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On August 26 2010 13:19 ThunderGod wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 11:31 opticalza wrote:On August 25 2010 20:05 Disarray0525 wrote:
hey, quick question... if you're sorting the brackets to put players of similar skill together (based on that player rank list), won't that automatically eliminate half of the good players? if you were looking for one top player it wouldn't matter, but for building a team wouldn't you want the brackets to avoid putting the highly skilled players in positions to knock each other out?
maybe im reading it wrong... lol The way it works is the guy on the top of the list plays the person on the bottom of the list, and so on. ie the top seed plays the lowest seed. Second highest players the second lowest. That way top players don't face each other until the finals. The list is generated automatically based on your ladder rating and league. Diamond > plat > gold > silver > bronze. Here is a link to an example bracket: http://challonge.com/images/brackets/TestRunNZ.png- As you can see in this example you are the 31st seed - who will play the 34th, and if you win will move on to play the second seed etc. I am sure you can work it out. Also, for reflex (going out tonight so won't be able to send it again): http://pastebin.com/ZFRFsidH I hope you know that rating points has very little to do with skill. A player in Corruptor Tango with 400 rating points is of similar skill to a player in say Carrier Kilo (or any of the newer Diamond divisions) with 1200 points. The fact the tournament is double elimination means you don't need to seed players. Or alternatively you could seed players in Blizzard's official top200 list and seed noone else. Or I guess you could do what you are doing at the moment, it's just not very scientific is all  Edit: Also with that system one could hypothetically control their rating so as to get an easier bracket.
I dont think thats correct at all. Atleast the division has nothing to do with skill. The reason so many good players are in the same division is because they all spammed games at the start so got into the first diamond division.
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On August 26 2010 13:19 ThunderGod wrote:I hope you know that rating points has very little to do with skill. A player in Corruptor Tango with 400 rating points is of similar skill to a player in say Carrier Kilo (or any of the newer Diamond divisions) with 1200 points. The fact the tournament is double elimination means you don't need to seed players. Or alternatively you could seed players in Blizzard's official top200 list and seed noone else. Or I guess you could do what you are doing at the moment, it's just not very scientific is all Edit: Also with that system one could hypothetically control their rating so as to get an easier bracket.
Hi. Yes im aware points do not equal skill. However there is undoubtedly a correlation between the two, and that's the reason i chose to use it. I'm not sure what you mean by it's not very scientific, this was meant to help even out the spread of players, based on their ladder data. There really isn't anything else empirical that will cover all participants that has some meaning. The top 200 list is undoubtedly more accurate, as it is most likely not tainted by the bonus pool inflation, but that is purely speculation, and more importantly, it doesn't have data for the majority of players in the tournament. As for points being different on a division basis - i don't think that is true based off what i have read here on TL about the ladder system, as well as what the sc2ranks developer has stated about it. It also seems logical that the way blizzard has done divisions is that are simply wrappers for the league, to try give people a sense of accomplishment when they move up a rank. What is true is that moving up "ranks" in a division like Corruptor Tango is harder then in Carrier Kilo  .
Finally though, i did not intend to intrude on anything. It is your clan, your tournament, and ultimately your decision. I was trying to help Reflex out to make things go smoother and help the NZ scene a little in my own way (programming). My apologies if I've come across as trying to run the show or say that this is how things will be done, or any thing to that extent.
Cheers :D
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Dont feel like your intruding!
On August 26 2010 15:17 opticalza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 13:19 ThunderGod wrote:I hope you know that rating points has very little to do with skill. A player in Corruptor Tango with 400 rating points is of similar skill to a player in say Carrier Kilo (or any of the newer Diamond divisions) with 1200 points. The fact the tournament is double elimination means you don't need to seed players. Or alternatively you could seed players in Blizzard's official top200 list and seed noone else. Or I guess you could do what you are doing at the moment, it's just not very scientific is all Edit: Also with that system one could hypothetically control their rating so as to get an easier bracket. Hi. Yes im aware points do not equal skill. However there is undoubtedly a correlation between the two, and that's the reason i chose to use it. I'm not sure what you mean by it's not very scientific, this was meant to help even out the spread of players, based on their ladder data. There really isn't anything else empirical that will cover all participants that has some meaning. The top 200 list is undoubtedly more accurate, as it is most likely not tainted by the bonus pool inflation, but that is purely speculation, and more importantly, it doesn't have data for the majority of players in the tournament. As for points being different on a division basis - i don't think that is true based off what i have read here on TL about the ladder system, as well as what the sc2ranks developer has stated about it. It also seems logical that the way blizzard has done divisions is that are simply wrappers for the league, to try give people a sense of accomplishment when they move up a rank. What is true is that moving up "ranks" in a division like Corruptor Tango is harder then in Carrier Kilo . Finally though, i did not intend to intrude on anything. It is your clan, your tournament, and ultimately your decision. I was trying to help Reflex out to make things go smoother and help the NZ scene a little in my own way (programming). My apologies if I've come across as trying to run the show or say that this is how things will be done, or any thing to that extent. Cheers :D
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On August 26 2010 14:31 WAAA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 13:19 ThunderGod wrote:On August 26 2010 11:31 opticalza wrote:On August 25 2010 20:05 Disarray0525 wrote:
hey, quick question... if you're sorting the brackets to put players of similar skill together (based on that player rank list), won't that automatically eliminate half of the good players? if you were looking for one top player it wouldn't matter, but for building a team wouldn't you want the brackets to avoid putting the highly skilled players in positions to knock each other out?
maybe im reading it wrong... lol The way it works is the guy on the top of the list plays the person on the bottom of the list, and so on. ie the top seed plays the lowest seed. Second highest players the second lowest. That way top players don't face each other until the finals. The list is generated automatically based on your ladder rating and league. Diamond > plat > gold > silver > bronze. Here is a link to an example bracket: http://challonge.com/images/brackets/TestRunNZ.png- As you can see in this example you are the 31st seed - who will play the 34th, and if you win will move on to play the second seed etc. I am sure you can work it out. Also, for reflex (going out tonight so won't be able to send it again): http://pastebin.com/ZFRFsidH I hope you know that rating points has very little to do with skill. A player in Corruptor Tango with 400 rating points is of similar skill to a player in say Carrier Kilo (or any of the newer Diamond divisions) with 1200 points. The fact the tournament is double elimination means you don't need to seed players. Or alternatively you could seed players in Blizzard's official top200 list and seed noone else. Or I guess you could do what you are doing at the moment, it's just not very scientific is all Edit: Also with that system one could hypothetically control their rating so as to get an easier bracket. I dont think thats correct at all. Atleast the division has nothing to do with skill. The reason so many good players are in the same division is because they all spammed games at the start so got into the first diamond division.
the top 30 in corrupter tango are all "slightly favored" or "favored" over me and give a lot of points when i beat them, i know this because i've played almost all of them. Yet only about the top 10 have higher ratings.
Division placement does not have much to do with when it started as well methinks (though obviously ones that start now are going to be easier) because my division started before or at the same time as corrupter tango and filled up at the same rate.
There is a division called zealot epsilon that has been growing much stronger recently, many good players are being filtered into it, yet the division started many days after the release date as far as i can tell.
Some divisions simply get good players filtered into it and i have no idea why.
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Hey guys.
Looking forward to casting this on Saturday. Should be some good games.
See you all there!
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Lol after training for this tourny It doesn't look like I can make it after all. Worst timing ever. :p
Please remove my entry. Thanks!
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On August 26 2010 15:17 opticalza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 13:19 ThunderGod wrote:I hope you know that rating points has very little to do with skill. A player in Corruptor Tango with 400 rating points is of similar skill to a player in say Carrier Kilo (or any of the newer Diamond divisions) with 1200 points. The fact the tournament is double elimination means you don't need to seed players. Or alternatively you could seed players in Blizzard's official top200 list and seed noone else. Or I guess you could do what you are doing at the moment, it's just not very scientific is all Edit: Also with that system one could hypothetically control their rating so as to get an easier bracket. Hi. Yes im aware points do not equal skill. However there is undoubtedly a correlation between the two, and that's the reason i chose to use it. I'm not sure what you mean by it's not very scientific, this was meant to help even out the spread of players, based on their ladder data. There really isn't anything else empirical that will cover all participants that has some meaning. The top 200 list is undoubtedly more accurate, as it is most likely not tainted by the bonus pool inflation, but that is purely speculation, and more importantly, it doesn't have data for the majority of players in the tournament. As for points being different on a division basis - i don't think that is true based off what i have read here on TL about the ladder system, as well as what the sc2ranks developer has stated about it. It also seems logical that the way blizzard has done divisions is that are simply wrappers for the league, to try give people a sense of accomplishment when they move up a rank. What is true is that moving up "ranks" in a division like Corruptor Tango is harder then in Carrier Kilo . Finally though, i did not intend to intrude on anything. It is your clan, your tournament, and ultimately your decision. I was trying to help Reflex out to make things go smoother and help the NZ scene a little in my own way (programming). My apologies if I've come across as trying to run the show or say that this is how things will be done, or any thing to that extent. Cheers :D
Hey no problem optical I am really glad you are helping out the NZ scene. And you're right that there is no good way to seed all players.
I'm not aiming this at you or anybody particular. I just see a lot of people working under the wrong impressions, and this is Blizzard's fault for not making things clear (plus keeping their MMR formula secret). So this post will simply and briefly attempt to explain the implications of MMR and display rating being different (with examples! :D)
To start off I think some people are getting the hidden rating (MMR) mixed up with the displayed rating. They are not the same. MMR is a separate rating used for matchmaking. Players of the same MMR will (theoretically at least) have the same skill. However although display points is a decent indicator of skill there is zero correlation between skill and the displayed rating points. (See point 2)
Firstly there is the bonus pool system which skews displayed ratings; even if everyone uses all their bonus points players who join the division later will be disadvantaged since they start on a lower rating (there is a significant drop in points when a player is promoted from Platinum to Diamond).
Secondly we look at what Blizzard intended the display rating for. Why have two different ratings anyway?? Well its beacuse Blizzard wants us all in separate divisions of 100 players so we can feel like we are improving and have goals to work towards. (Sounds better than rank 1236 or something). But not all divisions are equal in skill (refer point 3 ).
Lets say Division A has the 10 best players in the world all on 1000 points, 50 average players all on 500 points, and 40 equally bad players on 10 points. The points differentiate their skill correctly. Division B has 10 average players on 1000 points and of equal skill to the 50 in Division A who are on 500. B also has a bunch of 89 scrubs on 500 points who are worse than 99 of the players in Division A, and B has the worst player in diamond, who is on 1 point. Here the points also differentiate their skill correctly.
This is a simplistic example but you can see that an average player in Div B has 500 more points than an equally average player in Div A. So the display rating is a way to compare the relative strengths of players in a particular division. Hypothetically we could have a division with 99 awful players on 1 point and a top player in the world on 9001 points.
This link explains how the MMR and display rating of players interacts when finding matches and calling you 'favoured' et al (among other things): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142211 part 1 is easier to understand: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=118212
Thirdly, (and this is the piece of concrete evidence Blizzard has given us) we can see players on the top200 list, a list comprised of the top 200 by MMR.
If we look at the list from 16 Aug, 78 of the top 200 players are in Corruptor Tango. Now this can not be explained by people just spamming games because at this time (ie a week ago) according to sc2ranks Turaxis Tau had both more average games played and a higher average points total, yet only 15 people in the top 200. Lets look at a real example from the current list.
We have 3 players Bull, Kinetic and Fenneth. According to sc2ranks
Bull is a player from Kerrigan Pi with 1181 rating ponts and a win ratio of 56.39%.
Kinetic is a player from Corruptor Tango with 929 rating points and a win ratio of 57.78%.
Fenneth is a player from Turaxis Tau with 1292 rating points and a win ratio of 59.10%.
According to sc2ranks their rankings on display points are Bull=6th, Kinetic=58th, Fenneth=4th.
According to Blizz their rankings on hidden rating points are Bull=81, Kinetic=34th, Fenneth=23rd.
Note they all have similar win ratios and all three of these division were among the first.
Bull has much lower MMR than Kinetic and yet 250 more points.
Fenneth has 350 more points than Kinetic and a better win ratio but only a slightly higher MMR.
Fenneth has only 100 more points than Bull but a much higher MMR.
Clearly the two different points systems are not the same. Furthermore we can infer that the displayed rating points (as seen on sc2ranks) are not equivalent between divisions. In this example Corruptor Tango > Turaxis Tau > Kerrigan Pi. (In the top 200 the representation is 78>15>4).
Judging by the similar MMR of Fenneth and Kinetic one could approximate that at this point in time 930 rating points in Corruptor Tango is equivalent to perhaps 1100-1200 points in Turaxis Tau.
More evidence: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=146009
Hope this helps someone!
Cheers
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woah you waaaaay overreacted there thunder. Points is a decent indicator of skill, obviously points do differ from real ratings a little bit but its fine
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Yeah I'm not trying to say you can't compare people by points. I'm just trying to give evidence why its inaccurate lol and also persuade people that 500 CT points does not equal 500 Carrier Kilo points heh.
But tbh the inaccuracy will probably get worse as the season goes on. For the weak divisions with a few strong players (e.g. Turaxis Tau) the points will get more overinflated relative to the other divisions. [Divisions which are competitive amongst the top players shouldn't get any worse tho].
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Flaunt
791
Terran
Just incase u forgot :D
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On August 26 2010 21:41 ThunderGod wrote:
Yeah I'm not trying to say you can't compare people by points. I'm just trying to give evidence why its inaccurate lol and also persuade people that 500 CT points does not equal 500 Carrier Kilo points heh.
But tbh the inaccuracy will probably get worse as the season goes on. For the weak divisions with a few strong players (e.g. Turaxis Tau) the points will get more overinflated relative to the other divisions. [Divisions which are competitive amongst the top players shouldn't get any worse tho].
Yeah, you're right about points being different too the MMR/Elo of the players. I cannot say i've done much research into the differences between two divisions, so i'll take your word for it. The difference between MMR/Points will certainly get worse though.
Anyhow, back onto the topic. 
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Crimson
638
Protoss
Good luck everyone!
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I know its a bit last minute but can I change my set race to zerg ^^
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Looking forward to this! Will catch the first few rounds at least.
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On August 28 2010 13:39 DejaVoo wrote:
I know its a bit last minute but can I change my set race to zerg ^^
Yup
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EPT
