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On December 02 2010 06:14 DMKraft wrote:
I have been surprised by the number of zergs who have been winning on SoW. I guess they see it as a weakness and train hard on it. Idra, FD, Check and I am sure at least 1 other Zerg won on SoW this round.
Fruit won because he took a very risky expansion (that he could not defend if it was attacked), and the terran never scouted it. AKA, his opponent screwed up.
MVP lost like 13 blue flame hellions without really doing ANY DAMAGE except killing a few zerglings.
Again, this was MVP screwing up.
I have not seen a game yet where neither player in a TvZ or PvZ makes a massive mistake, so cannot really judge that map yet for the new meta game... :/
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if anyone is interested - i updated my GSL 3 statistics excel file, also has short description of all the games and brackets
![[image loading]](https://s3.amazonaws.com/summerloud/sc2reps/stats.jpg)
interesting stats:
-zergs are eliminated at an alarming rate, prolly also due to the no-map-veto system?
-matches involving protoss are very short in general
-matches on steppes and blistering are much shorter on average than on any other maps
-xnc is now actually the map with the longest matches
ofc, all to be taken with a grain of salt due to the small amount of matches
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[B]On December 02 2010 06:21 summerloud wrote:
-zergs are eliminated at an alarming rate, prolly also due to the no-map-veto system?
i'll join the terran and zerg bandwagon of haters against protoss and say what they say: that they were just bad and got through ez.
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Also from those statistics, the only clearly imbalanced map is Jungle Basin TvZ. Probably due to it being bad for Zerg (obv.), and also being new so Zergs haven't had time to figure it out like they have with Steepes of War.
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On December 02 2010 06:21 summerloud wrote:if anyone is interested - i updated my GSL 3 statistics excel file, also has short description of all the games and brackets interesting stats: -zergs are eliminated at an alarming rate, prolly also due to the no-map-veto system? -matches involving protoss are very short in general -matches on steppes and blistering are much shorter on average than on any other maps -xnc is now actually the map with the longest matches ofc, all to be taken with a grain of salt due to the small amount of matches
this is why i love this site
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Oh wow. A LOT of upsets in my opinion. GO JINRO!!!!! (winro?)
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I was realy impresed by Jinros play today, it's realy nice to see a terran that knows his macro ^ ^
Now i'm a fan of his, and i hope he does well in the future.
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On December 02 2010 06:35 emperorchampion wrote:
Also from those statistics, the only clearly imbalanced map is Jungle Basin TvZ. Probably due to it being bad for Zerg (obv.), and also being new so Zergs haven't had time to figure it out like they have with Steepes of War.
Well OF COURSE, being played only since GSL2... And not to forget... Zerg didn't have time to figure it out because Terran got to play this map way earlier than zergs did!
God I love the SC2 subforum xD
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Today was devastating.
1) BoxeR is out
2) Check is out
3) IdrA is out
4) Moon is out
Jinro is through though which is at least some good news. Shame he had to knock Moon out in the process.
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On December 02 2010 06:57 Djin)ftw( wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 06:35 emperorchampion wrote:
Also from those statistics, the only clearly imbalanced map is Jungle Basin TvZ. Probably due to it being bad for Zerg (obv.), and also being new so Zergs haven't had time to figure it out like they have with Steepes of War. Well OF COURSE, being played only since GSL2... And not to forget... Zerg didn't have time to figure it out because Terran got to play this map way earlier than zergs did! God I love the SC2 subforum xD
He was clearly implying terrans is easier to play/learn than zerg so zergs would need longer time to figure out certain maps.
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On December 01 2010 22:59 Wivyx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 17 MiniTsunami wrote:
Gonna be some awesome games tonight!!!
My Hopes and Dreams:
Jinro 2-1 Moon
IdrA 2-1 MVP
Choya 2-1 Check
Boxer 2-0 Polt
My Predictions:
Jinro 2-0 Moon
MVP 2-1 IdrA
Choya 2-1 Check
Polt 2-1 Boxer That is some killer predictions. Wow!
Haha yeah i've run into MVP on the ladder and knew he was scary good and i'm a GSL addict :D
On December 01 2010 22:32 Roffles wrote:
MiniTsunami, can you pick my lottery numbers for me?
But then I wouldn't have any luck left to pick GSL games!!
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On December 02 2010 06:21 summerloud wrote:if anyone is interested - i updated my GSL 3 statistics excel file, also has short description of all the games and brackets interesting stats: -zergs are eliminated at an alarming rate, prolly also due to the no-map-veto system? -matches involving protoss are very short in general -matches on steppes and blistering are much shorter on average than on any other maps -xnc is now actually the map with the longest matches ofc, all to be taken with a grain of salt due to the small amount of matches
Do you think you could separate the times for the wins.
For example
PvT - Protoss winner Average game length - 15 minutes.
PvT - Terran winner Average game length - 10 minutes.
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
san idra didnt make it tho
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On December 02 2010 06:21 Mainland wrote:On game 3 Idra vs MVP + Show Spoiler +In close positions on Metalopolis, the flaw with going hatch-first requires a zerg to defend any early pushes with drones. I rewatched the match, and here's what I noticed:
Between 3:40 and 5:10, Idra constantly had between 5-7 drones off mining (not counting the ones that died), either to transfer (for the first 10 seconds) or to fend of the marine push. Throughout that time he lost either 4 or 5 drones to the push. After the push was fended of, he was left with 14 drones, so that means between 3:40 and 5:10, at no time did he more than 16 drones. Remember for early game zerg, 17 drones can mine off 1 base with no loss in efficiency (I'm accounting for the typical 1 drone on gas).
Now if you hypothetically substitute each one of those drones for 2 zerglings, he lost 8-10 zerglings worth of drones, and kept 10-14 zerglings off mining for 1.5 minutes. Had he gone spawning pool first, he could have easily had enough zerglings or an earlier spinecrawler (but that would've been in the main so it wouldn't be as effective) to fend off the attack while having a similar or stronger economy.
Another thing that we need to account for is the added production gained from the second hatchery. When going pool first, depending on whether zerg opts for a hatchery immediately after spawning pool, or if he delays the second hatch, a queen in a pool-first build can pop around the same time as a second hatch in a hatch-first build. I think something like a 14-pool, 15-hatch would be best on close positions (or even an 11-pool 18-hatch, if someone can make that build work with zerglings added in), so that build compared to hatch first sacrifice about a minute of early production but compensates for it a little later with an earlier queen.
Last thing to account for is how much the knowledge the two players had before the chose their build. Idra went hatch-first after scouting the mid-positions base with his overlord. MVP went 2-barracks without any scouting. The one drawback of going pool first in close positions is that if the terran knows that's what the zerg is doing, he may be able to exploit it by just being more passive and more economy-focused early on.
In summary: a pool-first on close positions in Metalopolis is superior to hatch-first. It's much stronger defensively, and stronger or even economically if the opponent decides to pressure early (around the 3:45 mark or earlier).
The following paragraph is pure speculation. So if it's total bullshit, feel free to call me out on it. I think a reasonable transition out of the pool-first would be keep some presence outside of terran's ramp with either lings bling or ling roach and try to delay terran from getting his expo. The really short distance is favourable for slow blings or roaches to retreat against non-stimmed infantry. A spine crawler push might even be possible in the early-midgame. Something similar to Idras "migrating-giraffes" build on SoW yet with roaches instead of hydras. The timing would be to have roach-ling, 3 spinecrawlers finished and overlords in position right when lair completes. The zerg could even save energy on a third queen and bring that along to transfuse.That's something I want to try now, after just thinking it up.
Idra went hatch first on Steppes of War. If he had used the same strategy on Metal I bet he would have been able to pull through since the rush distances are about the same.
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On December 02 2010 06:02 adeezy wrote:
People are saying it's impossible. But didn't Nestea win against foxer in close metal? And we know foxer is basically the aggression king
While Boxer vs Nestea was a good series, Boxer screwed up his micro there in game 7. If the 4 lings + drones hadn't gotten the surround, Boxer wins that series. MVP nearly made the same mistake against Idra in that 3rd game, but managed to pull back far enough that he got off several more drone kills. That pretty much assured his next push would win the game.
I managed to catch both Jinro's & Idra's matches last night. I was concerned for Jinro until they they cut to his face. He was in "I'm going to own you" mode from the start. It's normally something you only see in Baseball, so it was nice to see it in a GSL match. (You normally see the face when a batter is going to rocket one out of the park; for a soccer reference, it's when you know a goalie will block a PK)
It was really cool to see Jinro play the slow-push Terran Mech style, but I'm curious if he went that way specifically because Moon's late game is fairly weak? I don't think Moon ever got a Hive in a 30+ minute Xel`Naga game. He also really, REALLY committed to Mutalisk. Kept him in the game a lot longer than he probably should have been in it, but I just can't help thinking a tech switch might have at least changed the direction of the game a lot.
Looking Idra vs MVP set 1 again, MVP did the same opening all 3 games. It's a really solid build when matched with solid micro. If I'm piecing it together right, it gives you early map control, let's you pressure but backoff & be even if you do no damage. Then, it let's you force the Zerg into a 3rd. (Though, I don't know if that build would work against Kyrix)
+ Show Spoiler +In game 1, MVP just backed off before he got to Idra's base, then assumed map control. MVP's win came on two strategic plays in that game 1. First was stopping the creep spread with his first push. That really, really slowed the creep spread, and definitely slowed down Idra's movement for when he needed it on that first engage at the 3rd. Second was that siege tank placement. He was able to build off that high-ground control and kept Idra on the low ground. Now, in hindsight, Idra needed to flank him from the backside on that tank. That'd probably have won him the game, as he could have two-sided MVP's units, then the Mutas would have cleaned up in the process. But that's easy to say sitting here looking at it after the fact.
In game 2, I'm curious why people were really concerned for Idra against blue flame helions. Pretty sure that's the 3rd time we've seen him take out more helions than he lost for zerglings in the GSL. Idra > Helions. And, in a reverse from game 2, Idra used a good flank/attack when MVP was trying to setup for his main push.
Game 3 was pretty much a build order win for MVP. That same 2 rax + expand pressure build on close Metapolis was going to win. Actually, going into the game, I was thinking, after the 2 really good previous games, "this is could be an epic game since it's... crap, close positions... 2 rax... well, cya in GSL 4 Idra". If Idra had blindly repeated his Steppes build order, I think he's at least stable until that 2nd push shows up, but he'd still probably have lost, but never know. If he came out of the first push without any drone losses, it'd have at least been interesting.
MVP seems like he could go pretty far, but I got a real Rainbow vibe there. He's definitely got a good Zerg build, but he's going to need more than that to win GSL. But you never know.
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
On December 02 2010 06:21 summerloud wrote:if anyone is interested - i updated my GSL 3 statistics excel file, also has short description of all the games and brackets interesting stats: -zergs are eliminated at an alarming rate, prolly also due to the no-map-veto system? -matches involving protoss are very short in general -matches on steppes and blistering are much shorter on average than on any other maps -xnc is now actually the map with the longest matches ofc, all to be taken with a grain of salt due to the small amount of matches
this stats are very nice thanks a lott
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On December 02 2010 06:21 Mainland wrote:
The following paragraph is pure speculation. So if it's total bullshit, feel free to call me out on it. I think a reasonable transition out of the pool-first would be keep some presence outside of terran's ramp with either lings bling or ling roach and try to delay terran from getting his expo. The really short distance is favourable for slow blings or roaches to retreat against non-stimmed infantry. A spine crawler push might even be possible in the early-midgame. Something similar to Idras "migrating-giraffes" build on SoW yet with roaches instead of hydras. The timing would be to have roach-ling, 3 spinecrawlers finished and overlords in position right when lair completes. The zerg could even save energy on a third queen and bring that along to transfuse.That's something I want to try now, after just thinking it up.
Builds like this don't solve the problem in any way, shape, or form.
The issue comes from simple numbers.
Due to being limited by larva and losing drones every time you build a structure, combined with the MULE being available 30 seconds after the first rax is complete, 1 base Zerg is so far behind 1 base Terran that you are basically "going all-in" just to make it to mid-game because you've crippled your econ so badly.
Not expanding in a <20 supply range makes no sense economically. This isn't done to get ahead and isn't greedy. In fact, the exact opposite is true. Staying on one base is destroying your own economy for basically no reason. You would still have to put a 18 hatch down, but you wouldn't have more mineral patches to slow your saturation and would be falling even farther behind your terran opponent than if you just went for the FE. Zerg gains no benefit from defending a choke point, especially with lings vs marines, and now you're blowing 450 minerals on spine crawlers. Your build will keep you alive for 10 minutes, but a terran who sees it, backs up, and expands will utterly destroy you at any point of his choosing after that due to the massive difference in incomes.
14 hatch is basically a necessity vs Terran due to how powerful their early-game economy is, and that's ironic due to the fact that they are the most well-equiped to stop it as well.
Its a shitty situation and can only be addressed by Blizzard.
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On December 02 2010 06:21 summerloud wrote:if anyone is interested - i updated my GSL 3 statistics excel file, also has short description of all the games and brackets interesting stats: -zergs are eliminated at an alarming rate, prolly also due to the no-map-veto system? -matches involving protoss are very short in general -matches on steppes and blistering are much shorter on average than on any other maps -xnc is now actually the map with the longest matches ofc, all to be taken with a grain of salt due to the small amount of matches
Pretty awesome, though as you said, it is a small samlple size so needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
Interesting to see how bad Z is doing in TvZ on Jungle Basin. That map is pretty brutal for zerg
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On December 02 2010 07:45 Taf the Ghost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 06:02 adeezy wrote:
People are saying it's impossible. But didn't Nestea win against foxer in close metal? And we know foxer is basically the aggression king While Boxer vs Nestea was a good series, Boxer screwed up his micro there in game 7. If the 4 lings + drones hadn't gotten the surround, Boxer wins that series. MVP nearly made the same mistake against Idra in that 3rd game, but managed to pull back far enough that he got off several more drone kills. That pretty much assured his next push would win the game.
While you can say Boxer was the one who screwed his micro. I took a trip to the Finals Recap and saw this:
From Lovedrop
A familiar sight as BoxeR ramps up two early barracks aiming to take down NesTea's expansion. Pulling half his SCVs, BoxeR is met at the natural with all but 3 of NesTea's drones ready to defend, NesTea this time smartly pulls back to buy time for his zerglings. The zerglings attack the front pack of SCVs while the drones successfully surrounds the marines in the back. The zerglings mow through the SCVs and drones disable BoxeR's ability to micro.
It was more of Nestea performing above BoxeR than just saying Boxer screwed up this and that. I would rephrase your quote to say "If Nestea didn't prevent that early agression by getting that surround, Nestea would've lost". It sounds like it's saying the same thing. But basically we have seen throughout this GSL that 2 racks pressure is performable by any high level pro. The result largely depends on the zerg's calculated and timely response to defer the earlier ones and prevent the bigger ones from happening. The main thing I'm trying to say is: Close position is not impossible, and to say that Zerg only wins because of a mistake isn't fair to the Zerg player's key micro.
However let's say instead of going fast lair and droning so much.... Idra got a few more lings and a few more banelings already morphed. It would've been a different story. Not saying IdrA wouldve won, but we wouldn't have seen the super fast GG that we did.
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On December 02 2010 04:34 latan wrote:
BS, greedy zerg is greedy.
also i've seen plenty of ZvT wins on meta close position with equally skilled players, please abandon that myth.
People really have to pay more attention to the luck factor. FruitDealer was very greedy in two of his games (well three, and in the first one he was punished for it) this day but he got away with it. There were timings were he would've been as helpless as Idra was on Meta.
Yes, you can call it game sense but there is never a way to know that a Terran will or will not push.
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EPT
