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Hey guys, I'd like to discuss a potential "new" wave of Forge First Expansions for SC2.
As a quick introduction, I switched from BW to SC2 when the game turned f2p, got initially place in Bronze, grinded up to Gold 1, and now Plat 2 in the first 2018 season. So please keep that in mind when reading on.
Currently, from what I've seen in all big tournaments like GSL, WCS, and what I've read on Spawningtool, the default PvZ build on top levels is a 1 Gate Expand into Stargate, often followed up by an Archon drop.
From a pro PoV this makes a lot of sense, and also correlates with recent Brood War trends, where most top protoss players like Bisu went Gate first instead of Forge lately as well. The Gate gives you greater flexibility, the ability to both harass early, and still be able to defend with proper walls, micro, etc., while the Stargate followup allows you to go Phoenix for hunting down Overlords, Void Ray to defend Roach all-ins, Oracle to harass and bank energy for Revelations on later Lurkers, etc. Additionally, Gate first is also better against ling drops.
Now on the other hand, the fact that I'm playing on such a low mmr made me think. There are several factors that lead me to believe that going Forge First Expand again would be beneficial. Maybe (most likely) not on high mmr or pro level, but on the low levels? Namely, those are:
1) Almost every game, but at least every second game is some sort of Rush, Cheese, or early All-In. This isn't exclusive for the matchup, Cannon Rushes, proxy Cyclones etc., are all just as common as stuff like 2 Base Ling Floods, 12 Pool or Roach/Ravager All-Ins. Nonetheless, Zerg is a special beast in terms of Rushes, with the added focus on walling off properly etc.
So in the end, there's often not much room left for early game aggression or harass from the protoss player if he wants to play an "honorable" game and not go for cheese or an all-in himself. This means that even going Gate first, you'll most likely only use the Gate for defensive purposes (apart from the Adept Shade scouting), something that a Forge first (and the followup cannons) do better.
2) Ling drops, while definitely strong, are almost nonexistent at this mmr. At least not as an early game strategy.
3) My own micro, and most likely that of the majority of players in my rating range, is obviously not on par with that of the pros. Now I already hear people arguing "but neither is your opponents!!!", and while this is true, it's most definitely easier to just A-Move 80 Zerglings and 20 Banelings into a Natural Wall, then trying to juggle units between your Batteries to have them heal the right ones, force fielding banelings away, etc. (Exaggarated of course, but you get the point).
So in the end, at least 2 of the 3 advantages you'd get from going Gate first instead of Forge first like people used to, don't really apply on this mmr (The flexibility of allowing you to be aggressive in the early game yourself, and the added safety against ling drops).
Now I don't have any fully cut-out build order for this, since it's just a play of thought right now, but I think it could be possible to just alter the more "standard" Stargate openers to include a Forge and 1-2 Cannons first. This will of course delay your Nexus by a few supply, so the price you're paying is having a slower ramp-up time, for more safety.
Idk, without any testing or real thought, something along the lines of:
14 - Pylon
15 - Forge
16 - Gas 1
19/20 - 1-2 Cannons (depending on Probe scout)
@400 minerals - Nexus
could be a decent opener? Followed by the Standard Gate, second Pylon, second Gas, Cyber, Stargate? Possibly even the Gate BEFORE the Nexus, and after the Cannons, although I think this might just delay your economy for too long :/
So yeah, as another reminder and to end this post, this is purely aimed towards those low ladder games around Platinum, for the reasons mentioned earlier. I'd be happy to hear what some more experienced players think about it, and I'm looking forward to your replies  Thanks already!
Edit: Sorry, something I should've mentioned too is that as a followup, either a Stargate for Oracles/Void Rays (depending on if you're facing Ling/Bane/Hydra or Roach/Ravager), or a Robo for Immortals is an option, since both tech paths give you a way of scouting enemy tech via the Flyers/Observers respectively, and then eventually transition out into a more standard Immortal/Archon/Chargelot comp for the late game, backed up by Storms. (IAC seems particularly good for the Stargate followup, since you'll most likely already have made a lot of Zealots early game to have your more limited gas pool for your SG units)
Edit 2: Robo followup seems like the more safe and defensive option, since it really just gives you a sturdy, hard to break through, unit mix. It's naturally worse against Mutalisks, but... I think Mutalisks are about as rare as it gets nowadays
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It's almost impossible to say what the best opener for lower MMR is since it depends on the deficiencies of you and your opponents at that level. But I would say that this opening is probably way too safe for PvZ. If you were to do it, I think you should make some use of the forge offensively by trying to cannon rush if the opportunity arises.
Better yet, just go 1 gate nexus into stargate and rush 1-2 voids with constant adept production. This lets you defend almost any rush and snipe overlords with a better economy.
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On February 02 2018 08:12 akomatic wrote:
It's almost impossible to say what the best opener for lower MMR is since it depends on the deficiencies of you and your opponents at that level. But I would say that this opening is probably way too safe for PvZ. If you were to do it, I think you should make some use of the forge offensively by trying to cannon rush if the opportunity arises.
Better yet, just go 1 gate nexus into stargate and rush 1-2 voids with constant adept production. This lets you defend almost any rush and snipe overlords with a better economy.
Thanks for the quick reply, I should've clarified though that I explicitly don't want to resort to cheese or all-ins myself. Imo that just delays the issues someone has ranking up. You might get a few free ranks by doing so, but eventually you meet people that are good enough to easily deflect it, and then you need to learn the "real" game ANYWAYS. So might as well do it right away 
So yeah, neither Cannon Rushes nor Void Ray rushes are an option
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On your MMR you can do whatever you want and manage to win a decent portion of your matches. I doubt if there are many zergs that really knows what should they do if they see a forge in the wall (indication of a possible cannon rush). As the perfect response is go gassless and drone hard to set up a very good eco vs your investment into defensive cannons, an early forge, etc.
I'm a masters zerg and a diamond protoss. A few month ago i was a diamond zerg and a few protosses were trying a forge fast expand vs me, so if you can do it on Diamond 1 you can do it in Plat 2.
As a protoss I can say that going for a forge first hurts your scouting options. You don't know if the zerg stopped droning on 19 drones (indication of aggression) or went for a 3 hatch before pool (indication of a very greedy play). Greed must be punished (force units or killing drones).
I guess with a forge fast expand you'd like to play macro rather then a 2 base timing. Your tech choices and decisions should be bases of what the zerg was doing. For example, a greedy zerg will skip roaches and banes and rush his hydras, which may end bad for you if his mission is accomplished. So making glaved adepts is a way to punish such a zerg. On the other hand, if the zerg makes go for roaches you'd rather make a sinlge or 2 adepts and increase your immortal count. A tech build into swarm hosts or a spire also requires adaptation unless you are aggressive, which you can't do as you make only defensive cannons.
So, if you want to you can do it and get a few tiers higher on the ladder. But if you want to improve those skills you lack you were talking about, I'd rather go for the units (gateway fast expand), learn what kind of reactions the scouting info tells me to do, and learn the usage of the units you have (as I guess you are not familiar with all of them, and avoiding their usage will take you more time to get familiar with them).
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On February 02 2018 09:27 bulya wrote:
On your MMR you can do whatever you want and manage to win a decent portion of your matches. I doubt if there are many zergs that really knows what should they do if they see a forge in the wall (indication of a possible cannon rush). As the perfect response is go gassless and drone hard to set up a very good eco vs your investment into defensive cannons, an early forge, etc.
I'm a masters zerg and a diamond protoss. A few month ago i was a diamond zerg and a few protosses were trying a forge fast expand vs me, so if you can do it on Diamond 1 you can do it in Plat 2.
As a protoss I can say that going for a forge first hurts your scouting options. You don't know if the zerg stopped droning on 19 drones (indication of aggression) or went for a 3 hatch before pool (indication of a very greedy play). Greed must be punished (force units or killing drones).
I guess with a forge fast expand you'd like to play macro rather then a 2 base timing. Your tech choices and decisions should be bases of what the zerg was doing. For example, a greedy zerg will skip roaches and banes and rush his hydras, which may end bad for you if his mission is accomplished. So making glaved adepts is a way to punish such a zerg. On the other hand, if the zerg makes go for roaches you'd rather make a sinlge or 2 adepts and increase your immortal count. A tech build into swarm hosts or a spire also requires adaptation unless you are aggressive, which you can't do as you make only defensive cannons.
So, if you want to you can do it and get a few tiers higher on the ladder. But if you want to improve those skills you lack you were talking about, I'd rather go for the units (gateway fast expand), learn what kind of reactions the scouting info tells me to do, and learn the usage of the units you have (as I guess you are not familiar with all of them, and avoiding their usage will take you more time to get familiar with them).
Those are some good points, the lack of an early Adept scout was something that bothered me too about the idea.
About progressing the information you scout, is there something like a "checklist" or "flowchart"?
Idk, something along the lines of:
Less than X drones in Nat -> Early aggression -> Complete Nat Wall, add a Shield battery
behind it
early large amounts of Lings -> Ling Bust -> Second Oracle instead of Phoenix from
the SG, chrono a Sentry for Force Fields
and denying Bane busts, add more batteries
large amounts of Lings pooling near an overlord -> Ling drop -> Shade adepts into main, close Wall, add
second Pylon to SG, get Phoenix after
Oracle to deny more drops
early Roach Warren -> Roach/Ling or Ravager -> Void Ray first or after Oracle, Robo for
Immortals
etc.
And if no, would anyone be interested in starting a project like this?
Edit: My formatting got majorly fucked for this post, but i hope people still get an idea of how i meant it x)
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i don't agree with you about cannon rushes being cheese. i agree with the poster who said they're something you need to try so you can compensate for your disadvantaged build. remember that in HOTS cannon rushes were a fairly normal opener that often transitioned into macro games. if zerg pulls a lot of drones you can just leave and let him sit there killing the pylon and you delay his mining. making void rays defensively is also not cheese, im confused why you think that. you want to do a weird non meta build but when people suggest how to make your build better you call their suggestions cheese? kind of strange. you're interpreting things as "cheese" that are more like tactical responses to how your opener compares to your opponent's and where you can create damage
fact is if a good zerg scouts FFE after no cannon rush he can very easily go for aggressive drops, a greedy third, or probably both. that's why people suggest being a little bit aggressive with cannons and using voids to shut down aggression. playing "straight up" FFE is just putting yourself behind unless your opponent doesn't know what to do. in plat-dia you can just go greedy third nexus off a gate expand and half your opponents won't know how to punish it. it's been well known for years and years in starcraft that at mid levels almost anything can work if you practice and execute, we aren't just making stuff up. if you want to play your own way that's cool, FFE and don't make cannons or voids, but there's nothing super good about it compared to just playing standard
another problem with FFE is that in LOTV one of the big advantages you can get is from spending an insane amount of minerals on an early nexus and lots of probes, but to be properly safe against skilled drops when FFEing you end up dumping minerals into cannons and zealots/adepts so your main can be safe. classically in HOTS the point of FFE was that you could saturate 2 bases a bit more greedily as fast drops weren't an option for zerg, but i'm not even sure that's the case in LOTV.
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On February 02 2018 11:17 brickrd wrote:
i don't agree with you about cannon rushes being cheese. i agree with the poster who said they're something you need to try so you can compensate for your disadvantaged build. remember that in HOTS cannon rushes were a fairly normal opener that often transitioned into macro games. if zerg pulls a lot of drones you can just leave and let him sit there killing the pylon and you delay his mining. making void rays defensively is also not cheese, im confused why you think that. you want to do a weird non meta build but when people suggest how to make your build better you call their suggestions cheese? kind of strange. you're interpreting things as "cheese" that are more like tactical responses to how your opener compares to your opponent's and where you can create damage
fact is if a good zerg scouts FFE after no cannon rush he can very easily go for aggressive drops, a greedy third, or probably both. that's why people suggest being a little bit aggressive with cannons and using voids to shut down aggression. playing "straight up" FFE is just putting yourself behind unless your opponent doesn't know what to do. in plat-dia you can just go greedy third nexus off a gate expand and half your opponents won't know how to punish it. it's been well known for years and years in starcraft that at mid levels almost anything can work if you practice and execute, we aren't just making stuff up. if you want to play your own way that's cool, FFE and don't make cannons or voids, but there's nothing super good about it compared to just playing standard
another problem with FFE is that in LOTV one of the big advantages you can get is from spending an insane amount of minerals on an early nexus and lots of probes, but to be properly safe against skilled drops when FFEing you end up dumping minerals into cannons and zealots/adepts so your main can be safe. classically in HOTS the point of FFE was that you could saturate 2 bases a bit more greedily as fast drops weren't an option for zerg, but i'm not even sure that's the case in LOTV.
I don't think we need to argue about what makes Cannon Rushes Cheese, that should be really obvious for everyone, regardless of rank, it's literally in the name.
And "rushing a Void Ray"=/="A Void Ray Rush", the former describes getting a defensive technique, the latter a cheese. I never said I won't get an early VR to hunt Overlords and scout, I said I won't Void Ray rush someone.
Apart from that, my PERSONAL decision not to use cheeses, rushes or all-ins, but instead playing macro every single game has nothing to do with the topic, so feel free to not pick that up anymore. This is solely about the question if FFE with a defensive cannon usage is a viable alternative, while still keeping the SG followup for Oracles/Phoenixes/Void Rays depending on the situation.
The lack of an Adept Shade scout Bulya mentioned is a valid concern and argument against this. "Muh just cannon rush".. isn't.
Edit: To make sure I also contribute and not just shoot people down with this post: Is there any way to possibly circumvent the scouting issue? I was considering Hallucinations, or sending multiple scouting Probes... but the first option is only marginally faster than the delayed Adept when going FF, since you still need the Cyber Core, while the second option hurts your economy even more I guess?
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I don't think its a good idea to do FFE.
This is not WoL, you start with a lot of workers so you can use tech quite early, doing a forge instead of a gateway and then building cannons sets you back a lot in terms of tech, neuters any chance of you applying pressure and keeping the zerg under control.
Also, Ravers absolutely wreck cannons. You would have a lot of trouble dealing with a handful of Roach Ravager with a delayed Stargate
Gateway first + some shield batteries gives you a lot more flexibility (be aggresive or defensive), a lot more tech options (faster twilight council or starport).
Maybe FFE is okay on some maps with two pocket expansions, but even then I'd go Gateway first
Even then:
14 - Pylon
15 - Forge
16 - Gas 1
19/20 - 1-2 Cannons (depending on Probe scout)
@400 minerals - Nexus
You don't need to take the gas so early I think (what are you even going to use it for, what you need is minerals)
I dont FFE but I feel something like: Pylon, Forge, Nexus, Gateway, Gas, Gas, Cyber or Pylon, Forge, Nexus, Gas, Gateway, Gas, Cyber could work - I'd go for the first since I feel Gateway tech is delayed enough already
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If you got problems with rushes, just go for gate-gas-gate-cyber-nexus, with scout after 2-nd gate to know, you need chrono zealot vs 12pool or not (dont remember exact limits, but you just constantly build probes, and build all buildings with one probe) you sacrifice some economy to have enough units for early floods/rushes, and still have scouting with adepts, can transition to many paths like SG / Robo / TW / TW+Robo etc... + save chrono for 2 initial adepts, and you will be surprised how good this harass will be on lower leagues, + this gives you some skills for later game when you up in ranks more.
FFE just gives you chance not to die from frontal ling atack, but he will see this with overlord, drop EVO, and flood your main with droperlord...and you wont even have adept at that time / or fast lair and nydus allin, it could be hard to stop even with gateway style, but with forge you will have so much less / or ravagers outrange cannons, so with roach rush he can just kill all your canons for free and ez rush you. So this is why you not FFE in LOTV
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I miss FFE, it was one of my favorite builds. In HOTS and WoL it was super flexible, you could cannon rush if your opponent was greedy, or simply follow up with greed of your own.
That being said, the main reason you don't see it anymore is the 12 worker start. The 12 worker start really compressed timings in the game, and made teching up super fast.
Simply, you can't really afford to be late on your tech with a 12 worker start because of how fast your opponent's tech can be.
Also, if you are going to FFE, you should always pylon scout so you can cannon rush those greedy hatch firsts.
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@pereza0
Yeah, I know the Gate Expand is more flexible, but that was one of the points i mentioned in the OP, that in the majority of the games on this mmr you won't be able to actually CAPITALIZE on the option to go aggressive, since you'll have to defend some kind of all-in or rush in almost every game. On higher ranks I 100% agree with you.
About the delayed tech, it makes sense how you describe it, but shouldn't I at least come out equal if my opponent commits so many ressources into a rush? If he stops droning, but I keep making Probes, and defend his rush, I'll most likely come out on top, but surely not behind, so the delayed tech won't "matter"? Or am I missing something right now? ._.
The Ravager argument is a solid one though... since you most likely won't have a Void Ray or Immortal out by the time a Roach/Ravager All-In hits... not sure if there's a way to circumvent this, so good point
@WayTeh_
yeah I was considering double gate before expanding too, similar to how you open in PvP, just walling the Nat instead of the main ramp, so maybe that's an option. On another note, I might be an idiot right now, but what does "TW" mean? Twilight Council?
@AkashSky
Same, it might just be because I'm so used to it from playing Brood War, but not opening with a Forge and Cannons in PvZ just feels so "wrong" to me, even though I know it's the correct thing right now :D
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Apart from that, thanks a lot to everyone for contributing, some good insight already!
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Dia terran here, so im a bit out of my element but; wouldn´t it be a decent option to just try and go FFE (with or without cannonrush whatever.... ) and try to follow it up with a quick +1 stalker flood? maybe like a 4 gate to try and punish a greedy 3rd into hydra transition? i mean you have the nexus recall now so there is no real reason not to be agressive with small unit numbers.
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think it could be strong as a surprise sort of build but I don't think the +1 is worth how much later the attack would hit
think going forge first for the sake of earlier upgrades is weaker than going production first and then just chronoing the forge later; if you chrono the forge and go forge first you won't have enough units to actually do damage
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thats a fair point. but what if your intention isnt to break zerg but rather just to force out a response? or would the moveout simply get punished too hard before the recall hits, making it an inefficient trade.
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@alpenrahm
I like the idea overall, but what made you chose Stalkers for it? Seems like a +1 Gladept or even Chargelot push would be a lot better unless the Zerg goes for early Roach/Ravagers, no?
Or were you talking about PvT?
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honestly,its just preference. i mean we r talking about ways to get a FFE build working in low land mmr. And something like a quick stalker attack just feels pretty slick if you r a one-trick-pony-blink-play-offrace-protoss. get a forge build stalkers get blink and eventually overwhelm the other dude. Terran logic made protoss.
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Also, you could show a FFE and hide 2 more forges in the back to rush 3-3-3 zealot archon. everything is possible if you are set on making it work.
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EPT
