EPTThe LotV Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 70
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Russano
United States434 Posts
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On March 26 2019 21:02 insitelol wrote: Regarding hellions problem... My honest opinion is that walling against terran may backlash you hard in certain scenarios. Terran just can go mass bio and destroy all your production for free. So you just lose your game right there. And overall hellions do not need any kind of counter. It's all an overreaction. Just put a single SB per mineral line preemtively (when your natural probe count is around 12 ). Defend with 3-4 stalkers per line. SB is such an obvious solution i dunno what to add. It cockblocks banshees, marine drops and hellions. Too good not to be used. (low/mid masters experience). With SB in the mineral line you are pretty much safe even against 4 hellion runbys. Just make sure to focus fire one of them when they approach. Makes it much harder for terran to do significant damage with 3 or less. Overall, i just feel that hellions only work on unprepared players and is the worst possible opening for terran who seeks to do early damage, marine/mine drops could be much more deadlier. Batteries that early to me is a really big investment IMO. I'd rather have a clean opening to my build with a wall than to go for double battery + stalkers (which is really pigeonholing your build btw) by the time 4 hellions show up. Ofc, sometimes i build a battery as well as the wall so I can see your point, but I feel like you're calling the wall response an overreaction when in my head, your response is an overreaction. I don't agree about hellions being the worst opening for damage, hellion drop is by far the scariest easy loss opening in TvP IMO, and I've seen a lot of success from 2 hellion openings recently. But, to be fair, if you're building 2 shield batteries and 6-8 stalkers for defence every game, I'm sure you're pretty safe. It's not really an opening I'd wanna do, especially not every game, but I can see it being an okay ladder build. | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
On March 28 2019 18:34 blooblooblahblah wrote: Batteries that early to me is a really big investment IMO. I'd rather have a clean opening to my build with a wall than to go for double battery + stalkers (which is really pigeonholing your build btw) by the time 4 hellions show up. Ofc, sometimes i build a battery as well as the wall so I can see your point, but I feel like you're calling the wall response an overreaction when in my head, your response is an overreaction. I don't agree about hellions being the worst opening for damage, hellion drop is by far the scariest easy loss opening in TvP IMO, and I've seen a lot of success from 2 hellion openings recently. But, to be fair, if you're building 2 shield batteries and 6-8 stalkers for defence every game, I'm sure you're pretty safe. It's not really an opening I'd wanna do, especially not every game, but I can see it being an okay ladder build. I can see your point as well, but as you said 1 battery is almost a must, don't see how another 100 would hurt your build at all. Building 2 batteries when your natural is almost saturated doesnt hurt any timings... (i don't ever skip a boost on the nexy till i get 44 probes, let alone stopping probe production). And ofc i don't have 6-8 stalkers that early (that's impossible), i have like 3-4 stalkers and sentry (an early one). I add a few more stalkers a bit later. And i open robo, yep. If you don't play stalkers then i guess you make adepts. well they are not bad against hellions either... The only scenario where you would need those extra 100 minerals is when you play agressively with adepts into SG (i guess). Not fond of that, so i have no opinion. All in all. Yes, if you are pro who cuts every corner and know exactly what he is doing early game (dealing damage, harrasing w/e), i can justify neglecting defense. But the thing is losing even 1 or 2 probes already negects all your mineral savings for making that extra 1 sb. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
does anyone have a pro replay where a protoss was punished for walling? in my experience it's usually REAPER walls that get punished as you can potentially lose your pylon/core to low ground units w/medivac, but even that is pretty rare and i do it every game anyway i can see adding a battery strictly in the main when you're not sure if there's a starport followup and want to play conservative, but that's a pretty normal safety move anyway in case of banshee, and putting one in the natural mineral line is unnecessary | ||
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Tempest
United States147 Posts
On March 29 2019 04:23 brickrd wrote: i have a really hard time understanding how "mass bio" is somehow threatening to a walled natural? plenty of terrans on ladder do stuff like 3rax and my gate placement has never felt like an issue at all, the main thing for me is usually having enough units/batteries to hold. if you can't fight the army by the time it hits your natural i don't think the problem is having gates there. if anything it would be siege pushes that would be likely to take out the gates, but even in that case you want to be ready to engage/force siege before he's on top of your natural anyway. plus if you get a correct scout it nullifies the whole issue since there's a clear difference between bio builds and factory builds does anyone have a pro replay where a protoss was punished for walling? in my experience it's usually REAPER walls that get punished as you can potentially lose your pylon/core to low ground units w/medivac, but even that is pretty rare and i do it every game anyway i can see adding a battery strictly in the main when you're not sure if there's a starport followup and want to play conservative, but that's a pretty normal safety move anyway in case of banshee, and putting one in the natural mineral line is unnecessary Next time I see it on ladder ill shoot ya the replay, but in general, you wont be able to get out of your wall to engage the terran without giving them the dream concave on your trickling units. They basically get to kill your wall for free unless they royally mess up. I don't say this disrespectfully, but im kinda surprised you don't see how it could be detrimental lol. EDIT: im not talking about the 2 gate hellion wall btw, im talking about a wall that you make say in a PvR thinking it could be zerg youre up against, after reading some of the interesting posts before yours, yeah idk what the concern is lol | ||
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Jan1997
Norway671 Posts
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On April 19 2019 04:16 Jan1997 wrote: Why do so many zergs expand so late? Like, they seem to expand at 20 supply instead of 14-16 and make 2 packs of lings before that, which they send to my wall and it just looks so weird. I didn't think much of it to begin with but now I've seen it enough times to get interested in an answer as to why so many do that. This is at D1 level. at D1 a lot of people do builds that are overreactions to things they find annoying, like for example pylon blocks or cannon rushes. a lot of diamond zergs for some reason think pylon blocking borders on "cheating." i guess it just frustrates people? the lings are probably to clear pylon blocks and then run into your base for an early scout/cheeky probe snipe. they could also be trying to scare you into thinking there's an allin coming, so just scout actively with your adept and if there's no followup attack then play standard and be slightly ahead  | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On April 19 2019 04:16 Jan1997 wrote: Why do so many zergs expand so late? Like, they seem to expand at 20 supply instead of 14-16 and make 2 packs of lings before that, which they send to my wall and it just looks so weird. I didn't think much of it to begin with but now I've seen it enough times to get interested in an answer as to why so many do that. This is at D1 level. I'm at roughly the same level and I have seen this a lot too. It doesn't make much sense. The pool is too late for it to be a threat versus the standard gateway into nexus opening since you can just wall off and chrono out a zealot and adept if you see them actually build more than a couple zerglings with your scout probe. It would make sense if they were doing early pressure or something but they almost never do so it seems like they just automatically end up behind. Even more puzzling for me is I've been seeing zergs taking much slower thirds (as in 3 minute or later third base) while not being aggressive. Initially I thought it was to cause the protoss to panic and think they're getting hit with nydus, but you can adept scout in time to be safe either way so the zerg just ends up behind. I don't think I've lost a single game against this yet because it's easy to scout. If I don't see a third by 3 minutes I just suicide my scout probe to see if a lair is being built and then confirm with an adept if my probe doesn't make it into the main. The only thing I can think of that vaguely makes it make any sense is that they're sacrificing the slightly faster third for more drones earlier, but even then it doesn't seem like it gives any advantage unless protoss panics and assumes nydus. | ||
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ssregitoss
Turkey241 Posts
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Jan1997
Norway671 Posts
On April 22 2019 05:53 ssregitoss wrote: Noone found a counter to late game bcs. if you watch late game pro games pvt . all protoss lost to mass bc. Yeah, i got fucked over by this yesterday lol. Wasn't even a close game. The dude told me to go mass void rays next time. Haven't tested if that helps yet. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
I'm skeptical of how well mass void ray would work. I tried doing a mix of voidray and tempest and the BCs still came out ahead. Void rays don't have a lot of health so if they go for a bunch of Yamatos they can finish off each void ray pretty quickly with the auto-attack, which just leaves you with tempests, which melt to BCs now due to the low health and aren't fast enough anymore to retreat properly. The only thing I've found that even comes close is enough tempests to one-shot them and oracle revelation, but if they jump right on top of the tempests, the tempests melt pretty quickly unless there's a bunch of shield batteries. Maybe carriers since they're the only Protoss air unit that doesn't have quite low HP? I guess with how good that auto-attack is now, carriers might not even be good anymore. | ||
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Quantran
United States44 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26185 Posts
On April 25 2019 06:18 Quantran wrote: Hey ya'll. After being a bronze league terran i switched to toss and immediatly got into silver. I'm pretty good at toss macro (at least by my standards, it is what's getting me wins). However i have no idea how protoss micro works (when to use abilities other than psi storm) and counters. Can you guys help me out? Generally forcefield use actually varies quite a lot and how to use it only really comes with experience. Ideally you want to cut armies up to minimise their ability to damage you, but leave enough of a chunk that your units can attack it and whittle down their numbers. Sometimes you might want to completely block a ramp and not engage to buy time for a storm or something, or block an opponent’s ramp for reinforcements. You’ll want to use it in combination with your buildings when playing vZ and lings in particular to stop them getting at your units, especially immortals. Also don’t forget to have a sentry using guardian shield, it’s not as obvious in its effects as other spells but it’s really strong. With storm, it’s just generally quite a good spell :p Protoss stuff is relatively tanky up to a point, but when armies start getting really big they can melt pretty quickly to high DPS units, so you need AoE to try and take out as much of that as you can, as quickly as you can. Bio and marines especially with T, big numbers of lings and especially hydras in Zerg. It really does vary a lot, it comes with experience, when your brain can do the calculus of what units and numbers beat what units, which can take a bit of time. I’d watch a few pro games or streams and pay close attention to how they forcefield, it’s easier to see it in action than it is to explain purely by text. Happy hunting. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On April 25 2019 06:18 Quantran wrote: Hey ya'll. After being a bronze league terran i switched to toss and immediatly got into silver. I'm pretty good at toss macro (at least by my standards, it is what's getting me wins). However i have no idea how protoss micro works (when to use abilities other than psi storm) and counters. Can you guys help me out? i mean... all your units multiplied by all the enemy units in the game = a lot of unit interactions, so this is a hard question to answer, especially because as you get higher in rank you'll have to micro more. but some of the common toss micro interactions are: -picking up expensive units before they die with your warp prism. in silver league you can probably solo a three base opponent with nothing but a WP and two immortals, lol. same can be done for archons, colossus, even gateway units in low supply fights -moving bulky or fragile units behind charge zealots so the zealots don't get stuck and clump up -target firing: stalkers on air units, immortals on tanks, marauders or roaches, adepts on drones or hydras, tempests on brood lords, liberators, BCs, carriers, vipers, etc. -spreading out against banelings and widow mines -kiting/poking against defensive terran setups so you don't wander into liberators and PFs -oracle micro: target drones and then quickly keep moving so you can optimize your shots while over anti-air defense and still get out alive, this takes a lot of practice -recall: learning how early you need to recall to save units, as the teleport takes a while | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26185 Posts
I've taken the odd break from playing for long periods, or even watching the game. I do like to think I do have a decent Starcraft brain and have some ideas as to why these might be the case, just was curious to get some answers here. | ||
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Quantran
United States44 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26185 Posts
On April 26 2019 09:11 Quantran wrote: thank you so much brickrd and wombat, that's great info. Happy to help man, it’s a hard game to get even semi-decent at but the Terran tears make it all worth it | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 26 2019 04:35 Wombat_NI wrote: Is there a particular reason Collosus/disruptors seem largely non-existent in PvZ these days? I've taken the odd break from playing for long periods, or even watching the game. I do like to think I do have a decent Starcraft brain and have some ideas as to why these might be the case, just was curious to get some answers here. Because immortals are better | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26185 Posts
Certainly a good unit to have, plus the game flow and setup works better compositionally to go chargelot/immortal/Templar, and those timing attacks can be extremely nasty Collosus I guess is just too vulnerable to a player saccing corrupters and removing your AoE, or viper pulls. Plus they synergised better with stalker balls in Wings/HotS, which isn’t how PvZ flows now. Disruptors though? They seem like they’d be useful to zone stuff away from your army and do damage when you’re transitioning to air toss, and you’ve generally got dual robots up anyway. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 26 2019 19:00 Wombat_NI wrote: Certainly a good unit to have, plus the game flow and setup works better compositionally to go chargelot/immortal/Templar, and those timing attacks can be extremely nasty Collosus I guess is just too vulnerable to a player saccing corrupters and removing your AoE, or viper pulls. Plus they synergised better with stalker balls in Wings/HotS, which isn’t how PvZ flows now. Disruptors though? They seem like they’d be useful to zone stuff away from your army and do damage when you’re transitioning to air toss, and you’ve generally got dual robots up anyway. Don't have disruptors the same issue that they need blink stalkers? Because otherwise you risk killing your own chargelots in case you missmicro slightly? (maybe it's the micro requirement) | ||
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