EPTAlso Viking/Raven beats Toss air completely. There's no compotition, although you need good micro against carriers.
[Q] Is Mech weaker then bio in TvP? - Page 2
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Qikz
United Kingdom12056 Posts
Also Viking/Raven beats Toss air completely. There's no compotition, although you need good micro against carriers. | ||
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WeaponX.7
Canada52 Posts
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LighT.
Canada4501 Posts
it's truly not a "mech" composition. For the toss, there'a s smooth transition into the toss ball where with the robo facility, where they can crank out immortals and all, or even possibly transition to some skytoss to counter the terran mech as for the terran, in order to go mech, you still need to tech up to t3, with ghost facilties, building up ravens to counter all the units toss can throw at them. Positioning in TvP isnt as important in sc2 as it was in bw, because of the unit count and the speed of the battles. TvP is bio favored because there's more mobility, you can maximize the unit's effectiveness better | ||
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SaroVati
Canada280 Posts
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Juice!
Belgium295 Posts
Protoss players failing to adapt and having really poor answers: many of them are unwilling to unplug the anti bio play autopilot; This is kinda the only reason i still do mech TvP. I can't count the games protoss did 2base all in zealot/storm/archon, with no scout and just died to my helbat/tank/medivac. Also because of that P 'knows' T will always do bio against them they kinda "auto-counter" terran no, because of that mech is somewhat ok against them. Until they know and start reacting  | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12056 Posts
On May 24 2013 03:39 LighT. wrote: The thing with mech in TvP.. it's truly not a "mech" composition. For the toss, there'a s smooth transition into the toss ball where with the robo facility, where they can crank out immortals and all, or even possibly transition to some skytoss to counter the terran mech as for the terran, in order to go mech, you still need to tech up to t3, with ghost facilties, building up ravens to counter all the units toss can throw at them. Positioning in TvP isnt as important in sc2 as it was in bw, because of the unit count and the speed of the battles. TvP is bio favored because there's more mobility, you can maximize the unit's effectiveness better That's not true at all. Positioning is really important. If you clump your tanks in SC2, they will just get rolled over by everything. You need tank spreading and if you can get a high ground position away from the edge of the cliffs, that's a much better position than being in open ground. There's also where you have to position your mines, turrets and hellbats depending on what army composition you face as different army compositions require different positioning. Collosus based requires Hellbats to be further back so they don't get sniped and they need to be up front against Archon/Immortalk compositions. | ||
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DBS
515 Posts
On May 24 2013 01:48 Markwerf wrote: There is a reason noone uses mech in TvP. HotS was a catastrophic failure on many parts, most of all trying to get mech to work in TvP. It was basically the focus of the entire terran revamp but didn;t do anything. Early tank play can be fine and mixing in hellbats later is alright but pure mech just stinks. No mobility, no proper counter for air and just not even that great against ground. For this reason alone David Kim needs to be fired really, so much effort in the beta trying to fix this somehow but no success at all. Especially since they've shown to give up in using elegant fixes only I don't see any reason why they haven't made a fix for mech in TvP. After all if you make some incredibly ugly fixes like these: - hellbat being biological - spores do bonus against bio - hellbats taking more cargo space than the hellion - widow mines doing bonus damage against shields then why don't they fix mech by actually making some fixes specifically targeted at mech v P, for example just some upgrade for tanks giving them bonus damage against shields. Instead the retards at blizzard are applauding themselves practically saying the balance is just right now and they want to wait a bit longer to make changes, ie. mech won't be fixed before LotV. It's not so hard either to make balanced matchups if you change them very little from WoL.. Mech is less popular but people still use it. I think that as people figure out how to play with it, it will become more powerful than bio on certain maps. Strelock has shown good Hellbat Tank mech in WCS EU, and i think Kop used it in a proleague game. Also it isn't neccesarily stronger then bio, its just different. Better at holding positions. This means that Rather then attacking third directly you want to try to posture in between the his army and his third, then send over a few helbats and one tank and he needs to walk straight into you tank line and engage really cost inefficiently, or he can sac the expo. In response to air you just need to keep scouting for it. Also hellions+medivacs provide plenty of mobility. I don't think mech is entirely figured out yet, but it has potential | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
Enough with the mech conspiracy. According to this "mech is not figured out yet" thesis there is a secret, somewhere, about how to play mech in TvP. But funnily enough, the secret is so well hidden that no one has ever discovered it despite repetitive attempts. The reason is of course simple: the secret does not exist. Wow, so well put. People who are still arguing that mech works need to read this. I'm not optimistic about mech even after LotV. Blizzard will 90% likely NOT buff anything about mech in HOTS. And the only way that mech will work is to add a mobile and fast-attack unit on the ground. Factory already has 5 units, so it's very unlikely that Blizzard will add another factory unit in LotV. I think we probably not going to see mech TvP viable in the entire SC2 series at all. | ||
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ChApFoU
France2984 Posts
Same could be said with TvZ mech before Flash era. High APM pro terrans didn't even bother to make tanks they just massed bio and vessels. At some point SK terran was the standard style vs zerg. | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
On May 24 2013 03:37 Qikz wrote: That's not true at all Dwf, I respect how good you are but you're spreading your hyperbole once again. If Mech is so bad, why would people like Kop and Strelok play it against Toss? Why would there have been lots of Terrans playing Mech vs Toss in the initial WCS Europe Qualifiers against Toss? There's plenty of Pros playing mech vs Toss. Just because they're not Flash or Innovation doesn't mean they don't exist. Sure mech could do with a buff against Toss, I'm not doubting that. However a well positioned, well upgraded mech army with ghosts (even without early in the game) beats every toss ground army in the game. I'm not joking here, I have games where I've done it, I've seen pro games where it happens, mech isn't terrible, it's just not as versatile as Bio and the current map pool doesn't support mech play so people don't do it. It's as simple as that. Also Viking/Raven beats Toss air completely. There's no compotition, although you need good micro against carriers. need some evidence to back up your claims, and a few replays wouldnt hurt. I have no idea where you are getting this information from, most of it sounds 100% incorrect, or youre describimg a very odd game situation. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
1. Hellbat not being bio 2. Tempest supply increase to 8 supply. 3. Tank damage has not been fixed vs Protoss, and Immortal is too hard counter/strong vs mech. The reason you will never see people do mech 100% of the time as a standard strategy TvP is because of one reason right now: Tempest. It is possible currently to mass 100% tempests vs a meching Terran and win every game with little to zero micro or effort. When you add in templar, you have broodlord + infestor 2.0 ON CRACK. It's currently possible to get up to around 25 tempests with templar. This should not be possible. The tempest right now is the singular reason why mech vs P is a failure, the tempest currently is 4 supply. A unit with the longest range in the game that is easily massable lategame should not be a 4 supply unit, it never should have been, and it was appropriately at 6 supply before they uber buffed it during the beta, because they thought it was "useless." Everyone should thank me for helping blizzard see the light about the +damage to massive ground, otherwise we'd have tempests right now that still 2 shot thors. Korean Terrans are not stupid. If me, a "foreign Terran" has played out a multitude of games into theoretical longest lategame where the Protoss simply wins by massing PURE tempest + a few templar, then you can 100% bet that all of the korean teams have already explored mech vs P and come to the same conclusion that it's not viable. Can you win with mech vs P? Yes, by killing workers. But that is it. And good Protoss will never let you do this. So, mech will absolutely never be viable against PRotoss, EVER, until tempests supply is increased. p.s. When I offraced as Protoss for two weeks during the beta, I never lost to a meching Terran. Once i saw factories -> immediate stargates -> mass tempest -> get templar underneath -> freewin. It was quite disgusting to play it from the Protoss side and realize how easy it was and just how many tempest you can mass. p.s. #2: I informed blizzard about this on their "pro forums" with replays as well, and they have still refused to take it seriously to make mech tvp viable. They actually seem to "hate" mech, going by interviews. They have a paradoxical view where they don't want a passive game, but then they keep mech tvp a catch-22 where the mech player can never attack because of requiring 2 tech paths to counter immortals and/or air. If the opponent goes mass immortal...you have to have ghost, aka you cannot attack till you have that tech, meaning you have to 100% turtle. If opponent goes stargates, you have to have mass vikings, you cannot attack until you have sufficient AA or even 5 voids could kill your 200/200 mech army in an "early push." This ironically means that if you play mech vs good Protosses you 100% can never attack until a 200/200 maxed army with ghosts + vikings. A 100% passive game is forced on a mech user by the bad design of the tempest/immortal, that blizzard refuses to address for mech tvp. That is where mech tvp is at now. | ||
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oZe
Sweden492 Posts
Also balancing three races with completely different mechanics. Might not be the easiest task you could undertake. This far I think HotS is pretty decent except for the increased lag. Not sure what they did because I usually have higher fps in HotS, but it still feels like it lags more even if you preload units... Balance seems pretty fine on the highest levels. I mean 2z,1t & 1p in the semis of first GSL. Can't believe terrans still whine with hellbats, medivacs with OPB, mines & free siege mode ^^ Seems to me zergs drew the shortest straw as usual and I play mostly random,terran & protoss these days. So pretty unbiased towards zerg. | ||
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gingerfluffmuff
Austria4570 Posts
On May 24 2013 02:51 sabas123 wrote: agreed, also i am getting sick of everybody going "gsl terrans don't do it so i don't do it" arguments. its invalid and just plain out stupid. you always should trust your own logic over any other trend. if you want to hear it from a pro level player, go to the day9 podcasts...... Hilarious, quoted this gem to find it again. Its not a matter of trusting in my own logic. Its just the korean terran playing in Code S is better / has a better understanding of sc2 than i do. I am better at other stuff than the korean pro, but not in sc2. So i will never question their decisions. Of course the meta game will evolve and in a few months you could say i am an idiot for having played like this, but atm its the best strategy to use. Thanks goes to Mr. Dwarf (just jokin, TheDwf) for trying to give logical reasons why stuff is as it is. | ||
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ThyLastPenguin
United Kingdom101 Posts
I literally just warp in DTs and blink stalker harass whilst getting a much better economy than the Terran. Except even though Mech gives me so much opportunity to get onto 2 more bases than them, it does nothing to help it in the final battle. Every time I seem to a-move + storm and win (maybe only by an immortal or 2, but still win) and THEN in comes my extra 60 supply of stalkers after I've had so much time to bank behind my pressure. Maybe I'm just playing bad people, but I just love the ladder points I get for free against mech. | ||
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headnut
Belgium58 Posts
mech isnt weaker. its just not explored. playing mech vs tempest is hard yes, but its still possible to win even when its antifun to fight a 15 range unit. i agree mech could need more small buffs. but its fully viable and works vs protoss almost as well as bio. right now koreans almost never use mech, because players are used to bio and practiced bio for so long so there is no reason to change their style. but give it some time and more korean progamers will use mech in tvp. other than that: strelok crushed koreans in WCS EU with mech in tvsp. | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
I use mech a lot in my tvps. I go siege tank, hellbat, mines and viking support. Yep, the major 3 mech splash dealing units. But like 12+ mines, which I position in front of my tanks. Turns out the mine blast beats the crap out of the immortals and archons, which are the real ground problem vs terran mech. Their shields barely matter since the immortals shield gets wiped out in one hit. And anything that closes in is torched by hellbats. The big weakness is of course air, but if you have ever played brood war you would know how to scout, anticipate and prepare for a protoss air transition. Also a few ravens help immensely vs tempests. If they make void rays, seeker missile them. Forget about thors, too slow, get kited to death. Forget about banshees, too expensive and fragile to be wrecked by archons or storms. If you are patient, calculative and good with positioning, mech is a blast to play tvp. + Show Spoiler + Also, the 2base thor, hellbat, banshee push with 16 scvs autorepair at 16:00 and +2 armor is an insane timing attack, that pretty much nobody uses on ladder. Just dont expect to carry on if it fails! | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On May 24 2013 06:13 headnut wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsS9KZfAoOs mech isnt weaker. its just not explored. playing mech vs tempest is hard yes, but its still possible to win even when its antifun to fight a 15 range unit. i agree mech could need more small buffs. but its fully viable and works vs protoss almost as well as bio. right now koreans almost never use mech, because players are used to bio and practiced bio for so long so there is no reason to change their style. but give it some time and more korean progamers will use mech in tvp. other than that: strelok crushed koreans in WCS EU with mech in tvsp. just stop this nonsense argument. Mech isn't close to bio when it comes to bio in TvP. Sure you can win with it if you had a good opening or you're opponent just reacts poorly, you can win with anything if you're ahead like the game shown. Any smart protoss going up against mech will just realize you can outexpand terran easily while being safe with immortals and stalkers and then you easily transition into air. One of the fundamental problems is that factories become largely obsolete when P is switching to air, unlike BW where the goliath comes out of the factory there is no good unit against carrier/tempest/voidray coming out of the factory in sc2. Sure mass void is easily beaten by thor splash and mass tempest can be battled by PDD but a mix of void/carrier and maybe a few tempests you can only fight with vikings for which you need lots of new infrastructure and which is only even in cost effectiveness. Protoss is more supply effective with late air, has an easier time getting a bigger economy since he has the more mobile army and has the fast remax to roll you if the fight is even. All these games that get posted that mech is good are always rediculously bad. Yes occasionally even at pro level mech wins a game here and there but they are practically always poor games where the protoss get's behind economically in some weird way while you easily have the advantage. It's the same way that people complain with bio against P that it's too weak lategame while you should never be on even economy playing bio, if you are you are already doing poorly. Looking back at the beta it saddens me they never tried anything decent to fix this matchup though. All attention went to fixing reapers, oracles, hellbats, tempests and the new stuff. They never tried any real buff that could have fixed mech. They really should have given the warhound more time because the concept for that was actually good. A factory unit that could fight air and stalkers. I really hope they bring it back in some way once but balanced to be mainly good in TvP. The bonus vs mechanical is actually an elegant way to make an unit good for TvP without making it overpowered in TvZ, but they removed it straight away before ever fiddling with it. The idea of it being an anti tank unit was just lousy, it should have been some unit like the queen: decent against ground but great against air. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On May 24 2013 05:07 gingerfluffmuff wrote: Hilarious, quoted this gem to find it again. Its not a matter of trusting in my own logic. Its just the korean terran playing in Code S is better / has a better understanding of sc2 than i do. I am better at other stuff than the korean pro, but not in sc2. So i will never question their decisions. Of course the meta game will evolve and in a few months you could say i am an idiot for having played like this, but atm its the best strategy to use. Thanks goes to Mr. Dwarf (just jokin, TheDwf) for trying to give logical reasons why stuff is as it is. I agree. The dwarf (as I call him too lol) lays out clearly, and logically the truth of mech in TvP. This is what cracks me up Having played mech a lot and also offraced as Protoss for an entire two weeks during the beta, at this point I'd say mech is not ever going to be viable because dkim/blizzard refuse to make a few key changes that could make it so: lol... "david kim and blizzard refuse to make a few key changes" I loved it. It cracks me up the almost conspiracy theory like nature of most of the people in this discussion. Haha found another great gem of a statement... For this reason alone David Kim needs to be fired really, so much effort in the beta trying to fix this somehow but no success at all. Especially since they've shown to give up in using elegant fixes only I don't see any reason why they haven't made a fix for mech in TvP. Beyond the sheer stubbornness and comical opinions-as-facts of all the MECH ONLY terrans, this topic is beaten to fucking death. Why do people keep making these same threads, over and over... | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12056 Posts
Beyond the sheer stubbornness and comical opinions-as-facts of all the MECH ONLY terrans, The thing I don't understand about with this, is surely if there's people playing mech only, that proves that it is somewhat viable to do the strat against toss? I wouldn't play mech only if I lost more than I won. | ||
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Pookie Monster
United States303 Posts
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