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On May 20 2011 13:05 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 13:04 wei2coolman wrote:The only thing that really irked me was that there was bad analysis that TB had.  , but all the play by play stuff was really good. So I can learn from that for future reference, can you point out the analysis that I did which you found incorrect? Would like to know what I misinterpreted so I can correct it in future.
One thing I noted (not really analysis but if you're asking and still reading I might as well mention it) was that it seemed like since you were speaking so well about the action going on in white-ra's base (certainly important) the observer was completely focused on that action with just a quick glance at tt1's base when the DT was in the mineral line chasing the probes away. Considering that TT1's forge finished and he could possibly try to get a cannon up for detection at home it wasn't immediately clear to me why TT1 had to GG out right as his stalkers died in white-ra's base.
I guess I'd say to be careful to be aware of what's going on outside the base even in a tense moment so that you can mention that it's going on (I didn't even know he had a DT in TT1's base til the obs panned over). It looked a lot more like TT1 was in a great position keeping those stalkers alive for so long.
Edit: Also unless I heard it wrong you initially said white-ra had great positioning in the final battle of the first game when it was TT1's positioning that let him get those 3 colossus kills despite being outgunned and some of white-ra's units were still busy with the nexus.
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On May 20 2011 13:05 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 13:04 wei2coolman wrote:The only thing that really irked me was that there was bad analysis that TB had. , but all the play by play stuff was really good. So I can learn from that for future reference, can you point out the analysis that I did which you found incorrect? Would like to know what I misinterpreted so I can correct it in future.
Its a trap! Obviously its all about TB's magnificence and infallibility, how can he possibly improve when he's too busy disrespecting the community and fellow casters?
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An update on the state of the game (who's ahead), is analysis.
Besides just that, 20 drone lead vs protoss isn't quite as ahead as most zergs would point out. (inb4 idra's rage about how overpowered protoss is)
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I think TB has been the best co-caster for gretorp yet. I feel that with incontrol + gretorp, incontrol takes too much center stage. Gretorp + idra was too mellow. Gretorp seems to like the analysis role IMO and TB can play-by-play without dominating the cast.
Neither of them are my fav casters (sorry! <3) but the duo worked well.
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United States7483 Posts
On May 20 2011 13:11 wei2coolman wrote:
An update on the state of the game (who's ahead), is analysis.
Ahead economically is just looking at raw numbers, but being ahead economically isn't necessarily being flat out ahead, and determining THAT requires analysis. TB did fine there.
Analysis is more saying whether something is good or bad, or what's likely to occur or why something has occurred how it did. Play by play is saying what is happening right now, and saying "He's ahead economically" is a statement of what is happening 'right now', and requires no analysis.
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On May 20 2011 13:08 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 13:06 wei2coolman wrote:
Well, the Incontrol/Moman, game when Moman was 3base to Incontrols 2 base, you said it was "huge economic advantage" for moman. when in reality for ZvP, 1 base up is a small advantage for zerg, not a huge economic one. True but if I remember correctly he had around a 20 worker supply advantage which would consistute a huge economic advantage at that stage of the game I would think?
Yeah, I think that was a pretty reasonable call. Zerg being a base up isn't necessarily a huge deal but the worker counts need to be fairly close. 60 drones vs 40 probes (to pick random numbers) means the zerg player is well ahead economically.
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On May 20 2011 13:09 unindel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 13:05 TotalBiscuit wrote:On May 20 2011 13:04 wei2coolman wrote:The only thing that really irked me was that there was bad analysis that TB had. , but all the play by play stuff was really good. So I can learn from that for future reference, can you point out the analysis that I did which you found incorrect? Would like to know what I misinterpreted so I can correct it in future. One thing I noted (not really analysis but if you're asking and still reading I might as well mention it) was that it seemed like since you were speaking so well about the action going on in white-ra's base (certainly important) the observer was completely focused on that action with just a quick glance at tt1's base when the DT was in the mineral line chasing the probes away. Considering that TT1's forge finished and he could possibly try to get a cannon up for detection at home it wasn't immediately clear to me why TT1 had to GG out right as his stalkers died in white-ra's base. I guess I'd say to be careful to be aware of what's going on outside the base even in a tense moment so that you can mention that it's going on (I didn't even know he had a DT in TT1's base til the obs panned over). It looked a lot more like TT1 was in a great position keeping those stalkers alive for so long.
i could have handled that situation much better, should have just warped sentrys and ffed my ramp endlessly until my cannon was up but i panicked and didnt think the game throught, when ur not a put in a certain situation a whole lot ur mind isnt trained to respond accordingly.. once i blinked in and saw the dt shrine i basically went DSJKGNSJDKGJBNSHJGKSJHKDBG
game 1 i basically got outplayed, he had great wp harass and constantly pulling my probes off the min line gave him the eco advantage
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On May 20 2011 13:11 wei2coolman wrote:
An update on the state of the game (who's ahead), is analysis.
Besides just that, 20 drone lead vs protoss isn't quite as ahead as most zergs would point out. (inb4 idra's rage about how overpowered protoss is)
Fair point. I felt I made use of unsuitable hyperbole there.
Thanks for the constructive criticism.
Anyway bedtime, thanks for watching guys and I hope you enjoyed it.
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United States7483 Posts
On May 20 2011 13:15 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 13:09 unindel wrote:On May 20 2011 13:05 TotalBiscuit wrote:On May 20 2011 13:04 wei2coolman wrote:The only thing that really irked me was that there was bad analysis that TB had. , but all the play by play stuff was really good. So I can learn from that for future reference, can you point out the analysis that I did which you found incorrect? Would like to know what I misinterpreted so I can correct it in future. One thing I noted (not really analysis but if you're asking and still reading I might as well mention it) was that it seemed like since you were speaking so well about the action going on in white-ra's base (certainly important) the observer was completely focused on that action with just a quick glance at tt1's base when the DT was in the mineral line chasing the probes away. Considering that TT1's forge finished and he could possibly try to get a cannon up for detection at home it wasn't immediately clear to me why TT1 had to GG out right as his stalkers died in white-ra's base. I guess I'd say to be careful to be aware of what's going on outside the base even in a tense moment so that you can mention that it's going on (I didn't even know he had a DT in TT1's base til the obs panned over). It looked a lot more like TT1 was in a great position keeping those stalkers alive for so long. i could have handled that situation much better, should have just warped sentrys and ffed my ramp endlessly until my cannon was up but i panicked and didnt think the game throught, when ur not a put in a certain situation a whole lot ur mind isnt trained to respond accordingly.. once i blinked in a saw the dt shrine i basically went DSJKGNSJDKGJBNSHJGKSJHKDBG
Pretty sure we've all been there at some point. Especially if your name is Artosis.
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On May 20 2011 13:15 TT1 wrote:
i basically went DSJKGNSJDKGJBNSHJGKSJHKDBG
Haha XD
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On May 20 2011 13:11 wei2coolman wrote:
An update on the state of the game (who's ahead), is analysis.
Besides just that, 20 drone lead vs protoss isn't quite as ahead as most zergs would point out. (inb4 idra's rage about how overpowered protoss is)
It's not difficult analysis, he's not describing potential strategies he thinks will happen or that type of thing. Besides even the non pro-gamer casters can talk about the stuff that's obvious by now, choke points and close positions, etc.
Also, Idra's rage won't be seen here for like another 80 days. :D
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United States97277 Posts
On May 20 2011 13:09 red4ce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 12:57 HoldenR wrote:On May 20 2011 12:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:On May 20 2011 12:48 Mordiford wrote:
This is the one thing I was worried about with TotalBiscuit doing duo casting, something you need to work on dude... When you go into super-speed-play-by-play mode, you don't let the other caster get a single word in.
Gretorp didn't have a chance to say anything towards the end, your play by play is good, but it feels really weird when one caster doesn't have room to say a word for such a long while... Gotta turn it down a notch. It's a pure play-by-play situation, there is no room or need for analysis. The analyst should not be talking. Sports commentary is not about sharing the mic 50/50, it's about fitting into your role and speaking at the correct time. This is why Gretorp takes the majority of the airtime during quieter moments and I take the majority of the airtime during high-action moments. That's how sports commentary works, it's also what we agreed to do before the cast. You have zero respect for both the people listening to your casts and the people you're casting with. You're the one who doesn't play this game enough nor do you understand most of what's going on, yet you insist you know better than all the fans who enjoy this game on how they should enjoy it. I felt the same way as the guy you're quoting, and I'm pretty sure we're not alone, because it was blatantly obvious that you were drowning Gretorp out. Please get off your high horse. You are not the best caster, you are not the end-all to casting, there is no set standard for SC2 casting, it's a very new scene, it's constantly evolving, and if you want to do well you're going to have to listen to the fans of the sport(note: not the fans of YOU specifically, but fans of the game: every single one) on how to both improve yourself and how they'd like to see casting done in general. You always take an attitude of "it's about me and my perspective", but it's not. It's about the fans. And if they disagree with you, often, maybe it's time to stop ignoring everything they say and start looking at your own performance - despite how hard it might be to admit that to yourself. TotalBiscuit please ignore posters like this. You did a good job today and most of us enjoy your commentary.
I second this. Sure, I do enjoy analytical commentary as well, but TB really brings in the enthusiasm everyone always claims is missing. It's always just complaining about how Doatrap is faking it too much. Idra is too monotone. Gretorp and incontrol blah blah blah. Honestly, this community will never be happy with any caster that isn't tastetosis, so there really isn't much of a point of trying to get feedback from here. As for drowning out Gretorp... I don't get you guys. You all complain about his commentary being useless, but if he doesn't say anything it's somehow worse? Make up your mind.
Good job tonight, guys. I enjoyed the broadcast.
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On May 20 2011 13:16 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 13:15 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2011 13:09 unindel wrote:On May 20 2011 13:05 TotalBiscuit wrote:On May 20 2011 13:04 wei2coolman wrote:The only thing that really irked me was that there was bad analysis that TB had. , but all the play by play stuff was really good. So I can learn from that for future reference, can you point out the analysis that I did which you found incorrect? Would like to know what I misinterpreted so I can correct it in future. One thing I noted (not really analysis but if you're asking and still reading I might as well mention it) was that it seemed like since you were speaking so well about the action going on in white-ra's base (certainly important) the observer was completely focused on that action with just a quick glance at tt1's base when the DT was in the mineral line chasing the probes away. Considering that TT1's forge finished and he could possibly try to get a cannon up for detection at home it wasn't immediately clear to me why TT1 had to GG out right as his stalkers died in white-ra's base. I guess I'd say to be careful to be aware of what's going on outside the base even in a tense moment so that you can mention that it's going on (I didn't even know he had a DT in TT1's base til the obs panned over). It looked a lot more like TT1 was in a great position keeping those stalkers alive for so long. i could have handled that situation much better, should have just warped sentrys and ffed my ramp endlessly until my cannon was up but i panicked and didnt think the game throught, when ur not a put in a certain situation a whole lot ur mind isnt trained to respond accordingly.. once i blinked in a saw the dt shrine i basically went DSJKGNSJDKGJBNSHJGKSJHKDBG Pretty sure we've all been there at some point. Especially if your name is Artosis.
So mean lol.
At least he won.
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That last game was confusing as hell. It was only when i looked at the chat and saw that the blue player had left the game first that i clicked that it was TT1 who had lost. I think in that circumstance Gretorp should have recognised the situation - that it was those stalkers vs 1 DT in TT1s base and put that over.
As a viewer all we saw were stalkers killing the probes then a game ending, with the knowledge that there was 1 dt in TT1s base. I knew TT1 had no detection but it was still a bit confusing for 10 seconds.
I think that might just be a screw up. It was very confusing, shit happens. But if Gretorp did know that's what was happening, he should have interrupted to make that clear whiule TB was so focused on the Stalkers in Whitera's base.
<3 Whitera
And i really enjoyed the TB Gretorp duo overall. It's good to get some real play by play style backed up with some good analysis for once. One of the more enjoyable duos, i'd like to see (hear) a lot more of it that's for sure.
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United States7483 Posts
On May 20 2011 13:22 Seditary wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 13:16 Whitewing wrote:On May 20 2011 13:15 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2011 13:09 unindel wrote:On May 20 2011 13:05 TotalBiscuit wrote:On May 20 2011 13:04 wei2coolman wrote:The only thing that really irked me was that there was bad analysis that TB had. , but all the play by play stuff was really good. So I can learn from that for future reference, can you point out the analysis that I did which you found incorrect? Would like to know what I misinterpreted so I can correct it in future. One thing I noted (not really analysis but if you're asking and still reading I might as well mention it) was that it seemed like since you were speaking so well about the action going on in white-ra's base (certainly important) the observer was completely focused on that action with just a quick glance at tt1's base when the DT was in the mineral line chasing the probes away. Considering that TT1's forge finished and he could possibly try to get a cannon up for detection at home it wasn't immediately clear to me why TT1 had to GG out right as his stalkers died in white-ra's base. I guess I'd say to be careful to be aware of what's going on outside the base even in a tense moment so that you can mention that it's going on (I didn't even know he had a DT in TT1's base til the obs panned over). It looked a lot more like TT1 was in a great position keeping those stalkers alive for so long. i could have handled that situation much better, should have just warped sentrys and ffed my ramp endlessly until my cannon was up but i panicked and didnt think the game throught, when ur not a put in a certain situation a whole lot ur mind isnt trained to respond accordingly.. once i blinked in a saw the dt shrine i basically went DSJKGNSJDKGJBNSHJGKSJHKDBG Pretty sure we've all been there at some point. Especially if your name is Artosis. So mean lol. At least he won.
I was actually talking about brood war lol, completely missed that he almost lost to DT's this week.
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On May 20 2011 12:57 HoldenR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 12:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:On May 20 2011 12:48 Mordiford wrote:
This is the one thing I was worried about with TotalBiscuit doing duo casting, something you need to work on dude... When you go into super-speed-play-by-play mode, you don't let the other caster get a single word in.
Gretorp didn't have a chance to say anything towards the end, your play by play is good, but it feels really weird when one caster doesn't have room to say a word for such a long while... Gotta turn it down a notch. It's a pure play-by-play situation, there is no room or need for analysis. The analyst should not be talking. Sports commentary is not about sharing the mic 50/50, it's about fitting into your role and speaking at the correct time. This is why Gretorp takes the majority of the airtime during quieter moments and I take the majority of the airtime during high-action moments. That's how sports commentary works, it's also what we agreed to do before the cast. You have zero respect for both the people listening to your casts and the people you're casting with. You're the one who doesn't play this game enough nor do you understand most of what's going on, yet you insist you know better than all the fans who enjoy this game on how they should enjoy it. I felt the same way as the guy you're quoting, and I'm pretty sure we're not alone, because it was blatantly obvious that you were drowning Gretorp out. Please get off your high horse. You are not the best caster, you are not the end-all to casting, there is no set standard for SC2 casting, it's a very new scene, it's constantly evolving, and if you want to do well you're going to have to listen to the fans of the sport(note: not the fans of YOU specifically, but fans of the game: every single one) on how to both improve yourself and how they'd like to see casting done in general. You always take an attitude of "it's about me and my perspective", but it's not. It's about the fans. And if they disagree with you, often, maybe it's time to stop ignoring everything they say and start looking at your own performance - despite how hard it might be to admit that to yourself.
You say that the fans disagree with him, but that's WAY too broad of a statement to make. A bunch of people whining about TB in a LR thread doesn't mean a whole lot. I totally agree with him that in that situation, it's best for the play-by-play commentator to just run with it. When a lot is going on, you need one person to focus on covering all of it, not having some back-and-forth banter analyzing everything. Hell, even watching the GSTL last night I was getting irritated that Doa and Moletrap both kept trying to talk / cheer / commentate at the same time when there's really only need for one of them to be covering the play-by-play in tense moments.
Not liking a caster is fine, but just bashing them based on your own opinion isn't really productive or reasonable.
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maybe a little out of topic but... what i really like about all this discussion about TB's analysis and stuff, is that comunity reads, and argues, and helps each other to understand (maybe not agree all times) each point. What i find valuable is that TB and TT1 actually take the time to read and respond to their criticism. You might not like their style (casting or playing -whatever-) but at least, we should all people admit that it takes some pants to face criticism and more if you do it in a MATURE way, like they have. Thank you community, to all of you, for being rational people (except when someone makes a joke or trolls, but that's a good part of all too -moderatedly of course-) and lets keep the good criticism, analisys, suggestions, etc, coming in a good manered way :D.
tl.net fighting!
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On May 20 2011 13:09 Seditary wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 13:05 TotalBiscuit wrote:On May 20 2011 13:04 wei2coolman wrote:The only thing that really irked me was that there was bad analysis that TB had. , but all the play by play stuff was really good. So I can learn from that for future reference, can you point out the analysis that I did which you found incorrect? Would like to know what I misinterpreted so I can correct it in future. Its a trap! Obviously its all about TB's magnificence and infallibility, how can he possibly improve when he's too busy disrespecting the community and fellow casters?
I'm not even going to bother pointing out the million different ways in which you are stupid. Therefore, I will just say that those million ways do, in fact, exist.
I'd love to see more Gretal Biscorp, as someone said. TT1 so awesome for talking about the match in this thread, it's not easy being on the receiving end of special tactics :-(
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On May 20 2011 13:15 TT1 wrote:
i basically went DSJKGNSJDKGJBNSHJGKSJHKDBG
Were you thinking in French, English or Persian at the time? Kinda look like you got confused there 
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EPT
