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Stay positive, be happy and enjoy the event. Caster bashing and player bashing? Too much whining? Uh-oh! |
On August 04 2011 20:58 Shirohige wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:50 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 04 2011 20:36 Shirohige wrote:On August 04 2011 20:30 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 04 2011 20:10 Pirat6662001 wrote:On August 04 2011 20:05 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 04 2011 19:43 bgx wrote:On August 04 2011 19:25 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 04 2011 19:16 bgx wrote:On August 04 2011 19:08 Jakkerr wrote:
[quote]
Ur missing the point though, I don't say they should do that at all.
But at the moment it just feels like people from a division lower are competing vs people they are never gonna beat in this situation anyway, mostly because for 90% of those people it's simply not possible to practice 10-12 hours a day since they need to make a living too.
I don't think the foreign scene will get any better from getting stomped by koreans on every occasion. oh stop it for all of them its a job, they still get paid, they still win online cups, if they want to get bigger piece of pie they need to step up their game and win vs decent opponents, the difference is NOT that big, and top foreigners already proved it by taking games/series, its just their dedication limiting them, its funny because it shouldnt be the case when it is their freaking job to be the best its not about their mood to compete with koreans if we isolate foreigner tournaments from Korea the difference will be even bigger and every international tournament gonna get stomped (see BW) The mentality that the difference is not that big was valid during Beta and has slowly been disproved as time goes on. After MLG just had top 6 Koreans and a number 7 Korean trained foreigner, you really can't say the gap isn't THAT big. Also if you look at a lot of the games that foreigners took off of Koreans at recent tournaments, they are mostly cause of luck. For example: 1. Sjow took a game off of July by transitioning to dual port banshee after getting banneling busted and taking heavy damage 2. Losira losing a game to Incontrol playing with only a mouse. 3. MMA losing a game to Drewbie when it was lagging really hard. And if you want to take into consideration online play, Koreans still roll foreigners WITH lag. The players you mentioned arent even the top3 in their own countries, of course it were flukes, i meant that there are players much better who are underperforming. What we want now is example of foreigners beating koreans. Isolation means insta-defeat. At least put up a fight. Of course you can see the results and see that Koreans are far cry above foreigners but when you see the games, its not that scary as you portray. I only mentioned those examples because they were some of the few times foreigners took games off of the Koreans. In particular, I used the prior examples because results aren't everything; even though the foreigners won the game, it was due to outside factors, or luck. If you only want to look at Top 3 players, then the reality becomes even more grim. 1. Losira and MMA both 2-0 Naniwa 2. Boxer 2-0s Idra, Zenio 4-0 against Idra. 3. MVP 2-0s Select 4. Ret loses to MMA 2-0 5. KiwiKaki losing to Ganzi 2-0 If Top Foreigners can't even beat mediocre Koreans like Boxer, Ganzi, Zenio, or even Moon, how can you say the gap isn't huge. The closest thing to a competitive game you have is Thorzain vs MC (4-2 in favor of MC) and ever since after MLG Columbus, Thorzain hasn't accomplished anything. White-Ra has been doing quite well vs mc. lost 4-3 in dreamhack for example Thats not a recent result, the gap is a lot bigger now. Also Whitera got quite lucky against MC, like managing to sneak that probe into MC's base in front of his army. Dude, what are you trying to argue here? "the gap is a lot bigger now"? What does that even mean? Be a little more specific. It all depends on the foreigners you are talking about, there a huge differences in foreigners. Using them all under one term is just wrong and unfair. If you don't recognize this, you have a problem. There are definetly some foreigners who can keep up with the koreans, but most can not, they are still the exception. That much should be obvious for everyone and there are good examples for that. What more is there to discuss? The gap is a lot bigger now than it was during beta and during the Open GSL seasons. The gap has been increasing as better players started switching over, and current players started developing new builds and new ways to utilize their mechanics. The results of the latest MLG prove this point. No Foreigner WITHOUT Korean training can compete with the Koreans right now other than maybe Naniwa. Thorzain can't be losing to players like TSL_Revival in a lag-filled online tournament and still expect to be considered on par. Even with Naniwa, he's been 50/50 with players like Moon, who is neither in Code A nor focusing on SC2 full time. Obviously Ok, you obviously didn't get my point. The gap is different for every foreigner. It's pretty small for foreigners like naniwa and sen for example. But it is quite big for some others. Don't generalize so much, it's really annoying. And there are many examples of some foreigners keeping up with some koreans. There is no denying. You can't make excuses for everything, because you never know for sure, what the real reason behind the lost game was. Still, I agree that most koreans ahead and that is what we see at tournaments like MLG.
1. When there is a generalization, its a tacit understanding that you are comparing the average player of both scenes.
2. Actually all the examples I mentioned in earlier posts (Losira losing his mouse, MC getting sick, etc) were proved firsthand through interviews and other forms of live reporting. There is no "you never know", when multiple people give firsthand evidence of the incident occurring.
3. I agree
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Russian Federation949 Posts
Fail muta control from Sen. 8 mutas for 2 scvs
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On August 04 2011 21:06 labbe wrote:Khaldor is so good at commentating that I enjoy watching him cast in german even if I don't understand anything 
Exactly!
The blue flame Banshee is the best thing ever......
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On August 04 2011 21:04 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:55 Azarkon wrote:On August 04 2011 20:50 BackSideAttack wrote:
The gap is a lot bigger now than it was during beta and during the Open GSL seasons. The gap has been increasing as better players started switching over, and current players started developing new builds and new ways to utilize their mechanics. The results of the latest MLG prove this point.
No Foreigner WITHOUT Korean training can compete with the Koreans right now other than maybe Naniwa. Thorzain can't be losing to players like TSL_Revival in a lag-filled online tournament and still expect to be considered on par. Even with Naniwa, he's been 50/50 with players like Moon, who is neither in Code A nor focusing on SC2 full time.
Obviously
Of course the gap is bigger than it was during Beta when no one knew how to play, and the Open GSL seasons when Koreans were still cheesing almost every game. Back then, there was virtually no gap. What's your REAL point? "The gap has been increasing as better players started switching over, and current players started developing new builds and new ways to utilize their mechanics. The results of the latest MLG prove this point."
This doesn't justify you making excuses for every single Korean loss and denying that foreigners stand a chance against Koreans. If your only point is that the gap has become larger, no one denies that possibility.
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On August 04 2011 21:09 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 21:04 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 04 2011 20:55 Azarkon wrote:On August 04 2011 20:50 BackSideAttack wrote:
The gap is a lot bigger now than it was during beta and during the Open GSL seasons. The gap has been increasing as better players started switching over, and current players started developing new builds and new ways to utilize their mechanics. The results of the latest MLG prove this point.
No Foreigner WITHOUT Korean training can compete with the Koreans right now other than maybe Naniwa. Thorzain can't be losing to players like TSL_Revival in a lag-filled online tournament and still expect to be considered on par. Even with Naniwa, he's been 50/50 with players like Moon, who is neither in Code A nor focusing on SC2 full time.
Obviously
Of course the gap is bigger than it was during Beta when no one knew how to play, and the Open GSL seasons when Koreans were still cheesing almost every game. Back then, there was virtually no gap. What's your REAL point? "The gap has been increasing as better players started switching over, and current players started developing new builds and new ways to utilize their mechanics. The results of the latest MLG prove this point." This doesn't justify you making excuses for every single Korean loss and denying that foreigners stand a chance against Koreans. If your only point is that the gap has become larger, no one denies that.
I actually did not make excuses for every loss. I only pointed out the ones that were either clearly due to outside forces (Losira, MC) or a bad example of Korean skill (Alive). I acknowledge Sen's games against MC.
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TLO group starting in 15min ?
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Oh, Morrow vs Merz in english :D
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On August 04 2011 21:13 Assmo wrote:
TLO group starting in 15min ?
2h 15min 
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Here are like zero spectators. Just pro players :D
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On August 04 2011 21:14 tnud wrote:2h 15min
ah, crap!
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On August 04 2011 21:03 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:53 bennyaus wrote:On August 04 2011 20:50 BackSideAttack wrote:
The gap is a lot bigger now than it was during beta and during the Open GSL seasons. The gap has been increasing as better players started switching over, and current players started developing new builds and new ways to utilize their mechanics. The results of the latest MLG prove this point.
No Foreigner WITHOUT Korean training can compete with the Koreans right now other than maybe Naniwa. Thorzain can't be losing to players like TSL_Revival in a lag-filled online tournament and still expect to be considered on par. Even with Naniwa, he's been 50/50 with players like Moon, who is neither in Code A nor focusing on SC2 full time.
Obviously
Interesting example given that FXOtgun knocked out TSLRevival 2-0 in the qualifiers yesterday, and qxc all-killed IM. I mean, even though they both have Korean training and I'm a huge fan, I still am not stupid enough to just outright say that Thorzain/Nani couldn't match their feats or surpass them. K...your statement does nothing to counteract what I had posted. If i'm going to throw in the caveat of "WITHOUT Korean training", then I obviously believe that with Korean training, Foreigners like Naniwa and Thorzain could do well, even better than T-gun and the rest of the FXO guys. But the bottom line is, as of now, Thorzain and Naniwa have not received any of that training, so their skills will remain subpar. Also, the QXC example is really bad, he beat IM's C-team and lucked out against MVP. I say C-team because Losira, Nestea, Yonghwa, Yoda, Happy, and Seed are all better players than Horror, Dreamer, and BBi. If you don't believe that QXC lucked out against MVP, then answer this- would you bet your house in Vegas on QXC in a bo7 against MVP?
I don't think I would bet my house in Vegas on MVP vs QXC. Would you?
Exactly what is this legendary Korean training? When HuK entered the oGs training house they got impressed with his training. Is canadian training better than korean training or was the oGs training house training with non-korean training? Could you who seem to know pretty much everything about korean training explain this to me? ^_^
Btw, every time a swede loses in Korea/North America I will blame it on the equipment/jetlag/sickness/luck/bad conditions.
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I think I'm learning german LOL
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On August 04 2011 21:14 tnud wrote:2h 15min
1h 10min 
The group does start at 16:30 local time in Helsinki, now its 15:20.
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On August 04 2011 21:04 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:55 Azarkon wrote:On August 04 2011 20:50 BackSideAttack wrote:
The gap is a lot bigger now than it was during beta and during the Open GSL seasons. The gap has been increasing as better players started switching over, and current players started developing new builds and new ways to utilize their mechanics. The results of the latest MLG prove this point.
No Foreigner WITHOUT Korean training can compete with the Koreans right now other than maybe Naniwa. Thorzain can't be losing to players like TSL_Revival in a lag-filled online tournament and still expect to be considered on par. Even with Naniwa, he's been 50/50 with players like Moon, who is neither in Code A nor focusing on SC2 full time.
Obviously
Of course the gap is bigger than it was during Beta when no one knew how to play, and the Open GSL seasons when Koreans were still cheesing almost every game. Back then, there was virtually no gap. What's your REAL point? "The gap has been increasing as better players started switching over, and current players started developing new builds and new ways to utilize their mechanics. The results of the latest MLG prove this point."
Discussing the gap is meaningless is it small or is it big ? Who cares if the only solution is up to foreign players. Are you upset Koreans take prizes because they are able to practice more? Blame their culture or ours if u think thats the problem.
if there is a problem there have to be solution if you "eliminate" the problem by not inviting Koreans to foreigner tournaments foreigners won't get better besides few willing to sacriface(see BW), however if we let things happen, maybe it will encourage sponsors/players to invest properly into their job (not hobby), and we will finally get training houses and other infrastructure required to compete with Koreans. Overall SC2 skill will get higher internationally. As you saw there are already up and coming training houses (EG, Reign etc), i think mostly because of Korean "domination". Its all good for viewers.
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On August 04 2011 20:10 Pirat6662001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:05 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 04 2011 19:43 bgx wrote:On August 04 2011 19:25 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 04 2011 19:16 bgx wrote:On August 04 2011 19:08 Jakkerr wrote:On August 04 2011 19:04 hewley wrote:On August 04 2011 19:00 Jakkerr wrote:On August 04 2011 18:58 Swagasaurus wrote:On August 04 2011 18:52 Jakkerr wrote:
People should stop whining about the 'lack' of Koreans.
If u want 10+ Koreans at every tourney and have them take all the topspots u don't support the foreign scene and don't want it to grow.
Guess what, the 'foreign scene' is behind the korean scene in every way and it's simply not gonna catch up by itself.
If you keep giving all money to koreans the foreign scene is gonna keep falling more and more behind and in 2-3 years maybe there won't be any foreign players that even stand a chance in KR. This is one of the most ignorant posts I've ever seen on TL. Please don't post when you don't know what you're talking about. Ah, that's why a lot of progamers are getting demotivated to even go to LANS. I have allready heard on multiple streams from the best players in the world: 'Why bother to go to that tourney, theres like 5 koreans coming' yeah why bother practicing, why can't they just hand us our checks and prizes see what I did there... Ur missing the point though, I don't say they should do that at all. But at the moment it just feels like people from a division lower are competing vs people they are never gonna beat in this situation anyway, mostly because for 90% of those people it's simply not possible to practice 10-12 hours a day since they need to make a living too. I don't think the foreign scene will get any better from getting stomped by koreans on every occasion. oh stop it for all of them its a job, they still get paid, they still win online cups, if they want to get bigger piece of pie they need to step up their game and win vs decent opponents, the difference is NOT that big, and top foreigners already proved it by taking games/series, its just their dedication limiting them, its funny because it shouldnt be the case when it is their freaking job to be the best its not about their mood to compete with koreans if we isolate foreigner tournaments from Korea the difference will be even bigger and every international tournament gonna get stomped (see BW) The mentality that the difference is not that big was valid during Beta and has slowly been disproved as time goes on. After MLG just had top 6 Koreans and a number 7 Korean trained foreigner, you really can't say the gap isn't THAT big. Also if you look at a lot of the games that foreigners took off of Koreans at recent tournaments, they are mostly cause of luck. For example: 1. Sjow took a game off of July by transitioning to dual port banshee after getting banneling busted and taking heavy damage 2. Losira losing a game to Incontrol playing with only a mouse. 3. MMA losing a game to Drewbie when it was lagging really hard. And if you want to take into consideration online play, Koreans still roll foreigners WITH lag. The players you mentioned arent even the top3 in their own countries, of course it were flukes, i meant that there are players much better who are underperforming. What we want now is example of foreigners beating koreans. Isolation means insta-defeat. At least put up a fight. Of course you can see the results and see that Koreans are far cry above foreigners but when you see the games, its not that scary as you portray. I only mentioned those examples because they were some of the few times foreigners took games off of the Koreans. In particular, I used the prior examples because results aren't everything; even though the foreigners won the game, it was due to outside factors, or luck. If you only want to look at Top 3 players, then the reality becomes even more grim. 1. Losira and MMA both 2-0 Naniwa 2. Boxer 2-0s Idra, Zenio 4-0 against Idra. 3. MVP 2-0s Select 4. Ret loses to MMA 2-0 5. KiwiKaki losing to Ganzi 2-0 If Top Foreigners can't even beat mediocre Koreans like Boxer, Ganzi, Zenio, or even Moon, how can you say the gap isn't huge. The closest thing to a competitive game you have is Thorzain vs MC (4-2 in favor of MC) and ever since after MLG Columbus, Thorzain hasn't accomplished anything. White-Ra has been doing quite well vs mc. lost 4-3 in dreamhack for example
p mirror
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On August 04 2011 21:07 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:58 Shirohige wrote:On August 04 2011 20:50 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 04 2011 20:36 Shirohige wrote:On August 04 2011 20:30 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 04 2011 20:10 Pirat6662001 wrote:On August 04 2011 20:05 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 04 2011 19:43 bgx wrote:On August 04 2011 19:25 BackSideAttack wrote:On August 04 2011 19:16 bgx wrote:
[quote]
oh stop it
for all of them its a job, they still get paid, they still win online cups, if they want to get bigger piece of pie they need to step up their game and win vs decent opponents, the difference is NOT that big, and top foreigners already proved it by taking games/series, its just their dedication limiting them, its funny because it shouldnt be the case when it is their freaking job to be the best its not about their mood to compete with koreans
if we isolate foreigner tournaments from Korea the difference will be even bigger and every international tournament gonna get stomped (see BW)
The mentality that the difference is not that big was valid during Beta and has slowly been disproved as time goes on. After MLG just had top 6 Koreans and a number 7 Korean trained foreigner, you really can't say the gap isn't THAT big. Also if you look at a lot of the games that foreigners took off of Koreans at recent tournaments, they are mostly cause of luck. For example: 1. Sjow took a game off of July by transitioning to dual port banshee after getting banneling busted and taking heavy damage 2. Losira losing a game to Incontrol playing with only a mouse. 3. MMA losing a game to Drewbie when it was lagging really hard. And if you want to take into consideration online play, Koreans still roll foreigners WITH lag. The players you mentioned arent even the top3 in their own countries, of course it were flukes, i meant that there are players much better who are underperforming. What we want now is example of foreigners beating koreans. Isolation means insta-defeat. At least put up a fight. Of course you can see the results and see that Koreans are far cry above foreigners but when you see the games, its not that scary as you portray. I only mentioned those examples because they were some of the few times foreigners took games off of the Koreans. In particular, I used the prior examples because results aren't everything; even though the foreigners won the game, it was due to outside factors, or luck. If you only want to look at Top 3 players, then the reality becomes even more grim. 1. Losira and MMA both 2-0 Naniwa 2. Boxer 2-0s Idra, Zenio 4-0 against Idra. 3. MVP 2-0s Select 4. Ret loses to MMA 2-0 5. KiwiKaki losing to Ganzi 2-0 If Top Foreigners can't even beat mediocre Koreans like Boxer, Ganzi, Zenio, or even Moon, how can you say the gap isn't huge. The closest thing to a competitive game you have is Thorzain vs MC (4-2 in favor of MC) and ever since after MLG Columbus, Thorzain hasn't accomplished anything. White-Ra has been doing quite well vs mc. lost 4-3 in dreamhack for example Thats not a recent result, the gap is a lot bigger now. Also Whitera got quite lucky against MC, like managing to sneak that probe into MC's base in front of his army. Dude, what are you trying to argue here? "the gap is a lot bigger now"? What does that even mean? Be a little more specific. It all depends on the foreigners you are talking about, there a huge differences in foreigners. Using them all under one term is just wrong and unfair. If you don't recognize this, you have a problem. There are definetly some foreigners who can keep up with the koreans, but most can not, they are still the exception. That much should be obvious for everyone and there are good examples for that. What more is there to discuss? The gap is a lot bigger now than it was during beta and during the Open GSL seasons. The gap has been increasing as better players started switching over, and current players started developing new builds and new ways to utilize their mechanics. The results of the latest MLG prove this point. No Foreigner WITHOUT Korean training can compete with the Koreans right now other than maybe Naniwa. Thorzain can't be losing to players like TSL_Revival in a lag-filled online tournament and still expect to be considered on par. Even with Naniwa, he's been 50/50 with players like Moon, who is neither in Code A nor focusing on SC2 full time. Obviously Ok, you obviously didn't get my point. The gap is different for every foreigner. It's pretty small for foreigners like naniwa and sen for example. But it is quite big for some others. Don't generalize so much, it's really annoying. And there are many examples of some foreigners keeping up with some koreans. There is no denying. You can't make excuses for everything, because you never know for sure, what the real reason behind the lost game was. Still, I agree that most koreans ahead and that is what we see at tournaments like MLG. 1. When there is a generalization, its a tacit understanding that you are comparing the average player of both scenes. 2. Actually all the examples I mentioned in earlier posts (Losira losing his mouse, MC getting sick, etc) were proved firsthand through interviews and other forms of live reporting. There is no "you never know", when multiple people give firsthand evidence of the incident occurring. 3. I agree
Thanks for the numbers, thats quite useful.
1. Yes, but then I don't see a point in making this statement, since no one would argue about that, if you really are only talking about the average player and about no one in specific. Since we are talking about specific players here, I find it important to point out those differences.
2. Let's say I believe you in all those points, there are still more examples mentioned by other forum members and still more which aren't mentioned at all. It's not only about your examples, but about every example.
3. See and that is the main point, I think. As long as you (a general you) don't forget the exceptions.
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Why did I not know anything about this event happening :O :O :O
Looks to be a good event, but a bit more publicity would have been nice, especially since the price pool and the players in it, it deserves to be watched.
Edit (this could just be me not noticing  )
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What the fuck just happened.......HOW DID SEN COME BACK?
When that drop killed natural i serious thought the game was totally over....
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
I lurv seeing well done mutalisk play.
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EPT
