• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 20:40
CEST 02:40
KST 09:40
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed15Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension3Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7
StarCraft 2
General
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed Who will win EWC 2025? RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Server Blocker
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion Soulkey Muta Micro Map? [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues 2025 ACS Season 2 Qualifier Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches CSL Xiamen International Invitational
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread We are Ready to Testify: Emergence Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 593 users

[G] TvP Recommended Mech Build for the Learner

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10329 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-01 06:06:51
May 13 2015 08:20 GMT
#1
Finally done with the semester recently. Time to make stuff. I'll make mech guides (QQ will anyone even find these useful anymore?), blog about weaboo stuff, blog about girl and life stuff, and cosplay stuff, etc. Will update whenever. May have left out things so ask questions.

Onto a favorite!


If you want to do gas first reactor hellion expand keep reading. Alternatively you can use 15 gas reactor marine, 12 gas reaper, 12 rax expand (lol), gas first into 1/1/1 marine widow mine or marine hellion drop, or even CC first, and then jump to the ***. All openers are different but they end up at the same midgame.

If you wanna do the strelok, open with 12 rax reaper or 15 gas reactor marine. They're the two most solid macro builds. Other openers are fine but increase the risk of being behind early, and getting an early advantage is not crucial to this build since this midgame attack is already so strong and all you need to do is defend and macro to that point. But I will cover the gas first reactor hellion expand anyway, since it is fun, and a good opener for for mech in general!

This is a variation of gas first hellion opener (without pulling guys off gas). If you do something like that and do widow mine drops, it's not very different. More tech but delayed economy, but that tech and harass potential can keep protoss at home for you to get a fast 2nd and 3rd CC to compensate.

About the build

+ Show Spoiler +
Grab early map control
Gets up fast tech <-- very important, allows much quicker production of units to secure more econ
Only slightly later CC compared to 12 rax
Since this is my first TvP mech guide, I will talk briefly about the midgame and talks about a good solid easy strategy that promotes good learning as well as playing games with low stress, that works well into top levels of play, and thus go beyond just the opener.

10 depot (at mineral line or ramp, depends on map / number of spawns / your build / pick your poison)
11 gas
13 rax (help finish wall or keep it back to hide tech/addons)
Note: may have to cut a scv for a few seconds to get 13 rax, that's fine, unless you build the depot at the mineral line and/or mineral boosted
factory
@100% barracks: build a marine when minerals allow. Cancel marine if probe has not entered base already. If the marine can finish by the time factory is at about 40%, then you can finish it to deal with probes/pylons. If you put a depot at the ramp you can wall off probes from entering.
Factory
Reactor at barracks, then switch to factory, and pull guys off gas
Build CC and double hellion production as minerals allow

If you built your first depot at the main ramp and want to hide your tech, then build the second and third depots when minerals allow. Note that if (like on a 2 player map) you do not wish to die to early gate shenanigans, the depots have to start at the wall at 3:30 at the latest or you will not be able to finish it fast enough to repair.


Early Game

+ Show Spoiler +
Hellions:

Variation of gas first reactor hellion. Same thing, but stop getting gas after 150. Throw down CC and make 4 hellions as normal. Good on 4 player maps, because your first two hellions can scout their position. Try to stay out of their range so they don't notice. Then all 4 hellions can combine together for the poke/sacrifice/scout.

An even exchange would be killing 4-5 probes with the 4 hellions. Killing 6-8 is significantly a bigger deal. Because resource mining lost due to probe loss exponential increases per probe.

Protoss can rebound. Here's the general rule: hurt them a second time after they've already been hurt, and that will cause very significant damage. Such as continuing to make 4 more hellions and killing as few as 4 probes at their natural.


What to build while you're doing hellion stuff:

CC management:

You're going to be on two base soon.
If it's a good map (like 3 starting locations, rotational symmetry, you can take a hidden 3rd at the corner. It only takes about a minute of you sending a few MULEs there for it to break even. It will easily pay off and if he finds it it will only mean his army is somewhere not attacking your real bases, and not defending his own bases.

You can also just build the 3 CC at home.

***
Production management:

Once you have added at least your 2nd CC,

There are two options

1) Go into 1/1/1, marine tank medivac, and then add two more factories to finish right when you have enough gas income to produce out of all 3 factories at once
-Very solid composition
-Marines are very good if the third is open and/or you want/need bunkers to help defend. 2-3 bunkers of your 8-12 marines is very very good at holding any 2 base push. Try not to make more than 16 marines.
-If he opened an air opener, and you didn't make any vikings, you can make vikings too to deal with oracle/phoenix or possible all-in including voids.
-Can get a raven early for detection and PDD to defend early busts, and buffers against stalker blink harass or early straight up stalker colossus attacks
-Allows you to deviate away from this build strategy of "macro and attack". On maps like sejong or overgrowth, you can do a marine/tank timing with bunkers to siege his natural. You can poke him or commit to this and play however you like after that, or do a slightly delayed macro push (if you don't mess up the marine tank attack of course).

2) Slowly add the 2nd factory, and 3rd factory then starport or starport then 3rd factory
-Not as flexible
-Can be good if for example you want lots of hellions (like if it's an open or big map and he opened greedily with low threat of attacking you)
-Weak against protoss mixups of air early on
-Can't get a raven early


Defending Early Aggression

+ Show Spoiler +
Two main things to worry about:

1) He attacks with zealot stalker msc:
Sneak hellions out of depot, when the stalker should be there poking at your depot cus it arrives early. Force him to recall or lose probes or cut probes and waste 300 minerals making a pylon wall. Meanwhile stall for WMs to defend. If needed, put a bunker up behind the wall at your main ramp (if you made one). Make it far back enough so the stalker at the ramp can't always be attacking the scv. To delay the stalker(s) you can also alternate scvs to repair the front, which works surprisingly well.

2)Oracle attack:
Should be able to scout this early on. He gets 2 gas and later nexus (instead of 4:00) or earlier). Make 2 WMs after the 4 hellions. Run scvs around if you need to; he can't focus all his attention on chase micro cus he's dealing with your hellions. The WMs should be able to come out on time. Be on top of your early macro. 1 second late on the WMs can be gg.


Midgame

+ Show Spoiler +
Midgame plan:

Your goal is to attack on three bases and hit protoss at about the 15-16 minute mark. A standard goto composition if you're doubtful or can't scout well is 10-12 tanks, 40 hellbats, 3-4 ghosts (a few EMPs), 6-8 medivac/vikings. If you went 1/1/1 (recommended), you will also have a raven and banshee. Due to the way the numbers work out, going 1/1/1 will give you a stronger and more well rounded army due to added air support. Move out at about 160 supply (assuming you didn't lose stuff), and you will hit at about 175-185 (depending on how good a job protoss does in delaying your push).

Remember the limiting factor is your hellbats. The golden rule is that you must have at the very least the same amount of chargelots in hellbats.

Midgame production:

By midgame, you have 3 factories, 1 starport.(reactored)
Two options here: 2 reactors and 1 tech lab on factory, or 2 tech lab and 1 reactor

How do you know which? 2 reactors for a more flexible and aggressive attack capability. Hellbats are your limiting factor in attacking early on, not tanks. Tanks just protect hellbats from being kited infinitely. You only need about 6 tanks. 6 tanks 25-35 hellbats. Consider this if the map is extremely open but you want to attack. Hellbats allow more flexible engagements and more forgiving exchanges if taken off guard.

For a more solid way, that allows you to push as well as get a large tank count into the late game, 2 tech lab 1 reactor. You should have enough hellbats just make sure not to cut them. You shouldn't be able to produce 2 tanks continuously until you take your third or if you're still stuck on two bases a long time anyway. Make some hellbats from the TL'd factories too.

About the starport. Medivacs or vikings? If he's going colossus, get vikings. If he's not going AOE or is going for HTs, get medivacs. Reason? You need splash to deal with hellbats. Medivac hellbat tank crushes gateway immortal (and the few archons they might morph to defend) in straight up fights.



The next phase is adding that 4th factory and then another rax and ghost academy for ghosts. You can also alternatively make ghosts off one rax for now and just build academy then the 4th factory if you may need the EMPs earlier. 4th factory and 2nd rax + academy is easier to macro though and sets you up and ready for ghost production later. If you are doing the academy and 2 rax: build the academy and 2nd rax at 13:00. Gas will be tight, build it no earlier, and no later.

Midgame defense:

Use hellions to see his army periodically. Put one sensor tower to defend your third and if possible also cover your natural. If you are masters or below just put another sensor tower in your main as well to scout drops. If you might get dropped and suffer significant damage in even 5% of games it is not worth it to skip the sensor tower. If you may mess up and let him drop you it is not worth it to skimp. Whereever your towers don't efficiently cover, put a couple turrets to zone out warp prisms.

If you see his army move out, send 4-6 hellions and kill at least 4-6 probes. You should really do this to keep him in check and force him to be making canons. You might kill 10+. If he built 2 canons at each base then you should still be able to kill 4-6 probes especially with blue flame, and that's 4-6 canons of minerals gone for him anyway.

Keep your army sieged in between your bases, make sure to cover the natural and prioritize it over your third if the map is really hard to defend both. The sensor tower should give you enough time though to defend both. Keep your vikings to stop drops in your main, until at least you get the sensor tower up in your main.

If he's doing a stalker colossus bust or zealot immortal bust, just cut SCVs and spam Ebay walls before the fight. Even if they only reach 5-10% done.

You should have your third mining at 12 minutes ish at the latest. The exception to this is if the protoss is of course not starting a third either, in which case you could keep waiting. But on a reasonable map, and especially if you have marines, you should be able to take your base at the 12-14 minute mark even if protoss is doing a 2 base all-in. Alternatively you can mine with your third and use it mainly for MULEing and mining gas, and don't spread your army thin to cover it, but just lift it off if Protoss comes.

When you're moving out, if you are masters or below you can risk rallying all units to attack and hope he doesn't drop you and hurt you much. If you want to be safer, rally units at home and move out in groups. A few hellbats is enough to fend things off as more units pop out.


The Attack

+ Show Spoiler +
While you're doing the attack, you will confirm his army composition and he should be adding on his second tech but not have that much of it (colossus and introducing HTs for example or colossus and adding voids).

This will let you know whether to make more factories or more starports. Making a 5th factory is always safe but you don't *have* to. Feel free to go up to a total of 4 fact 3 starport, or 5 fact and 2 starport. Add banshees to punish lack of anti air.
If he's still making some stalkers and you're not sensing he will add air, if the map is good for ground (lots of chokes for example), then go to 7 factories. Also while you're attacking you should put your 4th CC down. Try to build the 4th CC and the additional production buildings at the same time so you can focus on your army.


While you're moving out you must understand your army is very superior to his. In a straight up fight you will win. He may go stalker colossus and kite you, so be sure to know when you're ready to commit. His army will be weak though so that's fine, just keep rallying hellions in. If he goes anything else he can't really kite you.

Before you move out it's important to have your positioning already set. Don't try to get an ideal siege up with hellbats covering the angle protoss is coming from. It's pointless, your army is already much stronger, and up even into KR GM the biggest way you will lose is either from a bad engagement (caught from unprotected angle), hellbats stuck between tanks, or a counterattack/drop. If you survived this long without the protoss making favorable exchanges, you are in a very good position right now.

What you do is mix your army together so you have hellbats in between tanks, and make sure hellbats are not stuck in lets say a circle of tanks. If you have medivacs you can also load up some hellbats and drop them over their army, or to send them back to help stop a drop. It will also conceal your true army size.

Then a click. And watch your friggin army, seriously. Know when to macro and when to watch. Decide your rally then don't look at your base again unless you confirm his army positioning and see it's sort of far, then you can look at your base for a few seconds to build that 4th CC or something.

When to siege:

There are two sets of rules of when to siege or if it's too late to siege. It comes down to if he has colossus or not. Note the following range measurements means the distance between the front of your two armies (distance between).

If he has colossus, and he is at 6 range, it's not too late to siege. If he's closer then that you're sorta screwed either way, siege if there's lots of stalkers. If you have lots of hellbats and vikings then maybe you don't need to siege.

If he doesn't have colossus, do not siege if he is within 6 range. If he is 6-7 range it makes no real difference. If it is 7-9 range that's better to siege. Note these rules of thumb is taking only into account the effectiveness of the battle. Consider also whether if he's just trying to make you siege to stall. Is your army big enough without needing to siege at all due to him being behind early on? I tested this out a lot in unit tester using realistic army sizes and compositions from both sides.

Move quickly, but once you hit slightly past midway through the map, now you can take it slow. If his army is staying close to yours and is intimidating, then siege up a few tanks while you move forward. So if he engages you can walk back to those tanks and then siege the rest, then a click so the hellbats go into battle. If you make it slightly past midway through the map without trouble be patient for you are in a great great position.

Micro:

The first priority is to ensure your hellbats protect your tanks from chargelots. If you have not enough hellbats you must target chargelots. Splash is a huge threat but you will die if otherwise anyway. This is an ugly situation, just make sure you have enough hellbats to begin with.

If he has gateway colossus: vikings target colossus, emp immortals, target immortals with tanks. But remember if your hellbats need help then just target the colossus first. Ignore stalkers.

If he has immortal archon chargelot: tanks will probably need to target archons unless you have looots of hellbats and will have enough to last. If that's true then target immortals, even if they still have shields. Ignore stalkers.

Once an engagement happens be sure you have those reinforcing hellbats coming in. Or you may lose all your tanks to the big zealot warp in / drop if you lost your vikings. If the fight happened at the third and you're sieged you can stay sieged. If you're a bit far after the fight then kill the nexus in unsieged position; it's much safer on attack and retreat, unless you have enough medivacs to pick up some tanks.

Well done you should have won the game by now, if not transition into late game and play what you want.


Note on hotkeys

+ Show Spoiler +
I use 1 for everything ground. This way ghosts are selected and you can EMP/snipe. Ghosts and hellbats also serve similar function, needing to be at the front. I use another for hellions to be harassing, or if it's time to fight all are hellbats and I use 2 to control hellbats (move them back to your army if the protoss army is kiting you too far for tanks to shoot. Then send them out when the protoss army gets close to hellbats again, like 6-9 range). Exception for not bringing hellbats back is if you're at his third and sieging it up, then you could let your hellbats force protoss to keep kiting so he's in his natural and far away. You could also use this hotkey for the medivacs if you are loading up your hellbats. Either way I suggest having 1 hotkey for hellion/hellbats, and not more than that. Additional hotkeys may be more worth it but will be harder to adapt and use correctly across different kinds of games and across each MU, 1 for everything hellion/hellbat related is enough. Be careful of chargelot warpins and low immortal counts though. I use another hotkey for tanks so you can siege them ASAP. No fumbling or selecting the wrong units. Then finally one to control viking/banshee/raven together.


Closing and Closing Thanks

Now do this until you can macro decently and start familiarizing yourself with mech compositions and how to react and push, to build a strong foundation of how to mech in general. Do this until masters or desired goal. Congratulations Shinji!

See I thought I would make this humorously short but I ended up typing a lot. Tricking myself to type allows me to make stuff instead of procrastinating and being afraid of getting addicted and sinking in a lot of time for a potentially 30k+ word guide.



Sorry no replays for now. Look up Strelok's games if you wish, from 2012-2013 ish in TvP. He did this. Supernova does similar too on ladder. Thank you to all TvP mechers, especially strelok and supernova who have provided valuable resources and allowed me to have so much fun studying them.

Thank you all mechers who supported me and visited my stream and made it fun for me to study and play mech, special thanks to my most dedicated Antifusion. Thank you TLStrat for being a great family. Thanks to Chris for being an awesome guy, thanks to Thaniri for being a silly but legit guy, thanks to Zeromus for being like a father, thanks to m for being well cultured in weeaboism, thanks to Telecom for his recent interest in weeabooism, thanks to Jehak for the live advice on girls, and others. Thanks to Jeremy for letting me call you jem and for recruiting jehak. Thanks to wax for letting me stay in tlstrat even though I do nothing. Thanks to Teotita for giving me girl help too. Thanks to whoever the fuck is still reading this why are you still reading this?

May add weeaboo pictures later on cus there's no pictures in this.


If you want to support me. Visit my channel at twitch.com/yoshikirishima. I do free coaching. I've coached many people before. Let me coach you cus I like helping and I'm really fucking bored sometimes. Or just ask me for questions.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Jehak
Profile Joined March 2015
Canada16 Posts
May 13 2015 09:24 GMT
#2
if i see this on ladder, i swear to god yoshi
Wanna know something Jehak? Winners are the ones who choose their future. Question is, what are you?
TelecoM
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States10671 Posts
May 13 2015 15:14 GMT
#3
thanks to Telecom for his recent interest in weeabooism


5/5 blog.
AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
May 13 2015 22:21 GMT
#4
Moved to strat
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10329 Posts
May 13 2015 22:38 GMT
#5
Edit: Added thanks to Teotita
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Dvriel
Profile Joined November 2011
607 Posts
May 14 2015 12:21 GMT
#6
This BO can be seen in one of the DAy9 VODs. He talked about the Streloks TvP. Your BO is not complete. You dont need to put SCVs off gas after the Factory. You must build Starport and Medivac and 2 Widos Mines. No matter if your 4 Hellion do damage or not, you must drop the 2 WM and 4 Marines in Protoss Main. This way you keep the enemy home defending, while you go for 2 CC more in main and your tech.

This into 5 Factories and 3 Starports maybe with Ghosts as well give you all the tech you need to go Mech in TvP being able to defend everything and response to their tech switch. I will add replays later.
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10329 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-14 13:07:07
May 14 2015 13:04 GMT
#7
That's a fine build too, but the focus of this build is not to worry about trying to get an early game advantage by harassing (which regardless of whether it's worth or not has a risk of setting you behind due to failure to scout a certain Protoss response or due to mismicro'ing, etc.), and learning that gas hellion into widow mine drop build wasn't one of the main builds I recommended because that takes more learning, where as macro'ing and defending until the midgame is enough for a very powerful mech push.

However I highlighted the gas first reactor hellion expand because it's not difficult to learn, and the macro is nearly identical to the common 12 reaper and 15 gas builds, except for the beginning. Also because it's a fun build that I wanted to suggest as an alternative to the 12 reaper and 15 gas builds, which almost everyone knows about or can look up information elsewhere. Also due to a number of things that can happen due to doing gas first hellion into WM drop into double CC can result in delayed factories, which may make you miss the golden timing of 15-16 minutes. Basically to be able to do that build and try to hit the same timing requires a lot more experience and learning, whereas being able to simply macro and defend and hit a midgame timing is already more than enough to get you into Korean GM.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
JanLui
Profile Joined November 2010
France50 Posts
May 15 2015 15:46 GMT
#8
Nice ! Hellions have always been my favorite opening vs P

your opener has a quick 2nd factory (is that a mistake ?) that reminds me stimmedprobe 2 factory cheese !!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/281115-stimmedprobes-tvx-gas-first-2-fact-cheese

regarding the opener : there are many build order variations to get fast hellions, listed bellow from the most agressive builds (2 factories early, one with reactor) to the most economy focused. (i wont talk about those including early starport)

- stimmedprobe's : 9 gas ! 10 depot 13 rax 16 facto facto reactor OC (and cut after 250 gas mined)
- 10 depot 10 gas 13rax 17 facto OC facto reactor (and cut after 250 gas mined)

- 10 depot 11 gas 13 rax facto reactor (and take ONE scv away from gas) OC depot depot 2hellions & 2nd facto (lines up perfectly) (and remove remaining scv from gas)

- my favorite one : 11 gas 13 rax facto reactor and cut gas. My trick : send the scv which is building the factory back to mining gas, that allows you to gather 50 gas to produce 2 mines as 3rd production cycle. (build CC after 2 first hellions are started)

feedback appreciated
Never Die Easy. http://www.sc2ranks.com/eu/312602/JanLui
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15928 Posts
May 15 2015 18:37 GMT
#9
Isn't mech kind of dead in tvp since the pdd nerf?
Before the patch i played mech with great success at master level but now i have the feeling the protoss just autowins the game once he has a good number of tempests.
There just doesn't seem to be a counter to that unit. Pdd doesn't work anymore and anything else gets outranged which means the tempests can just siege them from a distance and then disengage once I want to engage.
How do you deal with tempests?
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10329 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-17 07:41:07
May 17 2015 07:40 GMT
#10
On May 16 2015 00:46 JanLui wrote:
Nice ! Hellions have always been my favorite opening vs P

your opener has a quick 2nd factory (is that a mistake ?) that reminds me stimmedprobe 2 factory cheese !!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/281115-stimmedprobes-tvx-gas-first-2-fact-cheese

regarding the opener : there are many build order variations to get fast hellions, listed bellow from the most agressive builds (2 factories early, one with reactor) to the most economy focused. (i wont talk about those including early starport)

- stimmedprobe's : 9 gas ! 10 depot 13 rax 16 facto facto reactor OC (and cut after 250 gas mined)
- 10 depot 10 gas 13rax 17 facto OC facto reactor (and cut after 250 gas mined)

- 10 depot 11 gas 13 rax facto reactor (and take ONE scv away from gas) OC depot depot 2hellions & 2nd facto (lines up perfectly) (and remove remaining scv from gas)

- my favorite one : 11 gas 13 rax facto reactor and cut gas. My trick : send the scv which is building the factory back to mining gas, that allows you to gather 50 gas to produce 2 mines as 3rd production cycle. (build CC after 2 first hellions are started)

feedback appreciated


I love hellions too! <3
I don't see where the mistake is, but it's very possible I did make one. If you could point out where I'd appreciate it X)

I really like your favorite variation as well, to get the 2 mines out very quickly. It's a nice mixup and makes you much safer while only slightly delaying your CC more.

On May 16 2015 03:37 Charoisaur wrote:
Isn't mech kind of dead in tvp since the pdd nerf?
Before the patch i played mech with great success at master level but now i have the feeling the protoss just autowins the game once he has a good number of tempests.
There just doesn't seem to be a counter to that unit. Pdd doesn't work anymore and anything else gets outranged which means the tempests can just siege them from a distance and then disengage once I want to engage.
How do you deal with tempests?


Take my opinion as you will as the large majority won't speak highly of mech. I do not think mech is ever truly dead; it may have some problems but any style or composition does. But I do not think the PDD nerf significantly weakens mech in TvP. PDDs are really useful not because of the duration, but because of how how shots they absorb and how important each shot is. If you have a decent composition and some ravens, you should have enough PDDs to allow you to move across the map and start threatening him and force him to engage with his tempests. The previously longer duration of PDDs was nice as it could help cover your escape route in case things go wrong (absorb a few shots here and there) but in return, tempests are now not as strong against BCs. This makes terran's lategame much stronger than before, and overall more than compensates for the PDD nerf.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Dvriel
Profile Joined November 2011
607 Posts
May 17 2015 08:12 GMT
#11
On May 16 2015 03:37 Charoisaur wrote:
Isn't mech kind of dead in tvp since the pdd nerf?
Before the patch i played mech with great success at master level but now i have the feeling the protoss just autowins the game once he has a good number of tempests.
There just doesn't seem to be a counter to that unit. Pdd doesn't work anymore and anything else gets outranged which means the tempests can just siege them from a distance and then disengage once I want to engage.
How do you deal with tempests?


Hi. I am high diamond player with 80% win with this build. You need to be aware of the Protoss switch tech. If they dont attack you and you scan few stalkers and collosi, scan their main for air transition. You need 3-4 Starports. 3 with tl and one-two reactor. Vikings non stop and ravens. Anyways it dapends of their unit composition. You may need lot of widos mines with their upgrade. Tempest cant kill mines quickly, so they burrow under them. Vikings, pdd and EMP will kill them. If there are lotbof zealots, stalkers or HTs, you need lot of hellions as well focusing ground units.
New Pdd still work. 20 secs is not much, but is almost double the time battles last in SC2...
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 9h 20m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
JuggernautJason154
Livibee 107
Nina 78
CosmosSc2 62
RuFF_SC2 44
Dota 2
monkeys_forever1116
NeuroSwarm140
canceldota76
League of Legends
Trikslyr79
Super Smash Bros
AZ_Axe146
Other Games
tarik_tv22630
summit1g14100
shahzam599
C9.Mang0200
ViBE167
Skadoodle128
PPMD40
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1516
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 66
• davetesta34
• sitaska34
• RyuSc2 25
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21674
League of Legends
• TFBlade646
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
9h 20m
Epic.LAN
11h 20m
CSO Contender
16h 20m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 9h
Online Event
1d 15h
Esports World Cup
3 days
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Esports World Cup
4 days
Esports World Cup
5 days
Esports World Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

BSL 2v2 Season 3
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
Championship of Russia 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.