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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
also don't commit to more than 10 mutas at first (i have had some success skipping muta and then doing a massive switch later in the game - protoss style) also i do not recommend ling bane on orbital shipyard, it's very hard to deal with bio at the cliff by the third | ||
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therealkillemall
Spain30 Posts
So I'm getting frustrated with terran air. Lots of terrans play full air from the very beginning (at least at my level). The thing is I cant find a way to engage a critical amount of battlecruisers. I think that Parasitic Bomb + mass corruptors is not effective enough since the new teletransport spell allows micro. I lose a huge amount of corruptors each time I engage. Should hydras or fungal be included in the mix? I'm pretty lost. Maybe mass spore the whole map and pray for the terran to step into the spore-forest... Thanks in advance. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On February 24 2016 22:12 therealkillemall wrote: Hi. So I'm getting frustrated with terran air. Lots of terrans play full air from the very beginning (at least at my level). The thing is I cant find a way to engage a critical amount of battlecruisers. I think that Parasitic Bomb + mass corruptors is not effective enough since the new teletransport spell allows micro. I lose a huge amount of corruptors each time I engage. Should hydras or fungal be included in the mix? I'm pretty lost. Maybe mass spore the whole map and pray for the terran to step into the spore-forest... Thanks in advance. How's the Terran getting to mass BC, exactly? | ||
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therealkillemall
Spain30 Posts
How's the Terran getting to mass BC, exactly? Well. They reach that composition in late game of course. They open 2 base liberator-banshee or tank-hellion-liberator. As the game progresses, they expand slowly and replace those units with battlecruisers. There are maps (such as dusk towers or prion terraces) where 4-5 bases can be defended easily by a turtle-terran. Maybe I need to be more agressive (I use to play passively until tier 3), but in 30 min games against terran mech, you eventually face that kind of composition. Once you do, how do you kill it? Thanks again. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15868 Posts
On February 24 2016 23:58 therealkillemall wrote: Well. They reach that composition in late game of course. They open 2 base liberator-banshee or tank-hellion-liberator. As the game progresses, they expand slowly and replace those units with battlecruisers. There are maps (such as dusk towers or prion terraces) where 4-5 bases can be defended easily by a turtle-terran. Maybe I need to be more agressive (I use to play passively until tier 3), but in 30 min games against terran mech, you eventually face that kind of composition. Once you do, how do you kill it? Thanks again. vs pure bcs you don't even need vipers. Mass corruptor owns that. If he adds ravens/vikings/liberators you blow them up with PB. | ||
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
On February 25 2016 01:17 Charoisaur wrote: vs pure bcs you don't even need vipers. Mass corruptor owns that. If he adds ravens/vikings/liberators you blow them up with PB. With two major caveats: 1. air upgrades, you're gonna need at least 2/2 to fight his 3/3 so keep upgrading air 2. eco matters, he will try to delay your eco with either banshee or helion, you need to prevent that and hurt his eco with runbys and corruptor spew whenever possible. Battlecruisers take a ridiclous amount of time to kill an upgraded ultralisk, it's hilarious. A good air player would definitely add liberators or ravens as their aoe can harshly punish your courruptors if they clump up. Vipers obviously help against those and you should also be yanking battlecruisers out of the clump and sniping them whenever possible. Surprisingly, it is possible for Terran to do a late game tech switch with zerg being way over committed to corruptors so have an ultralisk cavern and greater spire ready at the super late game and don't be afraid to sacrifice some corruptors after his air army has been dealt with so you can respond. | ||
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DERASTAT
Germany99 Posts
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
Unless your doing like some tailored Nydus build (even then Photon Overcharge is very strong at defense) dealing with 12+ Adepts seems absurd since they are ludicrously tanky and strong vs light, the Pheonix count is completely undeterred by 2 spores once the numbers go past 8 and the micro is half way decent (also fucks with my Lurkers with lifts) and of course the sledgehammer of Archons/Immortals/Chargelots that without Lurkers there really doesn't seem to be much hope of winning a straight up fight. I don't know, like I said very frustrated and it feels like Protoss can defend very easily while putting on pressure with the air units and Adepts retard 2 shotting drones. Any advice vs this besides cleaner macro and micro? I wasn't even "caught off guard" considering this is pretty much the new standard metagame from Protoss. | ||
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
On February 26 2016 04:40 jpg06051992 wrote: Extremely frustrated vs. the current Protoss metagame which is a greedy Nexus followed by double gas/Pheonix and Adept into Immortal and Archon Chargelot. Unless your doing like some tailored Nydus build (even then Photon Overcharge is very strong at defense) dealing with 12+ Adepts seems absurd since they are ludicrously tanky and strong vs light, the Pheonix count is completely undeterred by 2 spores once the numbers go past 8 and the micro is half way decent (also fucks with my Lurkers with lifts) and of course the sledgehammer of Archons/Immortals/Chargelots that without Lurkers there really doesn't seem to be much hope of winning a straight up fight. I don't know, like I said very frustrated and it feels like Protoss can defend very easily while putting on pressure with the air units and Adepts retard 2 shotting drones. Any advice vs this besides cleaner macro and micro? I wasn't even "caught off guard" considering this is pretty much the new standard metagame from Protoss. If you want something beyond 'macro better' you should upload a replay. A Nexus first into gate into cybercore without enough pylons and units can definitely be harshly punished by just speedlings, they will stablize eventually but you should be able to do a lot of damage and close with roach ravager. It's all about knowing when to switch back to drones. 12+ adepts is a lot, that means you should have a sizable army, it's about scouting what protoss is doing and not over droning as most answer are just a straight up "make drones up to X then make a ton of units". against early adept harass you want to have one control group for your queens zoning at the front and one for lings chasing the shades. If you sense they are gonna get cheeky a spine crawler in the back mineral line is a life saver, dealing with Adept is about splitting your army wisely and managing two diffrent control groups. Not easy, but fine once you get the hang of it. | ||
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joshie0808
Canada1023 Posts
On February 25 2016 15:00 IcemanAsi wrote: Surprisingly, it is possible for Terran to do a late game tech switch with zerg being way over committed to corruptors so have an ultralisk cavern and greater spire ready at the super late game and don't be afraid to sacrifice some corruptors after his air army has been dealt with so you can respond. Yep, saw this in a recent BTTV tournament where the Z had too many corruptors and lost to a switch back to ground from the terran. Remember that you can now use/sacrifice your corrputors by flying around and puking on all his planetaries and new bases, often times still dont see this being utilized to full potential. It also means your corruptors have utility outside the main fight, you can 'harass' with them, force repositions and more turrets etc. | ||
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redloser
Korea (South)1721 Posts
I deal with 2 base all-ins just fine, you can drone up quite a lot and just mass units in time, but against 1 base, you just do not have enough resources. Protosses open up with 2 gate adept, which forces ~10lings, and they go for 1base 5 gate adept-immortal push, and I lost to that three times in a row. I beat that guy whenever he took his natural, so I don't think my skill levels are lacking compared to his. Roaches die to immortals, lings die to adepts, so I tried banelings, but they are such expensive units that you can't really afford them when you are forced at a low economy. | ||
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atstapley
23 Posts
On February 26 2016 23:23 redloser wrote: How do you defend against Protoss's 1 base all-ins? I deal with 2 base all-ins just fine, you can drone up quite a lot and just mass units in time, but against 1 base, you just do not have enough resources. Protosses open up with 2 gate adept, which forces ~10lings, and they go for 1base 5 gate adept-immortal push, and I lost to that three times in a row. I beat that guy whenever he took his natural, so I don't think my skill levels are lacking compared to his. Roaches die to immortals, lings die to adepts, so I tried banelings, but they are such expensive units that you can't really afford them when you are forced at a low economy. Spine crawlers and queens help a lot. I would get 3-4 spines at your ramp, as many queens as you can, and dump all of your gas into ravagers. With decent infuses it shouldn't be too hard at all. | ||
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redloser
Korea (South)1721 Posts
On February 27 2016 00:06 atstapley wrote: Spine crawlers and queens help a lot. I would get 3-4 spines at your ramp, as many queens as you can, and dump all of your gas into ravagers. With decent infuses it shouldn't be too hard at all. Thanks a lot. Come to think of it, the immortal shield change wouldn't help much against spines I guess. | ||
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
Like skytoss basically, nothing on the ground but spines, total 3/4 base turtle. double spire upgrades, corruptor/viper/muta/broodlord? *thinking aloud* You could add Bane drops for mass trolling, escort the overlords in with your air army and then drop the banes and leave | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On February 28 2016 18:26 IcemanAsi wrote: Has anyone ever tried playing a dedicated sky zerg? Like skytoss basically, nothing on the ground but spines, total 3/4 base turtle. double spire upgrades, corruptor/viper/muta/broodlord? *thinking aloud* You could add Bane drops for mass trolling, escort the overlords in with your air army and then drop the banes and leave Also theory-crafting, what would you do with all the minerals? Just mass mass spines? >_> queens maybe? Which matchup are we talking? I assume this is a very late game build, as you don't have anything shooting down until brood lords.  Don't think you can survive unitl broodlords on only spines, so you have to do some real tech before you get the BLs, and that will suffer if you start dumping resources into spire upgrades. :/ so I can only see it being useful at a very late split map scenario, with like 7 bases on each side... And at that point I think BLs are just too slow to be useful. The other guy, independently of race, can just go and kill the three bases you don't defend, and then go and kill the other 4 while you are trying to chase to defend. At best you can get some base-trade scenario, but again, I think you'll be too slow to win consistently.But yeah, just making stuff up that sounds good, I'd be happy to hear an actually competent player comment on this.  | ||
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
On February 28 2016 20:16 Cascade wrote: Also theory-crafting, what would you do with all the minerals? Just mass mass spines? >_> queens maybe? Which matchup are we talking? I assume this is a very late game build, as you don't have anything shooting down until brood lords. Don't think you can survive unitl broodlords on only spines, so you have to do some real tech before you get the BLs, and that will suffer if you start dumping resources into spire upgrades. :/ so I can only see it being useful at a very late split map scenario, with like 7 bases on each side... And at that point I think BLs are just too slow to be useful. The other guy, independently of race, can just go and kill the three bases you don't defend, and then go and kill the other 4 while you are trying to chase to defend. At best you can get some base-trade scenario, but again, I think you'll be too slow to win consistently.But yeah, just making stuff up that sounds good, I'd be happy to hear an actually competent player comment on this. Thinking about mainly ZvP. What you are describing ( late game transition to air on split maps ) is basically broodlord/infestor endgame, which I think was proven viable a couple of times :D I was just wondering if anyone tried to get directly there, without a ground based mid-game, I assume no one did because just as you said, Zergs mineral based defense simply isn't up to the task. Thou a mass queen + spine turtle into the air tech could be interesting. And yeah, all the minerals go toward spines and queens and a wack-a-mole expansion strategy. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On February 28 2016 20:51 IcemanAsi wrote: What you are describing ( late game transition to air) is basically broodlord/infestor endgame, which I think was proven viable a couple of times :D I was just wondering if anyone tried to get directly there, without a ground based mid-game, I assume no one did because just as you said, Zergs static defense simply isn't up to the task. Thou a mass queen + spine turtle into the air tech could be interesting. And yeah, all the minerals go toward spines and queens and a wack-a-mole expansion strategy. I sincerely hope that strategy is not viable. At least do some muta-ling on the way... ling runby is a great complement to a slow air army I'd think, and the ground melee upgrades helps the broodlings anyway. | ||
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atstapley
23 Posts
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On February 29 2016 04:05 atstapley wrote: I'm struggling with hatch first mass lings into fast Mutas. I can't get a stronger Econ because the lings just keep coming so I have to drop all my larvae into lings to defend, and the blings I make drain my gas so I have fewer Mutas when the time comes. Any tips? Without a replay it is hard to say critically where you can improve. Feel free to upload one so we can see and analyze. The thing is, if he is mass linging then he cannot be getting ahead, if you are trading efficiently there is no way he can get ahead with eco. Focus on defending well, having defense in appropriate places and then slowly slipping drones inbetween rounds of lings/mutas. | ||
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
On February 28 2016 20:59 Cascade wrote: I sincerely hope that strategy is not viable. At least do some muta-ling on the way... ling runby is a great complement to a slow air army I'd think, and the ground melee upgrades helps the broodlings anyway. After a night of some ridiculous games... it's not that bad, pro viable? probably not. But works. Sure, you can NOT do it in ZvZ but I think that was a given and me trying was more for laughs, it wasn't that funny. But in ZvT this build absolutely demolishes mech play, mass Queens easy hold the mech early game harass options and you have broodlords and air advantage so early it's a little sad to see them try to actually get aggressive. Then again how mech play do we really see? This was also not that bad against passive protos play as the economy just snowballs so fast as you are spending literally zero laravae on units. But a dedicated 2 base push from either protoss or terran just kills you. I also found myself floating a ton of gas before hive which gave way to a very intresting idea I'm going to try tonight - Queen Infestor mid game. So it's open gasless into quick three base and constantly produce queens. Get your gas geysers once you're saturated and go lair then infestation pit, and make queen infestor, this would let you actually defend a mid game push and dump a lot of that gas, then take spire and get some harass with mutas while going for broodlords. It's a broodlord/infestor rush where your mid game queen infestor is 100% effective for your late game composition, and your mutas can either keep your opponent in his base or demolish his econ if he moves out. And if he moves out you fungal him like mad while queens and spines out range everything. Will it blend? no idea, will try tonight. | ||
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