• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 07:40
CEST 13:40
KST 20:40
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8
Community News
StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026)39Weekly Cups (Sept 21-27): herO and ByuN double2Weekly Cups (Sep 13-20): herO scores triple3BSL Season 2313Weekly Cups (Sep 7-12): SHIN, ByuN, MaxPax double down1
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026) How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR? StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon Weekly Cups (Sept 21-27): herO and ByuN double Recent Patches and the Future
Tourneys
Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) 2026 GSTL Grand Finals SC2 INu's Battles#21 [ 3-Days tournament ] ScienceCraft (October 24-25) - Live Event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 545 And Drops and Rifts Mutation # 544 Double Trouble Mutation # 543 Enhanced Defenses
Brood War
General
Fantasy returning? ASL22 General Discussion Bot on ladder BW General Discussion a Announcement on the JEDI Ringing
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro8 Day 4 [ASL22] Ro8 Day 3 [ASL22] Ro8 Day 2
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Zero
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25! Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread All you football fans (soccer)! Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Escaping Into Video Games: G…
TrAiDoS
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 9631 users

[GSL] July Code S ro32 Day 4 - Page 193

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
Post a Reply
Prev 1 191 192 193 194 Next
KimJongChill
Profile Joined January 2011
United States6429 Posts
July 07 2011 00:23 GMT
#3841
On July 07 2011 08:19 BjC wrote:
I just jumped straight to the last page of the thread as i wondered the reaction to the games and been out all day. How has an Idra disscussion hijacked the thread?? who cares about idra all the time?? In every tournament american idra fanboys bring him up. Why? Really? Why? He is a decent player, but one of many "decent players". He hasent won anything meaningfull and is a shame to his sport alot of the time due to his constant moaning and disrespect. Also IPL wasnt a meaningfull win for him. It was NA only and im sure if any Koreans or even europeans were in it they would of smashed most of those players that took part outta the tournament.

Big Cheer for Huk finishing top of his group. Happy MC made it out too, should be a good rematch from homestory cup between those two in the next round. =]



You've never heard of Idra's law? Any discussion of players will inevitably resolve itself into a discussion of Idra. By calling it Idra's law, we are doubly invoking Idra's law.
MMA: U realise MMA: Most of my army EgIdra: fuck off MMA: Killed my orbital MMA: LOL MMA: just saying MMA: u werent loss
usethis2
Profile Joined December 2010
2164 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-07 00:40:32
July 07 2011 00:29 GMT
#3842
On July 07 2011 09:13 lorkac wrote:
I LOVE biased commentary because I keep hoping we get two people with opposing opinions cast the same game. I'm talking verbal flamewar during a match--it'd be hilarious.

That did happen a few times in the past between Artosis and Tastless when Artosis was Z and Tastless was P. (In a very subtle fashion) Tastless usually doesn't have player-based bias but lacks game knowledge compared to Artosis, so that might be a reason why Tastless tries to avoid label/rank players like Artosis does (blatantly and sometimes obnoxiously).

But now that both are Protoss, Tastless lets Artosis get away with most of his biased comments without countering. Tastless does try to fill the void as much as he could, though, which I appreciate.
AndAgain
Profile Joined November 2010
United States2621 Posts
July 07 2011 00:49 GMT
#3843
On July 07 2011 09:29 usethis2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2011 09:13 lorkac wrote:
I LOVE biased commentary because I keep hoping we get two people with opposing opinions cast the same game. I'm talking verbal flamewar during a match--it'd be hilarious.

That did happen a few times in the past between Artosis and Tastless when Artosis was Z and Tastless was P. (In a very subtle fashion) Tastless usually doesn't have player-based bias but lacks game knowledge compared to Artosis, so that might be a reason why Tastless tries to avoid label/rank players like Artosis does (blatantly and sometimes obnoxiously).

But now that both are Protoss, Tastless lets Artosis get away with most of his biased comments without countering. Tastless does try to fill the void as much as he could, though, which I appreciate.


What protoss biased comments has Artosis been saying? I haven't noticed any.
All your teeth should fall out and hair should grow in their place!
JKira
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Canada1002 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-07 00:51:23
July 07 2011 00:51 GMT
#3844
On July 07 2011 08:07 lorkac wrote:
Idra has more raw talent than Huk.
Huk has more practice than Idra.

This is the classic foreigner vs Korean debate isn't it?


There's no such thing as raw talent when it comes to video games. It's not like a physical sport where your body type and athleticism can play a huge role in how good you are. The amount of practice you put in directly correlates to how good you will be in Starcraft 2. Where do you think IdrA got that "raw talent" from anyways? It's his great mechanics carrying over from BW where he was one of the hardest working foreigners.

Also, I don't see how it's a foreigner vs Korean debate. It seems more like a who is the best foreigner debate.
OwlFeet
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
75 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-07 00:56:34
July 07 2011 00:55 GMT
#3845
On July 07 2011 09:51 JKira wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2011 08:07 lorkac wrote:
Idra has more raw talent than Huk.
Huk has more practice than Idra.

This is the classic foreigner vs Korean debate isn't it?


There's no such thing as raw talent when it comes to video games. It's not like a physical sport where your body type and athleticism can play a huge role in how good you are. The amount of practice you put in directly correlates to how good you will be in Starcraft 2. Where do you think IdrA got that "raw talent" from anyways? It's his great mechanics carrying over from BW where he was one of the hardest working foreigners.

Also, I don't see how it's a foreigner vs Korean debate. It seems more like a who is the best foreigner debate.


Just like there is no such thing as raw talent when it comes to how good you are academically.
Diglett
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
600 Posts
July 07 2011 01:03 GMT
#3846
On July 07 2011 09:51 JKira wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2011 08:07 lorkac wrote:
Idra has more raw talent than Huk.
Huk has more practice than Idra.

This is the classic foreigner vs Korean debate isn't it?


There's no such thing as raw talent when it comes to video games. It's not like a physical sport where your body type and athleticism can play a huge role in how good you are. The amount of practice you put in directly correlates to how good you will be in Starcraft 2. Where do you think IdrA got that "raw talent" from anyways? It's his great mechanics carrying over from BW where he was one of the hardest working foreigners.

Also, I don't see how it's a foreigner vs Korean debate. It seems more like a who is the best foreigner debate.


there are factors other than practice time that contribute to winning. some ppl call it talent, others intelligence, others ...other stuff...
HolyArrow
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7116 Posts
July 07 2011 01:29 GMT
#3847
I don't get why people think there's no such thing as raw talent when it comes to video games. Your mind can naturally develop differently than others, just as your body can.
PHC
Profile Joined March 2011
United States472 Posts
July 07 2011 01:49 GMT
#3848
On July 07 2011 10:29 HolyArrow wrote:
I don't get why people think there's no such thing as raw talent when it comes to video games. Your mind can naturally develop differently than others, just as your body can.



QFT. Do you think Flash is this good because he practices more than his teammates? Give me a break.
lunchforthesky
Profile Joined June 2011
United Kingdom967 Posts
July 07 2011 02:21 GMT
#3849
On July 07 2011 09:51 JKira wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2011 08:07 lorkac wrote:
Idra has more raw talent than Huk.
Huk has more practice than Idra.

This is the classic foreigner vs Korean debate isn't it?


There's no such thing as raw talent when it comes to video games. It's not like a physical sport where your body type and athleticism can play a huge role in how good you are. The amount of practice you put in directly correlates to how good you will be in Starcraft 2. Where do you think IdrA got that "raw talent" from anyways? It's his great mechanics carrying over from BW where he was one of the hardest working foreigners.

Also, I don't see how it's a foreigner vs Korean debate. It seems more like a who is the best foreigner debate.


That's rubbish. There's plenty raw talent in video games. Countless Brood War players play all day, but there's only one Flash.

You've never met people who are just good at all video games as soon as they play them?
SafeAsCheese
Profile Joined June 2011
United States4924 Posts
July 07 2011 02:23 GMT
#3850
On July 07 2011 09:23 KimJongChill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2011 08:19 BjC wrote:
I just jumped straight to the last page of the thread as i wondered the reaction to the games and been out all day. How has an Idra disscussion hijacked the thread?? who cares about idra all the time?? In every tournament american idra fanboys bring him up. Why? Really? Why? He is a decent player, but one of many "decent players". He hasent won anything meaningfull and is a shame to his sport alot of the time due to his constant moaning and disrespect. Also IPL wasnt a meaningfull win for him. It was NA only and im sure if any Koreans or even europeans were in it they would of smashed most of those players that took part outta the tournament.

Big Cheer for Huk finishing top of his group. Happy MC made it out too, should be a good rematch from homestory cup between those two in the next round. =]



You've never heard of Idra's law? Any discussion of players will inevitably resolve itself into a discussion of Idra. By calling it Idra's law, we are doubly invoking Idra's law.


It's the haters.

Huk wins a game, so someone has to snidely make a "hurr durr i wonder what idra thinks about dat, i bet he so jelly"

It's never the fans that start this shit =/
Elefanto
Profile Joined May 2010
Switzerland3584 Posts
July 07 2011 02:25 GMT
#3851
On July 07 2011 10:49 PHC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2011 10:29 HolyArrow wrote:
I don't get why people think there's no such thing as raw talent when it comes to video games. Your mind can naturally develop differently than others, just as your body can.



QFT. Do you think Flash is this good because he practices more than his teammates? Give me a break.


Why do people always come up bw analogies when they have no clue?
wat
Redmark
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada2129 Posts
July 07 2011 02:30 GMT
#3852
On July 07 2011 10:29 HolyArrow wrote:
I don't get why people think there's no such thing as raw talent when it comes to video games. Your mind can naturally develop differently than others, just as your body can.

Because you can change your mind much more easily than you can change your body. (Almost) anyone can be a good scientist given enough study and motivation, but a lot of people simply don`t have the genes to be a good sprinter. Something like table tennis would be in the middle, I guess.
Imagine someone who has the raw talent to be a murderer. It certainly is a fair assumption, but you wouldn't just let that go, right? You'd try to change that. It doesn't have to be a major factor in your life. If you have the raw talent to get cancer there's not much you can do.
mordk
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Chile8385 Posts
July 07 2011 02:43 GMT
#3853
On July 07 2011 11:30 Redmark wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2011 10:29 HolyArrow wrote:
I don't get why people think there's no such thing as raw talent when it comes to video games. Your mind can naturally develop differently than others, just as your body can.

Because you can change your mind much more easily than you can change your body. (Almost) anyone can be a good scientist given enough study and motivation, but a lot of people simply don`t have the genes to be a good sprinter. Something like table tennis would be in the middle, I guess.
Imagine someone who has the raw talent to be a murderer. It certainly is a fair assumption, but you wouldn't just let that go, right? You'd try to change that. It doesn't have to be a major factor in your life. If you have the raw talent to get cancer there's not much you can do.


LOL... that's just crazy. The mind is definitely much harder to change than the body. Obviously there are things that just won't change (for instance, your height), but saying that it's easy to change your mind is just ridiculous.

You don't become smarter by studying more, you just know more stuff. What your mind can do with that knowledge and training is not something easy to modify. Some people just don't have the genes to be a great scientist.

God that statement is so incredibly ignorant I can't even find a decent way to answer.
BRJ
Profile Joined October 2010
New Zealand19 Posts
July 07 2011 02:43 GMT
#3854
On July 07 2011 11:30 Redmark wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2011 10:29 HolyArrow wrote:
I don't get why people think there's no such thing as raw talent when it comes to video games. Your mind can naturally develop differently than others, just as your body can.

Because you can change your mind much more easily than you can change your body. (Almost) anyone can be a good scientist given enough study and motivation, but a lot of people simply don`t have the genes to be a good sprinter. Something like table tennis would be in the middle, I guess.
Imagine someone who has the raw talent to be a murderer. It certainly is a fair assumption, but you wouldn't just let that go, right? You'd try to change that. It doesn't have to be a major factor in your life. If you have the raw talent to get cancer there's not much you can do.


No they really really cant. I'm mid way through a PhD in engineering and it certainly isn't possible for everyone. It takes a combination of motivation and talent imagining someone could work hard and catch up is wrong, I have seen plenty of people work hard and fail.

Also I find it odd people don't think that starcraft requires physical prowess, have you watched their hands flying over the keyboard.
maryelizbethwinstead
Profile Joined April 2011
Mexico223 Posts
July 07 2011 02:55 GMT
#3855
Huk is on fire! I'm usuall a total korean homer, but he's a talented guy, and I'm glad he's winning! He's not scary yet, but I can totally see him taking out MC, who seems to have become quite inconsistent!

He seems to have developed a very acute "sense of danger" that comes from having being beaten by EVERYTHING in the past few months.

The ability to practice hard and well is a talent in itself.

On an aside, I dreamt that OGSTop was winning this GSL. My money's on him now.
Lord, teach me to be patient.
HolyArrow
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7116 Posts
July 07 2011 03:20 GMT
#3856
On July 07 2011 11:30 Redmark wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2011 10:29 HolyArrow wrote:
I don't get why people think there's no such thing as raw talent when it comes to video games. Your mind can naturally develop differently than others, just as your body can.

Because you can change your mind much more easily than you can change your body. (Almost) anyone can be a good scientist given enough study and motivation, but a lot of people simply don`t have the genes to be a good sprinter. Something like table tennis would be in the middle, I guess.
Imagine someone who has the raw talent to be a murderer. It certainly is a fair assumption, but you wouldn't just let that go, right? You'd try to change that. It doesn't have to be a major factor in your life. If you have the raw talent to get cancer there's not much you can do.


Uhhh... I really don't know how to respond to this, other than you're really, really wrong. Anyone can be a good scientist given enough study and motivation? While I'd argue that you're even wrong on that, I'd like to point out that your point is completely unrelated to what I'm saying. I'm talking about raw talent, while you're talking about being able to be good given enough practice and motivation. Those two are different things.
babylon
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
8765 Posts
July 07 2011 03:26 GMT
#3857
On July 07 2011 11:43 BRJ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2011 11:30 Redmark wrote:
On July 07 2011 10:29 HolyArrow wrote:
I don't get why people think there's no such thing as raw talent when it comes to video games. Your mind can naturally develop differently than others, just as your body can.

Because you can change your mind much more easily than you can change your body. (Almost) anyone can be a good scientist given enough study and motivation, but a lot of people simply don`t have the genes to be a good sprinter. Something like table tennis would be in the middle, I guess.
Imagine someone who has the raw talent to be a murderer. It certainly is a fair assumption, but you wouldn't just let that go, right? You'd try to change that. It doesn't have to be a major factor in your life. If you have the raw talent to get cancer there's not much you can do.


No they really really cant. I'm mid way through a PhD in engineering and it certainly isn't possible for everyone. It takes a combination of motivation and talent imagining someone could work hard and catch up is wrong, I have seen plenty of people work hard and fail.

Also I find it odd people don't think that starcraft requires physical prowess, have you watched their hands flying over the keyboard.

I don't really care to jump in on the talent argument, but keep in mind that there are factors besides raw talent that contribute to one's success (or lack thereof) in academic environments.

Having said that ... the Starcraft "physical prowess" can be trained. Yes, there are people who just have fast fingers, but even someone with mediocre hand speed can attain an insanely high APM once the movements become muscle memory. I mean, if you want a comparison, take a look at concert pianists: I assure you that not all of them were born with fast fingers.
imareaver3
Profile Joined June 2010
United States906 Posts
July 07 2011 03:38 GMT
#3858
On July 07 2011 09:55 OwlFeet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2011 09:51 JKira wrote:
On July 07 2011 08:07 lorkac wrote:
Idra has more raw talent than Huk.
Huk has more practice than Idra.

This is the classic foreigner vs Korean debate isn't it?


There's no such thing as raw talent when it comes to video games. It's not like a physical sport where your body type and athleticism can play a huge role in how good you are. The amount of practice you put in directly correlates to how good you will be in Starcraft 2. Where do you think IdrA got that "raw talent" from anyways? It's his great mechanics carrying over from BW where he was one of the hardest working foreigners.

Also, I don't see how it's a foreigner vs Korean debate. It seems more like a who is the best foreigner debate.


Just like there is no such thing as raw talent when it comes to how good you are academically.



Gauss would beg to differ.
Seditary
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia7033 Posts
July 07 2011 03:57 GMT
#3859
Wow, you people are talking some crazy stuff, and some of the statements almost made me retaliate with some deeply personal things I don't want to talk about with such people.

I think I'll stop checking on LR threads after the games are finished.
Love is more fun than hate.
s3183529
Profile Joined June 2011
Australia707 Posts
July 07 2011 04:34 GMT
#3860
I am really upset when MC and Huk have to fight each other...This bracket is fcked up
Prev 1 191 192 193 194 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
The PondCast
10:00
Episode 111
CranKy Ducklings SOOP26
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech136
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 26814
Shuttle 2867
Bisu 1000
Horang2 792
Jaedong 564
BeSt 384
Hyuk 328
firebathero 293
actioN 288
Light 239
[ Show more ]
Stork 198
Zeus 198
Mini 183
Soulkey 178
Soma 164
Last 133
EffOrt 120
Leta 114
ggaemo 108
Pusan 82
ZerO 81
Snow 72
Rush 63
Mong 54
hero 47
Killer 45
Sea.KH 40
Aegong 39
Mind 36
Sexy 32
Shine 32
NaDa 29
Sharp 24
Bale 24
Shinee 23
ToSsGirL 20
soO 18
sorry 15
Terrorterran 15
PianO 14
JulyZerg 14
Free 14
zelot 10
ajuk12(nOOB) 8
Noble 7
HiyA 7
Dota 2
Gorgc1279
qojqva1152
Dendi800
Fuzer 124
League of Legends
Reynor77
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1409
shoxiejesuss592
x6flipin272
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor1857
crisheroes703
Other Games
gofns39839
singsing2072
B2W.Neo493
XBOCT329
DeMusliM175
Liquid`LucifroN143
Mew2King114
Livibee109
XaKoH 107
ArmadaUGS106
QueenE75
ZerO(Twitch)11
Chillindude9
Railgan7
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream288
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 6
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 48
• Letter144
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos2195
• TFBlade326
Other Games
• WagamamaTV115
Upcoming Events
OSC
1h 20m
Stellar Fest
1h 20m
OSC
12h 20m
Stellar Fest
1d 1h
CranKy Ducklings
1d 22h
Online Event
1d 23h
FEL
2 days
AI Arena Tournament
2 days
BSL: Ladder Tournament
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
[ Show More ]
INu's Battles
3 days
herO vs Classic
Percival vs Rogue
BSL Open Qualifier
3 days
BSL Open Qualifier
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Rush vs Light
WardiTV Weekly
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Soma vs Soulkey
INu's Battles
4 days
SHIN vs Cure
ByuN vs Zoun
PiGosaur Cup
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
INu's Battles
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-09-28
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Calamity Invitational

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Custodian Cup
Copium Cup
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.