EPT[TSL] Ro4 Day 2 - Page 136
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
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navara
France95 Posts
On May 09 2011 05:23 Kiarip wrote: PvP is like the hardest match up in the game in terms of game sense and micro. It's the ZvZ of SC2. forgot the elitism banner ? | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
1. Cannon wall-in to defend 4 gate in Game 3 -> simply does not work, at least not with that kind of timing and wall-in. Protoss units have too much health and shield to be deterred by a few cannons. They will simply crush one cannon or in this case the blocking stalkers and move into the base. If you're going to cannon defend you need them at the top of a small choke like the ramp. Then you can defend, but you still won't be able to secure your expansion, which is the reason most cannon builds aren't econ builds in PvP but tech builds. Had Hasu pulled some probes in this situation he could've defended but it would've defeated the point of the econ build. 2. Not checking an obvious proxy position in Game 4, and then over-committing to the defense. Hasu thought this was a 2 gate all-in by Nani, but it was a clever one gate econ harass cheese. Hasu responded okay to the zealots, but his cannon was out of position and Nani exploited that and did way more damage than he should have with, effectively, a one gate zealot rush. 3. Transitioning from 4 gate in Game 5 -> as a defender you can't really transition from a 4 gate before your opponent does, unless you have way more units than him, or you have a ramp that you can FF. In this case Hasu had neither. Transitioning is safer for Nani because Hasu could never be sure that Nani is transitioning, since Nani could always hide his extra gateway units somewhere outside Hasu's base, making it risky to push out. The right decision would've been to simply build up a larger army until you see that your opponent is not going to attack, which you would roughly know because either he attacks you before you could exploit any tech advantage you might have gained had you transitioned, or he doesn't in which case he is likely transitioning himself. Game 2 was more of a coin flip as I think he just scouted Naniwa's 4 gate way too late and by the time the 4 gate hit it was a downhill situation. His misplaced sentry also cost him dearly. | ||
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foxmeep
Australia2337 Posts
On May 09 2011 05:23 Kiarip wrote: PvP is like the hardest match up in the game in terms of game sense and micro. It's the ZvZ of SC2. I have to disagree. Speedling/bane micro is far more difficult than 4 gate micro. Edit: and being able to read your opponent's build is also extremely difficult. | ||
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Jiddra
Sweden2685 Posts
 LOLhttp://www.rakaka.se/ Edit: And the King getting a place in all of of this | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
What elitism banner? It's the truth. I'm not saying that it's the hardest match up in every aspect. You need way more macro in ZvZ, and a lot of positioning and ability to use the map in TvT... I said it's the hardest match up in the game in terms of game sense and micro, hence why I said it's the ZvZ of SC2 (BW ZvZ,) because that's how ZvZ was in BW, it didn't take amazing macro, management skills, or timing improvisations. It just required you to make sick reads off the smallest amount of info, and micro like a monster. That's what PvP is in SC2. On May 09 2011 05:23 Kiarip wrote: PvP is like the hardest match up in the game in terms of game sense and micro. It's the ZvZ of SC2. I have to disagree. Speedling/bane micro is far more difficult than 4 gate micro. Edit: and being able to read your opponent's build is also extremely difficult. Well in ZvZ on many maps you can avoid the speedling/bane altogether, a lot of ZvZs at least in my experience can go into the mid and late-game where more becomes about macro. I don't think that speedling/baneling micro is necessary more difficult with good hotkey set-ups for it than stalker-zealot. In stalker zealot 1 hit won't win/lose you a bunch of units, but in order to build a consistent advantage you need to consistently get more hits in with your stalkers while avoiding zealots. ling/baneling is less forgiving, I agree. As for scouting, all mirrors experience this problem in the early game, but PvP completely revolves in it. There are "safe builds," and not so safe builds in ZvZ. In PvP there's no such thing a safe build. | ||
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ComusLoM
Norway3547 Posts
On May 09 2011 05:30 Jiddra wrote: I love the small banner that rakaka put up LOLhttp://www.rakaka.se/ Edit: And the King getting a place in all of of this That is amazing. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On May 09 2011 05:30 foxmeep wrote: I have to disagree. Speedling/bane micro is far more difficult than 4 gate micro. Edit: and being able to read your opponent's build is also extremely difficult. Yeah, ling / bane micro is quicker, your units are smaller, mistakes can cost you more (IMO) and on top of that you need to always hit the injects or you'll fall behind. Ofc you need to use the chronoboost in PvP but it's not as unforgiving. | ||
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Unolydkswe
Sweden8 Posts
gj nani! | ||
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knL
Germany400 Posts
ahaha typical rakaka :D | ||
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LittLeD
Sweden7973 Posts
On May 09 2011 04:53 HuskyTheHusky wrote: Thanks for watching guys! Congratulations to the Swedes for once again showing they are one of the biggest power houses in eSports ♥ Excellent casting today sir! I applaud you and Day9/TL for your efforts! Tournament has been a blast | ||
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Vaeila
Netherlands336 Posts
Anyway could someone please post the end results in spoiler tags, the last 50 pages are full of swedish/german fans flamebaiting eachother. | ||
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Rabbitmaster
1357 Posts
On May 09 2011 05:30 Jiddra wrote: I love the small banner that rakaka put up LOLhttp://www.rakaka.se/ Edit: And the King getting a place in all of of this Haha awesome stuff! Nani, thorzain and then the King... I was like wtf :D Edit: Just listened to the Swedish national anthem linken there... Forget how beautiful it is sometimes :> | ||
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Vimsey
United Kingdom2235 Posts
On May 09 2011 05:35 hugman wrote: Yeah, ling / bane micro is quicker, your units are smaller, mistakes can cost you more (IMO) and on top of that you need to always hit the injects or you'll fall behind. Ofc you need to use the chronoboost in PvP but it's not as unforgiving. You also have to hit your warpgate timings which are as unforgiving. I see little difference between zvz and pvp they are equally hard on the smallest of mistakes and decisions though banelings are very volatile each zealot and stalker are equally precious. Maybe after the next patch players will leave them as gateways and avoid mis-timings early game by queuing up units which would be a step back in the matchup. | ||
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cujo2k
Canada1044 Posts
On May 09 2011 05:51 Vaeila wrote: Arent OP's that dont update their LR thread supposed to be banned? Yea well good luck getting Hot_Bid banned sir  Will be updated soon I'd think. | ||
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cptKewk
Sweden87 Posts
This TSL has been full of great games! Hoping for another epic series :D Would absolutely love a summarizing long video of the whole thing when it's over, with all the epic qoutes from casters, some narrator with an epic voice taking us through the whole thing, would be so sweeet. I'm thinking of something like a chronicle of TSL3 like what, at least in Sweden, is made after like a World championship in football ("soccer") | ||
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Mr. Daisy
United States17 Posts
On May 09 2011 05:23 Kiarip wrote: PvP is like the hardest match up in the game in terms of game sense and micro. It's the ZvZ of SC2. I think TvT requires a lot more game sense, and more or less equivalent micro. More diversity in builds and having to anticipate drops/banshee harrass, as well as carefully positioning your army to block your opponents attack/retreat routes, and knowing exactly how much of your opponents army is entrenched and how much is moving around the map, and gauging tank vs bio vs air composition is a lot more dependent on "game sense" then 4gate battles and knowing when to transition out of it. IMO | ||
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Jisall
United States2054 Posts
On May 09 2011 05:55 cujo2k wrote: Yea well good luck getting Hot_Bid banned sir Will be updated soon I'd think.Starting Petition. Vote number 1. | ||
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Jiddra
Sweden2685 Posts
On May 09 2011 05:52 Rabbitmaster wrote: Haha awesome stuff! Nani, thorzain and then the King... I was like wtf :D Edit: Just listened to the Swedish national anthem linken there... Forget how beautiful it is sometimes :> Yea, was only missing the epic lyrics | ||
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