EPTThe LotV Terran Help Me Thread - Page 8
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Jer99
Canada8157 Posts
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terran4lyfe
United States72 Posts
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
 !How how how?! I cannot micro fast enough to secure a forward position when attacking, so I'll just defend and drop waiting for my enemy to die. How do you guys do it ? | ||
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Thaniri
1264 Posts
Mass liberator is actually quite good vs ultralisks, but the tech switch capability of zerg makes it a dumb strategy. If you want to use ghosts you'll have to just bite the bullet and accept that it's super hard to do. Do mines get reduced damage vs ultralisk armour? I have heard some people getting reasonable hits off of 5+ mines. | ||
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Bojas
Netherlands2397 Posts
Make sure your tanks/liberators are deployed correctly. Make sure your ghosts are in the back, but not too far so that they can snipe from their maximum range. Use rapid fire and shift to line snipes up. And then the last step: pray the Zerg is dumb enough to attack into you. Also, don't make too many ghosts. Like max. 8 I think. Otherwise you'll end up not spending all their energy making them just very expensive bio units. I'm not entirely sure yet if it's worth it to use cloak. In most cases I'd say yes. Once snipes are queued, split your bio or target fire infestors with your tanks, basically proceed like you would in a regular TvZ fight. When you go on the offensive, you can't do any of the above steps before the fight starts, you'll have to do them during the fight or when the fight is about to start which is impossibly hard. So I'd recommend turtling a bit while keeping the Zerg down on bases using drops, it's incredibly hard for them to take and defend 5th and 6th bases on most maps, so exploit the hell out of that weakness. Once they're starved for economy you can try engaging. Engaging into them offensively is hardly doable unless you're a top level Korean, or maybe when there's no creep. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
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Elentos
55511 Posts
On December 09 2015 06:54 MockHamill wrote: I am impressed that people still try to play bio vs Zerg. The late game seems close to impossible. At least with Mech if you get to the late game the game is more or less won if they go Ultralisk. Thor/Liberator/Hellbat deals really well with Ultra. Well, mech generally never lives to the late game. Plus BL+viper is a free win for Zerg against mech. | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On December 09 2015 06:12 SC2Toastie wrote: Taking engagements versus Ultra/Infestor/Whatever is completely fucking impossible. So much micro to be done instantaneouisly, and the Ghost are clunky and unreliable if they run the risk of taking a single hit at all !How how how?! I cannot micro fast enough to secure a forward position when attacking, so I'll just defend and drop waiting for my enemy to die. How do you guys do it ? Make a huge concave. It's something that not enough terrans do, and spend time doing, but it helps your engagements immensely. If you are always prepared in some kind of vague concave formation to where you know the zerg army is (if you are not, it's honestly worth it to simply run away and lose little), you should have enough spare APM to stim, siege liberators, queue up snipes from the ghosts that are behind the army, and then pull back sections of your arc. I cannot overemphasize the importance of a concave in every engagement against zerg. It's perhaps more important than it ever has been. On December 09 2015 03:41 Thaniri wrote: Practice on Griffiths arcade map Marine Split Challenge. Marine splitting is the hard part, not using your tanks. 1) pay attention to their army position 2) when they go in to attack run your bio back 3) press your tank hotkey and shift click a few baneling clumps 4) start splitting bio/macroing I like Morrow's Marine Control map better. You have to fight lings, and do a combination of splitting (only necessary splitting) and kiting, so it trains you in efficient micro techniques that don't lose DPS much better than Griffith's map or a general micro trainer. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On December 09 2015 06:12 SC2Toastie wrote: Taking engagements versus Ultra/Infestor/Whatever is completely fucking impossible. So much micro to be done instantaneouisly, and the Ghost are clunky and unreliable if they run the risk of taking a single hit at all !How how how?! I cannot micro fast enough to secure a forward position when attacking, so I'll just defend and drop waiting for my enemy to die. How do you guys do it ? On December 09 2015 06:18 Thaniri wrote: The main strategy to deal with ultralisks is to attack with everything you've got by the time the hive starts. Mass liberator is actually quite good vs ultralisks, but the tech switch capability of zerg makes it a dumb strategy. If you want to use ghosts you'll have to just bite the bullet and accept that it's super hard to do. Do mines get reduced damage vs ultralisk armour? I have heard some people getting reasonable hits off of 5+ mines. On December 09 2015 07:01 Elentos wrote: Well, mech generally never lives to the late game. Plus BL+viper is a free win for Zerg against mech. Bio has always needed air support (i.e., Medivacs), but now in TvZ and TvP Bio also requires Liberators in order to be truly effective in the later stages of the game. If you find yourself on Bio, without mass Liberator, and a bunch of fully upgraded Ultras pop, you're basically just dead. You actually need some sort of high-burst damage support to deal with Ultras (e.g., Tanks, Mines, Ghosts, Liberators, etc ...) But if you have a bunch of Liberators, you have to use tactics to bait the Zerg into bad engagements. It's true that mech deals with Ultras (i.e., Mass 3/3 Thor), but going Mech versus Zerg is super risky because of how impossibly hard it is to deal with a banked up 8-basing Zerg with infinite lava. Then, if you make it through the non-all-in all-inm you have to deal with brutal late game tech switches. But don't beat yourself up too hard - I'm pretty sure it's accepted that Zerg is OP in TvZ right now. It's winnable thanks to the match-making system, but not versus an equally skilled opponent. And in any case, it feels like they need to make at least one game-ending bad mistake. Maybe a little bit hyperbolic, but not much. | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
On December 09 2015 06:12 SC2Toastie wrote: Taking engagements versus Ultra/Infestor/Whatever is completely fucking impossible. So much micro to be done instantaneouisly, and the Ghost are clunky and unreliable if they run the risk of taking a single hit at all !How how how?! I cannot micro fast enough to secure a forward position when attacking, so I'll just defend and drop waiting for my enemy to die. How do you guys do it ? With m&m&tanks? People finally need to realize that you can't spam m&m vs zerg and expect to win when they hard counter you. I mean ultras & infestors are literally the hardest counter to m&m I can think off. When I play Terran [mid masters level] I always late game transition to tanks + liberators + hellbats for "tanking" and some thors (for no reason, they're just a cool unit), it shreds ultras even below their upgrade level (I actually stop upgrading m&m beyond 1/1 in zvz and start teching the above from that point on, just use marines for drops all over the map until they die, sim city a lot at expansions and always make them fortresses so ling runbies don't do much damage and the ultras die to pathing issues) | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On December 09 2015 06:12 SC2Toastie wrote: Ultra/Corruptor/Viper much more potent than infestors late-game. You still do Bio (Marauder heavy) liberator mine with ghosts. The libs and mine give you time to set up ghosts.Taking engagements versus Ultra/Infestor/Whatever is completely fucking impossible. So much micro to be done instantaneouisly, and the Ghost are clunky and unreliable if they run the risk of taking a single hit at all !How how how?! I cannot micro fast enough to secure a forward position when attacking, so I'll just defend and drop waiting for my enemy to die. How do you guys do it ? You want to be the one taking engagements against Ultra+support. I hear noobs in Adopt a Newb group talk about "taking engagements" and meaning they've wandered onto the map with matched armies and zerg is attacking. That's the lost fight. Period. Have your libs already set up with attack circles on mines and your bio denying expansions based on the area your libs control. Then as you scan the Zerg army when they make your move you engage. New lib circles, new mine movement, snipes, kite Zerg through lib/mine. Refill units and set up your new engage area. Watch any Polt lategame TvZ and he'll do this. Ideally you already have PFs on mining bases so any circumvention involving Ultras will allow you time to save the base and anything less than that cannot kill the PF. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On December 09 2015 11:41 heishe wrote: With m&m&tanks? People finally need to realize that you can't spam m&m vs zerg and expect to win when they hard counter you. I mean ultras & infestors are literally the hardest counter to m&m I can think off. I play with a BioMine army vs MLB or BioTank vs Roachvager until Hive. I then switch to 2 Techlab Factories and get Thors (I really feel like 2/3/4 Thors make the engagements A LOT easier because your bio can hide behind them and they buy you a few seconds) and get Ghost. I'll add a couple of Liberators (3/4) for zoning but I feel like they are too unreliable and immobile to use versus Zerg. The issue comes when Zerg properly attacks and uses infestors/Mutalisk to deny Snipes. That is when all falls apart and I instantly lose everything I have. I don't know what the current range on Snipe is, but I feel like adding 2 range to it would massively increase the reliability and usability. As for now, I'll keep the Drops going and I even drop a Nuke or two in long matches because it causes Zergs to massively overreact in detection, and I've already got all tech in place anyways. Play defensive and choke him out. | ||
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Aquila-
516 Posts
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
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Thaniri
1264 Posts
There are some builds here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/499803-have-some-builds and more builds will come soontm | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
On December 11 2015 14:59 Thaniri wrote: Mass bio expands havn't worked since HoTS There are some builds here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/499803-have-some-builds and more builds will come soontm fml. The hilarious thing is my P win rate is like half my T win rate over 30+ games on each. x[ | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15919 Posts
On December 11 2015 03:56 Aquila- wrote: So TvP on maps like Ulrena, I need a wall vs adept so I make 2 depots and in the center a bunker, protoss makes fast msc and 2 stalkers and picks off the depots. I have marines in the bunker but they are out of range and I dont have enough to fight his units outside of the bunker. So I need wall but cant wall, is there any solution? repair until you have enough units. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On December 11 2015 03:56 Aquila- wrote: So TvP on maps like Ulrena, I need a wall vs adept so I make 2 depots and in the center a bunker, protoss makes fast msc and 2 stalkers and picks off the depots. I have marines in the bunker but they are out of range and I dont have enough to fight his units outside of the bunker. So I need wall but cant wall, is there any solution? Notice that 2 Adept pressure costs the Protoss 50 gas, Stalkers and MSC is 200 gas committed. You can afford to waste some minerals on repairs to hold his pressure, whilst he leaves his base open to assaults and delays his tech. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
Actually, in early game, a single cyclone is awesome versus : - one gate unit alone - one air unit alone - one MSC alone - a zealot + a stalker or an adept - a zealot + a MSC It's ok against : - one adept + one MSC - one stalker + one adept - two adepts - a zealot and a phenix - a zealot and an oracle - an adept and a phenix - an adept and an oracle It's straight up bad against : - two stalkers - two oracles It's terrible against : - a gate unit and an immortal - a phenix and a stalker - two phenixes | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
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That's actually a build I used frequently myself and doesn't detract from my previous assertion. Liberator harass is all well and good (and I fully endorse it), but against a core ling baneling muta army, unless you are already a better player, or get an advantage from the early game (do damage or defend an allin or timing), every liberator made would be better served making a siege tank or other factory units. 
