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ZvZ fast third with ling upgrades
By SCAKamker
Hello TL, thank you all for viewing my latest guide!
My name is Nick McGregor aka "SCAKamker" and this is my first guide on TL. I was a Grand Master zerg in Wings, and am currently high masters in hots. This guide will be for a very safe and economic ZvZ play style utilizing the Zergling quick upgrades and a very fast third.
Main Objective + Show Spoiler +Use upgraded zerglings to establish and maintain an economic advantage, then use your delayed but much strong tech to defeat your opponent
Ok lets talk about the build, there are 2 openings I use for this style but for now were going to focus on the general one. This one being very safe and possible on all maps
And it goes as follows:+ Show Spoiler +15 pool
16 hatch
16 gas speed at 100
15 overlord
2 queens from main
24 third queen from nat
at 50 gas a spine and baneling nest
then when you hit 75 gas, assuming you don't have to make any banelings you put down 1 evo which will start plus 1 carapace upon completion and then plus melee after that
then when you reach full saturation on both bases you take a third and make pure speedling
Its also possible to play greedier this is just the safest variation of the build, but the play can be applied to any opening
Special build + Show Spoiler +For the special build everything is the same but i switch the timing of my bane nest for my evo chamber and get the upgrade much sooner, and I'm able to do this on certain maps where you can wall off with an evo and a spine crawler ex. zerus prime
Now how to play this style + Show Spoiler +In hots the ZvZ match up has evolved mostly into 2 base muta vs 2 base muta. I find this very tedious, and feel it leaves me with very few options and opportunities to outplay my opponent. This style has been my solution.
We take a very fast third using our upgraded lings to defend it. Also the plus 1 armor of our lings gives us a nice timing to hit a greedy zerg with mass ling baneling befor his mutas are out. Along with denying the third of your standard muta/ling zerg. Leaving us on three bases vs the two of our opponent. We then tech to our own mutas and win through superior gas and muta count
The Specifics
How to play vs. 2 base muta w/ no third or when you denie it with ling bane + Show Spoiler +You're on 3 base to your opponents 2 great! But he has mutas out? No problem!
You are going to use mass upgraded ling/bane to counter attack his main/nat (or third if he tries to take one) anytime his mutas leave his base, while back at home you're building queens from all of your hatcheries along with necessary spores while waiting for your own mutas to pop out.
You then defend on 3 base with your queen muta until he gg's or kill him when he tries to take his third
replays + Show Spoiler +
How to play vs. Quick third from your opponent + Show Spoiler +Upon your opponent seeing your quick third base he may think he can take one of his own LET HIM. He will be stockpiling his gas getting ready to compete with you on mutas all while your waiting for your carapace to finish so you can hit him with a mass ling baneling attack (im talking 20 plus banes) killing his third and often winning you the game right out... However if your opponent is tenacious and still in the game you simply follow the guidelines from the previous step how to play vs. 2 base muta w/ no third or when you denie it with ling bane
Replays + Show Spoiler +
But what if my opponent goes roaches? + Show Spoiler +if your opponent does a roach build its the same principal as mutas you can keep him pinned back in his base with lings while building a superior roach army. Or you can defend the roaches my favorit way with mass spine/ling bane. The key with ling bane vs roach is moving banes to the center of the roach army for maximum splash while upgraded lings nibble up the remaining roaches
replays + Show Spoiler +
Key things to remember/Tips
If your opponents defenses look weak don't be afraid to go all out with the plus 1 carapace timing (i often use all my gas on the banelings) if you kill all your opponents drones and units it doesn't really matter that he made 12 mutas
make as many lings as you have to for stalling purposes to get your own queens, mutas, spores out vs a 2 base muta/ling zerg
counter attacking and multi-prong harass is your best friend with this build
don't be afraid to take ling bane engagements unless your opponent did a ling upgrade build your lings will smoke theirs
Thanks for reading and Good Luck
any questions/suggestions feel free to leave a comment here
You can follow my stream here Stream
And follow me on twitter here twitter
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I like it  . I would suggest cleaning up the formatting a bit more and removing all the double spaces everywhere. Try to block paragraphs by subject and fix up grammar a bit more. The concept is strong and I've been doing something similar in my own ZvZs.
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You put down evo at 75 gas not 50 gas if you are trying to get carapace
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Thanks you're right gonna fix now
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When do we throw down the spire?
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i get lair between 8-10 mins depending on how many banelings i make and spire right away usually once lair finishes
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hmm, I was just thinking about something like this as trying to counter muta-muta with infestor tech isn't working for me.
I thought about using ( ling/bane -> upgraded carpace -> early 3rd base ) as well, but I thought instead of then trying to match his muta to go into ( ling/bane/hydra/queen ).
Thanks, I'll start from your build and try my deviation on it, thanks for saving me a lot of time
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Nice guide!. I was trying something similar to this. but i did add borrow to be even more annoying with lings harass (which might be a must go choice if the cost is reduced to 50 50).
I used to transition out into infestors ..which wasn't always a success ..but seemed ok.
Will definetely give a shot to the muta switch!
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What are the best counters to this tactic ?
I used to play a similar style, with infestors later.
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On May 04 2013 16:55 Insoleet wrote:
What are the best counters to this tactic ?
I used to play a similar style, with infestors later.
If you do a standard mutalisk build you can defend this (and your third) with ling/bane. You have to be aware this is coming though. He gets a baneling nest and then carapace so his upgrades are late and by the time his carapace finish your mutalisks should be almost out or about to start morphing (which is the vulnerable timing).
If you see an evo or mass lings I get my own evo and +1 melee (to counteract the armor) and just play normal from there.
Not a bad guide but OP you might want to explain things a little better and stuff but not bad.
On May 04 2013 13:53 kamkerx wrote:
i get lair between 8-10 mins depending on how many banelings i make and spire right away usually once lair finishes
This is a very late lair which is why your ling attack really does have to do damage. A zerg going standard mutalisk should have a lair done before you even start yours (and your upgrade won't be done either). This is imo the biggest weakness of your build is if the zerg opponent defends properly your mutalisks are going to be a lot later which for you is going to be 2 minutes later which pretty much means you lose unless you can do some good damage.
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This is a very broken matchup so all of this study is unimportant, they ruined zvz by making mutas faster. nuff said.
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nice guide, professor Kamker
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On May 04 2013 18:05 Mad_Mardigon wrote:
This is a very broken matchup so all of this study is unimportant, they ruined zvz by making mutas faster. nuff said.
Nuff useless blabbering from you indeed.
Yesterday I was thinking of something similar..this sounds really nice.
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On May 04 2013 16:32 Kaleidos wrote:
Nice guide!. I was trying something similar to this. but i did add borrow to be even more annoying with lings harass (which might be a must go choice if the cost is reduced to 50 50).
I used to transition out into infestors ..which wasn't always a success ..but seemed ok.
Will definetely give a shot to the muta switch!
Wow I don't know why I was getting burrow before defiantly going to now.
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On May 04 2013 17:00 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 16:55 Insoleet wrote:
What are the best counters to this tactic ?
I used to play a similar style, with infestors later. If you do a standard mutalisk build you can defend this (and your third) with ling/bane. You have to be aware this is coming though. He gets a baneling nest and then carapace so his upgrades are late and by the time his carapace finish your mutalisks should be almost out or about to start morphing (which is the vulnerable timing). If you see an evo or mass lings I get my own evo and +1 melee (to counteract the armor) and just play normal from there. Not a bad guide but OP you might want to explain things a little better and stuff but not bad. Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 13:53 kamkerx wrote:
i get lair between 8-10 mins depending on how many banelings i make and spire right away usually once lair finishes This is a very late lair which is why your ling attack really does have to do damage. A zerg going standard mutalisk should have a lair done before you even start yours (and your upgrade won't be done either). This is imo the biggest weakness of your build is if the zerg opponent defends properly your mutalisks are going to be a lot later which for you is going to be 2 minutes later which pretty much means you lose unless you can do some good damage.
You bring valid points this type of style is mostly a meta game move where you hit zergs hard that are trying to save as much money as possible for their mutas, even if they defend well I think it usually puts you on a close to even footing because they have to invest just about as much as you into banelings.
I also am studying up on guides others wrote so my next one will hopefully be a little clearer.
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I love the Zergling token, I wish there were cards that summoned zergling tokens ;3.
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So I tried this out, the opponent pulled quite a few tricks on me. First he came with a flock of mutas which my spores and 5 queens defended with ease thanks to transfusions. Then he went for mass lings and some banes, fortunately I had a similar army only upgraded and defended that as well.
He then goes for an expo and attacks with roach, hydras and infestors and once again my upgraded lings and mutas managed to deal with it suprisingly well. I go for a 3rd and he goes for a 4th and I send flocks of lings to take out drones from both expos thus putting him quite behind in his so called investment. He then goes for swarm hosts, about 15 of them along with infestors and some mutas. The locusts did quite well against my ground army and I lost my 3rd but I managed to win the anti-air war and in the end he was defeated.
An intense, dangerous and fun way to play. My 3-3 lings dominated his forces which lacked the same upgrades.
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Can you post some more replays? In the only one under "standard" you crush his initial aggression so hard that I feel like you could have done anything and won.
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Defiantly I think I have some from wcs, Its just that all my reps are on a thumb drive so it takes extremely long to look through them. :D
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On May 04 2013 18:05 Mad_Mardigon wrote:
This is a very broken matchup so all of this study is unimportant, they ruined zvz by making mutas faster. nuff said.
I don't agree with your word choice, but i do agree with the attitude that the matchup has suffered from HoTS changes. I enjoy muta play so i still enjoy the mu, but playing anything other then muta is just not as strong. You can win with other play as a superior player, but even then you will still lose to muta.
The mu is a bit... boring atm.
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some reps are on another replay in my laptop bag which is in my moms car T_T hopefully upload them tomorrow.
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It's a nice build (mainly when u do evo before bnest :p)
But what u do if ur opponent search on 2evo +1/+1 & quick third ? You will be probly behind with only 1 evo.. (and u cant punish him)
I say that because the only one guy who countered me do this.
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On May 07 2013 16:45 Berty wrote:
It's a nice build (mainly when u do evo before bnest :p)
But what u do if ur opponent search on 2evo +1/+1 & quick third ? You will be probly behind with only 1 evo.. (and u cant punish him)
I say that because the only one guy who countered me do this.
Whenever i scout an evo before a bane nest i just all in as hard as i can with basically 100% win rate. You need to get bane nest before ups or its just a gimmick you cant hold roach bane or targa bane with evo first.
I hate playing vs ling ups style, one mistake vs it and you lose, feels so forgiving for the person thats doing the ling ups if they get it up. Been praying for a +1 damage to banelings buff for at least a year.
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Nice Guide Kamker!
I really like your special strat vs roaching timings. Ill have to try that!
See you online, SCA fighting
EDIT:
I would like to add something to this tho Kamker. I have played with this style in zvz for over a year, and occasionally you do face someone who uses the same style.
The game kinda ends in a stale mate because how the infestor really shuts down lings and banes. I find that whoever can reach ultra first can break the other.
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I guess the only thing i dont like about this build is that it still comes down to out macroing your opponent for a higher muta count in the end game while relying on a higher skill-capped defend in the opening game and a necessary aggression in the mid game to get ahead; an aggression that if poorly performed or mishandled means you're pretty much dead because you were relying on it to eek out your macro advantage that you squandered by getting carapace. (long sentence...)
I
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On May 08 2013 08:47 konicki wrote:
I guess the only thing i dont like about this build is that it still comes down to out macroing your opponent for a higher muta count in the end game while relying on a higher skill-capped defend in the opening game and a necessary aggression in the mid game to get ahead; an aggression that if poorly performed or mishandled means you're pretty much dead because you were relying on it to eek out your macro advantage that you squandered by getting carapace. (long sentence...)
I
I understand how you're looking at it but would argue that even in a standard game you fight ling bane vs ling bane for quicker thirds and doing this is simply a meta move that gives you a huge window where you're much stronger.
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On May 07 2013 18:08 Iksf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 16:45 Berty wrote:
It's a nice build (mainly when u do evo before bnest :p)
But what u do if ur opponent search on 2evo +1/+1 & quick third ? You will be probly behind with only 1 evo.. (and u cant punish him)
I say that because the only one guy who countered me do this. Whenever i scout an evo before a bane nest i just all in as hard as i can with basically 100% win rate. You need to get bane nest before ups or its just a gimmick you cant hold roach bane or targa bane with evo first. I hate playing vs ling ups style, one mistake vs it and you lose, feels so forgiving for the person thats doing the ling ups if they get it up. Been praying for a +1 damage to banelings buff for at least a year.
you only get evo before banes nest on certain maps where you can wall off with a spine and bane nest to defend against all ins
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On May 07 2013 16:45 Berty wrote:
It's a nice build (mainly when u do evo before bnest :p)
But what u do if ur opponent search on 2evo +1/+1 & quick third ? You will be probly behind with only 1 evo.. (and u cant punish him)
I say that because the only one guy who countered me do this.
It would really depend how quickly he gets the evos but I would recommend matching upgrades and playing it out like a normal game, as it feels way to risky to get behind on ling upgrades and still defend properly unless you have mass spine.
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On May 08 2013 01:12 BuiBui wrote:
Nice Guide Kamker!
I really like your special strat vs roaching timings. Ill have to try that!
See you online, SCA fighting
EDIT:
I would like to add something to this tho Kamker. I have played with this style in zvz for over a year, and occasionally you do face someone who uses the same style.
The game kinda ends in a stale mate because how the infestor really shuts down lings and banes. I find that whoever can reach ultra first can break the other.
Hehe that sounds like it sucks, luckily that's never happens to me before im to stubborn and go mutas
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I honestly believe that the muta problem won't be fixed until zerg get an AA t1 unit. Protoss have the stalker, Terran the marine. Blizzard won't do that though (like ever), so expect either ridiculous nerfs to mutas making them useless in other MU's or some CRAZY +bio damage on something (like they've attempted with spores). Blizzard logic #1.
On topic: great guide definitely going to play about with this! Thanks!
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On May 08 2013 19:12 virtu wrote:
I honestly believe that the muta problem won't be fixed until zerg get an AA t1 unit. Protoss have the stalker, Terran the marine. Blizzard won't do that though (like ever), so expect either ridiculous nerfs to mutas making them useless in other MU's or some CRAZY +bio damage on something (like they've attempted with spores). Blizzard logic #1.
On topic: great guide definitely going to play about with this! Thanks!
This post gave me some weird vision of someone fighting mutas with mass upgraded queens... the horror, I do agree with you though and I dislike the spore buff to try to balance it.
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On May 08 2013 19:12 virtu wrote:
I honestly believe that the muta problem won't be fixed until zerg get an AA t1 unit. Protoss have the stalker, Terran the marine. Blizzard won't do that though (like ever), so expect either ridiculous nerfs to mutas making them useless in other MU's or some CRAZY +bio damage on something (like they've attempted with spores). Blizzard logic #1.
On topic: great guide definitely going to play about with this! Thanks!
Queen is a T1 AA unit.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz62/aramiml/Sc2%20Magic%20edit%201/Zergling.jpg)
