Dreamhack Invitational - Page 598

On April 13 2011 07:31 Grantiere wrote:


This may be true, but those people are still being childish prats for imposing what they want as spectators upon the players. Look at Brood War, where build orders/unit compositions are basically set in stone. Should I hate on all the top Terran players for not being 'innovative' and using pure bio in TvP?

People seem to equate using bizarre strats as having more skill. I say whoever wins the most has more skill, but call me old fashioned.

You don't win a "long macro game" dominantly. Either both sides are too passive at some stage of the game, or one side is dominant and it never gets to the "long macro" state. Idra played really well and was arguably ahead in the late midgame, but didn't dominate MC at any stage - otherwise he would have won earlier. Some would argue that Idra should have but was too passive; you could make the case that if MC hit either the natural or third with his ground while phoenix harassing, the game would have ended really early and you'd be complaining about how MC was too afraid to get into a macro game with Idra.

White-ra opens a flexible but slightly risky 2-gate stalker over and over in multiple series in different tournaments on multiple maps, all against the same opponent, and as result, is everyone's favorite.

If MC wins a long macro game, it's because he's protoss.
If MC loses a long macro game, it's because his builds are risky and he's not a complete player.
If MC wins a short game, it's because all he knows how to do are mindless 1-2 base all-in pushes.
If MC loses a short game, it's because his opponent "dominated" him or massively outplayed him.
If MC cheeses a game and wins, it's because he's a "newb," a "hack," or he's "afraid of his opponent."
If MC cheeses a game and loses, he's suicide toss.

MC wins series. He wins tournaments. He plays with the cards dealt to him, he plays his opponent. There will someday be someone more effective than him, likely sooner rather than later, but for now, there isn't.

Starcraft 2 may be a game, but I see a series or set of series more as a war simulation, and MC better exemplifies the concepts from The Art of War than any other top-level SC2 player today. He defended well; most pros wouldn't have held Morrow's well-timed push. More often than not he chose good times and places to fight. More importantly, he gathered information. He kept his head about him better than his adversaries, with Idra tilting and White-ra's scouting lapse in the final games of those series. He was unconventional when it was least expected and most advantageous.

We like the big fights, the big macro games, because of the grandeur and spectacle and panapoly of large forces slugging it out - a digital example of Robert E. Lee's observation that "It is well that war is so terrible - otherwise we would grow too fond of it." We see the ability of reaching that point and winning as skill, since as Napoleon put it, "God is on the side of the biggest battalions." We celebrate the amassing of the biggest battalions because it's proven to be successful and sustainable. Idra certainly takes this approach, and White-ra implies it when he says his opponents (San and MC) "don't want longer games."

But it's not the only approach. If amassing big battalions is what your opponent wants to do and is best at, don't let him do it. Sun Tzu posits that "the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans." That's pretty much what MC does. His aggression is faster and stronger better executed than anyone else's, and it takes people out of their prepared gameplan. It doesn't always work; the best pros at the top of their game can sometimes recover and respond (Morrow's win, Idra game 1, White-ra game 2), but it works often enough and leaves a strong enough impression that it seems to carry from one set to the next. You can see how intimidated his peers were at the GSL Code S selection events, or from Idra's pre-tourney interview. Like MVP, at some point he'll lose some, be less intimidating, and lose more, but it hasn't happened yet. When it does, he'll be another very good player. No need to tear him down now.

On April 13 2011 07:31 Grantiere wrote:


You don't win a "long macro game" dominantly. Either both sides are too passive at some stage of the game, or one side is dominant and it never gets to the "long macro" state. Idra played really well and was arguably ahead in the late midgame, but didn't dominate MC at any stage - otherwise he would have won earlier. Some would argue that Idra should have but was too passive; you could make the case that if MC hit either the natural or third with his ground while phoenix harassing, the game would have ended really early and you'd be complaining about how MC was too afraid to get into a macro game with Idra.

White-ra opens a flexible but slightly risky 2-gate stalker over and over in multiple series in different tournaments on multiple maps, all against the same opponent, and as result, is everyone's favorite.

If MC wins a long macro game, it's because he's protoss.
If MC loses a long macro game, it's because his builds are risky and he's not a complete player.
If MC wins a short game, it's because all he knows how to do are mindless 1-2 base all-in pushes.
If MC loses a short game, it's because his opponent "dominated" him or massively outplayed him.
If MC cheeses a game and wins, it's because he's a "newb," a "hack," or he's "afraid of his opponent."
If MC cheeses a game and loses, he's suicide toss.

MC wins series. He wins tournaments. He plays with the cards dealt to him, he plays his opponent. There will someday be someone more effective than him, likely sooner rather than later, but for now, there isn't.

Starcraft 2 may be a game, but I see a series or set of series more as a war simulation, and MC better exemplifies the concepts from The Art of War than any other top-level SC2 player today. He defended well; most pros wouldn't have held Morrow's well-timed push. More often than not he chose good times and places to fight. More importantly, he gathered information. He kept his head about him better than his adversaries, with Idra tilting and White-ra's scouting lapse in the final games of those series. He was unconventional when it was least expected and most advantageous.

We like the big fights, the big macro games, because of the grandeur and spectacle and panapoly of large forces slugging it out - a digital example of Robert E. Lee's observation that "It is well that war is so terrible - otherwise we would grow too fond of it." We see the ability of reaching that point and winning as skill, since as Napoleon put it, "God is on the side of the biggest battalions." We celebrate the amassing of the biggest battalions because it's proven to be successful and sustainable. Idra certainly takes this approach, and White-ra implies it when he says his opponents (San and MC) "don't want longer games."

But it's not the only approach. If amassing big battalions is what your opponent wants to do and is best at, don't let him do it. Sun Tzu posits that "the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans." That's pretty much what MC does. His aggression is faster and stronger better executed than anyone else's, and it takes people out of their prepared gameplan. It doesn't always work; the best pros at the top of their game can sometimes recover and respond (Morrow's win, Idra game 1, White-ra game 2), but it works often enough and leaves a strong enough impression that it seems to carry from one set to the next. You can see how intimidated his peers were at the GSL Code S selection events, or from Idra's pre-tourney interview. Like MVP, at some point he'll lose some, be less intimidating, and lose more, but it hasn't happened yet. When it does, he'll be another very good player. No need to tear him down now.

On April 13 2011 06:51 loveeholicce wrote:
There's a difference between being disappointed in the games and being disappointed in the player. I was disappointed by the last game, and in general I dislike watching MC because I dislike the abusive, all in style he employs in the vast majority of his games. That being said, I have nothing against MC himself. He tries to win and he picks strategies that play to his strengths (his micro) and cloud his *relative* weaknesses (his management). There's nothing wrong with that so theres really no reason to blame MC or hate on him but it still doesn't mean I don't find his games boring, stupid, and anti climatic,

On April 13 2011 07:09 skrzmark wrote:
The only Korean that doesn't get crap for cheesing is Boxer.