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On July 07 2011 10:49 PHC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 10:29 HolyArrow wrote:
I don't get why people think there's no such thing as raw talent when it comes to video games. Your mind can naturally develop differently than others, just as your body can. QFT. Do you think Flash is this good because he practices more than his teammates? Give me a break.
He does practice more than his teammates, according to those in the know. Similarly, Jaedong's coach has described him as the "perfect player" because of his fantastic work ethic and his willingness to undertake practice regimens that would make any other player complain.
I do think that it's silly to say that talent doesn't exist at all, but you've picked a pretty bad example to support your point.
Also, interestingly enough, IdrA and Artosis had a very similar argument to this on the TL forums back in the BW days, both arguing that talent was basically irrelevant compared to practice. That's obviously a gross simplification of what they were saying, so I'll see if I can dig that thread up from the archives. Not really sure what keywords to use, I may or may not be able to find it.
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So sad cause MC and Huk have to kill each other. Well, If MC wins NASL, i guess it's ok for him to be knocked out by Huk, cause NASL winner makes a truck load of cash.
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On July 07 2011 13:41 s3183529 wrote:
So sad cause MC and Huk have to kill each other. Well, If MC wins NASL, i guess it's ok for him to be knocked out by Huk, cause NASL winner makes a truck load of cash.
MC will win both :DDD
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On July 07 2011 13:41 YoungNeil wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 10:49 PHC wrote:On July 07 2011 10:29 HolyArrow wrote:
I don't get why people think there's no such thing as raw talent when it comes to video games. Your mind can naturally develop differently than others, just as your body can. QFT. Do you think Flash is this good because he practices more than his teammates? Give me a break. He does practice more than his teammates, according to those in the know. Similarly, Jaedong's coach has described him as the "perfect player" because of his fantastic work ethic and his willingness to undertake practice regimens that would make any other player complain. I do think that it's silly to say that talent doesn't exist at all, but you've picked a pretty bad example to support your point. Also, interestingly enough, IdrA and Artosis had a very similar argument to this on the TL forums back in the BW days, both arguing that talent was basically irrelevant compared to practice. That's obviously a gross simplification of what they were saying, so I'll see if I can dig that thread up from the archives. Not really sure what keywords to use, I may or may not be able to find it.
Do you not think other players in the BW scene who dedicate their lives to the game don't strive to be at the very top along side Flash? The truth is everyone in the BW scene practices the same more or less. If talent was as negligable as you say it is, you'd expect the top players to all have 50% win rates and there to be almost no standouts. However that doesn't explain the anomolies like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Nada, Savior, etc. Considering how far ahead of the competition those players were, the only plausible explanations are they practiced 4 more hours a day than everyone else, or they had a natural talent that set them ahead of other people striving for the same success. considering how unfeasible the first explanation is, I'd go with "talent played a role".
As an example. Bisu's ability to multitask sets him ahead of many other Protoss and makes him almost unstoppable in PvZ, where he can best put that ability to use. There's no way natural talent doesn't play a role in making Bisu far superior to any other Protoss in PvZ
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On July 08 2011 00:35 TheSubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 13:41 YoungNeil wrote:On July 07 2011 10:49 PHC wrote:On July 07 2011 10:29 HolyArrow wrote:
I don't get why people think there's no such thing as raw talent when it comes to video games. Your mind can naturally develop differently than others, just as your body can. QFT. Do you think Flash is this good because he practices more than his teammates? Give me a break. He does practice more than his teammates, according to those in the know. Similarly, Jaedong's coach has described him as the "perfect player" because of his fantastic work ethic and his willingness to undertake practice regimens that would make any other player complain. I do think that it's silly to say that talent doesn't exist at all, but you've picked a pretty bad example to support your point. Also, interestingly enough, IdrA and Artosis had a very similar argument to this on the TL forums back in the BW days, both arguing that talent was basically irrelevant compared to practice. That's obviously a gross simplification of what they were saying, so I'll see if I can dig that thread up from the archives. Not really sure what keywords to use, I may or may not be able to find it. Do you not think other players in the BW scene who dedicate their lives to the game don't strive to be at the very top along side Flash? The truth is everyone in the BW scene practices the same more or less. If talent was as negligable as you say it is, you'd expect the top players to all have 50% win rates and there to be almost no standouts. However that doesn't explain the anomolies like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Nada, Savior, etc. Considering how far ahead of the competition those players were, the only plausible explanations are they practiced 4 more hours a day than everyone else, or they had a natural talent that set them ahead of other people striving for the same success. considering how unfeasible the first explanation is, I'd go with "talent played a role". As an example. Bisu's ability to multitask sets him ahead of many other Protoss and makes him almost unstoppable in PvZ, where he can best put that ability to use. There's no way natural talent doesn't play a role in making Bisu far superior to any other Protoss in PvZ
Don't confuse time spent practising as hours spent in front of the computer each day.
It can be argued what sets Flash, Jaedong, Nada, Savior above the rest is how they practise, how they perfect their builds, mechanics, game-sense and reading abilities.
They aren't so talented that they win every game, but they certainly hold good records over long periods. It can be argued they have greater natural talent than their opponents, but natural talent will plateau and I think others can have similar natural talent but lack the same degree of intelligence when approaching practising the points I mentioned above.
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Amount of practice does not necessarily translate to quality of practice.
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On July 08 2011 02:02 coko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 00:35 TheSubtleArt wrote:On July 07 2011 13:41 YoungNeil wrote:On July 07 2011 10:49 PHC wrote:On July 07 2011 10:29 HolyArrow wrote:
I don't get why people think there's no such thing as raw talent when it comes to video games. Your mind can naturally develop differently than others, just as your body can. QFT. Do you think Flash is this good because he practices more than his teammates? Give me a break. He does practice more than his teammates, according to those in the know. Similarly, Jaedong's coach has described him as the "perfect player" because of his fantastic work ethic and his willingness to undertake practice regimens that would make any other player complain. I do think that it's silly to say that talent doesn't exist at all, but you've picked a pretty bad example to support your point. Also, interestingly enough, IdrA and Artosis had a very similar argument to this on the TL forums back in the BW days, both arguing that talent was basically irrelevant compared to practice. That's obviously a gross simplification of what they were saying, so I'll see if I can dig that thread up from the archives. Not really sure what keywords to use, I may or may not be able to find it. Do you not think other players in the BW scene who dedicate their lives to the game don't strive to be at the very top along side Flash? The truth is everyone in the BW scene practices the same more or less. If talent was as negligable as you say it is, you'd expect the top players to all have 50% win rates and there to be almost no standouts. However that doesn't explain the anomolies like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Nada, Savior, etc. Considering how far ahead of the competition those players were, the only plausible explanations are they practiced 4 more hours a day than everyone else, or they had a natural talent that set them ahead of other people striving for the same success. considering how unfeasible the first explanation is, I'd go with "talent played a role". As an example. Bisu's ability to multitask sets him ahead of many other Protoss and makes him almost unstoppable in PvZ, where he can best put that ability to use. There's no way natural talent doesn't play a role in making Bisu far superior to any other Protoss in PvZ Don't confuse time spent practising as hours spent in front of the computer each day. It can be argued what sets Flash, Jaedong, Nada, Savior above the rest is how they practise, how they perfect their builds, mechanics, game-sense and reading abilities. They aren't so talented that they win every game, but they certainly hold good records over long periods. It can be argued they have greater natural talent than their opponents, but natural talent will plateau and I think others can have similar natural talent but lack the same degree of intelligence when approaching practising the points I mentioned above.
When you get to that level everyone practices the same amount of time, and that amount in Korean BW is literally as much as you can possibly practice in a day while still getting adequate sleep and food. Natural talent / intelligence has to play a role at that point in differentiating players. There's just no other way to explain how a player like Flash can be so good. Everyone at the top practices 10 hours a day; you think Flash practices 14?
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Everyone at the top practices 10 hours a day; you think Flash practices 14?
You also have to think about what's happening at practice. Who's coaching flash, what kind of techniques is he using and how dedicated is he? Yes lots of people practice for 10 hours per day but that doesn't mean that their situations are exactly the same.
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On July 08 2011 06:29 Vul wrote:You also have to think about what's happening at practice. Who's coaching flash, what kind of techniques is he using and how dedicated is he? Yes lots of people practice for 10 hours per day but that doesn't mean that their situations are exactly the same.
So you're saying Flash is practicing optimally and recieving top notch coaching while everyone else (including his teammates, who would presumably have access to the same coaching) isn't? Youy can believe that, I guess, but personally I find it way too much of a stretch and a sweeping generalization to assume he's ahead of everyone because he's practicing "right" and other players aren't. I think you have to have the right practice habits and mentality to even get to the level of an A-team progamer
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I got to watch Inca v Kyrix and I have to ask a question as a protoss player. What would Inca have planned had those initial 2 cannons had gone up? It's not like those cannons hit a hatchery or mineral line. And they couldn't block the ramp, either. I wonder what options were there even if those cannons went up.
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Is it just me or do 90% of the make-ups make the players look like transvestites?
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On July 08 2011 03:30 TheSubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 02:02 coko wrote:On July 08 2011 00:35 TheSubtleArt wrote:On July 07 2011 13:41 YoungNeil wrote:On July 07 2011 10:49 PHC wrote:On July 07 2011 10:29 HolyArrow wrote:
I don't get why people think there's no such thing as raw talent when it comes to video games. Your mind can naturally develop differently than others, just as your body can. QFT. Do you think Flash is this good because he practices more than his teammates? Give me a break. He does practice more than his teammates, according to those in the know. Similarly, Jaedong's coach has described him as the "perfect player" because of his fantastic work ethic and his willingness to undertake practice regimens that would make any other player complain. I do think that it's silly to say that talent doesn't exist at all, but you've picked a pretty bad example to support your point. Also, interestingly enough, IdrA and Artosis had a very similar argument to this on the TL forums back in the BW days, both arguing that talent was basically irrelevant compared to practice. That's obviously a gross simplification of what they were saying, so I'll see if I can dig that thread up from the archives. Not really sure what keywords to use, I may or may not be able to find it. Do you not think other players in the BW scene who dedicate their lives to the game don't strive to be at the very top along side Flash? The truth is everyone in the BW scene practices the same more or less. If talent was as negligable as you say it is, you'd expect the top players to all have 50% win rates and there to be almost no standouts. However that doesn't explain the anomolies like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Nada, Savior, etc. Considering how far ahead of the competition those players were, the only plausible explanations are they practiced 4 more hours a day than everyone else, or they had a natural talent that set them ahead of other people striving for the same success. considering how unfeasible the first explanation is, I'd go with "talent played a role". As an example. Bisu's ability to multitask sets him ahead of many other Protoss and makes him almost unstoppable in PvZ, where he can best put that ability to use. There's no way natural talent doesn't play a role in making Bisu far superior to any other Protoss in PvZ Don't confuse time spent practising as hours spent in front of the computer each day. It can be argued what sets Flash, Jaedong, Nada, Savior above the rest is how they practise, how they perfect their builds, mechanics, game-sense and reading abilities. They aren't so talented that they win every game, but they certainly hold good records over long periods. It can be argued they have greater natural talent than their opponents, but natural talent will plateau and I think others can have similar natural talent but lack the same degree of intelligence when approaching practising the points I mentioned above. When you get to that level everyone practices the same amount of time, and that amount in Korean BW is literally as much as you can possibly practice in a day while still getting adequate sleep and food. Natural talent / intelligence has to play a role at that point in differentiating players. There's just no other way to explain how a player like Flash can be so good. Everyone at the top practices 10 hours a day; you think Flash practices 14?
Flash has been known to pull eighteen-hour practice days before important matches. This is what I was saying. Most of the top BW players are known for their ability and willingness to carry out especially rigorous training schedules. Every player practices hard, but some are more diligent than others. This doesn't mean that talent is a non-factor, but it's clear that there is a correlation between practicing beyond what is normal and being a top player.
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On July 08 2011 16:10 YoungNeil wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 03:30 TheSubtleArt wrote:On July 08 2011 02:02 coko wrote:On July 08 2011 00:35 TheSubtleArt wrote:On July 07 2011 13:41 YoungNeil wrote:On July 07 2011 10:49 PHC wrote:On July 07 2011 10:29 HolyArrow wrote:
I don't get why people think there's no such thing as raw talent when it comes to video games. Your mind can naturally develop differently than others, just as your body can. QFT. Do you think Flash is this good because he practices more than his teammates? Give me a break. He does practice more than his teammates, according to those in the know. Similarly, Jaedong's coach has described him as the "perfect player" because of his fantastic work ethic and his willingness to undertake practice regimens that would make any other player complain. I do think that it's silly to say that talent doesn't exist at all, but you've picked a pretty bad example to support your point. Also, interestingly enough, IdrA and Artosis had a very similar argument to this on the TL forums back in the BW days, both arguing that talent was basically irrelevant compared to practice. That's obviously a gross simplification of what they were saying, so I'll see if I can dig that thread up from the archives. Not really sure what keywords to use, I may or may not be able to find it. Do you not think other players in the BW scene who dedicate their lives to the game don't strive to be at the very top along side Flash? The truth is everyone in the BW scene practices the same more or less. If talent was as negligable as you say it is, you'd expect the top players to all have 50% win rates and there to be almost no standouts. However that doesn't explain the anomolies like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Nada, Savior, etc. Considering how far ahead of the competition those players were, the only plausible explanations are they practiced 4 more hours a day than everyone else, or they had a natural talent that set them ahead of other people striving for the same success. considering how unfeasible the first explanation is, I'd go with "talent played a role". As an example. Bisu's ability to multitask sets him ahead of many other Protoss and makes him almost unstoppable in PvZ, where he can best put that ability to use. There's no way natural talent doesn't play a role in making Bisu far superior to any other Protoss in PvZ Don't confuse time spent practising as hours spent in front of the computer each day. It can be argued what sets Flash, Jaedong, Nada, Savior above the rest is how they practise, how they perfect their builds, mechanics, game-sense and reading abilities. They aren't so talented that they win every game, but they certainly hold good records over long periods. It can be argued they have greater natural talent than their opponents, but natural talent will plateau and I think others can have similar natural talent but lack the same degree of intelligence when approaching practising the points I mentioned above. When you get to that level everyone practices the same amount of time, and that amount in Korean BW is literally as much as you can possibly practice in a day while still getting adequate sleep and food. Natural talent / intelligence has to play a role at that point in differentiating players. There's just no other way to explain how a player like Flash can be so good. Everyone at the top practices 10 hours a day; you think Flash practices 14? Flash has been known to pull eighteen-hour practice days before important matches. This is what I was saying. Most of the top BW players are known for their ability and willingness to carry out especially rigorous training schedules. Every player practices hard, but some are more diligent than others. This doesn't mean that talent is a non-factor, but it's clear that there is a correlation between practicing beyond what is normal and being a top player.
I'm sure almost everyone will exceed a 10 hour practice schedule before an important match, but that doesn't mean they do so on a regular basis, that's just impossible.
We're saying the same thing though.
This doesn't mean that talent is a non-factor, but it's clear that there is a correlation between practicing beyond what is normal and being a top player.
^ That was just my point; talent isn't negligable like some say it is. It definitely plays a factor into standout players achieving what they do.
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EPT
