EPTSame is happening with TvP Mech. Koreans are just playing bio,but it doesnt mean TvP mech is not viable.
[Q] Is Mech weaker then bio in TvP? - Page 4
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Dvriel
607 Posts
Same is happening with TvP Mech. Koreans are just playing bio,but it doesnt mean TvP mech is not viable. | ||
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On May 24 2013 17:29 Dvriel wrote: I was watching the Group D WCS NA last night and realised something: in TvT the Mech is better than Bio+tank. Hellions are quicker. Do splash. So mobile and are even good for defending drops. The upgrades are shared between the units(same for hellion/tank and viking). There is no "con" for mech vs bio+tank in TvT and even that the koreans Polt,Alive and Ryung give us 9 games playing only marine+tank. Why? I think because they are so used to it and its the best of their skills. They did not practice a lot with Mech and in the NA ladder Polt always plays bio+tank and always forcé Demuslim, Qxc and theognis to do the same.... Same is happening with TvP Mech. Koreans are just playing bio,but it doesnt mean TvP mech is not viable. Except Bogus trashed Flash that game that we will never mention as a good example of mech vs bio.....ever | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On May 24 2013 12:14 apeiro wrote: I don't understand why everyone wants mech to work in TvP so much. Why should every tech tree be viable in every matchup? Because not only does it mean we don't have to watch the same boring as hell games for the fourth year in a row (nothing has changed in Bio TvP at all, either the Terran wins early or gets rolled over lategame, it still happens after 3 years) and it forces Toss into only doing one or two things in the matchup rather than having more freedom. Nearly every TvP plays out the same and there's little room for either side to transition out of the standard styles into anything more interesting. There's nothing bad about having everything possible in matchups and although I'm saying mech is viable, because it is, where it isn't as strong as it could be against toss a lot of people will never bother trying it or they won't use it in tournaments as they just want to win and bio is easier to do that if you're a korean player with sick micro since it's all you've played for 3 years. Except Bogus trashed Flash that game that we will never mention as a good example of mech vs bio.....ever Well that's just what happens when you don't get air control as mech (which is what happened to Flash) as the drops kept forcing his tanks out of position. | ||
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Juice!
Belgium295 Posts
On May 24 2013 12:14 apeiro wrote: I don't understand why everyone wants mech to work in TvP so much. Why should every tech tree be viable in every matchup? Because P auto-counter bio from terran from the start of the game? At least this way you can catch them surprised a bit! =) Anyway, not talking about GM level or whatever .. but low/mid master TvP mech is viable? Yes/No? (i don't really care it's because they don't know how to react properly or because they are bad) I have no intention of getting to high master level or GM, i just want to stay in masters and enjoy the game. Can i do this with pure mech? (if not, i've been looking for some good bio builds vs P .. But seem to be failing at finding them. i remember a quick ugprade demuslim build, but where is it  the only good build i think i found, because i havn't read it yet, is this one, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=411141) | ||
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On May 24 2013 17:44 Juice! wrote: Because P auto-counter bio from terran from the start of the game? At least this way you can catch them surprised a bit! =) Anyway, not talking about GM level or whatever .. but low/mid master TvP mech is viable? Yes/No? (i don't really care it's because they don't know how to react properly or because they are bad) I have no intention of getting to high master level or GM, i just want to stay in masters and enjoy the game. Can i do this with pure mech? (if not, i've been looking for some good bio builds vs P .. But seem to be failing at finding them. i remember a quick ugprade demuslim build, but where is it the only good build i think i found, because i havn't read it yet, is this one, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=411141)If this is NA we are talking about then its definetely viable. Im not sure about EU. And no people hate Bio TvP because its boring and gimicky, not because P auto-counters bio | ||
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Juice!
Belgium295 Posts
On May 24 2013 18:24 padfoota wrote: If this is NA we are talking about then its definetely viable. Im not sure about EU. EU  It's just, I got to this (atm 400-500points master level) with only mech. reading all these threads made me think if i should start learning bio or just stick to mech since i have no desire to be pro or whatever (i just want to stay masters and have fun). But since bio and mech are sooo different to play and i'm absolutely not used to bio, it will probably make me drop and i'll lose my master . So i was wondering, just keep mech and stay low/mid(?) master or (probably drop) and go bio (in TvZ/TvP) (TvT will be mech always for me, just because i like mech ^^) | ||
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On May 24 2013 18:39 Juice! wrote: EU It's just, I got to this (atm 400-500points master level) with only mech. reading all these threads made me think if i should start learning bio or just stick to mech since i have no desire to be pro or whatever (i just want to stay masters and have fun). But since bio and mech are sooo different to play and i'm absolutely not used to bio, it will probably make me drop and i'll lose my master . So i was wondering, just keep mech and stay low/mid(?) master or (probably drop) and go bio (in TvZ/TvP) (TvT will be mech always for me, just because i like mech ^^)For me, Mech is like the 4th race. Its not easy to be good with both styles as a casual player so I stuck with bio only. If you want to stick to mech just do it. Bio has a drastically different mindset compared to mech, and will take a LONG time to get used to coming from mech. | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
On May 24 2013 08:26 Dvriel wrote: I was trying to go Mech in TvP since some 6 months ago before the HotS launch and in WoL was almost imposible.I am talking about the "tank heavy" mech,not the Thor focused mech showed by Lyyna. If you're talking about my 'troll mass thors into Thors/BC RoflBall' style, you're making a big mistake here, it was never my main style (the ghost/tank/air focused one) and my guide wasn't even talking about mass thors play since it has always been a terrible strat imo even in WoL versus decent toss (but a stupidly funny play versus bad ones). About this topic : Well, the big problem problem of that kind of topic is that it'll always be a war between a few differents kind if people : -The "Mech doesn't work, i tried it and it's terrible" : Usually a terran player who played some 1 rax nogas FE into 35 tanks camping middle map for 5 games, and thinks he can talk about TvP mech. -The "Look at pro they don't mech", itself divided into 2 categories : -"So Mech is slightly inferior/Less polished and there is no point for them to make it a mainstream strategy even if it sometimes used and may be viable in a normal game" -"So it shows they explored it fully and knows it's terrible" - which is idiot, as some people say before in this thread we could talk a bit about how TvT Mech was fully explored and considered terrible in like 3 distincts periods in WoL  -The "Lol U Noob Mech can't handle every early game play blindly, can't hardcounter every midgame composition and can't kill any lategame composition while losing less than 10 supply" - A bit exagerated, but that kind of people is seen on every "Mech TvP thread"... basically saying mech is unviable, while saying things that can apply to bio and allows to say bio is unviable as well. -The "I tried Mech hardcore and i don't think it's viable" - I have some respect for these people, the problem is that often the way they played mech is flawed in my opinion (often they stick to one mech "style" and will not try anything else). -The Mech Lover And the big problem is that all these people will just yell pointlessly at each others, never listening to anyone else, never trying to understand what others say. In order to adress what everyone say, i would like to say a few things -Mech may, or may not be viable at pro lvl. The past has shown us that "fully explored and so unviable play" was able to finally become one of the mainstream strat in a MU (hi Mech TvT and TvZ). We're not pro and it's not up to us to discuss that. Our discussions here will not make pro play mech, so all we can do here is try and watch any pro mech TvP game and try to get conclusions about how they play mech, but it's RETARDED to try and say "KOR pro fully explored it and consider it unviable" until someone do a poll with most pro terrans to ask them what they think/if they tried TP mech. We're not in their mind... -Mech is DEFINITELY viable under pro lvl. Even in High Master/GM (even High GM). Players like me, HtoMario, and tons of others show this every day, destroying protoss on the ladder with big metal balls. Is it hard? Yes. Does it requires a totally different skillset compared to bio? Totally fucking yes. Is it super hard? Yes. Is it impossible ? No. You can't say it's not possible to mech at high lvl (on the ladder i mean) while there is so much people playing mech since the beginning on WoL for some, at this lvl, and without any big trouble. -Mech may, or may not be viable as a mainstream strategy. I think it is, but it requires a tons of experience, and some people need to accept the fact thay even if in terms of raw skill/ranking/results they are superior to some "mech players" here, they aren't as qualified as these "inferior mech players" to talk about Mech. Myself, even if it might be considered as a cocky behavior, i wouldn't hesitate to argue with any pro about TvP mech, why ? Because i have nearly 3 years of Mech TvP experience, more than 2 of these being 90%+ of my games played with mech. Do i know everything about Mech? No. But i know far more that some people here who assume that because they are supposed to be "better" due to their rank on the ladder or anything like that, and these people should really realise that and think about it. Do i mean that they should accept everything the experienced mech players say as fact? No. But these people should stop thinking they have the absolute knowledge of Mech TvP, able to theorycraft from scracth every single situation that may kill mech, and stuff like this, and understand that if some people practice mech since years, their advice might be slightly better that their "superior" theorycrafting. At least their advice should be heard instead of being dismissed and answered by some "i'm better than you and i know that mech doesn't work, you play only terrible players lolololol". Is it a bit cocky to write this ? Maybe. But for me, the cocky behavior is the one used by people who thinks they are in the mind of koreans pro knowning their advices/pratice about mech TvP, and who thinks that because they are better in rank/result/reputation, what they say about something they don't know should be considered more valuable that what people experimented on the subject are saying. Mech is hard to learn. Stop thinking that because you are GM and you play pro every day, your 1 month mech practice can show you everything about mech. After 3 years of mech i don't even consider myself close of a "solid mech player"... How can some people think they saw everything about mech in a few months/weeks/games? Edit : Damn ,didn't realise i wrote so much. I would just like to add that i don't want to frighten anyone, i just want everyone to calm down and listen of each other instead of camping on their own position... and here, i talk about Mech lovers, "pro who think they master mech after 2 weeks", people who read korean's minds and know they don't think TvP mech is viable, and every other kind of people i mentioned or which is posting on these threads | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
The mech army is just to weak in a straight up fight against a toss while harass relies on your opponent playing bad and you don't really have "building killers" that are mobile. So yeah it just comes down to a death ball which is weak enough to be able to get overwhelmed if you don't have signifant lead/opponent is playing bad. Edit: But on the question of the thread, I'd most certainly say bio is stronger than mech in TvP. Ofcourse not in a straight up engagement, but you can choose your engagements better, can keep the toss on the backfoot easier and force mistakes. | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
BUT: To everyone who says it's bad because GSL Terrans don't do it. By that logic you should get 2 Roach Warrants in 30% of your games and never ever research the Zergling attackspeed and try to get baneling Speed only 4 out of 5 games. GSL players also make mistakes. GSL players also choose wrong strategies. Saw how easy Sea won against a lot of Protoss players with almost pure Tanks? He did that even in tournaments. Goody has success with it. Dragon makes it work. Terrible no-name players manage to beat good Protoss players with Mech. That all doesn't matter once you lost the third game in a row, obviously the problem is the game and not you. . . . That's the problem of our generation. . . If you want to play mech, PLAY MECH. Who is to tell YOU that it is studid? For a long time a Phoenix opening in PvZ was regarded is complete BS. Now it is 100% standard. The most important thing is always to not be discouraged easily. Mech is so different from Bio it is close to learning a new race. Of course you will get worse results for a long time but that doesn't mean it's bad. If you want to go Mech, DO IT FFS. Mayb MAYBE to win a GSL you should rather train Bio. That doesn't matter for anyone in this forum. So, you know, just do it! Or don't and get better grades and live better in a couple of years | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
So then we got mech. Imo the only reason it sometimes works is because of the toss not being used to it. When they realise their enormous mobility advantage that is much larger difference than between bio and toss deathball they should pretty much always win, unless they are way behind. And that was then also the often used WoL mech build: open with banshee harrasment. See toss panic, play horribly. Meanwhile you got map control and make your army. Small detail in HotS: banshee play heavily nerfed. Crap... Alternative I see being used in streams is mainly hellbat drops (/widow mines), toss proceed to panic and lose half their mineral line. But that won't continue forever. Especially because there is no real reason to use hellbat drops only with mech. Now at this point both from own experience, but also what I see in streams, is generally to have a way larger army and keep bashing his until it dies. Not exactly cost effective encounters, but you are ahead and while you keep bashing his army he can't use his mobility to ruin your day. And this is where you have to win the game (and hope he didn't do a tech switch into mass voids). Still didn't win? In WoL it was easy: transition into battlecruisers. The longer I stay on mech the larger my chance to lose, simply because in WoL I had around two large mech engagements I could win before the toss would realise he should make many immortals/archons. In HotS at this point I am completely at a loss. Battlecruisers get so horribly hardcountered by tempests (and improved voids, but mainly tempests). Tempests in general are for me pretty much impossible to counter (of course vikings, but I mean tempests + toss deathball. PDDs mainly extend your suffering, but still means you have to engage into his deathball). When toss realise they only need a bunch of tempests and can then better add carriers it becomes even worse. And all that is imo kinda stupid that blizzard specifically stated they wanted to boost mech vs toss, and in my opinion it is worse than in WoL. And yeah we got hellbats, regarding hellbats, in my attempts to make it work I am planning to switch to hellions instead of hellbats. I survived with them in WoL (granted without all the new toss toys), but I really think hellbats are overrated. Yes they are good against mass chargelots. But they are very vulnerably to storms, take longer to strip immortal shields, their extra HP doesn't work against archons, and they are so freaking slow. Seeker missiles are nice, but also toss is the race most resistant to them. My last game vs toss the result was me losing 4 maxed out mech armies without much I could do against his deathball. For me it is simply now either winning in midgame or losing. I don't have a lategame transition anymore. Actually considering transitioning to bio lategame, I am that desperate. But air doesn't work anymore, and when staying on mech they will transition to air and beat it. Or just make enough immortals/archons and roll over it. | ||
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Videoboysayscube
51 Posts
It depends on their composition, but I feel that most of the time you want to go hellbat heavy, with just a few tanks, and aim for a push around 130-140 supply. After this, get ghosts. You also need to scout for an air transition. If you see void production, this isn't even a problem, because you switch into widow mines. The voids won't be able to engage your army, and will either get killed or become useless. Tempest is the real problem, but you have to remember that they're slow. Even a mech army can out position them. And when you see it coming, you just throw down a ton of starports and transition into viking/raven, with those widow mines. If tempest chase you, you lay down your mines behind your army. Scan, kill observer, they can't follow, and you proceed to kill their bases. Works better on some maps than others, but that's basically the strat that I use. | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
Hellbats are cute and widowmines are handy, but this isn't Broodwar. Mech still sucks compared to bio. It's hard to even think of a Protoss unit composition that can adequately force a mech response. Practically everything can be killed with the correct balance of Marine, Marauder, Ghost, Viking, Medivac. | ||
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Gaizokubanou
United States61 Posts
On May 25 2013 04:16 dUTtrOACh wrote:Hellbats are cute and widowmines are handy, but this isn't Broodwar. Mech still sucks compared to bio. It's hard to even think of a Protoss unit composition that can adequately force a mech response. Practically everything can be killed with the correct balance of Marine, Marauder, Ghost, Viking, Medivac. Closest one I suppose is one base blink all-in. Siege tanks play critical role in defense vs that. Few hellbats could count too if you see P going chargelot heavy composition, but yeah that's not really forced. | ||
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Precise
64 Posts
On May 24 2013 01:46 gingerfluffmuff wrote: Assumption: T players in the GSL are the best of their kind. Reality: No one plays mech vs P in GSL Conclussion: Its not viable / bio is better in TvP. I guess it comes down to your seriousness with your play. Killing Ps in high GM - Bio. Killing Ps in master - doesnt matter. I think I just fell in love with your Assumption, Reality, and Conclusion ^_^ | ||
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ZerglingGM
3 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
But there are things about mass banshee/raven with spider mines that intrigues me, would be cool to see some development there. Since seeker missile is so much better now, even spending it on observers to boost spider mine efficiency seems like a good move... especially since I would win games by doing that in WOL, so that my cloaked banshees would do maximum damage. Oh, and forward proxy PFs.. why aren't meching terran building those? | ||
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mau5mat
Northern Ireland461 Posts
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cactusjack914
United States183 Posts
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apeiro
United States27 Posts
On May 24 2013 12:41 SheaR619 wrote: cause if mech is viable, then it will lead to a more diverse match up in TvP. Mech is also a distinctively different style because of how immobile it is compare to bio which SHOULD lead protoss protoss respond differently to counter this style. This will lead to a more different game. Protoss complain about not seeing carrier at all, with mech viable then carrier automatically become more viable. This is just another example and protoss will also have the option of playing a more mobile style and mass expanding abusing the immobility of mech rather then just massing death ball. How is this not good for everyone and the game itself? Dont believe me just look at TvZ. Zerg respond differently to mech by going roach heavy mainly and then when dealing with bio they go ling mutas bane. I'll expand here to give context to my previous question. There are always tech trees that each race have as their premier composition against another just because of what units the enemy can produce. For example, when Protoss is playing against Terran, they will usually not opt to go full Stargate tech. Not to say that Stargate opening is not viable when played correctly, but Stargate mid-game just has a lot of downsides against a race who produces the counter to 4/5 Stargate units out of its base building.. This is why even after HoTS, Protoss still go Robo tech transition into HT or vise versa and Terran does not produce mech. They are both playing their strengths. There is a philosophical meta-game issue here. Strategically Mech is an attempt to get supply-efficiency out of high value units in order to form an immobile deathball and attain victory through crushing your enemy in the slow push. The problem is that this is the exact description of the entire Protoss race. It is the Terran playing on the Protoss' turf, but failing because they will simply never have that supply effectiveness to rival the Protoss. Protoss has this supply efficiency built into every single unit, not just one tech tree. With this in mind, the Terran comes out victorious in this matchup because they don't try to rival the Protoss at what they are good at. They instead exploit the Protoss' racial weaknesses with high maneuverability and tactical strikes on the Protoss economy. Much the same, this is something the Protoss can never truly rival the Terran at. They could try to go for multi-prong Warp Prism harass with a Zealot/Stalker/Sentry composition, but will they ever trade efficiently against a Terran who is doing multi-prong Medivac harass with Marine/Marauder/Widow Mine composition? No; the Protoss is not the race for base racing and this is not something that could be balanced back in without completely overhauling their racial philosophy. | ||
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