WCSThe LotV Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 69
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AusProbe
Australia213 Posts
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brickrd
United States4600 Posts
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Tempest
United States137 Posts
On February 18 2019 06:31 brickrd wrote: what is the optimal response to 3gate proxy robo with prism in PvP when not playing SG? it's one of the few things i feel helpless against. my instinct is that i just have to chrono out my own immortals and prism and micro better, but i feel like when my opponent hits with the prism he is always able to start sniping stalkers/pylons before i'm ready to micro. anyone have general tips? Are they getting an immortal as well or just the 3gate stalker with prism all in? I play 3 gate stalker prism all in almost exclusively on ladder (I dont proxy the robo tho) and usually when I lose either they scouted my lack of expand for quite a while so knew hard aggression was coming and stopped probing or they get a great snipe on the warp prism. chronoing out 2 immortals is usually hard for me to deal with as well. Blink stalker also sometimes gives me a hard time, but I can usually hit before they have blink and 3 gate production, I think last time I lost to it the opponent was just better than me and would beat me with almost anything. If they DO get the immortal, im not sure what the best course of action is, ive heard adepts mentioned but im not gonna recommend it because I haven't tried it. Someone else will probably be better able to give advice on this part. | ||
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Mercy13
United States706 Posts
After the game I asked them what countered that composition, and they said phoenix. That doesn't seem right though, at least once there's a critical mass of cyclones... has anyone else run into this or have thoughts on what composition to shoot for if a terran goes mass cyclones? Edit: nevermind, it's disruptors : ) | ||
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Tempest
United States137 Posts
On February 24 2019 13:12 Mercy13 wrote: Diamond 2 protoss. Today I got wrecked by a Terran who went mass cyclones. If I moved out and their army was there I was kited to death. If the army was gone they would hit my expansions on the other side of the map as soon as I moved out. After the game I asked them what countered that composition, and they said phoenix. That doesn't seem right though, at least once there's a critical mass of cyclones... has anyone else run into this or have thoughts on what composition to shoot for if a terran goes mass cyclones? Edit: nevermind, it's disruptors : ) You can also try to flank with zealots so when they try to retreat youre cutting them off. That coupled with collosi works pretty well for me. | ||
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Tempest
United States137 Posts
What are the major ways to tell the difference between a 60 to 66-ish drone Hydra all-in VS a standard/macro hydra midgame into lurkers or whatever next transition is? The current issue im having is ill go double robo after storm to deal with potential lurkers, but if its the hard committed hydra multipressure I wont often get to utilize the second robo to make it worth it, and im not sure what the timings/tells to tell the difference between the two is. Ive attempted to hallucination scout to look for a lurker den a few times, but (if the hallucination doesn't get killed before scouting cause im mildly bad) im not sure what the standard timing is for it to be placed down (ive seen varied timings ranging across almost a full minute around 4200) and im not sure the best way to try to count drones when im being pressured, etc. Anybody got any tips? Mainly the theory on how to scout correctly for this? | ||
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brickrd
United States4600 Posts
On February 19 2019 00:59 Tempest wrote: Are they getting an immortal as well or just the 3gate stalker with prism all in? I play 3 gate stalker prism all in almost exclusively on ladder (I dont proxy the robo tho) and usually when I lose either they scouted my lack of expand for quite a while so knew hard aggression was coming and stopped probing or they get a great snipe on the warp prism. chronoing out 2 immortals is usually hard for me to deal with as well. Blink stalker also sometimes gives me a hard time, but I can usually hit before they have blink and 3 gate production, I think last time I lost to it the opponent was just better than me and would beat me with almost anything. If they DO get the immortal, im not sure what the best course of action is, ive heard adepts mentioned but im not gonna recommend it because I haven't tried it. Someone else will probably be better able to give advice on this part. i did mean the later version with the immortal, sorry. adepts do sound like an interesting idea though. and i appreciate the tips on defending 3gate prism as i do have trouble with that build too anyone else have good replays or VODs of top pros defending the immortal version? offensive warpin and prism micro make this stuff so intimidating to defend as you have no natural advantage | ||
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General_Winter
United States127 Posts
If I dedicate 50 games to cannon rushing random people on the ladder am I required to hate myself? Slightly more seriously, any pointers for keeping general skills in good shape and still improving macro while practicing more all in strategies? | ||
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Tempest
United States137 Posts
On February 26 2019 06:30 General_Winter wrote: I’ve never cannon rushed anyone. I don’t think I wnat that to be my main strategy, but I do think it is probably something I should know how to do. Just to be able to mix it up, to guarantee quick games when I’m short on time, and maybe as a way to return good karma to the world after getting hit with 12 pool / dts / proxy rax allins etc. If I dedicate 50 games to cannon rushing random people on the ladder am I required to hate myself? Slightly more seriously, any pointers for keeping general skills in good shape and still improving macro while practicing more all in strategies? You can practice great macro WHILE cheesing to be honest. While in diamond and master you can outright win with a cannon rush, many times in GM youll watch a streamer have to transition out of the cheese. Learning how to properly continue building back up at home while cannon rushing a zergs nat or third is good to practice. Alternatively, you can just alternate between being a cheesey dude and a macro oriented dude. One game try a proxy 3 gate, next game play standard, and alternate. Timing attack build orders are actually pretty good practice for getting crisp timings on your building placements, as in order to be successful attack everything has to be optimized very well. Hitting with chargelot all in 20 seconds later than optimal is DEFINITELY gonna be the difference between winning and losing games. Once you master that, learning how to hit an archon drop at 5:40 isn't much harder. The more you practice anything in this game, the better youll get mechanically overall. Just don't be diamond in cannon rushing and gold 2 in macro, or else youll quickly get bored once people can defend your cheese and you lose every game. | ||
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KetoWarrior
2 Posts
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ArtyK
France3078 Posts
On March 10 2019 02:23 KetoWarrior wrote: how to deal with lurkers? storm doesn't work, they insta kill the hight templars and immortals are really useless for that job. Go double robo immortal production. The usual chargelot-archon-immortal-storm works but you need a lot of immortals (8 minimum). You can also abuse their lack of mobility by moving around, forcing unburrows, and harassing expands with warp prism chargelots. | ||
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General_Winter
United States127 Posts
In this replay https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/10142850 I opened blink against a Terran who was eventually going for mech, but he opened with a reaper and it was a real nuisance until I had two stalkers out. Reaper shows up in my base at 2:45 and just causes me a headache and kills a lot of probes, until I have two stalkers and can come at it from both sides. Q1: How do I handle this? How to control my stalkers? How to control my probes? Should my building placement be different? That's my main question. Once I got to the mid game, my army control and macro despite being bad, were a lot better than my opponent's, so I basically had his number. And once he move commanded his main army into my stalkers the game was really in the bag. That said, I would also appreciate any hints or tips on my stalker usage, army control or macro that you think would be helpful. Thanks everyone. | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands545 Posts
I just don't feel like I have any good options to defend against them. They are so cheap and expendable that even if I do kill ~4 while suffering minimal losses it doesn't really feel like a victory. | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia3543 Posts
On March 24 2019 07:50 the p00n wrote: Master 3 random, I'm having a really hard time against hellions. They always seem to get in either by a medivac or just riding in. I've tried walling with limited success. I just don't feel like I have any good options to defend against them. They are so cheap and expendable that even if I do kill ~4 while suffering minimal losses it doesn't really feel like a victory. Well the first step is to know it's coming in the first place by scouting whether the factory has a reactor with your adept (easier to do on the maps where a reaper wall is possible, making it easier to send that first adept across). Now that you can't make cyclones from a reactor, it's safe to always go for a wall off at the natural if you scout a reactor factory. IMO, adding a shield battery that heals your unit at the wall and the some of the probes is a nice, safer option too cos sometimes the terran will keep the reaper alive and go for the grenade to dislodge your stalker from the wall and it can snowball real quick. If you opened SG, you can use your first SG unit to look for the standard proxy starport locations, otherwise a neutral position with the stalkers and a well placed spotter pylon can work. There is a marine drop hellion build too so that's also something you have to keep in mind, but in that case their starport won't be proxied. Proxy hellion drop is a damn strong build that is harder to defend than to execute, but if you do sense it coming and hold it off well, it's a pretty decent advantage because it delays a lot of the trendy units atm, e.g. the raven. (technically they can put a tech lab on the proxy after the drop and go raven/cloaked banshee, but it's pretty uncommon and risky). The normal hellion runby isn't as committal and yeah it can be an insta-gg but there's no reason why you shouldn't scout it and react accordingly. There are other builds ofc that involve 1-2 hellions and they can be a bit annoyingly cos of how fast they hit but it really comes down to positioning of your units for the super early run-bys (and sometimes a bit of luck) | ||
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brickrd
United States4600 Posts
On March 24 2019 05:20 General_Winter wrote: Does anyone have any guidance on how to handle early reaper aggression from T? In this replay https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/10142850 I opened blink against a Terran who was eventually going for mech, but he opened with a reaper and it was a real nuisance until I had two stalkers out. Reaper shows up in my base at 2:45 and just causes me a headache and kills a lot of probes, until I have two stalkers and can come at it from both sides. Q1: How do I handle this? How to control my stalkers? How to control my probes? Should my building placement be different? That's my main question. 2:45 is a normal sounding reaper so you're definitely overthinking something here. step 1 is know where the reaper cliffs are. optionally step 2 is block the cliff with your first pylon and gate/core. if you don't block the cliff just build your gateway at your nexus. always chrono your stalker, and if you didn't cliff wall always rally it into or near the main mineral line. usually if you go gate nexus core stalker, which is standard, the timing works out so it's a little bit safer to keep probes in the main until 17 or 18 on minerals. this depends on map and how well you can predict your opponent's angles, but if you're feeling unsafe you can just wait until you have two units before you put probes in the natural and then put one unit in each mineral line the other geniusbrain solution if you really hate reapers and feel like you're bad against them is to just open adept. terran generally doesn't have to be afraid of losing a reaper to one stalker unless he screws up or dives for a scout, but an adept is far more threatening due to the shade ability. he might still go full tryhard probe harass mode, but he can't be as confident about it against an adept, whereas badly positioned stalkers are juicy meat for reaper tryhards basically, sometimes terrans just do the Thing where they spend 900 apm finding harass angles, and if you are lazy or out of position you will lose probes, even if you feel you're too high level to lose probes. this isn't really a build issue, and i doubt it's really about your micro either because microing against reapers is just common sense. run damaged probes and block access to mineral lines, that's all there is to it. it really is more about just having your shit in position and respecting the potential of the reaper as a unit edit: when i wrote this i mistakenly referred to gate core nexus as standard when i meant gate nexus core, they're obviously both normal builds but i meant to refer to nexus before core. my bad | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands545 Posts
On March 24 2019 10:17 blooblooblahblah wrote: Well the first step is to know it's coming in the first place by scouting whether the factory has a reactor with your adept (easier to do on the maps where a reaper wall is possible, making it easier to send that first adept across). Now that you can't make cyclones from a reactor, it's safe to always go for a wall off at the natural if you scout a reactor factory. IMO, adding a shield battery that heals your unit at the wall and the some of the probes is a nice, safer option too cos sometimes the terran will keep the reaper alive and go for the grenade to dislodge your stalker from the wall and it can snowball real quick. If you opened SG, you can use your first SG unit to look for the standard proxy starport locations, otherwise a neutral position with the stalkers and a well placed spotter pylon can work. There is a marine drop hellion build too so that's also something you have to keep in mind, but in that case their starport won't be proxied. Proxy hellion drop is a damn strong build that is harder to defend than to execute, but if you do sense it coming and hold it off well, it's a pretty decent advantage because it delays a lot of the trendy units atm, e.g. the raven. (technically they can put a tech lab on the proxy after the drop and go raven/cloaked banshee, but it's pretty uncommon and risky). The normal hellion runby isn't as committal and yeah it can be an insta-gg but there's no reason why you shouldn't scout it and react accordingly. There are other builds ofc that involve 1-2 hellions and they can be a bit annoyingly cos of how fast they hit but it really comes down to positioning of your units for the super early run-bys (and sometimes a bit of luck) Thanks for the advice. I actually saw a relevant video just now in my feed, and I feel like it highlights the problem pretty well: So throughout this game you can see P constantly fending off hellions (i.e. the drop @8:39), then at 9:00 some get in anyway and even though there were units there they still manage to get in some damage and then at 10:09 the hellions get in and do an insane amount of damage. Whenever I'm playing vs. T it just feels like he bukakkes me with hellions until he gets some in and barely pays for it. | ||
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brickrd
United States4600 Posts
On March 24 2019 18:37 the p00n wrote: Thanks for the advice. I actually saw a relevant video just now in my feed, and I feel like it highlights the problem pretty well: https://youtu.be/j5Ww8POHwmM So throughout this game you can see P constantly fending off hellions (i.e. the drop @8:39), then at 9:00 some get in anyway and even though there were units there they still manage to get in some damage and then at 10:09 the hellions get in and do an insane amount of damage. Whenever I'm playing vs. T it just feels like he bukakkes me with hellions until he gets some in and barely pays for it. you have to specify that you mean mech players dumping hellions in the midgame or people will assume you mean hellion openers into bio which is a lot more standard, i don't think anyone imagined you meant timings like 8-10 minutes mech players do this with hellions because there's not much else to do with their minerals. yes, there is always potential for massive damage, and i too have lost games against horrible mech players because they desperately right clicked hellions into all my bases while massing liberators and shit like that, but it's not broken, just annoying. so if we're talking about the midgame then you have a lot of options. the best thing you can do unfortunately is just work on your map vision (spread zealots, observers, etc) and minimap awareness so the hellions aren't already in the mineral line by the time you react. i know that's a "gitgud" answer but it's just the truth, you have to know where his shit is. other options include: -wall the fuck out of everything, use the pylons gates and cannons you're building anyway to create massive walls protecting your outer bases from runbys -if you expect him to drop them repeatedly there's no reason you can't make 2-4 phoenix, but most mech terrans i play just run them around the sides of the map instead of dropping -obvious, but remember to seriously micro your probes, because if you let them clump and line up against blue flame your losses are going to go from 5 probes to 20 every time. it's tricky, but there are a few standard moves like selecting one probe and suiciding it to mess up the spread of his flame shot, or in dicier situations selecting like 3-5 probes and body blocking the mineral line by attacking the hellions so the rest can escape. if you're a fancy pants you can also throw down temporary buildings in your gas line to block, but it's really hard to time it right and still remember to cancel the building, so try at your own risk  -if you're against a turtle mech terran and you're not doing anything with your ground army at the moment then always keep it very very close to one of your important mineral lines, just absurdly conservatively close. as long as you scout and have map vision you should be good to reposition if there's a real push. -if you know hellions are about to hit an empty probe line and you absolutely cannot stop it just recall or run the probes instead of always thinking you have to cover everything -remember that mech players who do this shit are usually buying time to turtle, so in many cases you can recover even from really bad probe losses just by triple or quadruple chronoing out some more. be greedy whenever you can | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands545 Posts
On March 24 2019 23:06 brickrd wrote: you have to specify that you mean mech players dumping hellions in the midgame or people will assume you mean hellion openers into bio which is a lot more standard, i don't think anyone imagined you meant timings like 8-10 minutes mech players do this with hellions because there's not much else to do with their minerals. yes, there is always potential for massive damage, and i too have lost games against horrible mech players because they desperately right clicked hellions into all my bases while massing liberators and shit like that, but it's not broken, just annoying. so if we're talking about the midgame then you have a lot of options. the best thing you can do unfortunately is just work on your map vision (spread zealots, observers, etc) and minimap awareness so the hellions aren't already in the mineral line by the time you react. i know that's a "gitgud" answer but it's just the truth, you have to know where his shit is. other options include: -wall the fuck out of everything, use the pylons gates and cannons you're building anyway to create massive walls protecting your outer bases from runbys -if you expect him to drop them repeatedly there's no reason you can't make 2-4 phoenix, but most mech terrans i play just run them around the sides of the map instead of dropping -obvious, but remember to seriously micro your probes, because if you let them clump and line up against blue flame your losses are going to go from 5 probes to 20 every time. it's tricky, but there are a few standard moves like selecting one probe and suiciding it to mess up the spread of his flame shot, or in dicier situations selecting like 3-5 probes and body blocking the mineral line by attacking the hellions so the rest can escape. if you're a fancy pants you can also throw down temporary buildings in your gas line to block, but it's really hard to time it right and still remember to cancel the building, so try at your own risk -if you're against a turtle mech terran and you're not doing anything with your ground army at the moment then always keep it very very close to one of your important mineral lines, just absurdly conservatively close. as long as you scout and have map vision you should be good to reposition if there's a real push. -if you know hellions are about to hit an empty probe line and you absolutely cannot stop it just recall or run the probes instead of always thinking you have to cover everything -remember that mech players who do this shit are usually buying time to turtle, so in many cases you can recover even from really bad probe losses just by triple or quadruple chronoing out some more. be greedy whenever you can Thanks man. Yeah I suppose it's not 'broken' but it feels like that haha. Hellion has probably been my most disliked unit since sc2's inception | ||
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insitelol
776 Posts
My honest opinion is that walling against terran may backlash you hard in certain scenarios. Terran just can go mass bio and destroy all your production for free. So you just lose your game right there. And overall hellions do not need any kind of counter. It's all an overreaction. Just put a single SB per mineral line preemtively (when your natural probe count is around 12 ). Defend with 3-4 stalkers per line. SB is such an obvious solution i dunno what to add. It cockblocks banshees, marine drops and hellions. Too good not to be used. (low/mid masters experience). With SB in the mineral line you are pretty much safe even against 4 hellion runbys. Just make sure to focus fire one of them when they approach. Makes it much harder for terran to do significant damage with 3 or less. Overall, i just feel that hellions only work on unprepared players and is the worst possible opening for terran who seeks to do early damage, marine/mine drops could be much more deadlier. | ||
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General_Winter
United States127 Posts
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