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On November 14 2010 06:48 fishinguy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 06:29 endlives wrote:
I mean look at this series..it went 7 rounds and we didnt see one late -dynamic -huge decision making- apm game . You know the type of games that makes people see SC as a game of insane skill and draws in spectators to it as an e-sport. The type of games that monsters like Nada bust out and just make your jaw drop.
Good Riddance to bad rubbish. Yeah that rubbish managed to get to second place in the worlds biggest sc2 tournement managing to knock out the 2 best players from last season while taking games off all races and. just LOL at the hate. The guy is 17 and he will be around for a long time so maybe you needed to calm down a little.
I certainly don't/can't doubt that the kid can get results, but his games are definitely not what I look for when I want to watch an in-depth SC2 match. Only 2 out of the 7 games did the Zerg even get to lair tech, and not once to hive(and it certainly wasn't his fault). Maybe some people really like to watch that fast paced action over a 8 minute game, but it definitely is not my cup of tea. I'd take a 30 minute macro game over that any day of the week.
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On November 14 2010 08:25 Creationism wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 08:22 drhojo wrote:
Translator John owns:
"First of all I'd like to say I have a great respect for NesTea not just because he won the tournament but because this guy had the courage to do what he wanted to do and proved he was right.I'm saying this because too many people even in Korea consider playing games is a waste of time.I, myself, was unemployed for 2 years *laughs*, bout a year and a half before I joined GOM.All I did was play games at home and my friends would say that I'm wasting my life.Well...uhm..who's laughing now ?. I asked them " Can you honestly say that you like your job " and I asked them " Do you have a fan who draws a fanart just for you ? ". That shuts them up.
So everytime you feel ashamed of being a nerd and your friends, teachers, neighbours and even parents think gaming is a waste of time you'll remember there's no such thing as wasting life as long as you have the courage to do what you like and be passionate about it.You'll remember , if NesTea listened to all those critics he wouldn't be standing there with a trophy and you'll remember that even if you feel nobody around you supports you that I, Jay, Artosis and Tasteless, everyone in GOM will support you.Why ? Because we believe in esports." Encouraging nerds to pursue their dream in progaming is like encouraging black kids to play basketball, ultimately not the way to go. It's nice to see people like bongboy here do it, but be realistic.
I think you missed the point 
there's no such thing as wasting life as long as you have the courage to do what you like and be passionate about it.
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On November 14 2010 06:29 endlives wrote:
so glad foxer lost. I really don't get all the hype around this kid. IMHO his play isn't even great and really gives credit to the argument made by sc1 elitists that sc2 is just hyper aggro donk silly and easy.
It would of been terrible for sc2 if a kid with nothing past the 10 minute mark going for him (except for in games where he already did mega damage with his early cheese) won it all. At least for people with insight into what the game COULD be rather than this all-in 1 base garbage.
Good Riddance to bad rubbish.
Agreed. They should really play 20 minute no rush. Zergbong should be able to FE without fear of an attack, even if it's scouted. Foxer punishing this risky move means he is garbage.
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Russian Federation798 Posts
On November 14 2010 08:36 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 06:48 fishinguy wrote:On November 14 2010 06:29 endlives wrote:
I mean look at this series..it went 7 rounds and we didnt see one late -dynamic -huge decision making- apm game . You know the type of games that makes people see SC as a game of insane skill and draws in spectators to it as an e-sport. The type of games that monsters like Nada bust out and just make your jaw drop.
Good Riddance to bad rubbish. Yeah that rubbish managed to get to second place in the worlds biggest sc2 tournement managing to knock out the 2 best players from last season while taking games off all races and. just LOL at the hate. The guy is 17 and he will be around for a long time so maybe you needed to calm down a little. I certainly don't/can't doubt that the kid can get results, but his games are definitely not what I look for when I want to watch an in-depth SC2 match. Only 2 out of the 7 games did the Zerg even get to lair tech, and not once to hive(and it certainly wasn't his fault). Maybe some people really like to watch that fast paced action over a 8 minute game, but it definitely is not my cup of tea. I'd take a 30 minute macro game over that any day of the week.
And terran getting rolled after that - is that what you want to see? Macro game = zergs game and if you dont kill/cripple him before the 10 mins mark thats what happens. There is a reason why all the terran players in GSL try to finish it early.
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On November 14 2010 08:36 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 06:48 fishinguy wrote:On November 14 2010 06:29 endlives wrote:
I mean look at this series..it went 7 rounds and we didnt see one late -dynamic -huge decision making- apm game . You know the type of games that makes people see SC as a game of insane skill and draws in spectators to it as an e-sport. The type of games that monsters like Nada bust out and just make your jaw drop.
Good Riddance to bad rubbish. Yeah that rubbish managed to get to second place in the worlds biggest sc2 tournement managing to knock out the 2 best players from last season while taking games off all races and. just LOL at the hate. The guy is 17 and he will be around for a long time so maybe you needed to calm down a little. I certainly don't/can't doubt that the kid can get results, but his games are definitely not what I look for when I want to watch an in-depth SC2 match. Only 2 out of the 7 games did the Zerg even get to lair tech, and not once to hive(and it certainly wasn't his fault). Maybe some people really like to watch that fast paced action over a 8 minute game, but it definitely is not my cup of tea. I'd take a 30 minute macro game over that any day of the week.
You can't play a macro game against a zerg player.... That's not even an option.
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Great job nestea. This will go down as one of the greatest starcraft series of all time.
Destroying through the entire scene never losing, then going down 0-2 in a frustrating way in the most important series of his life must have been a blow to his confidence. But to come back to beat Boxer at his own game and his play style is truly inspiring.
Congrats and good luck in GSL 3.
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On November 14 2010 08:15 iEchoic wrote:
In retrospect, the games were pretty boring. There's one overarching theme in TvZ which is "terran must quickly kill the zerg or cripple him repeatedly or lose". As a result, we see very short games in which the Terran has to allin repeatedly and the zerg just sits there and defends.
Hopefully this helps people understand why Foxer tried to be hyper-aggressive in the 7th game and not just get another macro loss.
This is a feature of BoxeR's games, not the ZvT match-up in general. Obviously zerg should not be allowed to straight out macro without pressure, but it doesn't follow that terran is at a disadvantage in any game with >1 base. BoxeR was just playing to his strengths (incredible marine micro), and avoiding his relative weaknesses (macro, decision making). Frankly, it's not a style I enjoy, but whatever works for him.
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On November 14 2010 08:53 whatthefat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 08:15 iEchoic wrote:
In retrospect, the games were pretty boring. There's one overarching theme in TvZ which is "terran must quickly kill the zerg or cripple him repeatedly or lose". As a result, we see very short games in which the Terran has to allin repeatedly and the zerg just sits there and defends.
Hopefully this helps people understand why Foxer tried to be hyper-aggressive in the 7th game and not just get another macro loss.
This is a feature of BoxeR's games, not the ZvT match-up in general. Obviously zerg should not be allowed to straight out macro without pressure, but it doesn't follow that terran is at a disadvantage in any game with >1 base. BoxeR was just playing to his strengths (incredible marine micro), and avoiding his relative weaknesses (macro, decision making). Frankly, it's not a style I enjoy, but whatever works for him.
I don't think Foxer's macro is a weakness. He has very good macro. Watch him out-macro hopetorture or check out his macro on lost temple vs nestea (albeit after an aggressive opening).
And frankly, macroing in this game isn't hard. All you have to do is make scvs nonstop and spend all your money and there's not much more you can do. I have no doubt he can macro just as well as any other Terran.
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On November 14 2010 08:56 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 08:53 whatthefat wrote:On November 14 2010 08:15 iEchoic wrote:
In retrospect, the games were pretty boring. There's one overarching theme in TvZ which is "terran must quickly kill the zerg or cripple him repeatedly or lose". As a result, we see very short games in which the Terran has to allin repeatedly and the zerg just sits there and defends.
Hopefully this helps people understand why Foxer tried to be hyper-aggressive in the 7th game and not just get another macro loss.
This is a feature of BoxeR's games, not the ZvT match-up in general. Obviously zerg should not be allowed to straight out macro without pressure, but it doesn't follow that terran is at a disadvantage in any game with >1 base. BoxeR was just playing to his strengths (incredible marine micro), and avoiding his relative weaknesses (macro, decision making). Frankly, it's not a style I enjoy, but whatever works for him. I don't think Foxer's macro is a weakness. He has very good macro. Watch him out-macro hopetorture or check out his macro on lost temple vs nestea (albeit after an aggressive opening). And frankly, macroing in this game isn't hard. All you have to do is make scvs nonstop and spend all your money and there's not much more you can do. I have no doubt he can macro just as well as any other Terran.
Note I said relative weaknesses. Of course anyone who makes the GSL final is an incredible macro player, but in that respect he doesn't look so great alongside players like NaDa and NesTea.
I don't know what you mean by "macroing isn't hard, all you do is ...". I could just as well say "microing isn't hard, all you do is select some units and pretend you're playing Diablo". Even top tier pros get sloppy with macro under pressure.
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Those were really some awesome games, but as a Protoss player I always enjoy seeing the Terran get slapped down. 
Congrats to Foxer and Nestea. Enjoy the money!
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Russian Federation798 Posts
On November 14 2010 09:05 whatthefat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 08:56 iEchoic wrote:On November 14 2010 08:53 whatthefat wrote:On November 14 2010 08:15 iEchoic wrote:
In retrospect, the games were pretty boring. There's one overarching theme in TvZ which is "terran must quickly kill the zerg or cripple him repeatedly or lose". As a result, we see very short games in which the Terran has to allin repeatedly and the zerg just sits there and defends.
Hopefully this helps people understand why Foxer tried to be hyper-aggressive in the 7th game and not just get another macro loss.
This is a feature of BoxeR's games, not the ZvT match-up in general. Obviously zerg should not be allowed to straight out macro without pressure, but it doesn't follow that terran is at a disadvantage in any game with >1 base. BoxeR was just playing to his strengths (incredible marine micro), and avoiding his relative weaknesses (macro, decision making). Frankly, it's not a style I enjoy, but whatever works for him. I don't think Foxer's macro is a weakness. He has very good macro. Watch him out-macro hopetorture or check out his macro on lost temple vs nestea (albeit after an aggressive opening). And frankly, macroing in this game isn't hard. All you have to do is make scvs nonstop and spend all your money and there's not much more you can do. I have no doubt he can macro just as well as any other Terran. Note I said relative weaknesses. Of course anyone who makes the GSL final is an incredible macro player, but in that respect he doesn't look so great alongside players like NaDa and NesTea. I don't know what you mean by "macroing isn't hard, all you do is ...". I could just as well say "microing isn't hard, all you do is select some units and pretend you're playing Diablo". Even top tier pros get sloppy with macro under pressure.
Foxer can macro as good as Nestea or any other player but he cant macro vs zerg.
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People should calm down a bit. Neither of these two players deserves any hate since they both performed very well in the biggest sc2 tournament.
One might not love all these early rushes but in the end BoxeR took 3 games of a guy who has not even dropped a single game in the previous rounds. He was doing something right there (and could have even won game 7).
Imo, blame the game not the players since they just play the most effective way... who would play long macro games just for the sake of long macro games, if there are easier and way more promising ways to win?
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Pretty lame series, nothing remotely late game and really shows SC2 has a long way to go. I miss the expansive multi-pronged play of BW  Almost all of the games came down to cheese/map abuse/baneling busts. Tastosis did their best to hype the games but for a full bo7 it was so mediocre.
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On November 14 2010 08:47 stratman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 06:29 endlives wrote:
so glad foxer lost. I really don't get all the hype around this kid. IMHO his play isn't even great and really gives credit to the argument made by sc1 elitists that sc2 is just hyper aggro donk silly and easy.
It would of been terrible for sc2 if a kid with nothing past the 10 minute mark going for him (except for in games where he already did mega damage with his early cheese) won it all. At least for people with insight into what the game COULD be rather than this all-in 1 base garbage.
Good Riddance to bad rubbish. Agreed. They should really play 20 minute no rush. Zergbong should be able to FE without fear of an attack, even if it's scouted. Foxer punishing this risky move means he is garbage.
its not 20 minute no rush, in BW theres always action going on, but the games drag into late game...because they think going "all in" puts them at a disadvantage, but nowadays in SC2, esp in TvZ where zerg late game macro is just so strong and with strong solid mid game aswell its natural for foxer to do these kind of pushes, after all ~90K usd > putting out nice long games for the fans where he will slowly lose his advantage and lose
i was staying up at 6am watching this, although the first game was really exciting, foxer using mules to gain huge advantage but every game was ~10 minutes... i was actually looking for foxer's solution to zerg late game but there was none, so i decided to sleep after the 3rd game
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Someone should do a break down on the zerg match, showing there win percentage against each race and the time period of the game. I think you'll find zerg win rate significantly increases after 15mins. with one week of practice and probably playing against checkprime you have to give foxer the benefit of the doubt that a super aggressive play works the best against nestea. Cause He has not done any allin in any of he's matches prior to the finals.
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Watched the whole gsl 1 + 2...i gotta say..this final was terrible to watch. Dont get me wrong players are good but ~8-9-10 mins games are just ... Almost every match the same... Foxer rushes (super aggresive play ) him with rines 1-2 scvs bunker.. If he pulls it he wins if not he looses..
Lame. All the MLG matches were 10 times better ...
Also saying "this is so high level play" every 2 mins didnt make it better.. just sounded silly while watching that "super aggresive rush zerg" fest
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Nice games. Lots of wtf moments. Enjoyed them :-)
It's rare enough to see super-agressive play and was a good show that it is in fact defendable on a 14 hatch. Hmmmm....
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Sensible idea by FoxeR being honest, most of the games were a lot shorter than I was hoping but still very interesting and a clever way to pick up a quick win in the opening game. All in all I thought the series was a good display, would've liked to see more late game play but you can't have it all.
Congratulations to both players, clearly deserved to be there.
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On November 14 2010 08:36 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 06:48 fishinguy wrote:On November 14 2010 06:29 endlives wrote:
I mean look at this series..it went 7 rounds and we didnt see one late -dynamic -huge decision making- apm game . You know the type of games that makes people see SC as a game of insane skill and draws in spectators to it as an e-sport. The type of games that monsters like Nada bust out and just make your jaw drop.
Good Riddance to bad rubbish. Yeah that rubbish managed to get to second place in the worlds biggest sc2 tournement managing to knock out the 2 best players from last season while taking games off all races and. just LOL at the hate. The guy is 17 and he will be around for a long time so maybe you needed to calm down a little. I certainly don't/can't doubt that the kid can get results, but his games are definitely not what I look for when I want to watch an in-depth SC2 match. Only 2 out of the 7 games did the Zerg even get to lair tech, and not once to hive(and it certainly wasn't his fault). Maybe some people really like to watch that fast paced action over a 8 minute game, but it definitely is not my cup of tea. I'd take a 30 minute macro game over that any day of the week.
To be honest it has nothing to do with the players that games aren't lasting very long, and has everything to do with the map pool and the way SC2 works in general at the moment. The maps favor 2 base super aggressive play, because it's so hard to defend any other expansions (it's really hard to defend your natural on most maps too, but you kind of have to take it anyway). The game favors it too, because it's next to impossible to defend with a lesser force. There almost are no units that can double as defensive units, there's no high ground advantage, it takes a LOT of units to block a ramp (in BW it takes 1) and chokes, and as soon as you fall behind in unit count you automatically lose the game because you can't keep up in army and have no other option to defend, because in SC2, army count is everything. It's really sad that SC2 games will never develop into long tier 3 macro games on the highest level at this rate. A lot of things need to change for that to become the norm rather than a rare occasion.
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The map pool is crippling this game. If anything has been learned today its that blizzard is terrible at making maps
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EPT
