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Chargelot Archon Void Ray PvZ

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Chargelot Archon Void Ray PvZ

Text byTL Strategy
January 21st, 2014 22:27 GMT

(Wiki)Liquipedia

Contents



Introduction

Early Game
Original sOs Build
Standard double stargate build
Standard single stargate build
Naniwa's phoenix opening
Naniwa void ray build
Naniwa's DT build


Midgame
Lair-based timing attack
Mutalisk
Swarm host
Ultralisk
Passive roach/hydra/infestor/queen


Lategame


The History of Void Ray/Chargelot/Templar in PvZ
The Origin
The Early Days
Less Stargates, Faster Tech
Mid Game Attacks
The Finished Product

Additional VODs


Introduction


By: Teoita and SC2John

The void ray/templar/zealot PvZ style is the most innovative build to emerge since the release of HotS. The roots of the playstyle are found in the mass skytoss builds of the HotS beta -- and from standard play in Brood War to a lesser extent -- where focusing on templar and zealots after a stargate opening was the norm. It was first refined by Woonjing Stars Protoss players, sOs in particular, who showed just how devastating it can be in the WCS Season 1 Global Finals as he confused the best Zerg in the world, Soulkey, in their Ro4 match. The metagame has since evolved, but the core ideas remain powerful today. Along with other notable players, such as Naniwa, sOs continues to focus heavily on this unit composition and enjoy great success with it.

A flashy and deceptive style in pure sOs fashion, this can be considered the middle ground between hyper-aggressive 3base blink timings, and the methodical Colossus/Stargate builds that have been used in PvZ since 2010. Blink stalker 3base builds need to hit a powerful midgame timing or risk not scaling well enough into the endgame. Against zerg tech and production, colossus builds are powerful but slow: slow means exploitable by tech switches. The skytoss/templar style, on the other hand, can allow Protoss players to be take map control and play aggressively without needing to commit to an attack and with an extremely powerful lategame. The price to pay for this added versatility is the need to utilize greedier and/or trickier openings. This results in a third base that can sometimes be harder to defend from midgame attacks; additionally, the heavy tech investment of this style results in a lower sentry count and less energy for Hallucination scouting. You also get to feel like Bisu every time you beat someone which is pretty fucking awesome. From now on this style will be called The Bisu Build because every PvZ build with zealots templar and flying units is the Bisu Build anyway.

This guide examines every phase of the game: early game, defined as the part of the game in which the protoss player executes his favored opening; midgame, the portion of the game in which the protoss is on three bases and has to react to the zerg's decisions of either teching up to lair or hive tech or going for a lair based bust; and lategame, once the protoss tech investments fully kick in and he's free to take map control and a 4th base.


Early Game


[image loading]

Is this the Bisu Build????


This versatile style is still extremely unexplored. As a result, there is no single build, but whole family of them which accomplish the same end game goal. Nevertheless, every build shares a common structure:

  • A fast expand, much like any PvZ build. This can be either gateway FE or FFE.
  • A tech opening, most of the time stargate but dt builds can also branch into the Bisu Build. The gateway expo builds tend to open with a stargate/forge wall as opposed to 3gates and a later stargate. It is also possible to open with a fast third into tech: this style is so greedy we don't recommend it for ladder play.
  • Tech based pressure in the form of stargate or dt's. Usually the stargate produces a phoenix or oracle for scouting and light pressure before switching to void rays. Naniwa sometimes opens with three or four phoenix and heads into this style. A warpgate-pressure based opening is viable but far less common.
  • A third base as fast as possible, usually established and defended with a void ray or two and the msc. If opening gateway expand, you need a completed forge before this to sim city a cannon at your third location.
  • Void ray production can come from one to three stargates. The more stargates a player makes, the more void rays he intends to build before tech switching to zealot/archon: thus delaying his gateways, charge, and storm. Depending on the map and style, the standard numbers are one to three stargates for two to six initial void rays: more as necessary if they are needed for defense. Some Koreans like trying harassment/recall tactics with their void rays and the msc.
  • A big tech switch into 10-14 gateways. Avoid stalker production while teching to storm and templar once the third base income kicks in.
  • The possibility to hit a 3 base timing once void ray production is complete and the gateway tech is up. The 4th base is usually taken behind this move out.

As you can see, the possibilities are almost endless, and every player can put his own spin on this style. The two most known users of the Bisu Build are sOs and Naniwa, so from now on all the builds reported will be theirs.

Here are some possible build orders used successfully in televised matches:

sOs build from WCS Season 1 finals

  • FFE opening
  • Stargate as soon as Cyber Core finishes
  • Units off gateway: zealot, sentry, sentry
  • 5:40 Third and fourth gas
  • Off the initial stargate: 1x phoenix, then start void rays
  • Mothership core while the first void ray and second sentry are in production
  • 7:30-8:00 Third Nexus. This could be slighly slower if lings snipe your probe. Simcity a cannon and add a second for safety.
  • 8:45 2x stargates. Make up to 6 initial void rays.
  • 9:00 +1 shields and +1 air weapons
  • 9:35 Twilight council, charge as soon as it completes
  • 10:30-11:30 Start adding gates, going up to 4 and then 8/10
  • 11:30 Templar Archives, storm as soon as it completes
  • 12:00 +1 weapons
  • Resume void ray production, go up to 8 or 10.

Note how greedy this build is: gateway production only kicks in at around 12:30, making this build fairly susceptible to Lair busts. If you want to play greedy --and/or know your opponent will play passively -- this is a powerful variation.

Vod sOs vs Soulkey Set 1 on Whirlwind, from WCS Season 1 Finals

Double Stargate sOs standard build

  • FFE opening
  • Stargate as soon as Cyber Core finishes
  • Units off gateway: zealot, stalker, sentry
  • 6:00 Third and fourth gas
  • Off the initial stargate: One Oracle, then start void rays. Make an initial group of 4.
  • MsC as soon as the oracle completes
  • 7:30 Third nexus, second sentry off warpgate. Simcity with a cannon and 2x gates
  • 8:00 second stargate, +1 weapons
  • 8:40 Twilight council, charge as soon as it completes
  • 9:00-11:00 Begin adding gates, going up to 4 and later 8/10
  • 10:00 +1 Air weapons
  • 10:20 Templar Archives
  • Resume void ray production, go up to 8 or 10.

A good trick to learn when opening with an Oracle instead of a phoenix is to sneak around with the initial zealot to harass a queen making the oracle more effective. Keeping the oracle alive is mandatory as it's a scouting unit later: do not be greedy while harassing. Cutting the initial void ray count down to 4, and the stargate count to 2, speeds up the zealot/templar transition by about a minute. This allows you to get charge much faster; however, teching to storm against 3base allins is still very risky. It also takes longer to go up to your desired high void ray count after getting your infrastructure going.

Vod sOs vs Goswser Set 1 on Frost, from DH Winter (sOs produces void rays as soon as he scouts the 3base allin)

Single stargate sOs standard build

  • FFE opening
  • Stargate as soon as Cyber Core finishes
  • Units off gateway: zealot, sentry, sentry
  • 5:50 Third and fourth gas
  • Off the initial stargate: one phoenix, then start void rays. Initially just make two.
  • Msc as soon as the phoenix completes
  • 7:30 Third nexus, +1 weapons. Sim city with a cannon and 2x gates
  • 8:10 Twilight council, charge as soon as it completes
  • 9:20-10:00 Begin adding gates, going immediately up to 7 and later 12.
  • 9:40 Templar Archives, storm as soon as it completes
  • +2 weapons as soon as +1 is done
  • Resume void ray production after getting all your gates up, go up to 8 or 10.

This build allows you to have an extremely fast storm (~12 minutes), in exchange for a much lower void ray count in the early game and worse infrastructure: you will be staying on the one stargate for much longer. As a result, the build is much stronger against hydra/ling, slightly stronger against ultra/ling, and weaker against roach based builds and mutalisks. In general, the higher production of gateway units makes holding your third base a bit easier. Your gateway units are decidedly stronger thanks to the faster upgrades. Finally, the lower early/midgame void ray count means they are only used as a defensive unit in setting up your third and protecting against roach/ling pushes: doing any kind of void ray recall harassment is extremely hard with so few voids.

Vod sOs vs curious Set 1 on Derelict Watcher, from IEM New York

Naniwa's phoenix opening

  • Msc 15/15 gas expand. Three in gas after starting the natural Nexus and pylon.
  • Units off the gate: zealot, sentry after the nexus.
  • 4:45 Stargate at natural
  • 5:20 2extra gates, wall as necessary
  • Units off the stargate: 4x Phoenix. No void ray production until much later on.
  • 6:45 Natural gasses
  • 7:40 Forge
  • 8:30-9:00 Third nexus
  • 9:00 Twilight council, charge as soon as it completes
  • 9:45 Four gates
  • 10:15 Templar archives
  • 12:00 Take map control with your zealot archon if you know your opponent isn't going to push any time soon, tech to double stargate behind it.


Vod Naniwa vs Vortix Set 1 on Bel'Shir Vestige, from WCS EU Season 2

This game shows how to brutally hard counter ultralisk rushes with solid play. It's important to note how Naniwa remains calm against the zergling harassment, knowing that vortix's third was later than normal, his ling production implies a low drone count.

[image loading]

"Artosis, I think Vortix just got bopped"


Naniwa's void ray build

  • Msc 15/15 gas expand. Three in gas after staring the natural Nexus and pylon.
  • Units off the gate: zealot, sentry after the nexus.
  • 4:45 Stargate at natural
  • 5:20 2extra gates, wall as necessary
  • Units off the stargate: one Phoenix, then begin void ray production
  • 6:45 Natural gasses
  • 8:15 third base
  • 8:30 2x stargates, +1 air weapons. Make up to six initial void rays.
  • 10:00 Forge
  • 10:30 Twilight council, start adding gats and teching up as usual

This build is Naniwa's version of the mass void ray opening. Notice how heavily he delays gateway tech, in order to use his stargates to secure his third. Despite being safer than sOs' original build, it's still very hard to hold off any queen-based attacks; on the other hand, any timing or build including roaches should be fairly easy to stop.

Vod Naniwa vs Vortix Set 3 on Derelict Watcher, from WCS EU Season 2

Naniwa's DT build

  • Msc 15/15 gas expand. Three in gas after staring the natural Nexus and pylon.
  • 4:35 twilight council
  • 4:40 Stalker (use it to deny scouting)
  • 5:20 2x gates to wall
  • 5:30 Dark Shrine
  • 6:10 Proxy pylon. Warp in 3 zealots as soon as warpgate is done and then three dt's; you can either split them up and go for drones, or keep them together and kill a hatch.
  • 7:00 Natural gasses
  • 8:00 Forge and +1 weapons as soon as it completes
  • 8:30 2x stargates, begin void ray production. Make an initial group of four before tech switching.
  • 9:25 Start zealot Charge
  • 9:45 Third nexus. Warp in three sentries for defense and scouting.
  • 11:40 Begin adding gates, going up to eight.
  • Templar archives when you are safe (either the zerg is teching, or you hold off an attack)

The DT opening is a great complement to the standard stargate play, because dt's and void rays have surprising synergy in the early game. It's also easy to disguise your build as a gateway pressure. As with 2/3 stargate builds, you have the option to harass with the msc and void rays later on, which also gives you the ability to sneak in even more dt's.

Vod sOs vs. Soulkey Set 2 on Neo Planet S, from WCS Season 1 Finals

[image loading]

Note the DT sneaking by: Kim Taek Yong'd!


The common theme with all these builds, other than the obvious endgame composition, is the cut in void ray production to ramp up gateway tech. If you keep on making void rays, your gateways, charge, and storm will all be too late. The adjustment made in each of these builds is to hit a desired void ray count (six, four, or two unless you get attacked and need any unit possible to defend), cut production, tech up, and go up to 8/10 void rays in your endgame army after reaching storm and charge.



Midgame


When establishing your third base, you must wall off your single cannon.

Often times, zerg players will look to produce a round of lings to deny your fast third. This sim city is key in defending that pressure along with the void ray(s) and mothership core. At this point of the game, your ground army will likely consist of only three to four units which would just die to the zerglings; therefore, you need to be in position with the msc and void ray(s):

[image loading]

[image loading]

sOs defends ling pressure perfectly.


This style requires careful reactions and scouting on the protoss player's side as with most lategame-oriented PvZ builds. PvZ in HotS is a match-up of powerful hard counters and tech switches, so you always must be on top of your scouting through hallucination and stargate units. Here are the things to look for, but keep in mind that mastering this part of the game requires experience and game sense more than anything:

  • The timing on the zerg fourth. If he doesn't take one shortly after scouting your third, expect some kind of pressure to come your way in the form of a roach/hydra, hydra/ling, or hydra/queen push. This isn't necessarily all-in, so you must account for the zerg's followup as well.
  • The presence of four or six gasses has been long time scouting clue in this match-up. Six gasses usually means some kind of tech or a more passive roach/hydra; fewer gasses very likely signals an impending attack. Similarly, pay attention to your opponent's drone count and saturation: if a zerg stays around 60 drones he's looking to attack, 70 or 80 means you have more breathing room.
  • Make sure to constantly check the zerg's rally point: often this is between his natural and third. Since it's very easy for zerg players to throw down buildings wherever, simply scouting his main base isn't enough to have a solid read. Keep tabs on his gas usage. If he did some kind of opening involving hydras or roaches and is now producing exclusively zerglings, be on the lookout for a tech switch to mutas. If he keeps up with his ground army, he will more likely transition into swarm hosts or infestors. The only reliable way of scouting the zerg's exact composition is to see the first batch of units being hatched and reacting immediately.

With all this in mind, let's go over what your reactions should be against all the zerg's possible styles. This is fairly straight forward ZvP, but it's useful to keep them in mind anyway.

[image loading]

Effective scouting by sOs


Lair-based timing attack

If you scout a bust coming your way, immediately cut probe production. Depending on the branch you are following, you will need to cut your tech development and pump out whatever units you can. This means that if you did a two or three stargate opening, you need to make void rays while buying time for your gateways and charge to kick in. Do not try and reach templar. With a single stargate opening, on the other hand, you should try to get as many gateway units on the field as possible: delay extra stargates until later. In either case, warp in zealot/sentry as necessary: forcefields are key in surviving the most aggressive pushes. If they are doing a nydus-based build, try to be active with your stargate units to keep the nydus from going up too close to your base. Do not try to dual tech to templar and stargate until after holding his attack; in fact, in this situation you shouldn't even mine the gasses from your third. You will be needing the minerals for gates and zealots. This seems counter-intuitive because this style is extremely gas hungry, but it's mandatory for survival against committed attacks from the Zerg.

Mutalisk

Against mutalisk based builds, you need to make a choice on whether you want to get a good number of phoenixes, to engage in the muta/corruptor vs phoenix/void ray fight, or commit to a base-trade. The ideal scenario is when you did a stargate-heavy variation and already have several void rays alive; in this case, throw down a fleet beacon, get a healthy phoenix count up, and then use those and the void rays to zone the mutas and corruptors out. Meanwhile, you should also have a powerful zealot/archon/templar army on the ground which you can use to deny his bases: muta/ling won't be able to fight it head on thanks to your aoe and the corruptors will be a wasted investment. In a less than ideal scenarios you will just need to commit to a base-trade: if you either took some damage, took too long to read your opponent's intentions, do not have the sufficient tech in place, or simply are caught off guard and out of position. He still can't fight you head on thanks to your archons, storms and void rays, so try to eliminate his bases as quickly as possible while either making cannons at one of yours, or pulling probes to hide new buildings as necessary. This is the most likely scenario which will occur in your games; but in general, this should happen less frequently than with the colossus/phoenix/blink stalker play thanks to the early game investment in stargates and your faster third. The final, and least likely scenario, is being far enough ahead that you can predict the zerg's desperation muta switch, and catch him right before it kicks in. A great example of this situation is game 1 between sOs and Soulkey from their series during the WCS Season 1 final.

Swarm host

Swarm hosts are probably the greatest threat to this style. You desperately need colossi, but skipping a midgame robo means it will take a lot of time for that tech to kick in. Against this tech you need to buy time by moving out, harassing with zealots, and denying his bases. All this is to buy time for your robo play to kick in. Never engage straight up before you have a good number of colossi, or you catch the swarm hosts out of position. Instead, move out as soon as you are able and force him to burrow his swarm hosts. From here, swing in and attack from another angle. Keep this up until you have about three colossi, at which point your army has a better shot in a straight up fight. Take a fourth and try to stay even or ahead in economy: otherwise the Zerg will simply overpower you. This is the only situation in which teching to colossus is recommended before extreme late game.
Note that swarm hosts tend to be more popular on maps which are easier to control. On these maps, this style is also less viable: ideally you would like to have a big map where you can abuse the mobility of zealots and void rays while buying enough time for your greedy play to kick in before you can be threatened. Remember that rushing for ground based tech like swarm hosts exposes the zerg to void ray/recall harassment: if you don't see any hydralisk production move out with your skytoss units and see if you can deal damage.

Ultralisk

The Bisu Build is perhaps the most powerful macro style to deal ling/infestor/ultra. Not only do you have a great deal of tech in place to counter him, you will also have a powerful economy to respond accordingly. Furthermore, his lack of anti air makes him weak to void ray/recall maneuvers and his reliance on lings makes his army very easily killed by your zealot/archon/templar. Against this style, your greatest enemy will be the infestor. Infestors can lock down your zealots and templar before they can do damage and shut down your void rays. Make sure to be on top of your micro: prioritize feedback over storm and recall as necessary. You can play quite aggressively once you have your third base secured and fortified. Move out when your gateway production kicks in. If you can't hit a timing before around 14/15 minutes when his ultralisks come out (Naniwa vs Vortix), tech to double robo immortal and take a fourth. As usual, be on guard for any tech switch.

[image loading]

"Lol fuck" - Naniwa 30 seconds after this happened


Passive roach/hydra/infestor/queen

The greatest threat to your army is once again the infestor. As written above, stay on top of your micro and your army should come out on top of any fight: especially as the game goes on and your army becomes more gas-heavy. Be on the lookout for mutalisk switches.

Compared to colossus based builds, this build is stronger against mutas and ultras, and weaker against swarm hosts. Against lair-based busts, it really depends on how the zerg and protoss builds match up. If you went for the three stargate style and the zerg does a hydra/queen timing, on a map with an open third, defending is almost impossible. On the other hand, with perfect play it's possible to defend most roach/hydra all-ins off a failed or partially failed dt opening: Naniwa vs TLO, Naniwa vs Vortix on Star Station. If you come out ahead in the early game, and the Zerg tries to all-in you, holding on will be trivial: sOs vs Soulkey on Neo Planet S, Vortix vs Naniwa on Derelict Watcher.

Lategame



Your goal upon reaching lategame is to trade away your zealots and go for an unstoppable Void Ray/Archon/Templar/Immortal deathball. Eventually, you will always be forced to give away your low tech gateway units: zealots are better for this compared to the blink stalkers and expensive sentries used by colossus builds. Upon taking your fourth, throw down one or two robos and begin heavy warp prism harassment while using your zealots for runbys on isolated expansions. As long as the zerg player doesn't build swarm hosts, you should be able to skip colossus and rely on your storms/feedbacks as aoe to support your expensive skytoss units.

Compared to colossus/blink stalker play, this is a slightly more favorable situation against air based zerg armies featuring vipers or broodlords: you can more easily access the counters in the form of templar, void rays, and tempests. You are less favoured against swarm host play, because you need to buy time, avoid his army, and make something happen until you can switch into colossus. Adding a mothership for the cloaking field can also be useful this late in the game. Remember that against the popular “free unit” armies of swarm host/broodlord, immortals are a waste, so as usual stay on top of your scouting. At this point, you should be able to harass and pressure rather as well with any leftover phoenixes, oracles, or scout with sentries and hallucinations.

A useful tip is, when you have a huge economy, to build a very high amount of robos and stargates: about four to five of each. This makes handling any possible zerg tech switch much easier.

[image loading]

Stop this deathball, I dare you


The History of Void Ray/Chargelot/Templar in PvZ


[image loading]

[image loading]

Can you believe these are almost the same builds?


The Origin: Void Ray/Colossus Compositions

The roots of the more modern Void Ray/Chargelot/Templar style can be traced all the way back to Void Ray/Colossus compositions used in the early parts of WoL. The basic idea behind the composition was that colossus could melt everything on the ground while the void rays could clean up anything in the skies: effectively mopping the floor with any zerg army. Unfortunately, Protosses found themselves under too much pressure to reliably get this composition from roach max all-ins and more deceiving muta builds. When Broodlord/Infestor compositions became the norm, this style was officially dead in WoL. With the changes to various units brought with HotS, however, Void Ray/Colossus has seen a resurgence: Protoss players can play greedier than ever with the photon overcharge ability and rely almost entirely on their new and improved void rays to take out most aggression. While still somewhat viable, this more rigid, defensive composition has led to the developement of the more versatile Void Ray/Chargelot/Templar composition.

Void Ray/Chargelot/Templar relies on splash from the other side of the tech tree and puts a far greater emphasis on gateway units. As a result, it is a much more flexible and often times more aggressive style. From it's original conception in the early stages of HotS, it has grown tremendously in depth over the course of 2013.

The Early Days: Mass Void Rays

The very first Void Ray heavy builds emerged during the beta and in the first few weeks of HotS release. Squirtle and Creator notably employed this style heavily during the first matches in the first season of GSTL. These builds differ from modern styles because they focused extremely heavily on non-stop Stargate production, only teching to chargelot/templar very late into the game.

The very first series featuring a more modern style was sOs vs Soulkey in the WCS Season 1 Finals. These games, though unrefined compared to the games we see today, showed the solid game plan which has remained roughly unchanged since:

  • Open up economically;
  • Use void rays to secure a third;
  • Add on charge and a lot of gateways;
  • Get storm to defend versus later attacks.

In these games, sOs opted for a much later charge/templar tech switch in favor of getting lots of void rays off of three stargates. sOs took his third incredibly early off of only one void ray and his MSC while investing in +1 air attack and shield upgrades. Once he reached a solid six void rays, he cut stargate production and focused on getting a chargelot/templar composition to back up his void rays.

As with most things in Starcraft, however, this playstyle was solved. Unfortunately for sOs, it was actually solved in only one game by Soulkey. Taking advantage of the ultra defensive, mass void ray style, Soulkey went up to five bases almost instantly and began to get mass upgrades on almost no units before unleashing a massive wave of double upgraded muta/corruptor. Other zerg counters were later discovered as well: ling/hydra attacks designed to deny the third base, roach/queen/nydus attacks, hydra/infestor attacks, ling/infestor attacks, etc. Finding their void ray armies in shambles before their area of effect damage and warp gates kicked in, Protoss players were forced to find an answer.

Evolution of the Style: Less Stargates, Faster Tech

In the normal progression of playstyle evolution, Protoss players took the existing Void Ray/Chargelot/Templar playstyle and began cutting corners and getting greedier:

  • Instead of three stargates, Protoss players started making two, and eventually all the way down to one stargate;
  • Instead of the “safe” six void rays before tech, players started cutting at four, going as low as two or three initial void rays with some builds;
  • Instead of committing heavily to air and shield upgrades, Protoss players began investing into ground attack upgrades earlier and earlier;
  • Third nexus timings came earlier with fewer units used to defend it.

The immediate consequence of all this corner-cutting was faster tech in the form of zealot charge, storm, and earlier gateways: all of which allowed Protoss players to better defend the mid game timings plaguing the original playstyle. Altogether, this period is characterized by Protoss players using intelligent greed based on scouting and timings to secure a safer position in the mid game versus lair-based attacks and allowing them to step into the late game more comfortably.


More Evolution: Mid Game Attacks

The development of the newer, more refined gate expands allowed Protoss players to play more aggressively early in the game and force responses out of the zerg. Passive void ray playstyles also became more common and easier to exploit, so Protoss players decided to take a more aggressive stance in the early and middle stages of the game. Ultimately, the rise of these early pressures allowed Protoss to interrupt the Zerg economy just long enough to neutralize the power of later attacks that were plaguing the more passive playstyles.

With the ability to shut down almost all zerg scouting with scouting phoenixes and walls, Protoss began to exploit Zerg's lack of information with several attack timings. Many interesting phoenix-based attack timings and oracle openings evolved as a result. In conjunction with gate expands, several hybrid tech/warpgate pressures -- such as oracle/3-gate pressure or early DT plays -- were also developed or perfected, as is the case for the DT build. The purpose of these pressures was to allow Protoss to deal economic damage by forcing the Zerg to use larva and potentially shutting down the third base while equalizing in economy and tech. With the ability to do so, Protoss players were able to step into the mid game with slightly delayed -- but much safer -- void ray and/or twilight tech.

The Finished Product: Void Ray/Chargelot/Templar

In its final form, Void Ray/Chargelot/Templar encompasses a great many builds and styles. It's possible to open DTs, phoenixes, oracles, warpgate attacks, or even just plain void ray macro styles and still transition smoothly into this composition. It is a flexible, powerful, and versatile mid game composition when compared with its older iterations and has several points upon which different openings can converge.

Starcraft is turning wheel: the meta game shifts and slides constantly as counters, counters to counters, and even counters to those counters are discovered. As Zerg players figure out timings and progressively step into the future of ZvP, Protosses will once again have to adapt and find new ways to exploit their opponent's weaknesses. Luckily, Protoss has this time-tested composition that's likely here to stay. Happy zealoting!

Additional VODs


Vod Naniwa vs TLO Set 2 on Frost, from DH Winter

Vod Naniwa vs Leenock Set 3 on Polar Night, from DH Winter

Vod Naniwa vs Life Set 2 on Bel'Shir Vestige, from DH Winter

Vod San vs HyuN Bel'Shir Vestige, from ASUS ROG Summer

Vod San vs DRG Set 3 on Newkirk Precinct, from ASUS ROG Summer

Vod HerO vs Hyun Set 2 on Whirlwind, from IEM Shanghai

Vod Naniwa vs Hyun Set 4 on Frost, from IEM New York

Vod Naniwa vs Life Set 5 on Yeonsu, from IEM New York

Vod sOs vs Soulkey Set 2 on Neo Planet S, from WCS Season 1 Finals

Vod Naniwa vs Jaedong Set 3 on Star Station, From WCS Season 2 Finals

Vod Naniwa vs Targa Set 1 on Polar Night, from WCS EU Season 3

Vod Naniwa vs Targa Set 2 on Derelict Watcher, from WCS EU Season 3

Brought to you by the TL Strategy Team
Writer: SC2John and Teoita
Peer Review: ROOTMinigun, myRZeth
Graphics: Naganis
Liquipedia Support: NovemberStorm
Editors: Hayl_Storm and Zeromus
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Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
January 21 2014 22:38 GMT
#2
I just wanted to say that the zealot looks absolutely badass and I would love to have him at a BBQ some time
AdministratorBreak the chains
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
January 21 2014 22:40 GMT
#3
He only makes chinese food i'm afraid.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
pieroog
Profile Joined June 2010
Poland146 Posts
January 21 2014 22:43 GMT
#4
wow, every new TL's article on strategy is a gem - thank you for your work!
Rickyvalle21
Profile Joined July 2012
United States320 Posts
January 21 2014 22:47 GMT
#5
Wow thank you for so many guides. I've been doing this style for along time with great sucess. Other players that perform this style are Sage and San. Naniwa dt build was actually inspired by Sages build but he does it with ffe. Sages build goes 1 gate expo>3 gate dt forge>3rd nexus> triple stargate.
people say practice is perfect but if nothing is perfect whats the point in practicing?
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
January 21 2014 22:50 GMT
#6
Actually, Naniwa's DT opening was first used by sOs himself in that very series against Soulkey. We emphasized Nani's use of it because he's probably the best in the world at that style.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
SpunXtain20
Profile Joined January 2014
Australia554 Posts
January 21 2014 23:19 GMT
#7
Thanks liquidites you're all sorts of awesome. *cuddles all*
*Hugs all* | I came here to drink milk and kick asses, and I've just finished my milk.
DifuntO
Profile Joined November 2011
Greece2376 Posts
January 21 2014 23:51 GMT
#8
Very nice guide and just when i'm about to start playing sc2 again(because of the new patch).
All I do is Stim.
General Nuke Em
Profile Joined March 2008
United States680 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-22 00:01:55
January 22 2014 00:01 GMT
#9
You also get to feel like Bisu every time you beat someone which is pretty fucking awesome. From now on this style will be called The Bisu Build because every PvZ build with zealots templar and flying units is the Bisu Build anyway.

I thought any build where you opened with a pylon was the bisu build.
Pazuzu
Profile Joined July 2011
United States632 Posts
January 22 2014 00:12 GMT
#10
does this mean that the SC2John Teoita relationship has been repaired??
"It is because intuition is sometimes right, that we don't know what to do with it"
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
January 22 2014 00:36 GMT
#11
Oh god please not, have mercy on us zergs .
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
January 22 2014 00:36 GMT
#12
On January 22 2014 09:12 Pazuzu wrote:
does this mean that the SC2John Teoita relationship has been repaired??


Somewhat.

As always guys if you have any concerns or comments for future articles don't be afraid to let us know. Either here or in a PM to me
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
Killmouse
Profile Joined August 2010
Austria5700 Posts
January 22 2014 01:08 GMT
#13
dat picture haha
yo
Pandain
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States12989 Posts
January 22 2014 01:10 GMT
#14
You guys are awesome.

KalWarkov
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Germany4126 Posts
January 22 2014 01:12 GMT
#15
you needs tons of sentrys before you get charge and ur eco at 3rd going, no chance against hydra allins otherwise
DiaBoLuS ** Sc2 - Protoss: 16x GM | Dota2 - Offlane Immortal | Wc3 - Undead decent level | Diablo nerd | Chess / Magnus fanboy | BVB | Agnostic***
magiknizm
Profile Joined April 2012
19 Posts
January 22 2014 01:19 GMT
#16
Chargelot Archon Void Ray PvZ - EzPz

◄[ SFX & VFX - Starcraft 2 - Terranizm™]►
SpunXtain20
Profile Joined January 2014
Australia554 Posts
January 22 2014 02:02 GMT
#17
TvT guide next ? Hugs
*Hugs all* | I came here to drink milk and kick asses, and I've just finished my milk.
TarLaPaN
Profile Joined June 2012
United States113 Posts
January 22 2014 02:18 GMT
#18
Kinda eerie, every time i'm struggling with a matchup TL releases a guide on it.
Midday
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada59 Posts
January 22 2014 02:29 GMT
#19
This playstyle makes me want to jump off a balcony
So, let's go!
tomastaz
Profile Joined January 2013
United States976 Posts
January 22 2014 03:09 GMT
#20
I love strategy guides!
No church in the wild --- @tzhang0126
suicideyear
Profile Joined December 2012
Ivory Coast3016 Posts
January 22 2014 03:15 GMT
#21
On January 22 2014 11:29 Midday wrote:
This playstyle makes me want to jump off a balcony

switch to toss, increase the rate of massive injuries and deaths from self-inflicted jumps in your area!
)))____◎◎◎◎█████
sluggaslamoo
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Australia4494 Posts
January 22 2014 03:31 GMT
#22
codename: Electric Fly Swat
Come play Android Netrunner - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=409008
magicturtle
Profile Joined June 2011
United States35 Posts
January 22 2014 07:29 GMT
#23
Just giving my opinion here, but this is not a 'new' or 'innovative' idea... this core idea was rather popular in WoL ... I don't understand why everybody seems to think this is some amazing breakthrough/discovery ._.
wishr
Profile Joined February 2012
Russian Federation262 Posts
January 22 2014 07:55 GMT
#24
That image lol!
Great guide!
* Only girls complain about balance! *
Heartland
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Sweden24582 Posts
January 22 2014 08:56 GMT
#25
I have learnt so much more about this now. Maybe now my failiure with this style the last few months will be repaired now.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
January 22 2014 12:22 GMT
#26
On January 22 2014 16:29 magicturtle wrote:
Just giving my opinion here, but this is not a 'new' or 'innovative' idea... this core idea was rather popular in WoL ... I don't understand why everybody seems to think this is some amazing breakthrough/discovery ._.


The wol builds were extremely different (usually done as a transition off 4gate+1 with void rays): they included way less void rays, stargates and sometimes switched to immortals faster, got completely wrecked when roach max and later infestor play became popular, weren't nearly as well planned out and most importantly were done only in a handful of televised games.

The breakthrough isn't necessarily the fact that you can make zealots, templar and void rays can work vs z, it's the fact that it can be a legit, refined go to style.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
blooblooblahblah
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia4163 Posts
January 22 2014 12:39 GMT
#27
On January 22 2014 16:29 magicturtle wrote:
Just giving my opinion here, but this is not a 'new' or 'innovative' idea... this core idea was rather popular in WoL ... I don't understand why everybody seems to think this is some amazing breakthrough/discovery ._.


Nothing even close to this was used at all in WoL. In fact, void rays were pretty much non-existant in pro PvZ until MC showed how you could use them to beat broodlord infestor, and that was very very late in WoL.
Ganzi beat me without stim. Ostojiy beat me with a nydus. Siphonn beat me with probes. Revival beat my sentry-immortal all-in.
Salient
Profile Joined August 2011
United States876 Posts
January 22 2014 13:15 GMT
#28
This style is very elegant. But it seems too difficult for sub-masters players to pull off.
samurai80
Profile Joined November 2011
Japan4225 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-22 13:20:07
January 22 2014 13:19 GMT
#29
TL Protoss guides are always so awesome. I almost feel sorry to just use them for free.
RyLai
Profile Joined May 2011
United States477 Posts
January 22 2014 13:22 GMT
#30
On January 22 2014 11:02 SpunXtain20 wrote:
TvT guide next ? Hugs


There was one a long time ago. It was ForGG's TvT build. zzzz

On another note, woo~ Protoss~... *waves white flag of resignation*
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
January 22 2014 13:33 GMT
#31
Oh regarding this style's evolution and past builds: it also changed protoss openings drammatically. Protoss eeded about 4 sentries off several warpgates, as well as a robo production obs/immortals, in order to secure a third. Nowadays you see much faster thirds off no units except for the msc and initial void ray(s).
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
January 22 2014 15:03 GMT
#32
Very fun style.
It's only viable on larger maps though I think. The biggest risk to this which the guide hardly goes into detail about are lair busts with queens. Queens are a super hard counter to voidrays, they are super strong because they have good air dps, long range, and very high health with 1 armor which makes them live super long against voidrays.
On smaller maps where queens can walk over reasonably quick a push with ~6 queens (2 rounds of 3 hatches) and +1 armor (armor is better than ranged attacked against this style for zerg because zealots, sentries and voidrays all are high attackspeed low damage units) is practically impossible to hold.

I prefer doing this style without sentries though. With oracles or phoenix your scouting is pretty much covered anyway and forcefields are ok but not that great with this style. They hamper your zealots often and they only help slightly to improve your positioning against queens/hydra's which have the same range as your voidrays anyway. I find that the gas is better saved to get charge or templars earlier, skipping sentries especially let's you get that third quicker as you can defend it with just 1 or 2 zealots, voids and your msc agianst ling attacks quite well. With sentries you require a critical mass more. Another plus of not using sentries is that you can micro your voidrays much more, they really need good micro because against roach/hydra you often want to hit the roaches because they do MUCH more dps agianst that but they will automatically hit the hydra's.

I find that swarm hosts are not really a big issue with this style by the way, if they commit to those and you are on several stargates it's not that hard to switch to air completely and mix in some carriers (which are good against hydra's actually if your attack upgrades equal his armor upgrades at least). The biggest problems definately are good pushes on your third or just solid roach/hydra play with lots of multiprongs and good kiting.
aeligos
Profile Joined January 2013
United States172 Posts
January 22 2014 15:23 GMT
#33
Here is a brilliant concept:

Build your own strategies! It's SOOO much fun!!!

User was temp banned for this post.
libera te tvtemet ex inferis A.'.A.'.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-22 15:42:51
January 22 2014 15:41 GMT
#34
I think queen busts aren't relying on rush distance per se, but rather on how easy it is to forcefield, because they often come with nydus worms. The answer to those is really perfect forcefields, not being greedy, and getting out as many units as humanly possible. That said, i havent seen a queen bust game against a 2 or 1 stargate build after an early game when the protoss (or zerg) isnt already significantly behind.

On a map like Derelict or even Whirlwind where there's a lot of open space in front of the toss base queen allins are extremely hard to hold, and in fact they are the big reason why players have started to really slow down their double teching and focusing either on void rays or gateway tech to defend. On more closed off maps like Frost they aren't nearly as scary.

Sentry count really depends on the situation. Against lair busts you need emergency sentries to defend, but if the z is teching you want to get your voids and storm up instead. Regardless, you need 1-2 sentries for scouting because once significant AA is up, you can't rely on stargate units for scouting.

edit: also against sh the only answer is colossi, switching to carriers or tempest without any ground army isn't viable because you dont have anything to kill the locusts.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
igay
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Australia1178 Posts
January 22 2014 19:47 GMT
#35
great work as always!
MVP <3 MKP <3 DRG <3
ThePlagueJG
Profile Joined May 2013
Sweden1010 Posts
January 22 2014 21:22 GMT
#36
I might not play protoss, but this guide would have been amazing if I did! Great work!
ThorZaIN | NaNiwa | SaSe | PartinG | sOs | Jaedong | sOs restored passion!
EpicDemente
Profile Joined November 2012
Chile202 Posts
January 22 2014 22:00 GMT
#37
MOAR STRATEGY GUIDES TL!
"Fight your heart out for what you want"
TheBadOmen
Profile Joined November 2011
Canada182 Posts
January 22 2014 23:12 GMT
#38
Thanks ! These guides are amazing, they motivate me to ladder
MavivaM
Profile Joined November 2011
1535 Posts
January 23 2014 13:42 GMT
#39
On January 22 2014 11:29 Midday wrote:
This playstyle makes me want to jump off a balcony

Completely agree since as a Zerg not only I'm quite clueless in my worst matchup, but also because this guide even teaches you reactive moves, which should be a Zerg prerogative imo, at least in this matchup.

Well, it's not like I was going to improve my winrate T_T
I hope one day a Zerg will step up and teach me some cool swarmhost timings.

But seriously, nice write up. I wonder if I'll be able to make some use of it regardless of my race...
Your Opinion has been counted. Only 3 more Opinions needed for a reddit thread.
RageCommodore
Profile Joined September 2011
Germany912 Posts
January 23 2014 13:48 GMT
#40
I so don't want to play vs that :S Great guide tho, quality hase been steadily increasing. Almost every new strategy post is a gem on ist's on right now.
BW: sGs.sTaRfaLL SC2: MarojiN | fan of: Darkforce, DBS, Last, Mvp, BoguS/InnoVatioN | Executer vs Choosy on Gladiator - Never forget T-T
-Celestial-
Profile Joined September 2011
United Kingdom3867 Posts
January 23 2014 13:53 GMT
#41
These guides are amazing. Definitely going to try this out if and when I ever get over the damn MMR decay which is giving me a 90% winrate whatever I do.
"Protoss simultaneously feels unbeatably strong and unwinnably weak." - kcdc
Rorschach
Profile Joined May 2010
United States623 Posts
January 23 2014 15:49 GMT
#42
Really enjoying this style and I find it very challenging to execute. Lair timings on some maps give me the most trouble.

If your scouting is good I think it does OK vs swarmhost/queen/spore if you are able to harass and keep the zerg off that 5th
base gas income.

Anyone wanting to watch a streamer play this style a lot should check out Minigun's who uses it quite a bit vs zerg.
En Taro Adun, Executor!
HYRULE15
Profile Joined September 2013
Germany72 Posts
January 23 2014 21:35 GMT
#43
Dat zealot looks absolutely insane.
KillSwitch81
Profile Joined October 2012
United States4 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-24 05:43:28
January 23 2014 23:06 GMT
#44
Hello i could be wrong but i believe the game your getting naniwa's phoenix opener off of could be a poor example of the normal build as i think he usually goes into double stargate and void rays very early but this game was just simply one of many reactions as the phoenix saw double evo and mass queen build from vortix leading into ultras and an archon timing can devastate this if you hit the proper timings i think it would be good to view many of his games opening this way and seeing the way he plays out each reaction as im sure there are many little variations. i could be horribly wrong though i only wish i knew why naniwa does what he does but i hope my input can help a little <3

thank you for taking the time to make well written guides your awesome for helping the community

ya i wasnt sure either but i think i've seen the same opener into fast double voids idk what the switch is for him to choose one tech route or another but as i said i could be totally wrong, to bad pro gamers dont make guides of their builds after using them. that would be beyond amazing, and at that thanks State :D i wish more people did stuff like him and for those of you that dont know State writes amazing guides on builds http://www.gamefront.com/author/rvisbeck/
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
January 23 2014 23:12 GMT
#45
I thought the same initially, but i've seen him do the same exact build against roach hydra (vs Jaedong on Derelict Watcher i believe), so i decided to include it because it's a pretty cool builds and tbh it's hilarious how hard he bops Vortix in that game xD
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Metak
Profile Joined August 2011
296 Posts
January 23 2014 23:24 GMT
#46
This is amazing, thanks.
ElMeanYo
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1032 Posts
January 24 2014 00:04 GMT
#47
25 gas hydras are going to put an end to this build. Or at least the effectiveness of it.
“The only man who never makes mistakes is the man who never does anything.” ― Theodore Roosevelt
AnachronisticAnarchy
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States2957 Posts
January 24 2014 00:43 GMT
#48
On January 24 2014 09:04 ElMeanYo wrote:
25 gas hydras are going to put an end to this build. Or at least the effectiveness of it.

That isn't even on a test map yet. Don't act like this is going to get rolled out.
"How are you?" "I am fine, because it is not normal to scream in pain."
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
January 24 2014 08:22 GMT
#49
It would put an end to the effectiveness of every protoss build in pvz so it wont go live anyway
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
aZealot
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
New Zealand5447 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-24 09:00:12
January 24 2014 08:43 GMT
#50
Can you elaborate, Teo? I'm against it too (that gas!; those timings!) but that seems to me to be extreme from you.
KT best KT ~ 2014
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-24 09:01:41
January 24 2014 08:59 GMT
#51
They could max out on hydras at the same exact time they roach maxed us in WoL, which is just ridicolous. I don't think anything protoss can hold 200/200 roach/hydra pushing at their third at 12 minutes, while also being stable against things like muta, sh, ultra/ling, etc. Stargate openers for example will be dead, but since twilight council and robo openers were killed by the muta buff and 2base allins aren't nearly as viable as they used to be (at least not at the highest level), that leaves us with what builds exactly?

Not only that, but the gas it would save up makes the current ling/hydra>muta builds much, much stronger because the Zerg would be able to get up an additional 5-6 mutas with their first wave. This is also completely ridicolous. TLO himself said that this change would break PvZ; i haven't seen a single progamer in favour of the change.

Blizzard is touching a unit that is the core of a matchup, when that core has absolutely no issues. Hydras are a midgame unit that allows safety and flexibility for the zerg, with a high number of transitions out of them already (as opposed to wol when there were hardly any viable transitions). Changing its cost so fundamentally is unecessary, and incredibly extreme.

edit: anyway, this thread isn't to discuss patch notes so let's leave it at that.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
EnSky
Profile Joined June 2011
Philippines1003 Posts
January 24 2014 09:57 GMT
#52
Nice! Nice! more strats plzzzz.
Grixx
Profile Joined March 2013
Belgium26 Posts
January 24 2014 13:11 GMT
#53
Love this guide! Had a lot of succes on ladder and easy to adapt to
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
Xanatoss
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany539 Posts
January 25 2014 14:51 GMT
#54
Great Guide! After 3 years, this is the first PvZ Build for me that appears flexible and strong enough at the same time. Maybe my worst MU finally gets a boost.

The chair slowly turns around. You see his face, but it can't be. He's not supposed to be here. Not him. Not a Protoss. Not THAT Protoss. MC says, "Hi Greg, long time no see." You back slowly out of the booth. But you can't. It's already forcefielded.
Xanatoss
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany539 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-26 12:30:52
January 26 2014 12:29 GMT
#55
Sry for doublepost.

Some Questions:

1. Is there a reason some builds go for a single phoenix first while others get the oracle? I feel the oracle is superior in almost all aspects (harassment, forcing spores, scouting, detection, pre-lair-bust-defense).

2. If the Zerg goes 3 Hatch before Gas, I adapt by getting my third base earlier (off of 1 Zealot and MSC around 6 Minutes, before Stargate) and wall the cannone there with my Stargate and possibly Twilight later on.
I feel this is the correct response without droping the whole build but would like to hear other oppinions on that matter.

3. Is there a "ratio" for the initial HT/Void/Chargelot - Composition? I feel that Zealots become less effective the more I get. Same goes with HT for Storm. This statement feels especially strong when my opponent leans towards hydras almost exclusively.

4. Is there a better trigger to start Robo/ Immortal-Production than "After I started my 4th Base"? Whats the reason against double Robo?

5. If I went for the variant with single Stargate and my opponent intends to rush Mutas with lots of Speedlings for Mapcontrol (especially on Habitation Station), how likely is it to break him with pure Zealot/Archon (and the initial 2 Voids) before his Mutas pop?
The chair slowly turns around. You see his face, but it can't be. He's not supposed to be here. Not him. Not a Protoss. Not THAT Protoss. MC says, "Hi Greg, long time no see." You back slowly out of the booth. But you can't. It's already forcefielded.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-26 12:56:03
January 26 2014 12:55 GMT
#56
1) Personal preference; oracles got really popular after their last buff. The main advantage of the single phoenix is that it makes your build harder to read.

2) Dunno 3hatch before gas is really standard with FFE (which is the opening i prefer to use when doing this). I'm not sure about gateway FE, you can definitely go fast third into this but it feels so greedy i wouldn't recommend it for ladder play. If it works for you, keep doing it ofc

3) Probably 4-6 templar with storm, then you can go into archon production. Make zealots as you can afford them really. They definitely scale poorly later on in the game, which is why you have to trade them away with runbys.

4) When you need to start trading your zealots because supply counts get high would be a better trigger. Double robo is definitely viable, there is no particular reason against it other than "you need more units asap". It's another of those things that comes down to personal preference; single robo leaves you with marginally more resources for zealot harassment.

5) If he's rushing straight up to mutas i highly doubt you can punish him assuming you take your own third (two basing is a whole different beast but it's not related to this guide for the most part); you will be ready to move out around 12:00 when your storm is done and by then the mutas are already out. I feel like going with 2/3 archons and the voids isn't enough to break him; additionally, he can always make emergency roaches and crush your 130ish supply worth of zealot/archon. Muta rushes off no other tech are fairly easy to read though (compared to the crazy ass tech switches at least) so you should be able to get phoenixes and cannons up in time.
Against any other kind of tech switch, as i wrote it really depends on when you identify he's going mutas; sometimes you can hit a timing and kill the mutas and/or end up in an extremely base race situation when only a few zerg units make it to your base, other times it's harder to tell who's ahead.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
NRGsc2
Profile Joined January 2014
Hungary1 Post
January 26 2014 17:19 GMT
#57
I just switched P because of TvP and this guide helps me a lot. thanks !
"Don't stop when you get old, you get old when you stop"
The_Darkness
Profile Joined December 2011
United States910 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-27 04:37:23
January 27 2014 04:35 GMT
#58
I do a variant of this all of the time. It's very easy and effective against just about everything except for queen-infestor-ultra-upgraded ling -- oh man does that steam roll this. If you see that build you need to get out some Collossi or you will die exceedingly horribly.
To be is to be the value of a bound variable.
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
January 27 2014 05:47 GMT
#59
On January 27 2014 13:35 The_Darkness wrote:
I do a variant of this all of the time. It's very easy and effective against just about everything except for queen-infestor-ultra-upgraded ling -- oh man does that steam roll this. If you see that build you need to get out some Collossi or you will die exceedingly horribly.


Keep in mind that this is a mid game composition. The purpose of void ray/chargelot/templar is to allow you to stabilize on three bases, take a fourth comfortably, and get out additional tech. If your opponent is rushing for hive tech, it's quite easy to simply hit a pre-hive timing and outright kill your opponent. If your opponent is taking it a little more slowly, then yeah, you add on tech as necessary to deal with the various Zerg threats.

The main thing to remember is that you're shooting for 3 bases and a void ray/chargelot/templar composition in the mid game. After that, anything is possible; just make sure you're scouting, making good reads, and attacking/defending when necessary .
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-27 08:16:04
January 27 2014 08:15 GMT
#60
I think colossi are a wasted investment vs queen/ultra/ling, at least before you have a solid immortal count. You need one immortal for each ultra vs that, and making colossi just makes it impossible to get the immortals in time. Having storm and zealots (instead of stalkers which are just as useless) already up helps a TON in dealing with the lings, a whole lot more than the few colossi you can get out.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
poboxy
Profile Joined October 2009
Canada48 Posts
January 27 2014 13:11 GMT
#61
Yup, that what Protoss need now. Strategy guides.

User was warned for this post
Shinta)
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1716 Posts
January 28 2014 08:13 GMT
#62
Play like the guy who completely ruined my FPL by sucking big time? No thx....


lolol jk, love sOs and hope he starts playing better soon...
Suteki Da Ne 素敵だね Isn't it Wonderful
art_of_turtle
Profile Blog Joined September 2012
United States1185 Posts
January 28 2014 08:34 GMT
#63
Hey whoa where is the shoutout to Chef? I see Auir Chef, yet no big shout out to the original Chef, creator of The Stove. Strategy has come a long way and I demand that chef be recognized as creating a style that didn't seem very plausible but reminding us " A well-practiced bad build can always win against players who have no practice against it."-Chef
Flash should fear Sacsri
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17921 Posts
February 09 2014 10:33 GMT
#64
i remember actually doing this alot in beta for WoL

good times
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
Startyr
Profile Joined November 2011
Scotland188 Posts
February 09 2014 14:07 GMT
#65
This is a really nice guide.

I have been wondering about another variation. From that Hero vs Hyun game, the dts are scouted
and detection is prepared before the Dts can do anything so hero does an attack with 2 archons and a handful of zealots.
Instead of getting the dark shrine what about getting a templar archives and immediately getting a few archons, which can
either be used to attack, maybe plan to recall them out and/or use them to help take a third.
It does not depend so much on not being scouted and provides some more options with easier access to storm.

As Hero was up against ultra/infestor he ended up focusing more on immortals. So there is also the option of getting the robo first instead of a stargate, doing storm drops and having an immortal/archon/templar with storm army earlier than if going for Dts first.

I also noticed discussion on going up against queens, with templar archives instead of dark shrine you have access to feedback from the start of the game. Deal damage and prevent transfuse/inject/creep spread, making void rays even more powerful.

Has anyone else tried going straight for templar archives instead of dark shrine?

For templar archives and 4 High templar versus dark shrine and 4 Dark templar

150 more gas and 300 less minerals.
Templar archives takes half as long to build.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
February 09 2014 14:20 GMT
#66
I need to watch a vod. It sounds like you are suggesting skipping stargate, and opening with DT archons in order to attack. Both of those are really, really wierd choices, and generally considered sub optimal for a variety of reasons, so i really want to watch that game. You really dont care about the dt's being scouted all that much if you take a fast third tbh; in many vods linked naniwa's dt's do absolutely nothing and he still can estabilish a third confortably. In general, fast ht rush type builds dont really work because you need a lot of economy to support a stable templar-based army; rushing them in the early game means you end up with a couple of them with storm, and no support around them.

Dealing with ultras has nothing to do with your opener and yes, you should go imortals vs them.

You can't double tech vs queen/nydus busts no matter what your opening is. The problem there isn't lack of feedback vs transfuse, but the fact that queens are just great anti air units.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Xanatoss
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany539 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-24 13:13:52
February 24 2014 13:13 GMT
#67
Again, great guide! Playing this build exclusively atm and its so, so awesome.

I just rewatched sOs vs GoWser (2 SG Opening) and was wondering if the 2nd Stargate from sOs was triggered by his successful harassment instead off a pregame-choice. What do you think?

Can you guys recommend some more pro-games where this has been used in the meantime?
The chair slowly turns around. You see his face, but it can't be. He's not supposed to be here. Not him. Not a Protoss. Not THAT Protoss. MC says, "Hi Greg, long time no see." You back slowly out of the booth. But you can't. It's already forcefielded.
WaSteR
Profile Joined February 2014
United States3 Posts
February 25 2014 01:56 GMT
#68
such a baddass well organized/written guide , looking forward to using this buid style!
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
February 25 2014 08:31 GMT
#69
On February 24 2014 22:13 Xanatoss wrote:
Again, great guide! Playing this build exclusively atm and its so, so awesome.

I just rewatched sOs vs GoWser (2 SG Opening) and was wondering if the 2nd Stargate from sOs was triggered by his successful harassment instead off a pregame-choice. What do you think?

Can you guys recommend some more pro-games where this has been used in the meantime?


Hmm dunno i dont think it was a reaction. What would he react to anyway? That build isn't something you can only do when ahead anyway.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Xanatoss
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany539 Posts
February 25 2014 16:42 GMT
#70
Well, my thought was, that after killing a lot of drones and a queen, he went for the 2nd Stargate to be safer a against a possible reactive Roach/Ling Bust. Knowing that any Lair based Timing would be weaker now and thus allowing him to get Storm later.
The chair slowly turns around. You see his face, but it can't be. He's not supposed to be here. Not him. Not a Protoss. Not THAT Protoss. MC says, "Hi Greg, long time no see." You back slowly out of the booth. But you can't. It's already forcefielded.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
February 25 2014 17:40 GMT
#71
A single stargate should be enough to hold anything without aa (ie hydras). Vs hydra timings you shouldnt rush storm (unless you do the single stargate build, but even then i'm not 100% sure and it might be better to stick with archons), but rather make void/zealot/sentry/(archons maybe) non stop. So yeah, i dont think the second stargate was reactive; it's likely a stylistic/map specific adjustment i feel.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Nutrient
Profile Joined March 2014
Chile7 Posts
March 02 2014 01:50 GMT
#72
Hello!, is this still viable with the latest hydra dps buff?
Slds!
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
March 02 2014 04:57 GMT
#73
On March 02 2014 10:50 Nutrient wrote:
Hello!, is this still viable with the latest hydra dps buff?


It's impossible to tell since the hydra buff has been out only one day -_-.

But I imagine it's still quite viable, though perhaps more precarious on smaller maps like Daedalus or Yeonsu where hydra timings are already particularly strong. The fact is that once you have AoE up, hydras are no longer really a threat.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
March 02 2014 09:59 GMT
#74
Yep. Im pretty sure it's still viable.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
WastedSunsets
Profile Joined January 2010
United States8 Posts
September 18 2014 08:42 GMT
#75
I was thinking of picking this build up, it's been a few months now, but I assume it's still perfectly as viable as it was in March?
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-09-18 09:05:05
September 18 2014 08:54 GMT
#76
Yeah. It's not really used that much anymore because people have figured out that 3base blink is in fact amazing, but if you want to try this instead you'll be fine.

One execution note that i didn't write in the guide (it didn't seem that big of a deal at the time) is that you NEED to contain creep. 3base blink does it extremely efficiently, this build a little less so. Basically your only way of doing that is keeping your oracle alive and clearing off creep with that+a few voids. This is especially important against swarm host builds (which you are already vulnerable to).
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
WastedSunsets
Profile Joined January 2010
United States8 Posts
September 18 2014 09:04 GMT
#77
Thank you.
Appelsoep
Profile Joined September 2014
Belarus18 Posts
September 18 2014 13:20 GMT
#78
nice strat, this might actually help me deal with mutas in those 4 player maps without committing to 10000 stalkers which get wrecked by anything other then mutas
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