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On December 11 2011 18:47 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 18:39 Itsmedudeman wrote:On December 11 2011 18:08 Lysanias wrote:On December 11 2011 17:30 Zzoram wrote:On December 11 2011 17:29 mierin wrote:
ZvT just feels weird for me at the moment (at the highest levels). In SC2, as soon as a Terran reaches 10+ ghosts I almost want to stop watching the game as I know they're going to win with pretty much 100% certainty. The only game that I've seen which contests this view is that one Nerchio vs. Select game (forget which tourney, sorry). Mass ghosts (T1.5) absolutely slaughter any number of ultras/brood lords (T3)...just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
That being said, MVP played like a monster (even his mouth was open...haha). I know XiGua's lack of multitasking + spines/spores in his bases hindered him. I just can't see him winning that last game even with better multitasking and those defensive structures. Ghosts are T2 Marauders are T1.5 If you manage to catch ghosts with a fungal, they can lose ... EMP ? Better range ? Cloak ? So basicly you have to hope your enemy makes a mistake. Lings are they only good counter because of the shear mass. That's why you don't let the game get into that position in the first place.... Uh, remember MVP vs Nestea at Blizzcon? Ignoring how Nestea basically failed in the end of the game, what should he have done to NOT let MVP split map and get ghosts? Engage into turret/bunker/split tanks/marines/PF lines? Nydus (lol?) What are you even going to kill with drops? SCVs? Yeah, that lets them get even more max army. I still don't know why EMP, fungal, and feedback aren't all the same range.... That all being said, MVP is still a freaking monster right now. He's getting close to SC2 Bonjwa status. well, that's one of the reason that shakuras is being phased out of map pools
come to think of it, wcg might be the absolute last we see of it, barring amateur events and ladder
edit: it seems shakuras is in the blizzard cup. this makes sense, on account of that it's a sort of grand championship for all the tournaments this year. my point still stands though
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On December 11 2011 18:47 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 18:39 Itsmedudeman wrote:On December 11 2011 18:08 Lysanias wrote:On December 11 2011 17:30 Zzoram wrote:On December 11 2011 17:29 mierin wrote:
ZvT just feels weird for me at the moment (at the highest levels). In SC2, as soon as a Terran reaches 10+ ghosts I almost want to stop watching the game as I know they're going to win with pretty much 100% certainty. The only game that I've seen which contests this view is that one Nerchio vs. Select game (forget which tourney, sorry). Mass ghosts (T1.5) absolutely slaughter any number of ultras/brood lords (T3)...just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
That being said, MVP played like a monster (even his mouth was open...haha). I know XiGua's lack of multitasking + spines/spores in his bases hindered him. I just can't see him winning that last game even with better multitasking and those defensive structures. Ghosts are T2 Marauders are T1.5 If you manage to catch ghosts with a fungal, they can lose ... EMP ? Better range ? Cloak ? So basicly you have to hope your enemy makes a mistake. Lings are they only good counter because of the shear mass. That's why you don't let the game get into that position in the first place.... Uh, remember MVP vs Nestea at Blizzcon? Ignoring how Nestea basically failed in the end of the game, what should he have done to NOT let MVP split map and get ghosts? Engage into turret/bunker/split tanks/marines/PF lines? Nydus (lol?) What are you even going to kill with drops? SCVs? Yeah, that lets them get even more max army. I still don't know why EMP, fungal, and feedback aren't all the same range.... That all being said, MVP is still a freaking monster right now. He's getting close to SC2 Bonjwa status.
Woah woah woah! It's way too early to be slinging around that B word.
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Roaches are pretty good against ghosts (takes 4 snipes, or 3 and some shooting), but they just get countered by every other Terran unit  I wonder if Zerg will have to start carrying their infestors inside overlords like Protoss carry their HT to prevent EMPs 
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World Champion MVP...
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Finals went as expected. It didn't matter that Xigua went 14-0, MVPs TvZ is on another level than any of the opponents he faced before.
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On December 11 2011 18:39 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 18:08 Lysanias wrote:On December 11 2011 17:30 Zzoram wrote:On December 11 2011 17:29 mierin wrote:
ZvT just feels weird for me at the moment (at the highest levels). In SC2, as soon as a Terran reaches 10+ ghosts I almost want to stop watching the game as I know they're going to win with pretty much 100% certainty. The only game that I've seen which contests this view is that one Nerchio vs. Select game (forget which tourney, sorry). Mass ghosts (T1.5) absolutely slaughter any number of ultras/brood lords (T3)...just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
That being said, MVP played like a monster (even his mouth was open...haha). I know XiGua's lack of multitasking + spines/spores in his bases hindered him. I just can't see him winning that last game even with better multitasking and those defensive structures. Ghosts are T2 Marauders are T1.5 If you manage to catch ghosts with a fungal, they can lose ... EMP ? Better range ? Cloak ? So basicly you have to hope your enemy makes a mistake. Lings are they only good counter because of the shear mass. That's why you don't let the game get into that position in the first place....
That's my concern. In BW, there is no "if Terran gets to X place, you've lost and you should have done better." That place really shouldn't have any place in a competitive RTS.
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On December 11 2011 19:04 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 18:39 Itsmedudeman wrote:On December 11 2011 18:08 Lysanias wrote:On December 11 2011 17:30 Zzoram wrote:On December 11 2011 17:29 mierin wrote:
ZvT just feels weird for me at the moment (at the highest levels). In SC2, as soon as a Terran reaches 10+ ghosts I almost want to stop watching the game as I know they're going to win with pretty much 100% certainty. The only game that I've seen which contests this view is that one Nerchio vs. Select game (forget which tourney, sorry). Mass ghosts (T1.5) absolutely slaughter any number of ultras/brood lords (T3)...just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
That being said, MVP played like a monster (even his mouth was open...haha). I know XiGua's lack of multitasking + spines/spores in his bases hindered him. I just can't see him winning that last game even with better multitasking and those defensive structures. Ghosts are T2 Marauders are T1.5 If you manage to catch ghosts with a fungal, they can lose ... EMP ? Better range ? Cloak ? So basicly you have to hope your enemy makes a mistake. Lings are they only good counter because of the shear mass. That's why you don't let the game get into that position in the first place.... That's my concern. In BW, there is no "if Terran gets to X place, you've lost and you should have done better." That place really shouldn't have any place in a competitive RTS. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vj37yeQQHg
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On December 11 2011 18:55 delayed reflex wrote:Roaches are pretty good against ghosts (takes 4 snipes, or 3 and some shooting), but they just get countered by every other Terran unit I wonder if Zerg will have to start carrying their infestors inside overlords like Protoss carry their HT to prevent EMPs
I would love that to happen, it already make sense doing the same with HT, so why not Infestors 
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I heard there were gonna be replays from wcg, true or false? If true, where? :3
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On December 11 2011 18:55 delayed reflex wrote:Roaches are pretty good against ghosts (takes 4 snipes, or 3 and some shooting), but they just get countered by every other Terran unit I wonder if Zerg will have to start carrying their infestors inside overlords like Protoss carry their HT to prevent EMPs
problem with roaches is they use too much food in the endgame and like you said they get countered by everything else
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On December 11 2011 19:37 SmoKim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 18:55 delayed reflex wrote:Roaches are pretty good against ghosts (takes 4 snipes, or 3 and some shooting), but they just get countered by every other Terran unit I wonder if Zerg will have to start carrying their infestors inside overlords like Protoss carry their HT to prevent EMPs I would love that to happen, it already make sense doing the same with HT, so why not Infestors
Can't snipe Warp Prism. Really I think in these late game Ghost scenarios in TvZ Zerg players should focus on being impervious to drops and force the Terran army to engage them rather than always being the aggressor. Abandon Broodlord and Ultralisk tech and switch back into Muta/Ling/Bling. Terran's biggest weakness is the inability to reinforce as quickly as the other races so if Zerg can keep their bases up they should be able to exchange armies with Terran safely.
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On December 11 2011 19:00 Maenander wrote:
Finals went as expected. It didn't matter that Xigua went 14-0, MVPs TvZ is on another level than any of the opponents he faced before.
Xigua's wcg record is 12-2 icluding finals, not 14-0.
Mvp's wcg record is 14-2 including finals.
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On December 11 2011 17:48 nofacej wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 17:32 mierin wrote:On December 11 2011 17:30 Zzoram wrote:On December 11 2011 17:29 mierin wrote:
ZvT just feels weird for me at the moment (at the highest levels). In SC2, as soon as a Terran reaches 10+ ghosts I almost want to stop watching the game as I know they're going to win with pretty much 100% certainty. The only game that I've seen which contests this view is that one Nerchio vs. Select game (forget which tourney, sorry). Mass ghosts (T1.5) absolutely slaughter any number of ultras/brood lords (T3)...just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
That being said, MVP played like a monster (even his mouth was open...haha). I know XiGua's lack of multitasking + spines/spores in his bases hindered him. I just can't see him winning that last game even with better multitasking and those defensive structures. Ghosts are T2 Marauders are T1.5 If you manage to catch ghosts with a fungal, they can lose Do you need factories for ghosts? I play Zerg exclusively so that might have been an ignorant statement on my part haha. Anyhow, a high caliber Terran player will EMP/snipe infestors before the fungal happens because 1) cloak and 2) superior range. Like I said, I'm a Z so I'm raging a little b/c of that. Basically here's the cost of a Cloaked Ghost with Nuke for any non-Terrans wondering: 150 Minerals for the Barracks 50 Minerals + 25 Gas for the Tech Lab 150 Minerals + 50 Gas for the Ghost Academy 200 Minerals + 100 Gas for the Ghost 150 Minerals + 150 Gas for Personal Cloaking 100 Minerals + 100 Gas per Nuke So all up you're looking at 800 Minerals and 425 Gas for the first Cloaked Ghost with a Nuke. If you want multiple Nukes at a time you need another 150/50 for a second Ghost Academy and a further 100/100 for the second Nuke.
nukes require the factory. whether you are including that in the cost is kinda optional as a terran will always want either a factory or starport to support his bio
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On December 11 2011 15:07 hmsrenown wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 15:04 Luppy1 wrote:On December 11 2011 14:58 darkest44 wrote:
Xigua really didn't play "brilliant game" lets be honest... what did he do at all that was brilliant? All game he killed 1 CC and like 1 drop ship lol. MVP was toying with him. He did well. I mean, he couldnt attack into the terran because his entire army would get sniped (Point proven by what xigua tried to do at the end) At the same time, his ultralisk army cant respond to cheap and effective drops being done all over the place. Do tell me what xigua could have done better. This guy won everyone else 2-0 all the way through. Why are you trying to make it sound like he's bad or something. The problem is because he had poor showing in IEM and against MVP, everyone and their facebook friend is ready to completely shit on a young player in need of further development. I'm glad that he won't hear most of the stuff he's gonna receive from NA/EU observers.
I think outside of NA/EU, everyone already knows the chinese players are catching up fast. In fact, it shldnt surprise you if the standard of leagues are as following
KR > CN > EU > NA.
It was that way in BW and WC3, and imo, it already is that way in SC2.
Ppl just needs to drop their fan boy attitude and recognise that Xigua played a great tournament and was 2nd only to MVP. Its ironic that some ppl are basing his performance by ''1 CC and 1 Medivac killed all game'' when half the ppl are so blinded by favoritism, they cant tell a good player from an avg player in this tournament.
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On December 11 2011 20:09 Shortizz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 15:07 hmsrenown wrote:On December 11 2011 15:04 Luppy1 wrote:On December 11 2011 14:58 darkest44 wrote:
Xigua really didn't play "brilliant game" lets be honest... what did he do at all that was brilliant? All game he killed 1 CC and like 1 drop ship lol. MVP was toying with him. He did well. I mean, he couldnt attack into the terran because his entire army would get sniped (Point proven by what xigua tried to do at the end) At the same time, his ultralisk army cant respond to cheap and effective drops being done all over the place. Do tell me what xigua could have done better. This guy won everyone else 2-0 all the way through. Why are you trying to make it sound like he's bad or something. The problem is because he had poor showing in IEM and against MVP, everyone and their facebook friend is ready to completely shit on a young player in need of further development. I'm glad that he won't hear most of the stuff he's gonna receive from NA/EU observers. I think outside of NA/EU, everyone already knows the chinese players are catching up fast. In fact, it shldnt surprise you if the standard of leagues are as following KR > CN > EU > NA. It was that way in BW and WC3, and imo, it already is that way in SC2. Ppl just needs to drop their fan boy attitude and recognise that Xigua played a great tournament and was 2nd only to MVP.
How can you say that China is ahead of EU and NA already just after this tournament?
We'll need a bigger sample size before you can go ahead and say something like that. More Chinese players need to come out and play in more events. If anything, you sound like the fanboy here.
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It's funny cause xigua has had a top 5 GM account in KR for a while and then stephano comes along and makes top 20 and people go ballistic batshit insane with like 3 threads. They're both good players, but they all get different levels of recognition. Hopefully we'll get to see the chinese players actually participate in international tournaments more often.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On December 11 2011 15:16 Lavi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 15:11 windsupernova wrote:On December 11 2011 15:09 darkness wrote:On December 11 2011 15:08 slicknav wrote:On December 11 2011 15:05 darkness wrote:
Wait for BW pro gamers to fully switch to SC2 and adapt, then throw the Bonjwa stuff. We have had Nada, Boxer, and July all show mild success in SC2, but none have ever won anything major. MVP on the other hand, an ex-BW player, has been dominating for nearly a year. I can see why people would throw around the B word when describing him. I meant S class pro gamers such as Bisu, Stork, JaeDong, Flash, Fantasy, etc. Does it really matter now? They don't seem to be switching any time soon. We will worry about that when it happens(if it happens). So far MVP is the best SC2 player in the world Undeniable He's been top since i started playing this damn game ages ago, and my bro showed me one of his games and even then he was considered tops, and hes the only one til now to still be consistently up at the top while all the others like mkp fell off. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Lavi speaks wisdom again
Yes MVP is the best player in the world hands down. Yes best players lose games as well. But Mvp's the best of 2011 and the best player right this second. End of discussion.
On December 11 2011 20:13 DrakeFZX3 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 20:09 Shortizz wrote:On December 11 2011 15:07 hmsrenown wrote:On December 11 2011 15:04 Luppy1 wrote:On December 11 2011 14:58 darkest44 wrote:
Xigua really didn't play "brilliant game" lets be honest... what did he do at all that was brilliant? All game he killed 1 CC and like 1 drop ship lol. MVP was toying with him. He did well. I mean, he couldnt attack into the terran because his entire army would get sniped (Point proven by what xigua tried to do at the end) At the same time, his ultralisk army cant respond to cheap and effective drops being done all over the place. Do tell me what xigua could have done better. This guy won everyone else 2-0 all the way through. Why are you trying to make it sound like he's bad or something. The problem is because he had poor showing in IEM and against MVP, everyone and their facebook friend is ready to completely shit on a young player in need of further development. I'm glad that he won't hear most of the stuff he's gonna receive from NA/EU observers. I think outside of NA/EU, everyone already knows the chinese players are catching up fast. In fact, it shldnt surprise you if the standard of leagues are as following KR > CN > EU > NA. It was that way in BW and WC3, and imo, it already is that way in SC2. Ppl just needs to drop their fan boy attitude and recognise that Xigua played a great tournament and was 2nd only to MVP. How can you say that China is ahead of EU and NA already just after this tournament? We'll need a bigger sample size before you can go ahead and say something like that. More Chinese players need to come out and play in more events. If anything, you sound like the fanboy here.
Yer in fact, in most interviews, pros like Xigua, F91, loveCD, loveTT all prefer to practice on the Kr server for real practice. They reckon the player pool simply isn't big enough on the Chinese server. + you end up just meeting the same few dudes at the top of the CN server which is a total lamer.
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On December 11 2011 20:13 DrakeFZX3 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 20:09 Shortizz wrote:On December 11 2011 15:07 hmsrenown wrote:On December 11 2011 15:04 Luppy1 wrote:On December 11 2011 14:58 darkest44 wrote:
Xigua really didn't play "brilliant game" lets be honest... what did he do at all that was brilliant? All game he killed 1 CC and like 1 drop ship lol. MVP was toying with him. He did well. I mean, he couldnt attack into the terran because his entire army would get sniped (Point proven by what xigua tried to do at the end) At the same time, his ultralisk army cant respond to cheap and effective drops being done all over the place. Do tell me what xigua could have done better. This guy won everyone else 2-0 all the way through. Why are you trying to make it sound like he's bad or something. The problem is because he had poor showing in IEM and against MVP, everyone and their facebook friend is ready to completely shit on a young player in need of further development. I'm glad that he won't hear most of the stuff he's gonna receive from NA/EU observers. I think outside of NA/EU, everyone already knows the chinese players are catching up fast. In fact, it shldnt surprise you if the standard of leagues are as following KR > CN > EU > NA. It was that way in BW and WC3, and imo, it already is that way in SC2. Ppl just needs to drop their fan boy attitude and recognise that Xigua played a great tournament and was 2nd only to MVP. How can you say that China is ahead of EU and NA already just after this tournament? We'll need a bigger sample size before you can go ahead and say something like that. More Chinese players need to come out and play in more events. If anything, you sound like the fanboy here.
Im not a huge fan of the chinese players. What i was implying was that Chinese players will eventually catch up just like they did in WC3 and BW. Btw, OUTSIDE of NA/EU, ppl already knew how good Xigua is, and NA Pro has the ability to hold a top 20 KR spot for so long? I guess it shld be more like
KR > CN = EU > NA
If that makes you feel better.
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On December 11 2011 20:09 Shortizz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 15:07 hmsrenown wrote:On December 11 2011 15:04 Luppy1 wrote:On December 11 2011 14:58 darkest44 wrote:
Xigua really didn't play "brilliant game" lets be honest... what did he do at all that was brilliant? All game he killed 1 CC and like 1 drop ship lol. MVP was toying with him. He did well. I mean, he couldnt attack into the terran because his entire army would get sniped (Point proven by what xigua tried to do at the end) At the same time, his ultralisk army cant respond to cheap and effective drops being done all over the place. Do tell me what xigua could have done better. This guy won everyone else 2-0 all the way through. Why are you trying to make it sound like he's bad or something. The problem is because he had poor showing in IEM and against MVP, everyone and their facebook friend is ready to completely shit on a young player in need of further development. I'm glad that he won't hear most of the stuff he's gonna receive from NA/EU observers. I think outside of NA/EU, everyone already knows the chinese players are catching up fast. In fact, it shldnt surprise you if the standard of leagues are as following KR > CN > EU > NA. It was that way in BW and WC3, and imo, it already is that way in SC2. Ppl just needs to drop their fan boy attitude and recognise that Xigua played a great tournament and was 2nd only to MVP. Its ironic that some ppl are basing his performance by ''1 CC and 1 Medivac killed all game'' when half the ppl are so blinded by favoritism, they cant tell a good player from an avg player in this tournament.
1 tournament we saw how poorly the chinese did at IEM china nahh China got a long way yet to catch up to EU and NA
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On December 11 2011 20:19 Shortizz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 20:13 DrakeFZX3 wrote:On December 11 2011 20:09 Shortizz wrote:On December 11 2011 15:07 hmsrenown wrote:On December 11 2011 15:04 Luppy1 wrote:On December 11 2011 14:58 darkest44 wrote:
Xigua really didn't play "brilliant game" lets be honest... what did he do at all that was brilliant? All game he killed 1 CC and like 1 drop ship lol. MVP was toying with him. He did well. I mean, he couldnt attack into the terran because his entire army would get sniped (Point proven by what xigua tried to do at the end) At the same time, his ultralisk army cant respond to cheap and effective drops being done all over the place. Do tell me what xigua could have done better. This guy won everyone else 2-0 all the way through. Why are you trying to make it sound like he's bad or something. The problem is because he had poor showing in IEM and against MVP, everyone and their facebook friend is ready to completely shit on a young player in need of further development. I'm glad that he won't hear most of the stuff he's gonna receive from NA/EU observers. I think outside of NA/EU, everyone already knows the chinese players are catching up fast. In fact, it shldnt surprise you if the standard of leagues are as following KR > CN > EU > NA. It was that way in BW and WC3, and imo, it already is that way in SC2. Ppl just needs to drop their fan boy attitude and recognise that Xigua played a great tournament and was 2nd only to MVP. How can you say that China is ahead of EU and NA already just after this tournament? We'll need a bigger sample size before you can go ahead and say something like that. More Chinese players need to come out and play in more events. If anything, you sound like the fanboy here. Im not a huge fan of the chinese players. What i was implying was that Chinese players will eventually catch up just like they did in WC3 and BW. Btw, OUTSIDE of NA/EU, ppl already knew how good Xigua is, and NA Pro has the ability to hold a top 20 KR spot for so long? I guess it shld be more like KR > CN = EU > NA If that makes you feel better.
Again, how are your rankings making any sense? How can you name only one Chinese player that is good and then go on to say CN = EU? You're jumping the gun. Until more Chinese players come out to more events and show their skill, you can't just make that assertion. You're making assumptions that have YET to come true by saying "eventually" and then making your rankings based off of future predictions.
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EPT
