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On May 08 2010 21:52 Nitro68 wrote:
He was not asked to leave. Day9 asked him 3 times if he was streaming and he said yes 3 times.
Strelok asked Day9 to leave in the 3rd place final and he didn't.
I just dont think it's fair to ask people to leave when they were not lagging in game 1.
They don't want to spend 15 minutes of investigations, they just want to finish their game...
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On May 08 2010 21:52 Nitro68 wrote:
He was not asked to leave. Day9 asked him 3 times if he was streaming and he said yes 3 times.
Strelok asked Day9 to leave in the 3rd place final and he didn't.
I just dont think it's fair to ask people to leave when they were not lagging in game 1.
Day9 is the official Razer Domination streamer the others are not. They are there simply due to the goodwill of the Razer Domination staff and their place comes after Day9 it's simple as that.
According to your logic when game one doesn't lag and no dropscreen appears in game two the game should just be continued playing in lag. That's not a solution at all it's an outrageous suggestion. When it's unclear who is lagging obses should leave one by one with the ones of least importance starting first until only the official stream is left.
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ANYWAYS... Awsome tournament with awsome players. The 1-4th place matches were absolutely the best finals I've seen in awhile, regardless of lag and drama.
Good Games guys!
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On May 09 2010 01:05 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2010 21:52 Nitro68 wrote:
He was not asked to leave. Day9 asked him 3 times if he was streaming and he said yes 3 times.
Strelok asked Day9 to leave in the 3rd place final and he didn't.
I just dont think it's fair to ask people to leave when they were not lagging in game 1.
Day9 is the official Razer Domination streamer the others are not. They are there simply due to the goodwill of the Razer Domination staff and their place comes after Day9 it's simple as that. According to your logic when game one doesn't lag and no dropscreen appears in game two the game should just be continued playing in lag. That's not a solution at all it's an outrageous suggestion. When it's unclear who is lagging obses should leave one by one with the ones of least importance starting first until only the official stream is left.
I don't want to be outrageous, and I agree players are the priority. Your solution seems fine, first kick the obs, then co-caster (or forbid co-caster) then casters one by one.
And I just think that after some month in beta we should know which streamers do not lag.
In game 1 the obs were :
- TheBest
- Jaydden
- GoodGameRU
- YoGo
- ZotacStream
- Abver
- Superxpm
- OgerAffe
And no lag.
In game 2 one new name :
- imba
He did not leave the game.
They were all "official streamers" according to http://razer.cups.gamesports.net/live
But I still agree Day[9] is the most important..
And btw it was an amazing tournament, amazing games (especially your games for 3rd place).
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I believe its not up to players to decide who should gtfo or not. It is the admin's responsibility to do so. Players should be able only to complain and its up to the admin to decide.
I didnt watch the stream so I cannot tell, but any competent admin would ask all the obs and other streamers out before Day9.
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they did, they still wouldn't leave
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On May 09 2010 02:28 Geval wrote:
I believe its not up to players to decide who should gtfo or not. It is the admin's responsibility to do so. Players should be able only to complain and its up to the admin to decide.
I didnt watch the stream so I cannot tell, but any competent admin would ask all the obs and other streamers out before Day9.
It would totally ruin the flow of the players if they had to wait 10-15min for the issue to be resolved by admins and would probably affect their following games. Anyway the rules are pretty clear on the matter, in the case of lag players are allowed to play without observers:
4.1 Coverage partners are allowed to observe all matches. In case of lags players are allowed to continue without further observers besides league officials.
There was terrible lag, so I see no reason why they couldn't tell observers to leave.
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ZOTACpwner should right a thread on ob etiquette; he's always leaving often before getting asked or game being paused, and on his exit tells all other specs to do the same if lag continues.
Thanks for the good example buddy!
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On May 09 2010 07:52 zTz wrote:
ZOTACpwner should right a thread on ob etiquette; he's always leaving often before getting asked or game being paused, and on his exit tells all other specs to do the same if lag continues.
Thanks for the good example buddy!
Thanks a lot  . I just have many experiencs as an admin and i just want the best performance for the players and the streamers. And my computer isnt the best so i leave before the game starts if there were any problems in the previous games. And I can still do my admin job so I dont really mind. Its a bit sad that i couldnt watch the finals because i did the whole Tourney almost alone but so i could enjoy the day9 stream. And there will be konsequenz for the streamers who didnt leave the game cause the Razer stuff is the same like the ZOTAC stuff  .
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It might be a good idea to just have one official streamer/broadcaster and have other sites stream from the official stream. That's pretty much what is done with most sports and even in the osl/msl. It is obviously not ideal for the unofficial streamers as they can't control the camera but it definitely respects the players first and foremost. If unofficial streamers are so anxious to control the camera they can simply stream the replay after the games have been played.
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marines are such an useless unit vs zerg ...
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just want to say the 3rd/4th place play off series was amazing, rly recommend watching it if u didn't catch it
amazing micro by both players! and game 4 was probably the best sc2 match i've seen so far, only a nuke would have made it better :p
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*snip* Why yes I just posted my fullname and student id here by accident, lets pretend it didn't happen :p *snip*
On May 08 2010 18:11 Nitro68 wrote:
The problem I see is (for instance) millenium streamed 90%+ games of Razer domination while Day[9] or GLHF streamed less games. And then, it's the final and all the "lesser" streams have to leave... (YoGo was the co-caster and leaved the game).
I agree the english stream is the universal one, but if you only want this one your global coverage will not be as good.
Streamers should leave if the dropbox appears with their name (like "superxpym") but why are you speacking of TheBest ? As far as I know, he was never on dropbox, was streaming and do not lag while streaming a ton of games...
I'm not part of Millenium, but I'm just happy I can watch lots of Zotac or Razer games when Day[9] or GLHF.tv are not streaming...
The real big problem I see in game 2 was that there was lag but no dropbox :/
First off, bullshit. If you think it's somehow ok to drag GLHF into this mess, let me tell you that I will go to hell and back before allowing it. GLHF streamed practically all the games, except for the finals.
Except for the finals? Why yes, because I told Day[9] the finals were coming up and he wanted to stream them. Wait, what's that? Someone not opting to stream a match because there's already a high quality stream available in that language? That is madness!
Feel free to confirm it with the admins, we were scheduled and confirmed to cast, but I let them know beforehand we would decline the offer because Day[9] was streaming. Or confirm with Sean that I actually told him about the finals in the first place. Previously, his rig didn't allow for what we considered acceptable quality, but with his new setup he's been solid so we decided we wouldn't be providing nearly as much added value to the community.
I have nothing but respect for millenium, their commentators and their organization, but I definitely don't respect your stance in this matter. I'll more than gladly compare viewer numbers and we'll see who's really been bringing in the numbers. So back off and leave us out of it. We have no intention to be your justification.
That said, having experience with covering many different games. It's a privilege to stream matches like this, not a right. The most important thing is the legitimacy of the competition and if there's considerable lag, that simply isn't acceptable. If you at any point popup lagging and the players ask you to leave, you leave. There is no if's nor but's, you LEAVE right then and there.
Beyond that, it should be a privilege for the players to have their matches covered. The players need to remember that they benefit greatly from exposure. Sure prize money is nice, but sponsors want players that get exposure and teams and tournaments pick up/invite players that get sponsors.
Streamers and players have (or should have) a mutually beneficial understanding. As soon as that is broken, as soon as streamers become more of a burden than added value to the community, something is going dreadfully wrong.
If there's lag, by all means players should make sure it's not on their end, for their own sake. But if it's not them, first the “non-essential” people should leave (I question they should be there to begin with) and after that streamers. It makes no sense to sour a competition because of streamers not taking their responsibility, they are no longer benefiting the community in any way, shape or form. No one wants to see a laggy match.
And when it comes to multiple streamers, you should be looking at the effect on the community. Yes there's a segment that doesn't understand certain languages, but the good of the many outweighs the good of the few, so obviously less universal streams should leave first. You're doing this as a service to the community, which is what streamers shouldn't forget. If you are asked to leave, leave. It is a joint decision between the players and the admins. If they want you out, go out.
Furthermore, I always make sure I'm in fullscreen mode and I absolutely refuse to alt-tab to minimize whatever effect I have in game. Stupidity like that is just unprofessional.
Lastly anyone that condones the behavior of the pieces of shit spamming the players should realize these people are nothing but a rotten influence on the community. They are self-centered egotistical brats who think their own viewing comfort is more important than the players, the competition and the tournament. I believe in a zero tolerance policy towards this kind of behavior.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 11 2010 00:38 Martijn wrote:*snip* Why yes I just posted my fullname and student id here by accident, lets pretend it didn't happen :p *snip* Show nested quote +On May 08 2010 18:11 Nitro68 wrote:
The problem I see is (for instance) millenium streamed 90%+ games of Razer domination while Day[9] or GLHF streamed less games. And then, it's the final and all the "lesser" streams have to leave... (YoGo was the co-caster and leaved the game).
I agree the english stream is the universal one, but if you only want this one your global coverage will not be as good.
Streamers should leave if the dropbox appears with their name (like "superxpym") but why are you speacking of TheBest ? As far as I know, he was never on dropbox, was streaming and do not lag while streaming a ton of games...
I'm not part of Millenium, but I'm just happy I can watch lots of Zotac or Razer games when Day[9] or GLHF.tv are not streaming...
The real big problem I see in game 2 was that there was lag but no dropbox :/ First off, bullshit. If you think it's somehow ok to drag GLHF into this mess, let me tell you that I will go to hell and back before allowing it. GLHF streamed practically all the games, except for the finals. Except for the finals? Why yes, because I told Day[9] the finals were coming up and he wanted to stream them. Wait, what's that? Someone not opting to stream a match because there's already a high quality stream available in that language? That is madness! Feel free to confirm it with the admins, we were scheduled and confirmed to cast, but I let them know beforehand we would decline the offer because Day[9] was streaming. Or confirm with Sean that I actually told him about the finals in the first place. Previously, his rig didn't allow for what we considered acceptable quality, but with his new setup he's been solid so we decided we wouldn't be providing nearly as much added value to the community. I have nothing but respect for millenium, their commentators and their organization, but I definitely don't respect your stance in this matter. I'll more than gladly compare viewer numbers and we'll see who's really been bringing in the numbers. So back off and leave us out of it. We have no intention to be your justification. That said, having experience with covering many different games. It's a privilege to stream matches like this, not a right. The most important thing is the legitimacy of the competition and if there's considerable lag, that simply isn't acceptable. If you at any point popup lagging and the players ask you to leave, you leave. There is no if's nor but's, you LEAVE right then and there. Beyond that, it should be a privilege for the players to have their matches covered. The players need to remember that they benefit greatly from exposure. Sure prize money is nice, but sponsors pick up players that get exposure and teams pick up players that get sponsors. Streamers and players have (or should have) a mutually beneficial understanding. As soon as that is broken, as soon as streamers become more of a burden than added value to the community, something is going dreadfully wrong. If there's lag, by all means players should make sure it's not on their end, for their own sake. But if it's not them, first the “non-essential” people should leave (I question they should be there to begin with) and after that streamers. It makes no sense to sour a competition because of streamers not taking their responsibility, they are no longer benefiting the community in any way, shape or form. No one wants to see a laggy match. And when it comes to multiple streamers, you should be looking at the effect on the community. Yes there's a segment that doesn't understand certain languages, but the good of the many outweighs the good of the few, so obviously less universal streams should leave first. You're doing this as a service to the community, which is what streamers shouldn't forget. If you are asked to leave, leave. It is a joint decision between the players and the admins. If they want you out, go out. Furthermore, I always make sure I'm in fullscreen mode and I absolutely refuse to alt-tab to minimize whatever effect I have in game. Stupidity like that is just unprofessional. Lastly anyone that condones the behavior of the pieces of shit spamming the players should realize these people are nothing but a rotten influence on the community. They are self-centered egotistical brats who think their own viewing comfort is more important than the players, the competition and the tournament. I believe in a zero tolerance policy towards this kind of behavior.
+100, well said Martijn
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I'm half surprised anyone read that whole essay, but glad you did.
On May 09 2010 22:19 tyCe wrote:
It might be a good idea to just have one official streamer/broadcaster and have other sites stream from the official stream. That's pretty much what is done with most sports and even in the osl/msl. It is obviously not ideal for the unofficial streamers as they can't control the camera but it definitely respects the players first and foremost. If unofficial streamers are so anxious to control the camera they can simply stream the replay after the games have been played.
As one of the few commentators here that has done televised esports commentary, it really is not that bad to not have control of the camera. You'd be surprised. Of course you do need someone on the camera that knows what they're doing, which has been an issue at times.
You definitely have less control over what you can see and talk about, and you can't just check up on things like upgrades easily, but overal you can still give insightful commentary.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
Though it's obviously bad manners for any observers not to leave the game when asked to, the blame lies mostly with Blizzard.
For a game that is presented as the e-sports game, SC2's network part is very lazily done. The current streaming method is very intrusive because the game treats observers as equally important game participants, and if they have not received the latest data the game will wait for them. At the very least, it should not do that and must let the game continue uninterrupted unless it is one of the actual players that is lagging.
However much better, more flexible and scalable solution is to allow real-time streaming of in-game data, like HLTV does. It is very easy to implement, most of the required code is already there, as shown by this great chaoslauncher plugin. In short, it uses the standard SC replay viewing functionality, but tricks SC into thinking that it is playing a regular replay file, while actually the replay data is being streamed from a server in real time, where it is being pushed by one of the players as the game progresses. This effectively allows any number of users to watch the game being played using the engine, as if they were actually observing it in-game. Note that it has been done by a group of enthusiasts who did not even have access to any source code, just a small amount of clever reverse-engineering.
Their reluctance to implement something like this, along with all the other fan-requested features that are actually important for the community, while they are happily doing silly things like Facebook integration clearly shows that they, unfortunately, don't care much about supporting e-sports.
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Sweden33723 Posts
Yeah, WaaaghTV for WC3 was basically like that, and it has been requested *so* many times throughout the years SC2 has been in development.
Of course, they have barely even responded to it. I don't get why they are so reluctant to deal with these things 
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On May 11 2010 02:04 FrozenArbiter wrote:Yeah, WaaaghTV for WC3 was basically like that, and it has been requested *so* many times throughout the years SC2 has been in development. Of course, they have barely even responded to it. I don't get why they are so reluctant to deal with these things
It doesn't sell, while Facebook does
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Still in beta
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Hi everyone, I'm a member from the Millenium staff, SC II editor and part of the WebTV team.
I'm sorry if we didn't reply before the fact is I've just seen this thread right now.
So .
On May 09 2010 01:05 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Day9 is the official Razer Domination streamer the others are not. They are there simply due to the goodwill of the Razer Domination staff and their place comes after Day9 it's simple as that.
According to your logic when game one doesn't lag and no dropscreen appears in game two the game should just be continued playing in lag. That's not a solution at all it's an outrageous suggestion. When it's unclear who is lagging obses should leave one by one with the ones of least importance starting first until only the official stream is left.
And who's that guy who told you that Day9 was the ONLY official streamer of the Razer Domination Cup ? Haven't you seen the stream list at the razer domination page ? All streams you can see on this page are ALL official streamers, Losemann himself told me we were part of the official streamers of that Razer Cup, so don't tell me its because Day9 is such a famous guy blablabla so he's the only one who can stream even if he lags I really don't agree with that and such things make me very angry.
We, the Millenium Web TV were there to stream almost everygame of the tournament during the whole month and we're not even allowed to stream the grand final when Mister Day9 has only streamed the semi finals and the finals plus he was laggin as hell 3 or 4 times. It happened the same thing with Thegunrun when he was lagging and crashed 2 or 3 times but he left at the end. Actually, when "little streams" lag, you flame them and ask them to leave directly only because they dont have the "omg-so-required-2000-viewers" plus we dont shout in english.
It's rly weird coz we don't have such problem lags when we stream other tournaments except when we tab to fix some stream problem and thats another deal that has nothing to do with lag.
Anyway, I'd like to apologize for TheBesT's behaviour if he flamed you or whatever he said.
I think I said it all.
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EPT
