.
1.. BTW it's the way he handled TSL which was BM. I am not against Korean players leaving to foreing teams. THAT is a good thing. Just be polite and grateful to the coach of TSL. I bet the coach would;ve handled the situation differently if Puma was just more reponsible, which he wasn't at that point in time.
Ugh back to this again. Back it up, how did Puma handle it wrong? Waiting to tell his coach? That's a pretty pathetic argument.
I don't know everything that happened. I do know something did happen between Puma and Mr. Lee which pissed the coach off.
the way the coach handled it was inappropriate response to the Puma situation. I agree.
You might be right. If the worst thing Puma did was wait too long to tell the coach, that delay in action by Puma isn't bad at all, not polite. I do think more happened, which we aren't privy to that kind of info.
So yes, I probably am jumping the gun on Puma. Maybe I need to calm down as well.
I could be right and Puma might have completely mismanaged the communications between EG and TSL which was Puma's reponsibility. If that is true, which probable, my beliefs about Puma will be substantiated.
Cool, I'm glad you're a big enough man to admit that. Good day sir.
On August 22 2011 02:35 Fig wrote: wow so sad when the best toss player in the world can't beat 1/1/1. At least there is bound to be a patch soon Always look for the silver lining.
Im sorry but blizz wont nerf terran. I think we need a new morrow who will just 1/1/1 every game with toss till blizz nerf it or buff toss. I have no idea why all terrans dont do it every game. Is it a morality thing ? Clearly here is a build when decently executed will beat all tosses in the world and there is no good response and doesnt require toss to be 100 times better than terran to hold. PuMA cheesed his way to final win and people are saying he is good ? I saw nothing in this game from Puma that any terran in the world wont be capable off. He is just a random code B scrub who has trouble in korea since he sucks at TvT since everyone is a terran there. Let me see him beet MVP or bomber and I'll agree he is good. All he did is come out of korea to own non koreans .
I don't think Puma 1/1/1'd MC in the NASL finals. In fact, I remember him playing some pretty beastly games. Am I wrong? I kind of agree with your point about the 1/1/1's potency, but come on... you really think Flash's practice partner is a scrub?
The 1/1/1 looks unbeatable right now. Just like every other powerful build that's ever been discovered. And I agree that if a serious response isn't developed, it will constitute a serious imbalance. But you know full well there's going to be a delay between problem and solution. Abusive builds have come and gone, but pros can't be blamed for using them, and so far the vast majority of them have been solved through innovation, not patches.
1-1-1 has been around since the beta. It was potent then it's more potenter now due to constant protoss nerfs.
So you're taking issue with the word 'discovered', right? OK, conceded. Which nerfs in particular would you blame for this increased potency?
3 gate stargate and 4 gate were counters to 1/1/1 which is why it disappeared. Now VR only does 25 DPS to bunker/depot where terren is hold up teching instea of 41 DPS (with VR nerf). Now one round on units less comes to front door which is not enough to break it anymore with WG nerf.
I think the warp gate nerf will be undone. It didn't fix PvP at all. Didn't they nerf VR for the sake of team games?
It won't change the fact that you shouldn't expand and make shit ton of probes when you think 1 base allin is coming. WG 20s nerf has nothing to do with it, would you stop with this wine already? You all so mad, just switch to terran and make blizzard patch it if you think it's broken, Your whining isn't doing any good.
I personally don't care about the 1-1-1 build or think it is imbalanced, but if you read any LR thread or strategy thread on the 1-1-1, you would know that expanding is one of the only ways to try to beat the build. It is not viable to stay on one base against the 1-1-1.
On August 22 2011 02:59 chatuka wrote: how can people still defend Puma here. I can't say. he didn't play that great IMO and got lucky. MC played even worse and paid the price. I've never seen MC play that badly before.
As for the race balance, i'll trust blizzard and the maps to fix that problem.
as for personalities. Puma is boring, unattractive, and Disreputable with TSL I don't dislike EG BTW
MC: Brash, Bold, Competant player who makes bad mistakes against rival opponents. Perhaps him drinking less soda will help him think more clearly.
Who are you going to root for.. obviously the boss Protoss.
Rofl. Dude wtf. A win is a damn win and I cheered for Puma man I don't like MC nearly as much. And Everyone on teamliquid hates cheese so if anyone wins with it in a tournament the get immediate hate. Lets not forget MC was cheesy player not to long ago. And we have seen Puma beat MC before without cheesing so I would say that he deserved this win. Out classed.
good for you man. I think you are in the minority here so have fun. I'll root for the classier player which is MC>
MC is classier than whom, Puma? How do you draw this conclusion?
wow, you don't even know SC2 history?
how about Puma just doing some shady things to TSL. just back stabbing coach Lee. Never explained the EG situtation correctly or loudly enough for Lee to understand what EG wanted with Puma. Puma is the one at fault. I don't blame EG for wanting Puma. I don't blame coach lee for getting upset. Puma should have communicated the situation much better and didn't. which makes him a you know what in my estimation.
MC: always reaches out to the foreign community. ballsy and entertaining to watch. Never did BM moves to any of his team-mates or sponsors or the game..
this is so easy,and you can't even understand my points.
MC is far classier than Puma. it's not even a contest of debate.
Joke ?
Puma talked to his coach before, problem was his coached cried in a interview cause he didn't sign a contract and rain, tester and fruitdealer also left, was very childish move by coach lee, but he has had so much drama with sc2 con aswell for treating his players badly.
btw you know puma didn't have a salary, right ?
Puma never bmed anyone, MC made the throat slash to idra and several disrespectful things to opponents after winning or before games, like slamming booth, saying his opponents are easy, etc
Never liked MC
MC is just an entertainer man.. that's theater.
I don't think Puma did. I remember the reports of why Puma felt uncomfortable at the TSL after the NASL finals.. He didn't tell the coach quickly which is BM. Nor was there a team discussion on Puma's part with coach lee.
I'm not bashing Puma. All I am saying is that MC is a classier player, style wise and person wise.
that's how I think, and I think lot's of people will agree with me here.
Lol, seriously? He wasn't contracted nor was he getting paid. There's no need for a full team discussion. Just because a lot of people will agree with you doesn't mean you're right. I think you're also having trouble reading the guys posts you're responding to. Stay classy, lol.
Grats again PuMa.
Between coach and Puma. I never said the whole team.
I have no trouble responding to people. I am allowed to have my views on players, based on certain qualities they have. I am not going to bash them but i certainly won't root for them or make them out to be awesome dudes.
You can have yours views too. I never said people aren't allowed to see things differently. I still think MC is classier, and that's okay. you may think otherwise, that's fine.
You're allowed to have your opinions absolutely. When you start acting condescending when someone starts to disagree with you is when you start sounding retarded.
Also, if there's one thing I've learned since I've started playing it's not to be so hasty to call something broken and overpowered. Watching how the game shifts so quickly makes it difficult to call something broken.
I agree with you. All of that argument now is water under the bridge.
On August 22 2011 02:35 Fig wrote: wow so sad when the best toss player in the world can't beat 1/1/1. At least there is bound to be a patch soon Always look for the silver lining.
Im sorry but blizz wont nerf terran. I think we need a new morrow who will just 1/1/1 every game with toss till blizz nerf it or buff toss. I have no idea why all terrans dont do it every game. Is it a morality thing ? Clearly here is a build when decently executed will beat all tosses in the world and there is no good response and doesnt require toss to be 100 times better than terran to hold. PuMA cheesed his way to final win and people are saying he is good ? I saw nothing in this game from Puma that any terran in the world wont be capable off. He is just a random code B scrub who has trouble in korea since he sucks at TvT since everyone is a terran there. Let me see him beet MVP or bomber and I'll agree he is good. All he did is come out of korea to own non koreans .
I don't think Puma 1/1/1'd MC in the NASL finals. In fact, I remember him playing some pretty beastly games. Am I wrong? I kind of agree with your point about the 1/1/1's potency, but come on... you really think Flash's practice partner is a scrub?
The 1/1/1 looks unbeatable right now. Just like every other powerful build that's ever been discovered. And I agree that if a serious response isn't developed, it will constitute a serious imbalance. But you know full well there's going to be a delay between problem and solution. Abusive builds have come and gone, but pros can't be blamed for using them, and so far the vast majority of them have been solved through innovation, not patches.
1-1-1 has been around since the beta. It was potent then it's more potenter now due to constant protoss nerfs.
So you're taking issue with the word 'discovered', right? OK, conceded. Which nerfs in particular would you blame for this increased potency?
3 gate stargate and 4 gate were counters to 1/1/1 which is why it disappeared. Now VR only does 25 DPS to bunker/depot where terren is hold up teching instea of 41 DPS (with VR nerf). Now one round on units less comes to front door which is not enough to break it anymore with WG nerf.
I think the warp gate nerf will be undone. It didn't fix PvP at all. Didn't they nerf VR for the sake of team games?
It won't change the fact that you shouldn't expand and make shit ton of probes when you think 1 base allin is coming. WG 20s nerf has nothing to do with it, would you stop with this wine already? You all so mad, just switch to terran and make blizzard patch it if you think it's broken, Your whining isn't doing any good.
Whining worked out well for Zergs. Protoss took a long time to start whining comparatively. We didn't have an Idra or any top players that started whining about it cause they still wanted to solve it. But now, enough is enough.
On August 22 2011 03:10 Vinski wrote: [quote] Rofl. Dude wtf. A win is a damn win and I cheered for Puma man I don't like MC nearly as much. And Everyone on teamliquid hates cheese so if anyone wins with it in a tournament the get immediate hate. Lets not forget MC was cheesy player not to long ago. And we have seen Puma beat MC before without cheesing so I would say that he deserved this win. Out classed.
good for you man. I think you are in the minority here so have fun. I'll root for the classier player which is MC>
MC is classier than whom, Puma? How do you draw this conclusion?
wow, you don't even know SC2 history?
how about Puma just doing some shady things to TSL. just back stabbing coach Lee. Never explained the EG situtation correctly or loudly enough for Lee to understand what EG wanted with Puma. Puma is the one at fault. I don't blame EG for wanting Puma. I don't blame coach lee for getting upset. Puma should have communicated the situation much better and didn't. which makes him a you know what in my estimation.
MC: always reaches out to the foreign community. ballsy and entertaining to watch. Never did BM moves to any of his team-mates or sponsors or the game..
this is so easy,and you can't even understand my points.
MC is far classier than Puma. it's not even a contest of debate.
Joke ?
Puma talked to his coach before, problem was his coached cried in a interview cause he didn't sign a contract and rain, tester and fruitdealer also left, was very childish move by coach lee, but he has had so much drama with sc2 con aswell for treating his players badly.
btw you know puma didn't have a salary, right ?
Puma never bmed anyone, MC made the throat slash to idra and several disrespectful things to opponents after winning or before games, like slamming booth, saying his opponents are easy, etc
Never liked MC
MC is just an entertainer man.. that's theater.
I don't think Puma did. I remember the reports of why Puma felt uncomfortable at the TSL after the NASL finals.. He didn't tell the coach quickly which is BM. Nor was there a team discussion on Puma's part with coach lee.
I'm not bashing Puma. All I am saying is that MC is a classier player, style wise and person wise.
that's how I think, and I think lot's of people will agree with me here.
Lol, seriously? He wasn't contracted nor was he getting paid. There's no need for a full team discussion. Just because a lot of people will agree with you doesn't mean you're right. I think you're also having trouble reading the guys posts you're responding to. Stay classy, lol.
Grats again PuMa.
Between coach and Puma. I never said the whole team.
I have no trouble responding to people. I am allowed to have my views on players, based on certain qualities they have. I am not going to bash them but i certainly won't root for them or make them out to be awesome dudes.
You can have yours views too. I never said people aren't allowed to see things differently. I still think MC is classier, and that's okay. you may think otherwise, that's fine.
You're allowed to have your opinions absolutely. When you start acting condescending when someone starts to disagree with you is when you start sounding retarded.
Also, if there's one thing I've learned since I've started playing it's not to be so hasty to call something broken and overpowered. Watching how the game shifts so quickly makes it difficult to call something broken.
I agree with you. All of that argument now is water under the bridge.
if I acted a bit dogmatic, i apologize.
It's all gravy broseph! I was cheering for PuMa but MC is a total boss. I can see why you like the guy. Even though I cheered for 'em I'm disappointed that the series went the way it did.
On August 22 2011 02:35 Fig wrote: wow so sad when the best toss player in the world can't beat 1/1/1. At least there is bound to be a patch soon Always look for the silver lining.
Im sorry but blizz wont nerf terran. I think we need a new morrow who will just 1/1/1 every game with toss till blizz nerf it or buff toss. I have no idea why all terrans dont do it every game. Is it a morality thing ? Clearly here is a build when decently executed will beat all tosses in the world and there is no good response and doesnt require toss to be 100 times better than terran to hold. PuMA cheesed his way to final win and people are saying he is good ? I saw nothing in this game from Puma that any terran in the world wont be capable off. He is just a random code B scrub who has trouble in korea since he sucks at TvT since everyone is a terran there. Let me see him beet MVP or bomber and I'll agree he is good. All he did is come out of korea to own non koreans .
I don't think Puma 1/1/1'd MC in the NASL finals. In fact, I remember him playing some pretty beastly games. Am I wrong? I kind of agree with your point about the 1/1/1's potency, but come on... you really think Flash's practice partner is a scrub?
The 1/1/1 looks unbeatable right now. Just like every other powerful build that's ever been discovered. And I agree that if a serious response isn't developed, it will constitute a serious imbalance. But you know full well there's going to be a delay between problem and solution. Abusive builds have come and gone, but pros can't be blamed for using them, and so far the vast majority of them have been solved through innovation, not patches.
1-1-1 has been around since the beta. It was potent then it's more potenter now due to constant protoss nerfs.
So you're taking issue with the word 'discovered', right? OK, conceded. Which nerfs in particular would you blame for this increased potency?
3 gate stargate and 4 gate were counters to 1/1/1 which is why it disappeared. Now VR only does 25 DPS to bunker/depot where terren is hold up teching instea of 41 DPS (with VR nerf). Now one round on units less comes to front door which is not enough to break it anymore with WG nerf.
I think the warp gate nerf will be undone. It didn't fix PvP at all. Didn't they nerf VR for the sake of team games?
It's fixed it a little. Last GSL every game was still 4g vs 4g but this tournament PvP even went to 3 bases a couple times. I doubt they'll revert. Dustin said they fixed it in latest interveow so they seem quite happy with WG nerf.
On August 22 2011 02:35 Fig wrote: wow so sad when the best toss player in the world can't beat 1/1/1. At least there is bound to be a patch soon Always look for the silver lining.
Im sorry but blizz wont nerf terran. I think we need a new morrow who will just 1/1/1 every game with toss till blizz nerf it or buff toss. I have no idea why all terrans dont do it every game. Is it a morality thing ? Clearly here is a build when decently executed will beat all tosses in the world and there is no good response and doesnt require toss to be 100 times better than terran to hold. PuMA cheesed his way to final win and people are saying he is good ? I saw nothing in this game from Puma that any terran in the world wont be capable off. He is just a random code B scrub who has trouble in korea since he sucks at TvT since everyone is a terran there. Let me see him beet MVP or bomber and I'll agree he is good. All he did is come out of korea to own non koreans .
I don't think Puma 1/1/1'd MC in the NASL finals. In fact, I remember him playing some pretty beastly games. Am I wrong? I kind of agree with your point about the 1/1/1's potency, but come on... you really think Flash's practice partner is a scrub?
The 1/1/1 looks unbeatable right now. Just like every other powerful build that's ever been discovered. And I agree that if a serious response isn't developed, it will constitute a serious imbalance. But you know full well there's going to be a delay between problem and solution. Abusive builds have come and gone, but pros can't be blamed for using them, and so far the vast majority of them have been solved through innovation, not patches.
1-1-1 has been around since the beta. It was potent then it's more potenter now due to constant protoss nerfs.
So you're taking issue with the word 'discovered', right? OK, conceded. Which nerfs in particular would you blame for this increased potency?
3 gate stargate and 4 gate were counters to 1/1/1 which is why it disappeared. Now VR only does 25 DPS to bunker/depot where terren is hold up teching instea of 41 DPS (with VR nerf). Now one round on units less comes to front door which is not enough to break it anymore with WG nerf.
I think the warp gate nerf will be undone. It didn't fix PvP at all. Didn't they nerf VR for the sake of team games?
It won't change the fact that you shouldn't expand and make shit ton of probes when you think 1 base allin is coming. WG 20s nerf has nothing to do with it, would you stop with this wine already? You all so mad, just switch to terran and make blizzard patch it if you think it's broken, Your whining isn't doing any good.
why do people post when they clearly have no idea what they're talking about?
You have to expand to not get contained and the 1 gate nexus pays for itself.
No one base build from protoss beats the 1-1-1 from terran.
The warpgate nerf made it so that four gate can't break through a 1-1-1 terran because he now has a siege tank and more marines and instantly wins.
On August 22 2011 03:36 The KY wrote: So...MC holds a 1/1/1 build with a 30 supply advantage, then loses soon after anyway. Sounds like getting outplayed to me. Second game he loses a standard game. Third game he straight up loses to 1/1/1. To me, this doesn't sound like a series worthy of too much qq.
What pisses me off is the fact that in the run up to this series everyone is like 'ooomg Puma v MC rematch, NASL finals were amazing, shame it's only Bo5, doesn't do justice to these two amazing players!'. After Puma cheeses twice, it's all 'PUMA IS AWFUL, I never liked him or EG, he could never beat MC, a.k.a the Protoss Christ, without his absurd terran bullshit, here are all the reasons Puma played like shit like the cheeser he is.'
I'd also like to point out that an OP build doesn't make an OP race. Also to people qqing...we fucking know. We know it looks too strong. Put down your pitchforks and torches and have an ounce of patience. Through the metagame or patching, it'll be fixed.
I disagree when you say that an OP build doesn't make an OP race. If I had a hypothetical race which lost every game unless it did a certain build, but that build guaranteed victory (this example is conceptual, it has nothing to do with the 1-1-1 all-in or Terran), then that race would be OP. What is a race? Its builds, its macro and micro mechanics, its units, and so on. A build is a perfectly legitimate part of a race - the strength of a race directly hinges on the various things it can do in terms of builds, units, macro mechanics, and so on. I fail to see how a build can be OP while leaving the race not OP.
Well builds and races are obviously entwined but not inter dependant. Take away the race and the build ceases to exist, take away the build and Terran is still there. But what I was actually getting at was that people should be careful to remember that there is no evidence that T has any major advantage over protoss other than 1 build, and to take this into account when suggesting balance changes that could break the game.
On August 22 2011 03:11 Buff Terrans wrote: This is the biggest whinefest in a long time.
Because there are only 3 protoss in the top 4 lol.
Yeap but 3 of the best protoss in the world. Bring on Nestea Losira and their friends, or MVP and his terran friends and you get a completely different result.
On August 22 2011 02:35 Fig wrote: wow so sad when the best toss player in the world can't beat 1/1/1. At least there is bound to be a patch soon Always look for the silver lining.
Im sorry but blizz wont nerf terran. I think we need a new morrow who will just 1/1/1 every game with toss till blizz nerf it or buff toss. I have no idea why all terrans dont do it every game. Is it a morality thing ? Clearly here is a build when decently executed will beat all tosses in the world and there is no good response and doesnt require toss to be 100 times better than terran to hold. PuMA cheesed his way to final win and people are saying he is good ? I saw nothing in this game from Puma that any terran in the world wont be capable off. He is just a random code B scrub who has trouble in korea since he sucks at TvT since everyone is a terran there. Let me see him beet MVP or bomber and I'll agree he is good. All he did is come out of korea to own non koreans .
I don't think Puma 1/1/1'd MC in the NASL finals. In fact, I remember him playing some pretty beastly games. Am I wrong? I kind of agree with your point about the 1/1/1's potency, but come on... you really think Flash's practice partner is a scrub?
The 1/1/1 looks unbeatable right now. Just like every other powerful build that's ever been discovered. And I agree that if a serious response isn't developed, it will constitute a serious imbalance. But you know full well there's going to be a delay between problem and solution. Abusive builds have come and gone, but pros can't be blamed for using them, and so far the vast majority of them have been solved through innovation, not patches.
1-1-1 has been around since the beta. It was potent then it's more potenter now due to constant protoss nerfs.
So you're taking issue with the word 'discovered', right? OK, conceded. Which nerfs in particular would you blame for this increased potency?
3 gate stargate and 4 gate were counters to 1/1/1 which is why it disappeared. Now VR only does 25 DPS to bunker/depot where terren is hold up teching instea of 41 DPS (with VR nerf). Now one round on units less comes to front door which is not enough to break it anymore with WG nerf.
I think the warp gate nerf will be undone. It didn't fix PvP at all. Didn't they nerf VR for the sake of team games?
It won't change the fact that you shouldn't expand and make shit ton of probes when you think 1 base allin is coming. WG 20s nerf has nothing to do with it, would you stop with this wine already? You all so mad, just switch to terran and make blizzard patch it if you think it's broken, Your whining isn't doing any good.
I already followed Byun's advice "terran OP, that's why I switched" except when I play customs of SC2BW. I bet many more will too as long as toss is only winning 40% of games they play. http://i.imgur.com/bdP2e.png
Omg shut up about the puma/eg thing. This is a live report thread. the puma/eg thing happened so long ago, if you're still whining about it, you need to learn how to not hold a grudge.
On August 22 2011 02:59 chatuka wrote: how can people still defend Puma here. I can't say. he didn't play that great IMO and got lucky. MC played even worse and paid the price. I've never seen MC play that badly before.
As for the race balance, i'll trust blizzard and the maps to fix that problem.
as for personalities. Puma is boring, unattractive, and Disreputable with TSL I don't dislike EG BTW
MC: Brash, Bold, Competant player who makes bad mistakes against rival opponents. Perhaps him drinking less soda will help him think more clearly.
Who are you going to root for.. obviously the boss Protoss.
Rofl. Dude wtf. A win is a damn win and I cheered for Puma man I don't like MC nearly as much. And Everyone on teamliquid hates cheese so if anyone wins with it in a tournament the get immediate hate. Lets not forget MC was cheesy player not to long ago. And we have seen Puma beat MC before without cheesing so I would say that he deserved this win. Out classed.
good for you man. I think you are in the minority here so have fun. I'll root for the classier player which is MC>
MC is classier than whom, Puma? How do you draw this conclusion?
wow, you don't even know SC2 history?
how about Puma just doing some shady things to TSL. just back stabbing coach Lee. Never explained the EG situtation correctly or loudly enough for Lee to understand what EG wanted with Puma. Puma is the one at fault. I don't blame EG for wanting Puma. I don't blame coach lee for getting upset. Puma should have communicated the situation much better and didn't. which makes him a you know what in my estimation.
MC: always reaches out to the foreign community. ballsy and entertaining to watch. Never did BM moves to any of his team-mates or sponsors or the game..
this is so easy,and you can't even understand my points.
MC is far classier than Puma. it's not even a contest of debate.
Joke ?
Puma talked to his coach before, problem was his coached cried in a interview cause he didn't sign a contract and rain, tester and fruitdealer also left, was very childish move by coach lee, but he has had so much drama with sc2 con aswell for treating his players badly.
btw you know puma didn't have a salary, right ?
Puma never bmed anyone, MC made the throat slash to idra and several disrespectful things to opponents after winning or before games, like slamming booth, saying his opponents are easy, etc
Never liked MC
MC is just an entertainer man.. that's theater.
I don't think Puma did. I remember the reports of why Puma felt uncomfortable at the TSL after the NASL finals.. He didn't tell the coach quickly which is BM. Nor was there a team discussion on Puma's part with coach lee.
I'm not bashing Puma. All I am saying is that MC is a classier player, style wise and person wise.
that's how I think, and I think lot's of people will agree with me here.
About MC, he insulted thorzain before their match in TSL. Here is the interview where the reference is made:
At 4:50
He uses the entertainer excuse a lot, so he can get away with his really disrespectful bad manners.
Funny thing is idra doesn't get allowed to use the same excuse.
Puma didn't tell the coach immediately, because he had a GSTL match, but told right after the match, in consideration that it might affect the team. Its like not telling your son you have cancer before he does a very important exam, i would do the same as puma. I respect puma a lot for this exact reason.
Just came back from the event. Damn I am pissed, to open up with this nice build is ok I think, but when he was already 2 games ahead... Puma should be ashamed for this. 90% of the crowd had to watch the most boring game I have ever watched ( it is called LOL) over 2 hours and did he atleast try to show some entertaining games? No... thanks a lot. And thanks a lot to Blizzard for calling this balanced.
On August 22 2011 03:36 The KY wrote: So...MC holds a 1/1/1 build with a 30 supply advantage, then loses soon after anyway. Sounds like getting outplayed to me. Second game he loses a standard game. Third game he straight up loses to 1/1/1. To me, this doesn't sound like a series worthy of too much qq.
What pisses me off is the fact that in the run up to this series everyone is like 'ooomg Puma v MC rematch, NASL finals were amazing, shame it's only Bo5, doesn't do justice to these two amazing players!'. After Puma cheeses twice, it's all 'PUMA IS AWFUL, I never liked him or EG, he could never beat MC, a.k.a the Protoss Christ, without his absurd terran bullshit, here are all the reasons Puma played like shit like the cheeser he is.'
I'd also like to point out that an OP build doesn't make an OP race. Also to people qqing...we fucking know. We know it looks too strong. Put down your pitchforks and torches and have an ounce of patience. Through the metagame or patching, it'll be fixed.
I disagree when you say that an OP build doesn't make an OP race. If I had a hypothetical race which lost every game unless it did a certain build, but that build guaranteed victory (this example is conceptual, it has nothing to do with the 1-1-1 all-in or Terran), then that race would be OP. What is a race? Its builds, its macro and micro mechanics, its units, and so on. A build is a perfectly legitimate part of a race - the strength of a race directly hinges on the various things it can do in terms of builds, units, macro mechanics, and so on. I fail to see how a build can be OP while leaving the race not OP.
Well builds and races are obviously entwined but not inter dependant. Take away the race and the build ceases to exist, take away the build and Terran is still there. But what I was actually getting at was that people should be careful to remember that there is no evidence that T has any major advantage over protoss other than 1 build, and to take this into account when suggesting balance changes that could break the game.
Yeah, I agree with how it's hard to balance because none of the units are OP alone. All I was saying is that "An OP build doesn't make an OP race" doesn't make sense to me. You say take away the build, and the race still exists. That's very true. But if you take away the OP build, then the race also wouldn't be OP anymore. Thus, their interdependence.
EPT
