• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 18:22
CEST 00:22
KST 07:22
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed14Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension3Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Who will win EWC 2025? Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion Help: rep cant save
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches CSL Xiamen International Invitational [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Summer Games Done Quick 2025!
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 706 users

[G] The Mass Oracle/Chargelot PvT

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Normal
Tharkun
Profile Joined December 2010
France43 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-11 15:30:31
February 06 2014 20:42 GMT
#1
Since its introduction in the game, the oracle has mostly been seen as a harass unit, and was designed as such by Blizzard when they released HotS (since they felt toss did not have enough harass potential).

However, the oracle can be used in numbers as the core of your army in midgame PvT, to make a devastating push with chargelots support.
This guide shows you how to make this push at 10:30 with 6 oracles and a dozen of +1 chargelots, while transitionning to a chargelot/archon/HT late game.

[image loading]
This is how it looks.


BUILD ORDER

9 Pylon
13 Gateway
14 Gas
16 Pylon
18 Cybernetics Core
18 Second Gas
20 Pylon
@100% Cybernetics Core : Stalker (chronoboost)
@150 Gas : Stargate
@400 Minerals : Nexus - send probe out to scout
@100% Stargate : Oracle (chronoboost)
@100% Oracle : 2nd Oracle then Forge + Gateway + 1 Gas at natural
@100% Forge : +1 Armor
@7:30 : Twilight Council
@100% Twilight Council : Charge (chronoboost)
@9:30 : 4 more Gates (up to 6) and go out to build a proxy pylon
@10:30 : Warp in chargelots, gather your oracles and a-move all over him :D

The general guideline after you start your 2nd Oracle is to build Oracles constantly, and have charge ready for your push at 10:30.

Chronoboost usage : all chronoboost goes on Nexus until the Cyber Core completes. At this point, you use one on your stalker to have it up in time for a reaper on small maps.
When the stargate is up, constantly chronoboost on Oracles.
When the Twilight is up, constantly use it on Charge.
Drop any spare chronoboost on probes.


EARLY GAME

In the early game, your goal is to 1 Gate Stargate FE behind Oracle harass.
If you see an SCV scout your base early, be sure to tail it with one probe in case he tries to ebay block your natural.
The stalker will then be used to deny further SCV scout, and keep reapers from killing your probes.
As soon as you take your expansion, send a probe to scout if he has a second base.
This is important because if he doesn't, you need your oracle at home to defend aggression, as this build does not get the MSCore ! If he expanded, go harass his mineral line and see what you can do.
Do not lose the oracle ! You need it later for the big push.
Remember your basics of oracle harass :
- Oracle 2-shots workers and marines
- You can take out 5 marines with a single oracle, but you will die to 6
- If he has a turret up, give up your harass unless you have prolevel micro, and take whatever scouting information you can find instead


MID GAME

The goal here is to build up to 6 oracles, get charge, +1 armor and 6 gates, to set up for a big push on his nat, while building your economy and defending potential aggression.
In this phase of the game, you don't want to get any more units than you need to, because it would delay your push.
So, play the zerg style : position a scout at the Xel Naga or in the middle of the map, and build only what is necessary to hold whatever is coming.

As your gates are on the way, gather your oracles, and whatever units you have (at least a stalker from early game) and set up a proxy pylon near his base.
You are ready to go but, just before attacking, prepare your transition into chargelot/archon/HT : get your 4th gas, drop the templar archives, continue to work on upgrades.

Then warp-in zealots, and go attack !
Note : if you did not warp in any units in the midgame phase, you want to wait for a second round of zealots before going, as oracles die quite fast without a meatshield.


THE PUSH

Usually, Terrans will have a handful of marine/marauders and 2 medivacs. He could be setting up for a 2 medivac stim push for example.
- If you catch him moving out in the open, this is great : a-move your army on him, and with no buildings to impede movement or attract fire, you will absolutely crush his small MMM force. Then, push your advantage by immediately attacking his nat, he won't have much to hold.
- If he is at his nat behind a bunker, focus it down (6 oracles and chargelots do the job quickly even if he repairs it). Keep your oracles away from turrets, use the zealots to kill them. You will break his nat and quite often force him to lift. If he does and turtles in his main, don't try to finish him, unless you can clearly win, because the engagement becomes far less cost efficient at this point. Contain him and work on your lead, get more gates, upgrades, a 3rd base, storm... and be wary of drops.
- If he has a wall of supply depots up, and several bunkers, then you can't attack as planned. Send your ground army home, and see what you can do with your Oracles. Try to kill the turret in his main mineral line, 6 oracles take it down pretty quickly if he doesn't react in time to repair. He will be super defensive for a while, so you can immediately take a 3rd base, a second forge, and go into a solid chargelot/archon/HT late game, while threatening him with your oracles.


TRANSITIONNING INTO THE LATE GAME

The easiest transition available is chargelot/archon/HT, as you don't even have a robo up yet. Be sure to throw down your tech before attacking, because you will be so busy microing afterwards that your transition will be poor if you don't.
You will need to get a robo eventually to add colossus to your composition as he gets ghosts, but this is straightforward PvT late game from this point on.


REACTING TO AGGRESSION

This build doesn't get you many units, and you don't have the MScore either, so it's important to react accordingly to what's coming.

Mine Drop
When you confirm that he is 1-basing, don't forget to keep your oracles at home, and get whatever units you can from your gates, but you will probably have to make do with 1 stalker, 2 zealots, and 2 oracles.
As soon as you see his medivac, try to position your oracles at his landing point. Focus the mines before they burrow, but if they do, move your oracles away and activate their detection to clean it up.

Marine Drop / Hellion runby
You will have to deal with that with few units as well. When you confirm that he is 1-basing, a good rule of thumb is to keep all your probes in the main to defend more easily. You can then kill the drop with your oracles, while the hellions have nothing to kill at the natural. Then resecure your nat when the threat to your main has been dealt with.

Cloaked Banshee
The best reaction is to use an oracle for detection, and buy time with your stalker until you get a phoenix out. The Oracle/Phoenix team will allow you to deal with banshee harassment. But at this point, you can't go on with the initial plan, because it's not great vs mech. You need a robo for immortals and reliable detection, and the MScore to help counter a potential 1/1/1 banshee/tank/marine all-ins as soon as possible.


TIPS

- When you attack, make sure that your oracles are a little behind your chargelots. You don't want the Oracles to be targetted first.
- When you move out on the map with your oracles to set up your proxy pylon, you may encounter the terran army in the middle of the map, on its way to a medivac/stim timing. Be sure to watch for it : if your Oracles are caught defenseless (without support, and their weapon not activated), you will lose them, and pretty much lose the game right there.
- When you attack, look at the army he has to defend. If he has surprisingly few units, he probably has drops on the way to your base. Let your chargelots do the job, and send your oracles home immediately to defend the drops. He will lose his natural, while you should be able to hold on to yours.
- This one goes without saying : if you mess up while trying to activate the Oracle weapon when you push, this could get ugly


REPLAYS

Here are several examples of this build in action.
I'm only master level so, please forgive me if the execution is not flawless
http://drop.sc/373382 : vs mine drop on Yeonsu
http://drop.sc/373381 : vs mine drop on Polar Night
http://drop.sc/373380 : standard game on Polar Night
http://drop.sc/373379 : another standard game on Polar Night (hope you get the idea by now)

ABOUT ME

I have been playing SC2 since the WoL beta and got quite quickly to master league.
I'm now low to mid master level.
I thought of this build while messing around with the new Oracle in the early days of the HotS beta, and I've been using it ever since to great effect, hope you do as well
0mg_t1red
Profile Joined March 2013
Russian Federation104 Posts
February 06 2014 20:48 GMT
#2
nice read thx. if not scouted can be rly strong
da_head
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada3350 Posts
February 06 2014 21:56 GMT
#3
Neat build. Ill have a look at the replays when i get home.
When they see MC Probe, all the ladies disrobe.
TylerThaCreator
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States906 Posts
February 06 2014 22:18 GMT
#4
This seems like an oddly super annoying comp..I'm interested in trying it sometime.
aka SethN
CFCryptos
Profile Joined December 2011
United States70 Posts
February 06 2014 22:27 GMT
#5
This will be what breaks the game even further ; looks soo good and sick. Me gusta ^_^
<3Spread the Love<3
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
February 06 2014 23:13 GMT
#6
I've done it. You have to hit before they reach critical mass of bio because then the Oralces just die too quickly, BUT otherwise it's pretty hilarious.
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
Azelja
Profile Joined May 2011
Japan762 Posts
February 07 2014 00:24 GMT
#7
That sounds and looks disgusting.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-07 00:28:41
February 07 2014 00:24 GMT
#8
Interesting take on Oracle busts. The cool part is that all those oracles make it trivial to defend drops while countering with your gateway army if he tries a doom drop while you push. Have you tried defending the medivac timing and then moving out on the map, rather than just attacking? It feels like you could sync a counter with the third or fourth rounds of zealots, which is actually pretty scary.

Also, do you cut probes at all? Why get only 6gates instead of 7 or 8, especially if you are looking to hit a 2base timing with a slightly delayed third? You are delaying your storm a lot with this build, how much damage do you have to do in order for it to pay off?

Finally, skipping the msc seems really unecessary. Why not do this off a fast/proxy-ish sOs oracle into nexus, or 1gate into nexus builds? Why scout so late? What do you look for with that probe scout?
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
blooblooblahblah
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia4163 Posts
February 07 2014 00:42 GMT
#9
I've done similar things on the fly and it's quite strong. However, i really think you can and should incorporate a mothership core into this build. Time warp synergies well with both zealots and oracles, and having the core in general will just make the build safer and more solid.
Ganzi beat me without stim. Ostojiy beat me with a nydus. Siphonn beat me with probes. Revival beat my sentry-immortal all-in.
igay
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Australia1178 Posts
February 07 2014 00:44 GMT
#10
ill never get sick of reading Teoita's tag
MVP <3 MKP <3 DRG <3
Tharkun
Profile Joined December 2010
France43 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-07 00:54:30
February 07 2014 00:52 GMT
#11
On February 07 2014 09:24 Teoita wrote:
Interesting take on Oracle busts. The cool part is that all those oracles make it trivial to defend drops while countering with your gateway army if he tries a doom drop while you push. Have you tried defending the medivac timing and then moving out on the map, rather than just attacking? It feels like you could sync a counter with the third or fourth rounds of zealots, which is actually pretty scary.


Actually the best case scenario is when they run into your army on the way to their attack.
It's what happens on the first replay for example. The timing of the push favors that too, because they will tend to move out precisely at that timing.
The slight problem is, as DinoMight said, that you have to hit before they get a critical mass of bio, so if they don't come, you have to go to them

On February 07 2014 09:24 Teoita wrote:
Also, do you cut probes at all? Why get only 6gates instead of 7 or 8, especially if you are looking to hit a 2base timing with a slightly delayed third? You are delaying your storm a lot with this build, how much damage do you have to do in order for it to pay off?

I never cut probes with this build until the push.
Getting a 7th gate seems a little heavy on minerals, i much prefer getting the templar archives instead with the spare gas i have and start my 4th gas. The push doesn't have to be game ending. It is designed to kill his army in a very cost efficient way, and cripple his economy. Storm is indeed delayed but you don't need it sooner because you have Oracles ! However, if you suicide your push without reducing his army significantly, the counter will kill you.
I don't feel like the push absolutely has to do much damage, as i have a high probe count, T3 on the way, and equal bases. If you see they are well prepared and don't think you can break them, it's fine to contain them and take a 3rd.

On February 07 2014 09:24 Teoita wrote:
Finally, skipping the msc seems really unecessary. Why not do this off a fast/proxy-ish sOs oracle into nexus, or 1gate into nexus builds? Why scout so late? What do you look for with that probe scout?

I agree that proxying the stargate might be a good thing, because it improves the chances of your first Oracle doing damage. On the opposite side, 1 gate nexus pretty much guarantees that your first Oracle won't do much. Nowadays, terrans seem to defend Oracle harass very well no matter what timing, so it might be a good idea to forget the harassment and focus more on the economy.
As for scouting, I feel I can get the same information (did he expand or not) with that scout timing as with a 13 gate scout. I just need to know if they are 1 basing, so I can keep my first Oracle home to defend whatever is coming, instead of sending it out.
And for the MSC... i don't seem to have enough gas to get it early, but why not get it to land a timewarp on his army with the push
Aquila-
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
516 Posts
February 07 2014 01:05 GMT
#12
What is the best response from the Terran side to this? Mass marine medivac I guess and camp until I have a critical mass of bio? What about vikings?
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
February 07 2014 02:20 GMT
#13
On February 07 2014 09:52 Tharkun wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 07 2014 09:24 Teoita wrote:
Finally, skipping the msc seems really unecessary. Why not do this off a fast/proxy-ish sOs oracle into nexus, or 1gate into nexus builds? Why scout so late? What do you look for with that probe scout?

I agree that proxying the stargate might be a good thing, because it improves the chances of your first Oracle doing damage. On the opposite side, 1 gate nexus pretty much guarantees that your first Oracle won't do much. Nowadays, terrans seem to defend Oracle harass very well no matter what timing, so it might be a good idea to forget the harassment and focus more on the economy.
As for scouting, I feel I can get the same information (did he expand or not) with that scout timing as with a 13 gate scout. I just need to know if they are 1 basing, so I can keep my first Oracle home to defend whatever is coming, instead of sending it out.
And for the MSC... i don't seem to have enough gas to get it early, but why not get it to land a timewarp on his army with the push


I think it's important to think of oracle openings as pressure builds: with minimal investment, they force out specific responses and make the Terran defend until roughly ~8:30 (one oracle + stargate is 300/300, cheapest investment in the game for what it does). For the most part, oracle openings don't normally do damage anymore, and that's fine. the real key with an oracle opening is that your opponent is forced into responding a certain way. Proxy stargate is merely a way to "catch your opponent offguard" if he tries to be too greedy and doesn't position/scout well.

DEFINITELY throw in a MSC. It's a way better investment than a stalker early on anyway.

Other than that, I really like the idea and I especially love that it's strongest right at 10:30. However, I would like to see a little more thought put into the transitions and the timings. It honestly seems as if you just blindly do this attack no matter what the Terran is doing; I would like to see some divergence points OR some deeper analysis into why this would be a reliable opening (compared to opening blink or fast warp prism/charge or templar or whatever).
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-07 02:28:53
February 07 2014 02:22 GMT
#14
On February 07 2014 10:05 Aquila- wrote:
What is the best response from the Terran side to this? Mass marine medivac I guess and camp until I have a critical mass of bio? What about vikings?

If you are expecting this then mines are good. There is no way to kill those for protoss effectively. Each mine will at least trade for a zealot + do splash + tank some damage. Also really fast ghost can counter the entire build. On the protoss side not bringing a sentry for guardian shield is a mistake, and not getting a MSC is a mistake too.
big_aug
Profile Joined April 2013
United States14 Posts
February 07 2014 06:20 GMT
#15
Why waste all that time going for two bases? Just do it off one base with half the oracles instead
Tharkun
Profile Joined December 2010
France43 Posts
February 07 2014 09:57 GMT
#16
Nice suggestions from all, will definitely try the MSC instead of the stalker, and a sentry for GS.
Tharkun
Profile Joined December 2010
France43 Posts
February 07 2014 09:59 GMT
#17
On February 07 2014 15:20 big_aug wrote:
Why waste all that time going for two bases? Just do it off one base with half the oracles instead

Not sure this is a good idea.
Terrans know how to identify a 1 basing protoss all-in and they will throw down a ton of bunkers.
This will be impossible to break with a low Oracle count.
Fhiz
Profile Joined October 2013
361 Posts
February 07 2014 17:01 GMT
#18
So the best response from terran is just widow mines and ghosts ?
girls generation make u feel da heat
-_-
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States7081 Posts
February 07 2014 19:21 GMT
#19
It works PvZ as well.
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
February 07 2014 19:28 GMT
#20
I ROFLSTOMPED my friend with this yesterday. Caught him totally off-guard and all his units just melted instantly.

Have done it before as a backup plan to a failed proxy oracle.. just got a couple of void rays and like 3 Oracles and 3 gates of Zealots. It's really funny but as OP said you have to make sure your Oracles don't get caught out of position or with the weapon disabled, otherwise its GG.
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
Tharkun
Profile Joined December 2010
France43 Posts
February 09 2014 18:44 GMT
#21
I don't know why we never see this at pro level.
It must have some critical flaw that i can't see...
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
February 09 2014 19:06 GMT
#22
You never know how the game will evolve tbh, compare this (crazy old) PvZ guide:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=300535
with http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=441482

You can definitely see the similarities, but it took years (and a full expansion) for that style to become popular.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
VTArlock
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1763 Posts
February 10 2014 21:02 GMT
#23
Seems like a great idea.

I will try this a bit later today and update with my results
Why?
Tharkun
Profile Joined December 2010
France43 Posts
February 11 2014 13:21 GMT
#24
On February 11 2014 06:02 VTArlock wrote:
Seems like a great idea.

I will try this a bit later today and update with my results

Please do, I would love to see replays from other players
Extenz
Profile Joined October 2011
Italy822 Posts
February 11 2014 19:01 GMT
#25
tried this in high master (not exactly this build order, my own but with this composition) can win many times with a mid game push of chargelot archons and 5-6 oracles it's very good
VTArlock
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1763 Posts
February 12 2014 06:17 GMT
#26
On February 11 2014 22:21 Tharkun wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2014 06:02 VTArlock wrote:
Seems like a great idea.

I will try this a bit later today and update with my results

Please do, I would love to see replays from other players


MY GOD I love this! Tried it 3 times on ladder, couple times vs some teammates. Nobody knows what to do against it without scouting it early.

I am in love.
Why?
weikor
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Austria580 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-12 08:59:24
February 12 2014 08:55 GMT
#27
Ive read some pretty silly ideas on Teamliquid, this definitely isnt one of them. I love how fast 4+ oracles can destroy addons, as well as survive with chargelot support.
The times i played around with it, i managed to easily stomp the agression, I did however not opt to attack and instead went for macro play . Using the remaining oracles to harass.
slstiles
Profile Joined May 2010
United States7 Posts
February 12 2014 19:22 GMT
#28
Trying this tonight when I get off work - I'm excited. lol
sc2bigfoot
Profile Joined February 2014
1 Post
Last Edited: 2014-02-13 02:01:22
February 13 2014 01:48 GMT
#29
I tried this build but I am having trouble against early widow mine into mech. The trouble is that I don't know when to attack when I'm getting harassed with WM drops. I can fend off the drops very well with the oracles though. Problem is, once I try to attack, they have a ton of hellbats that melt my zealots. Should I either attack early, around 9:30 and hope they don't have hellbats by then or should I transition into voidrays?

Basically, what do you do vs mech?

Edit: Actually it's pretty clear what you do in your replay vs widow mine drops. Have you ever run into problems vs mass hellbats, though?
Snake.69
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada140 Posts
February 13 2014 06:39 GMT
#30
On February 10 2014 03:44 Tharkun wrote:
I don't know why we never see this at pro level.
It must have some critical flaw that i can't see...


Its good if you can catch terran mid map or attacking you at its strongest timing. Game will snowball out of terran grasp quick.

But its bad if the terran just sits at turrets and waits for 150-160 supply, all your splash tech will be delayed and gg.

Too risky to do in a tournament since there is many pvt builds with strong timings and less weakness.
Tharkun
Profile Joined December 2010
France43 Posts
February 13 2014 09:17 GMT
#31
On February 13 2014 10:48 sc2bigfoot wrote:
I tried this build but I am having trouble against early widow mine into mech. The trouble is that I don't know when to attack when I'm getting harassed with WM drops. I can fend off the drops very well with the oracles though. Problem is, once I try to attack, they have a ton of hellbats that melt my zealots. Should I either attack early, around 9:30 and hope they don't have hellbats by then or should I transition into voidrays?

Basically, what do you do vs mech?

Edit: Actually it's pretty clear what you do in your replay vs widow mine drops. Have you ever run into problems vs mass hellbats, though?

Once the drop has been dealt with, it's important to go scout and see what he is doing, and it can be mostly 2 things :
- he goes standard MMM after his drop
- he goes full mech
You can see which one it is by the number of factories he has. More than 1 factory indicates mech play.
If you see only one factory, you can go as planned, but if he is going full mech, you need to abandon the plan, because meching players tend to turtle with bunkers, mines, hellbats, supply depot walls and turrets, all of which are very good vs what we have.
Use your existing oracles for harass and scouting but don't make any more of them.

Continue the game by following your usual anti-mech game plan. I like to throw down 2-3 robos, and expand aggressively while keeping him contained on 2 bases.
intense555
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States474 Posts
February 13 2014 22:22 GMT
#32
On February 08 2014 02:01 Fhiz wrote:
So the best response from terran is just widow mines and ghosts ?

Scout it then play defensive while massing bio mediva with good macro and you should be fine. Scouting is key to defending timings like this.
Aspiring Starcraft 2 pro for @mYinsanityEU, follow me on twitter @mYintenseSC
B-rye88
Profile Joined October 2013
Canada168 Posts
February 13 2014 22:44 GMT
#33
On February 14 2014 07:22 intense555 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 08 2014 02:01 Fhiz wrote:
So the best response from terran is just widow mines and ghosts ?

Scout it then play defensive while massing bio mediva with good macro and you should be fine. Scouting is key to defending timings like this.


*meh* I don't think bio medivac is a particularly optimal response given your opponent will have stargate tech and can easily transition into pheonix-templar or pheonix-colossus which shuts down drop play hard.

I'd rather attempt a 2 or 3 factory setup for widow mine / hellion before doing a bio transition. The initial T composition doesn't particularly need upgrades so you can go ahead and get double eng bay. You can also do really rude things to your opponents economy with hellion run-bys.

This will be an even stronger response if the proposed WM change goes through.
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
February 14 2014 01:31 GMT
#34
On February 14 2014 07:44 B-rye88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 14 2014 07:22 intense555 wrote:
On February 08 2014 02:01 Fhiz wrote:
So the best response from terran is just widow mines and ghosts ?

Scout it then play defensive while massing bio mediva with good macro and you should be fine. Scouting is key to defending timings like this.


*meh* I don't think bio medivac is a particularly optimal response given your opponent will have stargate tech and can easily transition into pheonix-templar or pheonix-colossus which shuts down drop play hard.

I'd rather attempt a 2 or 3 factory setup for widow mine / hellion before doing a bio transition. The initial T composition doesn't particularly need upgrades so you can go ahead and get double eng bay. You can also do really rude things to your opponents economy with hellion run-bys.

This will be an even stronger response if the proposed WM change goes through.


This is an extreme (perhaps almost "silly") divergence from standard play. Intense is correct by saying to keep making units and play defensively. This is what you always need to do against a 2-base timing attack like this, whether it be blink stalkers, templar/chargelot, blink/colossus, or oracle/chargelot. The response is the same. Like the others, if Terran scouts and reacts properly, they should be able to hold against this attack and secure a good position going into the late game.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Lazuras
Profile Joined November 2012
Sweden52 Posts
February 17 2014 19:56 GMT
#35
thought i would post an update

I started using this BO today, to great effect no less!
6 out of 7 games won, the game i lost was the first and we all know how it is when ur doing a new build, you get confused and cant keep up all of the time, also i flew in my oracles before my chargelots and they got obliterated without killing a single marine

the only defect in this build is that your very vulnerable to drops when you move out. but i was thinking maybe i would start leaving my MSC at home cause i find it not that usefull with my core army. (if you have done your oracle harrassment right and kept all 4-5 alive, you will have a massive army lead) i can also say that quickly getting a templar archives and +2 armour right after charge is not only viable but allows you to add 3 archons with your initial attack, thus ending the game outright in most cases (all of my games, this was the case

but does anyone have any tips for defending the drops? i think leaving MSC is the best option, maybe a cannon in each mineral line aswell?
Tharkun
Profile Joined December 2010
France43 Posts
February 17 2014 20:02 GMT
#36
If you hit your timing right and he is dropping you when you move out, then chances are most of his army is not at home.
Attack with your chargelots, and send your fast oracles back to defend the drops while buying time with the MSC.
Your attack should be successful at his natural because he won't have much to defend, and your oracles will easily dispatch the drop.
BronzeKnee
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5217 Posts
February 18 2014 05:23 GMT
#37
On February 18 2014 05:02 Tharkun wrote:
If you hit your timing right and he is dropping you when you move out, then chances are most of his army is not at home.
Attack with your chargelots, and send your fast oracles back to defend the drops while buying time with the MSC.
Your attack should be successful at his natural because he won't have much to defend, and your oracles will easily dispatch the drop.


I tried something similar today, but my opponent went for Mech and had a lot of Widow Mines.

Oh well, there is always tomorrow.
blkdynamite
Profile Joined February 2014
Canada1 Post
February 19 2014 20:11 GMT
#38
I have never tried this in a 1v1 ladder build because my main race is zerg but I absolutely love going for this composition when offracing in team games.

I'm also interested in seeing if this can become a viable PvZ strategy since blizzard is experimenting with various hydra buffs. If fast hydras become the meta for shutting down phoenix openings this would be a fun way to deal with it
n0ah
Profile Joined June 2011
United States250 Posts
February 19 2014 20:27 GMT
#39
This build is so fun! I'm only top gold currently, and it's worked more often than not for me. I don't stick to the build exactly because each game can have its variances, but when you get the right composition, it's so amazing to watch the terran army disappear like that. XD

Fun stuff! :D
If this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together
FLiP491
Profile Joined November 2010
United States124 Posts
February 20 2014 04:48 GMT
#40
Hey reporting in. I tried it, didn't work. Back to regular oracle openings for me =)

I guess in my case I should have waited for +2 armor and 1 more round of warpins, and he baited some early gas with a fake move out, but it feels too all inny for me. I don't think there's a smooth transition from an equal fight.
Tharkun
Profile Joined December 2010
France43 Posts
February 20 2014 11:28 GMT
#41
On February 20 2014 05:11 blkdynamite wrote:
I'm also interested in seeing if this can become a viable PvZ strategy since blizzard is experimenting with various hydra buffs. If fast hydras become the meta for shutting down phoenix openings this would be a fun way to deal with it

I'm pretty sure it's not going to work in PvZ simply because it's so easy for zerg to go mutalisk to counter this.
When zerg scout what's going on, and they always do eventually, they can easily hard counter the build.
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
February 20 2014 12:21 GMT
#42
On February 20 2014 20:28 Tharkun wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 20 2014 05:11 blkdynamite wrote:
I'm also interested in seeing if this can become a viable PvZ strategy since blizzard is experimenting with various hydra buffs. If fast hydras become the meta for shutting down phoenix openings this would be a fun way to deal with it

I'm pretty sure it's not going to work in PvZ simply because it's so easy for zerg to go mutalisk to counter this.
When zerg scout what's going on, and they always do eventually, they can easily hard counter the build.

You've got Stargates ready and some sick scouting information/potential yourself, as well as the ability to deny those gas bases Zerg relies on?
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-21 11:22:55
February 21 2014 11:22 GMT
#43
Opening void ray and going into charge is vulnerable enough to hydra/queen busts on lots of maps; opening oracle and doing the same thing with mass oracle is pretty much suicide.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
weikor
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Austria580 Posts
February 27 2014 04:55 GMT
#44
i'm pretty sure oracles would do better vs hydra queen busts. every oracle over a voidray is an additional zealot as well as significant dps gain. sure it's a lot more fragile but then again theoretically stimmed marines kill oracles .

vs terran i feel this is extremely strong. the 4 oracle usually pay for themselves, remember the need for army splitting as well as turrets and the damage they do.
yes the correct response is to turtle on 2 base vs an all~in. but what if he takes a third and holds your push timing (before criticAl unit count with oracle zealot , later with revelations and storm)
the
wraithcube
Profile Joined October 2012
United States2 Posts
March 14 2014 16:18 GMT
#45
Oh wow, just found this. Glad somebody wrote it up as I've been running a variation on this since the beta as well and it's been super strong (even better since the oracle speed buff since marines can't kite them). First game on here:
http://www.twitch.tv/wraithcube/c/2196357

I was going with less zealots and hitting off only 5 gates with a MSC (timewarp works amazingly with this), but rushing +2 armor before the attack and including 2-3 sentries for guardian shield+ff. The smaller unit count makes harder to defend from drops, the stronger upgrades makes up for it.

Because you are already going for a 3rd base and templar behind this, if you do significant damage with the oracles a lot of times you can skip storm and just add on archons for a 2-base chargelot/archon/oracle all-in.

If the terran seems drop heavy it's also super easy to add on 3-4 phoenixes after the push timing to defend.

As far as PvZ goes it's kinda meh. It can work, but oracles do hardly anything to roaches and while they do some damage to hydras a hydra/ling or hydra/roach mix causes the hydras to target oracles as a first priority and then your zealots get kited back. If you can get good forcefields or a zealot flank you'll do ok though. Just the tech transition is a lot slower than you'd want and it's more of a last resort type of defense or at least that's been my experience with it.
'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question
Normal
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 38m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ZombieGrub242
Nathanias 157
UpATreeSC 145
JuggernautJason86
Nina 19
Ketroc 10
ForJumy 2
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 2893
Mini 311
[sc1f]eonzerg 28
Stormgate
NightEnD6
League of Legends
Dendi1735
Counter-Strike
flusha335
oskar261
Super Smash Bros
Liquid`Ken33
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu505
Other Games
summit1g7922
tarik_tv7008
shahzam1240
C9.Mang0221
ViBE148
Skadoodle110
Livibee53
PPMD44
Trikslyr43
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2682
BasetradeTV22
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH224
• RyuSc2 49
• davetesta26
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Migwel
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki28
• Eskiya23 17
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22494
League of Legends
• TFBlade870
Other Games
• imaqtpie1937
• Scarra1510
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
1h 38m
OSC
1h 38m
Epic.LAN
13h 38m
Big Brain Bouts
17h 38m
sebesdes vs SpeCial
Harstem vs YoungYakov
GgMaChine vs uThermal
CranKy Ducklings
1d 11h
Epic.LAN
1d 13h
CSO Contender
1d 18h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 19h
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
Online Event
2 days
[ Show More ]
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Esports World Cup
4 days
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Esports World Cup
5 days
Esports World Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

JPL Season 2
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

BSL 2v2 Season 3
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Championship of Russia 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters

Upcoming

CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
K-Championship
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.