• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 09:30
CEST 15:30
KST 22:30
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall9HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL54Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?13FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event16Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster16Weekly Cups (June 16-22): Clem strikes back1
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form? The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation PiG Sty Festival #5: Playoffs Preview + Groups Recap The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Statistics for vetoed/disliked maps
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Korean Starcraft League Week 77 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) [GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Semi Finals & Finals $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady
Brood War
General
Player “Jedi” cheat on CSL BW General Discussion Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Unit and Spell Similarities
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Blogs
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 638 users

[G] ZvZ Quick third with upgraded lings

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
kamkerx
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States264 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-04 02:32:30
May 04 2013 01:27 GMT
#1
ZvZ fast third with ling upgrades


By SCAKamker


[image loading]




Hello TL, thank you all for viewing my latest guide!



My name is Nick McGregor aka "SCAKamker" and this is my first guide on TL. I was a Grand Master zerg in Wings, and am currently high masters in hots. This guide will be for a very safe and economic ZvZ play style utilizing the Zergling quick upgrades and a very fast third.



Main Objective + Show Spoiler +
Use upgraded zerglings to establish and maintain an economic advantage, then use your delayed but much strong tech to defeat your opponent




Ok lets talk about the build, there are 2 openings I use for this style but for now were going to focus on the general one. This one being very safe and possible on all maps



And it goes as follows:+ Show Spoiler +
15 pool

16 hatch

16 gas speed at 100

15 overlord

2 queens from main

24 third queen from nat

at 50 gas a spine and baneling nest

then when you hit 75 gas, assuming you don't have to make any banelings you put down 1 evo which will start plus 1 carapace upon completion and then plus melee after that

then when you reach full saturation on both bases you take a third and make pure speedling

Its also possible to play greedier this is just the safest variation of the build, but the play can be applied to any opening



Special build + Show Spoiler +
For the special build everything is the same but i switch the timing of my bane nest for my evo chamber and get the upgrade much sooner, and I'm able to do this on certain maps where you can wall off with an evo and a spine crawler ex. zerus prime




Now how to play this style + Show Spoiler +
In hots the ZvZ match up has evolved mostly into 2 base muta vs 2 base muta. I find this very tedious, and feel it leaves me with very few options and opportunities to outplay my opponent. This style has been my solution.

We take a very fast third using our upgraded lings to defend it. Also the plus 1 armor of our lings gives us a nice timing to hit a greedy zerg with mass ling baneling befor his mutas are out. Along with denying the third of your standard muta/ling zerg. Leaving us on three bases vs the two of our opponent. We then tech to our own mutas and win through superior gas and muta count




The Specifics


How to play vs. 2 base muta w/ no third or when you denie it with ling bane + Show Spoiler +
You're on 3 base to your opponents 2 great! But he has mutas out? No problem!

You are going to use mass upgraded ling/bane to counter attack his main/nat (or third if he tries to take one) anytime his mutas leave his base, while back at home you're building queens from all of your hatcheries along with necessary spores while waiting for your own mutas to pop out.

You then defend on 3 base with your queen muta until he gg's or kill him when he tries to take his third


replays + Show Spoiler +
standard



How to play vs. Quick third from your opponent + Show Spoiler +
Upon your opponent seeing your quick third base he may think he can take one of his own LET HIM. He will be stockpiling his gas getting ready to compete with you on mutas all while your waiting for your carapace to finish so you can hit him with a mass ling baneling attack (im talking 20 plus banes) killing his third and often winning you the game right out... However if your opponent is tenacious and still in the game you simply follow the guidelines from the previous step how to play vs. 2 base muta w/ no third or when you denie it with ling bane


Replays + Show Spoiler +
Special build
Normal build



But what if my opponent goes roaches? + Show Spoiler +
if your opponent does a roach build its the same principal as mutas you can keep him pinned back in his base with lings while building a superior roach army. Or you can defend the roaches my favorit way with mass spine/ling bane. The key with ling bane vs roach is moving banes to the center of the roach army for maximum splash while upgraded lings nibble up the remaining roaches


replays + Show Spoiler +
vs roach all in




Key things to remember/Tips


If your opponents defenses look weak don't be afraid to go all out with the plus 1 carapace timing (i often use all my gas on the banelings) if you kill all your opponents drones and units it doesn't really matter that he made 12 mutas

make as many lings as you have to for stalling purposes to get your own queens, mutas, spores out vs a 2 base muta/ling zerg

counter attacking and multi-prong harass is your best friend with this build

don't be afraid to take ling bane engagements unless your opponent did a ling upgrade build your lings will smoke theirs



Thanks for reading and Good Luck

any questions/suggestions feel free to leave a comment here

You can follow my stream here Stream

And follow me on twitter here twitter



Qwyn
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2779 Posts
May 04 2013 01:33 GMT
#2
I like it . I would suggest cleaning up the formatting a bit more and removing all the double spaces everywhere. Try to block paragraphs by subject and fix up grammar a bit more. The concept is strong and I've been doing something similar in my own ZvZs.
"Think of the hysteria following the realization that they consciously consume babies and raise the dead people from their graves" - N0
Moosegills
Profile Joined March 2011
United States558 Posts
May 04 2013 01:41 GMT
#3
You put down evo at 75 gas not 50 gas if you are trying to get carapace
#1 HuK fan, zerg player playing for http://www.complexitygaming.com - @coL_Moosegills
kamkerx
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States264 Posts
May 04 2013 02:32 GMT
#4
Thanks you're right gonna fix now
408xParadox
Profile Joined December 2011
United States140 Posts
May 04 2013 04:46 GMT
#5
When do we throw down the spire?
kamkerx
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States264 Posts
May 04 2013 04:53 GMT
#6
i get lair between 8-10 mins depending on how many banelings i make and spire right away usually once lair finishes
IcemanAsi
Profile Joined March 2011
Israel681 Posts
May 04 2013 07:07 GMT
#7
hmm, I was just thinking about something like this as trying to counter muta-muta with infestor tech isn't working for me.
I thought about using ( ling/bane -> upgraded carpace -> early 3rd base ) as well, but I thought instead of then trying to match his muta to go into ( ling/bane/hydra/queen ).
Thanks, I'll start from your build and try my deviation on it, thanks for saving me a lot of time
Kaleidos
Profile Joined October 2010
Italy172 Posts
May 04 2013 07:32 GMT
#8
Nice guide!. I was trying something similar to this. but i did add borrow to be even more annoying with lings harass (which might be a must go choice if the cost is reduced to 50 50).

I used to transition out into infestors ..which wasn't always a success ..but seemed ok.
Will definetely give a shot to the muta switch!
Insoleet
Profile Joined May 2012
France1806 Posts
May 04 2013 07:55 GMT
#9
What are the best counters to this tactic ?

I used to play a similar style, with infestors later.
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-04 08:03:51
May 04 2013 08:00 GMT
#10
On May 04 2013 16:55 Insoleet wrote:
What are the best counters to this tactic ?

I used to play a similar style, with infestors later.


If you do a standard mutalisk build you can defend this (and your third) with ling/bane. You have to be aware this is coming though. He gets a baneling nest and then carapace so his upgrades are late and by the time his carapace finish your mutalisks should be almost out or about to start morphing (which is the vulnerable timing).

If you see an evo or mass lings I get my own evo and +1 melee (to counteract the armor) and just play normal from there.

Not a bad guide but OP you might want to explain things a little better and stuff but not bad.

On May 04 2013 13:53 kamkerx wrote:
i get lair between 8-10 mins depending on how many banelings i make and spire right away usually once lair finishes


This is a very late lair which is why your ling attack really does have to do damage. A zerg going standard mutalisk should have a lair done before you even start yours (and your upgrade won't be done either). This is imo the biggest weakness of your build is if the zerg opponent defends properly your mutalisks are going to be a lot later which for you is going to be 2 minutes later which pretty much means you lose unless you can do some good damage.
When I think of something else, something will go here
Mad_Mardigon
Profile Joined January 2011
United States52 Posts
May 04 2013 09:05 GMT
#11
This is a very broken matchup so all of this study is unimportant, they ruined zvz by making mutas faster. nuff said.
Navious
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada4 Posts
May 04 2013 09:37 GMT
#12
I love you :D
Watch out, I'm gonna be a pro before you know it! you think I'm joking don't you...
afiLiazn
Profile Joined February 2012
United States47 Posts
May 04 2013 09:57 GMT
#13
nice guide, professor Kamker
Deleted User 261926
Profile Joined April 2012
960 Posts
May 04 2013 11:51 GMT
#14
On May 04 2013 18:05 Mad_Mardigon wrote:
This is a very broken matchup so all of this study is unimportant, they ruined zvz by making mutas faster. nuff said.

Nuff useless blabbering from you indeed.

Yesterday I was thinking of something similar..this sounds really nice.
kamkerx
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States264 Posts
May 04 2013 18:57 GMT
#15
On May 04 2013 16:32 Kaleidos wrote:
Nice guide!. I was trying something similar to this. but i did add borrow to be even more annoying with lings harass (which might be a must go choice if the cost is reduced to 50 50).

I used to transition out into infestors ..which wasn't always a success ..but seemed ok.
Will definetely give a shot to the muta switch!

Wow I don't know why I was getting burrow before defiantly going to now.
kamkerx
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States264 Posts
May 04 2013 21:58 GMT
#16
On May 04 2013 17:00 blade55555 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2013 16:55 Insoleet wrote:
What are the best counters to this tactic ?

I used to play a similar style, with infestors later.


If you do a standard mutalisk build you can defend this (and your third) with ling/bane. You have to be aware this is coming though. He gets a baneling nest and then carapace so his upgrades are late and by the time his carapace finish your mutalisks should be almost out or about to start morphing (which is the vulnerable timing).

If you see an evo or mass lings I get my own evo and +1 melee (to counteract the armor) and just play normal from there.

Not a bad guide but OP you might want to explain things a little better and stuff but not bad.

Show nested quote +
On May 04 2013 13:53 kamkerx wrote:
i get lair between 8-10 mins depending on how many banelings i make and spire right away usually once lair finishes


This is a very late lair which is why your ling attack really does have to do damage. A zerg going standard mutalisk should have a lair done before you even start yours (and your upgrade won't be done either). This is imo the biggest weakness of your build is if the zerg opponent defends properly your mutalisks are going to be a lot later which for you is going to be 2 minutes later which pretty much means you lose unless you can do some good damage.


You bring valid points this type of style is mostly a meta game move where you hit zergs hard that are trying to save as much money as possible for their mutas, even if they defend well I think it usually puts you on a close to even footing because they have to invest just about as much as you into banelings.

I also am studying up on guides others wrote so my next one will hopefully be a little clearer.
Thieflord
Profile Joined November 2012
United States4 Posts
May 05 2013 22:31 GMT
#17
I love the Zergling token, I wish there were cards that summoned zergling tokens ;3.
Gene(S)is
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden419 Posts
May 06 2013 20:07 GMT
#18
So I tried this out, the opponent pulled quite a few tricks on me. First he came with a flock of mutas which my spores and 5 queens defended with ease thanks to transfusions. Then he went for mass lings and some banes, fortunately I had a similar army only upgraded and defended that as well.

He then goes for an expo and attacks with roach, hydras and infestors and once again my upgraded lings and mutas managed to deal with it suprisingly well. I go for a 3rd and he goes for a 4th and I send flocks of lings to take out drones from both expos thus putting him quite behind in his so called investment. He then goes for swarm hosts, about 15 of them along with infestors and some mutas. The locusts did quite well against my ground army and I lost my 3rd but I managed to win the anti-air war and in the end he was defeated.

An intense, dangerous and fun way to play. My 3-3 lings dominated his forces which lacked the same upgrades.
For the swarm
schwza
Profile Joined September 2011
67 Posts
May 06 2013 20:22 GMT
#19
Can you post some more replays? In the only one under "standard" you crush his initial aggression so hard that I feel like you could have done anything and won.
kamkerx
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States264 Posts
May 06 2013 22:29 GMT
#20
Defiantly I think I have some from wcs, Its just that all my reps are on a thumb drive so it takes extremely long to look through them. :D
1 2 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
WardiTV European League
12:00
Swiss Groups Day 2
WardiTV1252
TKL 468
Liquipedia
CranKy Ducklings
10:00
Master Swan Open #93
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
TKL 468
Hui .204
BRAT_OK 92
MindelVK 43
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 11384
Horang2 2290
Bisu 2015
Flash 1443
Jaedong 1279
Larva 1054
Mini 809
BeSt 736
Stork 387
actioN 383
[ Show more ]
Last 212
Soulkey 187
Hyun 163
hero 127
Mind 125
Sea.KH 70
sSak 54
Yoon 48
TY 47
Mong 29
Icarus 22
GoRush 14
Terrorterran 11
HiyA 7
Stormgate
NightEnD29
Dota 2
XcaliburYe621
canceldota213
Counter-Strike
zeus538
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor299
Other Games
Gorgc3357
singsing3012
B2W.Neo1345
DeMusliM562
Fuzer 272
Lowko206
XaKoH 203
SortOf101
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Adnapsc2 23
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3499
• WagamamaTV757
League of Legends
• Nemesis4161
Upcoming Events
FEL
2h 30m
RSL Revival
20h 30m
Clem vs Classic
SHIN vs Cure
FEL
22h 30m
WardiTV European League
22h 30m
BSL: ProLeague
1d 4h
Dewalt vs Bonyth
Replay Cast
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
WardiTV European League
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 2v2 Season 3
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.