I was trying to go Mech in TvP since some 6 months ago before the HotS launch and in WoL was almost imposible.I am talking about the "tank heavy" mech,not the Thor focused mech showed by Lyyna.
MECH IS VIABLE.
Why are we not seeing it in GSL? Easy. Korean are greedy. They like aggressive aproach in games. The Innovation TvZ with mines is aggro as hell. There is no T in the world able to play as good as this guy and macro at same time. I have seen Demuslim try it and its ok,but ,not the same timings as Innovation. Mech is stale and immobile. Korean like to harass and be able to keep enemy defensive while macroing. With Mech this IS posible,but more difficult. Finally they are used to BIO and it Works.Why should they change and learn new things if BIO is so succesfull? Even Korean T and EU/NA Terrans dont play the same. Almost no foreigner do the 10 min push with 2 medivacs and expand meanwhile. They go out,yes,but just poke arround without any clear objective and many times dont even go to check the 3rd to prevent it.Koreans almost never let you take your 3rd without a fight.Just check the Flash/Parting game in the group of Death and you will see the difference btw KR and Foreigner Ts:
You can make Protoss fear to move out ,while macroing and maxing your army. At 15 min you can be in front of his natural/3rd with 30 hellbats and 7-8 tanks.If you do well in the early harass,there is almost no army to stop you. If you are not able to finish the game there or the early harass is not so succesfull,prepare for air from 14 min. Mass Vikings+Thor is the answer. Vs Tempest you just need ravens with PDD.Kiting is posible. I know there are HTs with storm,but you need to micro and try Dodge them while sniping Tempest/Voids/Carriers.
Blizzard really dropped the ball with mech in HotS. They've stated that their number 1 goal with terran in HotS was to make mech a viable alternative to bio, especially in TvP. Going from WoL -> HotS, protoss and zerg got more stuff to better deal with mech while on the terran end of the spectrum they've had one of their new mech units removed (which was for the better, it was too much of a marauder 2.0 and mech isn't about a-moving) and the other ones (hellbat and widow mine) has helped bio out more than mech. Hell, a lot of T players stopped incorprating tanks into their bioball in favor of widow mines (although from time to time you do see some siege tanks, but at the end of the day that isn't mech)
I just wished blizzard would have tried to buff the siege tank. Anything really; 25 less gas (mech is very gas dependent), possibly 2 supply tanks, or even bonus damage vs shields similar to widow mine. Anything at all, but we didn't even get any of that in the beta.
It's very disappointing to me honestly. TvP was my favorite match-up in BW to both play (both T and P) and to watch and it's just completely alien in SC2. I love siege tanks, I love positional play, and I want to see mech in TvP. Even if we have to wait another 3 years for LotV, I hope blizzard can come to their senses and try to make it work (and not like HotS where they just add mechanical units; the siege tank is the problem).
On May 24 2013 02:13 Qikz wrote: It's viable, it's possible and it against a ground protoss force is stronger in every single way than Bio is.
The only difference is, is at the highest level there's very few terrans playing mech as they know they can go bio and have been practicing and using that for 3 years now. Mech is outside of a few players unexplored in TvP at the highest level, but it's certainly strong.
As soon as people explore it more, it'll be used. Much like Mech vs Zerg.
This is such a nonsense argument. They've tried mech plenty in their practice and they know how to play mech from other matchups. Even so them being uncomfortable with mech would easily balance out with opponents being uncomfortable to play against it.
That's a nonsense argument. Playing mech in TvT is different from mech in TvZ, which would in-turn be drastically different from TvP. How long did it take before pros started playing mech in TvT? How long did it take after the Infernal Preigniter nerf before it came back? How long did it take after discovering mech in TvT to find a PROPER TvZ mech build? DAMN LONG TIMES. Mvp had to figure the entire matchup so that he could set up defenses for everything to just not die long enough to get to the late game. Bio is significantly easier to play. It doesn't get punished as hard for mistakes, requires less game knowledge to play at the highest level, and is much more explored so that you have more game knowledge should you want it.
StimmedProbe came up with a TvP mech build back at the END of WoL. Sure, some of his builds seem (and probably are) pretty gimmicky, but he's had success with it.
However, that being said, WoL was better for mech than HotS is (aside from Hellbat drops). Now, Protoss has super Void Rays (considering everything mech is armored except Hellbats) and Tempests. The classical issue of weak anti air as well as Immortals, Colossi, and Templar being pretty good just makes it hard. Also, even if you push, you're more likely to trade roughly evenly, which isn't good for Terran since Protoss can remake their army faster. If they walk into you, it's good, but Protoss players aren't THAT stupid. You need a pretty decisive advantage to win an engagement.
Well Mech now has the slowest speed and the smallest range out of all siege compositions and along with it has the worst anti air, most expensive production building cost. So it should obliterate 3 times its supply on the ground to make up for that, but that isn't possible because mech needs almost no upgrades to get to its maximum usefulness level. The lack of upgrades allows people to use the full power as soon as the factory is done, so mech units can't be that overpowered otherwise the midgame would be broken.
But slow and lowest range. Everyone can see what Hellbats do alone against anything faster with more range. Blizzard wants to allow multiple options to go for in Sc2, but Mech is just perfect against Bio (Bio below 800 apm). So as long as they want Bio as an option in TvT, Mech cannot be buffed enough to work in other matchups.
Dragon seems to have a lot of success with it and he plays 100% mech vs protoss (he is hovering around rank 10+- GM Na which I'm sure is higher than 100% of the people posting in here), although I don't know how it would hold against the very top, top Protoss.
Early on, he basically relies on Hellbat drops to do a good amount of damage because there's usually a timing window of opportunity before the protoss can really get a good amount of defenses up. Although rushing to Hellbat drops, it feels like theres A LOT of opportunities to die to early aggression (like 4 gate) but luckily for him, very few protoss do that these days.
His army composition generally consists of an early raven/viking to clear observers which I think is SUPER important - since mech requires very good positioning, denying your opponents vision will allow you move freely without his army being able to intercept yours too easily. The meat of his composition is almost always hellbat/tank + a few thors and he reacts into ghosts when he sees a good number of immortals, since immortals without shields aren't much of a counter to mech.
I've always thought mass void ray would be the appropriate counter to Mech since I don't see any unit really countering it... But I guess timing wise, the mech deathball is going to hit before you get a critical amount of them but I'm going to guess that it is auto-lose for the Terran player if the game ever reaches that stage.
Because while mech is the perfect example of deathball style that every BW player hated about SC2, Protoss simply has the stronger and more cost efficient deathball while having strong harrass options with the new units and cost changes.
Deathballs are punished through guerrilla warfare and multiprong hits. Something bio can easily achieve, making bio seem much more stronger than mech vs protoss.
Personally I dont consider mech and bio as the same race, since the mindset and play style is so different.
To answer OP's final questions, it depends how your usual gameplan vs protoss is to consider a style worth using or not. Bio is much weaker in a straight up fight vs protoss than mech, but since bio benefits HEAVILY on micro, the odds can be pulled to the bio player heavily through micro too, while for mech its a bit out of the question. Consider this - a highly spread bio force attacking into a balled up protoss force is actually a form of guerrilla warfare, since its coming from multiple angles and can easily retreat back. Bio also relies a lot on early-mid game guerrilla warfare to build up into the final killing blow, something mech can never ever accomplish smoothly.
Is there any point in using mech vs protoss in TvP? Its a game. If you think its fun and satisfying to play mech vs protoss, then do it. Personally I hate protoss and having anything to do with them so i just want the game to end early.....something mech cannot really achieve other than through allins, and there are plenty of better allins from bio to choose from.
To be honest, if I wanted to play a deathball style, Id just go play protoss.
Oh and I wouldnt bother trying to see whether pros use mech or not. I dont think they even give that much of a fuck about it. If they wanted to use it, they'll use it. If they didnt they wont. Simple. Its not about being lazy or not. If you are terran, why would you be practicing heavily with protoss?
On May 24 2013 08:26 Dvriel wrote: I was trying to go Mech in TvP since some 6 months ago before the HotS launch and in WoL was almost imposible.I am talking about the "tank heavy" mech,not the Thor focused mech showed by Lyyna.
MECH IS VIABLE.
Why are we not seeing it in GSL? Easy. Korean are greedy. They like aggressive aproach in games. The Innovation TvZ with mines is aggro as hell. There is no T in the world able to play as good as this guy and macro at same time. I have seen Demuslim try it and its ok,but ,not the same timings as Innovation. Mech is stale and immobile. Korean like to harass and be able to keep enemy defensive while macroing. With Mech this IS posible,but more difficult. Finally they are used to BIO and it Works.Why should they change and learn new things if BIO is so succesfull? Even Korean T and EU/NA Terrans dont play the same. Almost no foreigner do the 10 min push with 2 medivacs and expand meanwhile. They go out,yes,but just poke arround without any clear objective and many times dont even go to check the 3rd to prevent it.Koreans almost never let you take your 3rd without a fight.Just check the Flash/Parting game in the group of Death and you will see the difference btw KR and Foreigner Ts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsHk9dfbwCM
You can make Protoss fear to move out ,while macroing and maxing your army. At 15 min you can be in front of his natural/3rd with 30 hellbats and 7-8 tanks.If you do well in the early harass,there is almost no army to stop you. If you are not able to finish the game there or the early harass is not so succesfull,prepare for air from 14 min. Mass Vikings+Thor is the answer. Vs Tempest you just need ravens with PDD.Kiting is posible. I know there are HTs with storm,but you need to micro and try Dodge them while sniping Tempest/Voids/Carriers.
I think the issue with mech and Protoss is that you can't play passively and stay ahead of the Protoss at the same time. Also, early game can still be coinflippish against terran where going for a tech build can still be an auto loss.
Mech doesnt work as many have stated. Toward the end of wing of liberty Sea almost change my mind but he quit before he was able to ever prove it viability. Even then, I doubt it was ever viable since right now the scene is starting to show the rise of kespa player and Sea was considered one of the top terran kespa so it was probably just Sea out playing his opponent. People are saying mech is viable because it not explored enough, I will argue that mech is so weak that protoss dont even care to explore how they can deal with mech.
I still dont understand why tanks are not 2 supply
On May 24 2013 12:14 apeiro wrote: I don't understand why everyone wants mech to work in TvP so much. Why should every tech tree be viable in every matchup?
cause if mech is viable, then it will lead to a more diverse match up in TvP. Mech is also a distinctively different style because of how immobile it is compare to bio which SHOULD lead protoss protoss respond differently to counter this style. This will lead to a more different game. Protoss complain about not seeing carrier at all, with mech viable then carrier automatically become more viable. This is just another example and protoss will also have the option of playing a more mobile style and mass expanding abusing the immobility of mech rather then just massing death ball. How is this not good for everyone and the game itself?
Dont believe me just look at TvZ. Zerg respond differently to mech by going roach heavy mainly and then when dealing with bio they go ling mutas bane.
Im not entirely sure why it isn't viable, the strongest counters to mech that P has is mainly chargelot immortal, but both of those can be negated by hellbats quite easily, if t were to play mech like he's playing agianst terran, maybe a few medivacs because hellbats are bio, but going mostly vikings from the starport, that would nullify any real air counter to mech as well as allow for tankspotting. the hellbats buffer the chargelots and immortals, and if you get the conversion upgrade you can get them 2 at a time. widow mines, also able to be produced 2 at a time can help in funnelling the armies as well as buffer slightly against harass.
On May 24 2013 09:06 FeyFey wrote: Well Mech now has the slowest speed and the smallest range out of all siege compositions and along with it has the worst anti air, most expensive production building cost. So it should obliterate 3 times its supply on the ground to make up for that, but that isn't possible because mech needs almost no upgrades to get to its maximum usefulness level. The lack of upgrades allows people to use the full power as soon as the factory is done, so mech units can't be that overpowered otherwise the midgame would be broken.
But slow and lowest range. Everyone can see what Hellbats do alone against anything faster with more range. Blizzard wants to allow multiple options to go for in Sc2, but Mech is just perfect against Bio (Bio below 800 apm). So as long as they want Bio as an option in TvT, Mech cannot be buffed enough to work in other matchups.
There are ways around that. Blizzard is ok with convoluted solutions to problems, like the Hellbat bio tag or widow mine bonus to shields, shared ups. You could make Tanks with bonus to shields or psionic (Archons) etc.. They just can't be bothered IMO.
I think they wanted mech viable BUT with the marauder 2.0, the Warhound. Once they were shouted out of that terrible idea, i think they just decided to give up and started the "we don't know how much mech we really want" speech.
On May 24 2013 13:02 polysciguy wrote: Im not entirely sure why it isn't viable, the strongest counters to mech that P has is mainly chargelot immortal, but both of those can be negated by hellbats quite easily, if t were to play mech like he's playing agianst terran, maybe a few medivacs because hellbats are bio, but going mostly vikings from the starport, that would nullify any real air counter to mech as well as allow for tankspotting. the hellbats buffer the chargelots and immortals, and if you get the conversion upgrade you can get them 2 at a time. widow mines, also able to be produced 2 at a time can help in funnelling the armies as well as buffer slightly against harass.
Chargelots immortal are not the strongest counter, it is just another counter. Hellbat has help immensely with this so it not even that bad anymore to call it strongest counter is wrong. Strongest counter is carriers and if they get enough carrier you should just leave the game if you dont have viking+BC+ghost but even then you pretty much relying on emping the clump templar.
On May 24 2013 01:48 Markwerf wrote: There is a reason noone uses mech in TvP. HotS was a catastrophic failure on many parts, most of all trying to get mech to work in TvP. It was basically the focus of the entire terran revamp but didn;t do anything.
Early tank play can be fine and mixing in hellbats later is alright but pure mech just stinks. No mobility, no proper counter for air and just not even that great against ground.
For this reason alone David Kim needs to be fired really, so much effort in the beta trying to fix this somehow but no success at all. Especially since they've shown to give up in using elegant fixes only I don't see any reason why they haven't made a fix for mech in TvP. After all if you make some incredibly ugly fixes like these: - hellbat being biological - spores do bonus against bio - hellbats taking more cargo space than the hellion - widow mines doing bonus damage against shields then why don't they fix mech by actually making some fixes specifically targeted at mech v P, for example just some upgrade for tanks giving them bonus damage against shields.
Instead the retards at blizzard are applauding themselves practically saying the balance is just right now and they want to wait a bit longer to make changes, ie. mech won't be fixed before LotV. It's not so hard either to make balanced matchups if you change them very little from WoL..
I would agree that they hardly did anything to make mech more viable in HotS, but calling it a "catastrophic failure on many parts" is just a gross, biased exaggeration. Many progamers are saying that the game is much better than WoL ever was, and as a player/avid spectator I would agree.
The idea to give mech some bonus damage against shields sounds interesting, agreed that they should test.
However I will never understand why terrans want mech to be viable so badly. The arguments posted thus far are just things like "why shouldn't it?" and I'm not convinced that mech not being viable makes Starcraft 2 a bad game.
On May 24 2013 02:13 Qikz wrote: It's viable, it's possible and it against a ground protoss force is stronger in every single way than Bio is.
The only difference is, is at the highest level there's very few terrans playing mech as they know they can go bio and have been practicing and using that for 3 years now. Mech is outside of a few players unexplored in TvP at the highest level, but it's certainly strong.
As soon as people explore it more, it'll be used. Much like Mech vs Zerg.
I agree with this aswell!
It's like Flash and all the others are soo used to BIO play. Why change what you know =) (this is I think the reason they don't try mech .. because they know they can win/play good with BIO)
Hellbats are good, every other mechanical units isnt against protoss. That's just how it is. Some people get the disillusion that mech is good because hellbats are good, when in reality they are just way better when mixed with bio.
On May 24 2013 12:14 apeiro wrote: I don't understand why everyone wants mech to work in TvP so much. Why should every tech tree be viable in every matchup?
why should multiple compositions from zerg or protoss be viable, but for terran, only bio, viable?
On May 24 2013 12:14 apeiro wrote: I don't understand why everyone wants mech to work in TvP so much. Why should every tech tree be viable in every matchup?
why should multiple compositions from zerg or protoss be viable, but for terran, only bio, viable?
Mech is viable vs terran and zerg. TvP was never a fun matchup once it hit the third year of WoL where most terrans were focusing on killing toss before the 15 minute mark, because of how strong the toss main deathball was while having the option to drop and harrass on multi fronts similar to terran mid game.
EMP siege tank damage (+ damage vs shield) upgrade from armory would be nice ahhahahaa, although protoss ground was never the main issue when it came to playing against toss.
On May 24 2013 02:13 Qikz wrote: It's viable, it's possible and it against a ground protoss force is stronger in every single way than Bio is.
The only difference is, is at the highest level there's very few terrans playing mech as they know they can go bio and have been practicing and using that for 3 years now. Mech is outside of a few players unexplored in TvP at the highest level, but it's certainly strong.
As soon as people explore it more, it'll be used. Much like Mech vs Zerg.
I agree with this aswell!
It's like Flash and all the others are soo used to BIO play. Why change what you know =) (this is I think the reason they don't try mech .. because they know they can win/play good with BIO)
Hellbats are good, every other mechanical units isnt against protoss. That's just how it is. Some people get the disillusion that mech is good because hellbats are good, when in reality they are just way better when mixed with bio.
Hellbat+BIO are not so good. Why? No stim, man. If you cant kite and stim, its not good for you. Hellbats need a lot of time to kill a single building as well and we know how important is to snipe Protoss tech with drops. With mech, you cant snipe tech. Only kill workers with hellbat drop or Hellion/BFH runbies.Sometimes I am able to deny the 4th or 5th of P with 10 Hellbats.They arrive as hellions and transform.The splash is enough to kill a building nexus,but you must focus and almost be sure they will all die...
On May 24 2013 02:13 Qikz wrote: It's viable, it's possible and it against a ground protoss force is stronger in every single way than Bio is.
The only difference is, is at the highest level there's very few terrans playing mech as they know they can go bio and have been practicing and using that for 3 years now. Mech is outside of a few players unexplored in TvP at the highest level, but it's certainly strong.
As soon as people explore it more, it'll be used. Much like Mech vs Zerg.
I agree with this aswell!
It's like Flash and all the others are soo used to BIO play. Why change what you know =) (this is I think the reason they don't try mech .. because they know they can win/play good with BIO)
Hellbats are good, every other mechanical units isnt against protoss. That's just how it is. Some people get the disillusion that mech is good because hellbats are good, when in reality they are just way better when mixed with bio.
Hellbat+BIO are not so good. Why? No stim, man. If you cant kite and stim, its not good for you. Hellbats need a lot of time to kill a single building as well and we know how important is to snipe Protoss tech with drops. With mech, you cant snipe tech. Only kill workers with hellbat drop or Hellion/BFH runbies.Sometimes I am able to deny the 4th or 5th of P with 10 Hellbats.They arrive as hellions and transform.The splash is enough to kill a building nexus,but you must focus and almost be sure they will all die...
Are you trying to MASS hellbats -_-? Its really just MMM with a dash of hellbats in a straight fight, similar to adding salt on french fries. Kiting is not an issue when the main units you want hellbats to deal with are gonna be charging at you right in the face, plus having a super tanky light armor unit (stalkers dont kill them fast enough, nor immortals) that can be healed in the front lines help bio immensely. No they dont arrive as hellions, people just build them straight out as hellbats. Bio+hellbat is insanely cost efficient vs toss ground in a non-maxed scenario, and do quite decently vs max chargelot archon HT with some collosi. You will NOT be dropping hellbats vs toss unless its early game vs probes, or mixing a few in with a doom drop to instantly melt chargelot warpins.
I think it was Keen who showed it recently vs some toss in code S, although I think it was only ro32. and obviously Keen is no Flash/Bogus
EPT
