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Sniffy
Australia290 Posts
On June 26 2011 09:30 AntiGrav1ty wrote: Not really. His 2-rax defesne just looked so poor. Every Zerg has seen and dealt with that countless of times. every zerg has also lost to it countless times any idiot can execute 2rax pressure, but to stop it you actually have to do everything right. but that pretty much applies to most retard friendly pressure builds | ||
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antelope591
Canada820 Posts
On June 26 2011 07:54 YoungNeil wrote: The bolded sentence (emphasis mine) shows that you're not interested in doing any research (hint: type "IdrA" into the TL search bar and go the TLPD page listed), but rather making a vague and useless point because you feel like bashing IdrA. Interestingly, your argument was actually weakened by your unwillingness to do thirty seconds of research, because you would have discovered that IdrA has never won a major event that included European and Korean (and North American, you probably meant to say) players since the beta. It's too bad that you weren't interested in finding out what the truth actually was. Not that it matters, of course. We shouldn't judge a player by the number of tournaments they've won, but by the quality of play they show and the opponents they've defeated. The major tournaments IdrA has won (post-beta) are MLG DC and IPL Season 1, neither of which included notable Korean players. However, IdrA has a much longer and better record against Korean players than most foreigners, and has arguably the second-best results of any player in the GSL (after Jinro). If you care to know, only three non-Korean players have ever won a major tournament with players from Korea, Europe, and North America. They are Naama (DH Winter 2010), Thorzain (TSL3), and HuK (Dreamhack Summer 2011). Are they the best three foreigners because of that? Certainly not, although the latter two are definitely in the running. How about Naniwa, Select, KiWiKaKi, and, well, IdrA? Should we eliminate them from consideration because they've never won a tournament with players from all three regions, despite how well they may play? To be clear, I'm not even disagreeing with you. I think IdrA is overrated, but your reasons for saying so are silly. He's overrated because people consistently expect from him a higher level of performance than he manages to deliver. People always start out impressed, and then end up inevitably disappointed. The fact that IdrA has never won a tournament with Koreans in it is completely irrelevant, what matters is that he is losing at all when people think he won't, and delivering surprisingly poor play at times. That's how the term "overrated" works. Your IdrA-bashing seems to have nothing to do with that, although I noticed you stopped an inch short of saying he wasn't a top foreigner despite implying so. Saying he's "not any better than a number of top europeans" just means he's up there with the top Europeans, putting him among the best foreigners. Saying he's "definitely not top code S material at the moment" is also no surprise, even his more dedicated fanboys don't claim that (although perhaps they secretly think it, who knows). Not even the best foreigner is top Code S material right now, and that's arguably been the case since January. Yes, IdrA is overrated right now. Yes, his fans can be annoying. Despite that, criticizing him without looking to see if the arguments presented are actually rooted in fact is just as annoying. Fanboys and haters are no better than one another. Cool post but my main point was simply that hes overrated because his fans expect him to win every tourney when in fact he's only won tourneys that include NA players. Not living up to the hype = overrated. Then again u agreed with me so I dont see the point of the long paragraphs. Im aware of what tourneys Idra's won btw. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On June 26 2011 12:07 YoungNeil wrote: No, that's ridiculous. He's not some kind of tempestuous genius held back by his own internal struggles. He's a good player who also has issues with his mindset. Even when he seems to be in a good state of mind, he's just very good. "Good IdrA" still has good days and bad days, and Good IdrA can still lose on the best of days. I really hate how people are starting to act like IdrA has a huge amount of untapped potential just because they've seen him play some really amazing games. All good players do that. IdrA is more erratic than most players, but his play can swing toward the worse and toward the better, just like everybody else. I was making fun of Idra, because what I typed is what Idra seems to believe. What I actually think is that Idra is a player who will never achieve beyond mediocre success due to flaws in his mentality. If you tilt, you aren't ever going to beat a player of a similar caliber who doesn't tilt. And Idra tilts hard. edit : I just saw my thing about Shine in my sig, and it reminded me of something. After Shine beat Bisu Idra bashed him hard for being one of the players who could only ride muta micro to victory... but the point wassn't how they got there, it's that they actually got to the point of being able to beat Bisu in ZvP in a rather embarassing fashion for Bisu. | ||
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Headnoob
Australia2108 Posts
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YoungNeil
Canada328 Posts
On June 26 2011 12:08 antelope591 wrote: Cool post but my main point was simply that hes overrated because his fans expect him to win every tourney when in fact he's only won tourneys that include NA players. Not living up to the hype = overrated. Then again u agreed with me so I dont see the point of the long paragraphs. Im aware of what tourneys Idra's won btw. I'm just tired of vague arguments that look like they're designed to incite rage and not debate issues seriously, it's nothing personal. Maybe you do know what tournaments IdrA has won, but you said you didn't, and ignoring a player's actual results is a bad thing to do when you're using those results as a part of your argument. I also dislike the idea that titles won is a good measure of how skilled a player is, when it depends so much on which opponents they get matched up against, and which tournaments they have an opportunity to play in in the first place. Your post furthered that idea (with the additional clause that only tournaments with Koreans matter), and from what you say that was intentional. I feel confident saying that this is a pointless way to measure how good a player is compared to actual player versus player results. IdrA has never won a tournament with Koreans in it, but he's shown clearly that he can hold his own against players from every server. That matters much more than whether or not he managed to take a title, especially when so few foreigners (and just as few Koreans) have done so. So yes, while I think IdrA is overrated and you do too, I disagree with the way you made that point. It seems that we think the same thing for different reason, and I felt the need to distinguish between (what I consider to be) a strong argument and borderline flamebait. Given the recent quality of this thread I could have picked a much worse post than yours, but I wanted to avoid the obvious and suspected trolls. Sorry if my post was excessively long, but I like to do things thoroughly. :| | ||
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velocityqt
121 Posts
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RobotBodies
47 Posts
On June 26 2011 12:19 Headnoob wrote: Whoa i missed the tarson vs idra games, i'm guessing idra got cheesed out? Yeah, 2rax and hellion into banshee. But he doesn't have a solution to high level Protoss and more than likely wouldn't have gotten any further. His consistent high placement is a testament to his skill, but he won't win in tournaments with these high level toss until something changes, either in his approach or the game mechanics. | ||
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Highways
Australia6104 Posts
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YoungNeil
Canada328 Posts
On June 26 2011 12:12 Nevuk wrote: I was making fun of Idra, because what I typed is what Idra seems to believe. What I actually think is that Idra is a player who will never achieve beyond mediocre success due to flaws in his mentality. If you tilt, you aren't ever going to beat a player of a similar caliber who doesn't tilt. And Idra tilts hard. edit : I just saw my thing about Shine in my sig, and it reminded me of something. After Shine beat Bisu Idra bashed him hard for being one of the players who could only ride muta micro to victory... but the point wassn't how they got there, it's that they actually got to the point of being able to beat Bisu in ZvP in a rather embarassing fashion for Bisu. Okay, that's fair. I was influenced by the fact that there seem to be people who actually believe that IdrA's only enemy is himself. I definitely recognize that he's a player who's been held back by his own mentality, and may continue to be one, but we can't always blame his losses on him tilting. I don't think you're disagreeing with me or anything, but I wanted to clarify what I mean. | ||
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Headnoob
Australia2108 Posts
On June 26 2011 12:26 RobotBodies wrote: Yeah, 2rax and hellion into banshee. But he doesn't have a solution to high level Protoss and more than likely wouldn't have gotten any further. His consistent high placement is a testament to his skill, but he won't win in tournaments with these high level toss until something changes, either in his approach or the game mechanics. didn't mean it in an i love idra way, just wonderin after he absolutely destroyed tarson earlier  | ||
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Mycl
Australia1370 Posts
On June 26 2011 12:37 Headnoob wrote: didn't mean it in an i love idra way, just wonderin after he absolutely destroyed tarson earlier Tarson took his lessons in that series and went back to every Terrans bread and butter, the 2 rax pressure. | ||
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RobotBodies
47 Posts
On June 26 2011 12:37 Headnoob wrote: didn't mean it in an i love idra way, just wonderin after he absolutely destroyed tarson earlier I'm an Idra fan in that he's probably the best foreigner Zerg right now. But he has limitations at the moment. Cheese is hard to deal with for even the best of Zergs, you have to walk a fine line between trying to get ahead in economy (which you have to have to win later) and staying alive. Idra crushed Tarson when he stopped his early pressure in the first game of the series. If Tarson had not tried really early pressure, he likely would have had the same result as before. Tarson made the right choice to maximize his chances to win. | ||
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RobotBodies
47 Posts
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shaman6ix
Greece212 Posts
- no more tissues are left in the planet for all the zerg tears - idra is a 12yo whose candy was stolen - zerg IS supposed to beat protoss and terran as the metagame in korea shows us - his opponent is not himself, its all the other players he faces - he will never reach the class and entertainment value that MC provides to the audience - Huk likes the Hallucination research - games under 25 minutes are legitimate and allowed by Blizzard - everyone can beat him in a 'real game' - there is no law that says terran players should apologize for playing their race | ||
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gosu86
208 Posts
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SpecFire
United States1681 Posts
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s4life
Peru1519 Posts
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
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Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
On June 26 2011 12:11 Tachion wrote: I'm sorry but I can't find a half decent summary of Idra's games vs HuK anywhere. What happened in the three games? All I know is that Idra lost a game(s) to HuK's blink stalkers. Here you go: 1st game on Meta: Close air position. Huk went 4 gates, Idra scouted it but still put down a 3rd hatch(he did cancel later when Huk attack though). Somehow Huk screwed up, didn't manage to kill Idra, then it just snowball from there for Idra. Idra took game one. 2nd game on ST: Cross map position. Idra went for a semi all-in with 7 roaches while Huk 3 gates expand. Huk hold. Idra pull back, ninja a third. But Huk attack with a very good timing before Idra can benifit from his ninja 3rd base. Huk took the game with some good sentry FF. 3rd game on ..forgot the name of the map, but its the map where you can take the 2nd expo in your base. Huk went for 6 gates, but Idra scout it, Huk stay out and get his 3rd while Idra stop drone to defend the 6 gates but they never come. Huk go on to get blink 2-0 attack for his stalker while Idra mass roach. Idra nearly hold a 6-7 gates blink stalkers with 3-0 upgrade in the end while Idra roaches have only 1-0. Still Huk overwhelm Idra and Idra type "lol" before tap out. | ||
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