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Canada155 Posts
Hello everybody! I'm DIRESTRAIT, a GM zerg player on the NA server.
I've recently thought up a standard building placement for ZvZ that I believe could improve everybody's game, from bronze to pro-level.
As you know, protosses and Terrans have been walling off versus zerg for a very long time now, the concept being that if you put buildings in the way, melee units have a harder time getting surface area wihch means they are less cost effective. Several people have attempted to apply this to ZvZ but there's always the problem of cost and engagement difficulties versus ranged armies that decrease viability. This being said, I felt that zerg placing it's buildings somewhat randomly just couldn't be optimal, there had to be a happy medium.
THIS specific building placement allows for optimal protection of the zerg queen without sacrificing too much mobility. It also decreses the surface area of the spine crawler at the natural. It only involves 2 buildings (excluding the hatchery) wihch means you're pretty much taking the buildings you make anyway but place them in a more logical formation.
I'll lead right into it with an example :
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eOtDlgwl.jpg?1)
This picture is my natural expasion. In a normal game, the standard is to have a spine crawler and a baneling nest here. As I said I wasn't a fan of the ZvZ walloffs. What I'm suggesting is a standard way to place the two buildings that are ALREADY going to be at your natural. The baneling nest and the spine crawler.
The same concept applies for the main base:
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KNvMasll.jpg) It is important to note that I used an evo chamber in the main, that's because my playstyle in ZvZ is to go upgraded speedlings into mutalisks, that evo could very well just be a spine crawler like it is in the natural. Keep in mind there's no rush to close the walloff in the main because there won't be any action there until later game ling runby's which this placement is excellent for.
The how to:
+ Show Spoiler +STEP 1Ingredients : A hatchery, 2 drones, a queen ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/e9AcRqNl.png) STEP 2Baneling nest placement: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9m6sLEul.jpg) Align it with the edge of the hatchery, place it 1 square away from the hatch. STEP 3Spine crawler placement: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/d0VepFrl.jpg) STEP 4Queen placement: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tHHcMOGl.jpg)
The advantages:
I won't go into huge paragraphs as to why this placement is optimised. It's fairly straightforward:
-The Queen is harder to kill, zerglings can't get surface area.
-The spine crawler is harder to kill, zerglings can't get as much surface area.
-The spine crawler covers the mineral line
The disadvantage
**IMPORTANT NOTE**
This building placement may slow down your baneling nest placement somewhat. If you're going hatch first gas first and you plan on getting a baneling nest with your first 50 gas, you won't be able to place it at the natural. Atleast not as described in this post.
If you go hatch first speed first you will be able to place it properly and then follow up with a spine crawler.
I hope you guys got the gist of it! I haven't quite had time to put together a replay pack of this in use as I just finished school and I'm starting to practice hardcore again as of this week. If anybody has any replays with this being used or feedback please PM me I'll be happy to respond.
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Doesn't the pool placement give it more surface area/less protection vs a 10 pool?
Apart from that concern cool ideas!
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Canada155 Posts
On May 01 2013 04:21 FCReverie wrote:
Doesn't the pool placement give it more surface area/less protection vs a 10 pool?
Apart from that concern cool ideas!
It does allow a bit more surface area but with the quantity of zerglings that are going to be on the map at that time it's not going to be a huge impact. For example you won't have 16 lings attacking your pool at that timing, which means that the additional surface area isn't going to be covered in lings anyways. Keep in mind it gives you a nice choke to defend from with a queen and some hold position drones or lings.
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On May 01 2013 04:30 DIRESTRAIT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 04:21 FCReverie wrote:
Doesn't the pool placement give it more surface area/less protection vs a 10 pool?
Apart from that concern cool ideas! It does allow a bit more surface area but with the quantity of zerglings that are going to be on the map at that time it's not going to be a huge impact. For example you won't have 16 lings attacking your pool at that timing, which means that the additional surface area isn't going to be covered in lings anyways. Keep in mind it gives you a nice choke to defend from with a queen and some hold position drones or lings.
I meant more that by putting it behind the minerals or closer to drones its easier to defend with drones (before your lings come out.. Yeh surface area wouldnt be a problem.
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Canada155 Posts
On May 01 2013 04:35 FCReverie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 04:30 DIRESTRAIT wrote:On May 01 2013 04:21 FCReverie wrote:
Doesn't the pool placement give it more surface area/less protection vs a 10 pool?
Apart from that concern cool ideas! It does allow a bit more surface area but with the quantity of zerglings that are going to be on the map at that time it's not going to be a huge impact. For example you won't have 16 lings attacking your pool at that timing, which means that the additional surface area isn't going to be covered in lings anyways. Keep in mind it gives you a nice choke to defend from with a queen and some hold position drones or lings. I meant more that by putting it behind the minerals or closer to drones its easier to defend with drones (before your lings come out.. Yeh surface area wouldnt be a problem.
You're right, though I feel that overall it's going to be a better way to place the pool, especially if you make a queen during your defense, it gives you a place to hide it that's better than in between two mineral patches.
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I think that if you hatch first the pool is better placed behind your minerals in case of early pools. But if you do a a pool hatch opening, then the pool placement you mention in the OP is good. Would it also be possible to put your evo chamber next to your baneling next to make your spine crawler almost unkillable by zerglings? Assuming your queen is in that area as well.
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Canada155 Posts
On May 01 2013 05:05 Nezi wrote:
I think that if you hatch first the pool is better placed behind your minerals in case of early pools. But if you do a a pool hatch opening, then the pool placement you mention in the OP is good. Would it also be possible to put your evo chamber next to your baneling next to make your spine crawler almost unkillable by zerglings? Assuming your queen is in that area as well.
That's entirely map specific, in some cases it's possible to put an evo chamber next to the spine crawler to cut down on the surface area even further while in others you're walling off before the ramp (I have the example in the spoiler + Show Spoiler +
I have done it alot, it is quite useful, though i leave that up to personal style. I didn't include it because not everyone WANTS to get an EVO either.
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This is pretty sick...I might just switch to zerg! Just. Cuz. I. Can.
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United States4883 Posts
This is awesome! I've been playing around with building placement some and coming up with some weird weird things like semi-walls with the baneling nest and spine crawler, but I like this particular placement better. Protecting DAT QUEEN! :D
Thanks for the guide! If you have any more cool ideas for zerg like this, post it!
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Cool stuff. Protecting the queen is very important, so why not make use of building that are going to be there already to serve another, higher, purpose? :D Thanks!
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I've found placing my baneling nest after I've mined 150 gas like you describe isn't possible at my natural if I go for a pool first speed -> baneling nest build when I take a 16 hatchery and 15 pool/15 gas. Am I doing this wrong, or is it not possible to do this with my pool first opening?
Edit: I was trying to place my baneling nest so that I could fit a spine between it and the hatch, it looks like your baneling nest is half as far away from the hatch, so it might work with pool first builds.
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Cool building placement idea with queen. I don't know if it works like in SC1 where if you place a non-attacking unit in the way of a ranged unit (in this case a queen), melee units freak out and don't attack. Could you do the same with a drone blocking in the queen so that zerglings wouldn't be able to attack without having to manually attack the drone first? Or do they just kill the drone automatically to get to the queen?
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United States4883 Posts
On May 01 2013 12:36 Epishade wrote:
Cool building placement idea with queen. I don't know if it works like in SC1 where if you place a non-attacking unit in the way of a ranged unit (in this case a queen), melee units freak out and don't attack. Could you do the same with a drone blocking in the queen so that zerglings wouldn't be able to attack without having to manually attack the drone first? Or do they just kill the drone automatically to get to the queen?
It will screw up the zergling AI if you place 2 drones in the way. However, if your opponent uses hold position micro (probably a diamond+ skill), they will kill the 2 drones almost instantly and your queen will still be vulnerable. It's probably better to just leave your drones where they are in most situations.
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On May 01 2013 12:52 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 12:36 Epishade wrote:
Cool building placement idea with queen. I don't know if it works like in SC1 where if you place a non-attacking unit in the way of a ranged unit (in this case a queen), melee units freak out and don't attack. Could you do the same with a drone blocking in the queen so that zerglings wouldn't be able to attack without having to manually attack the drone first? Or do they just kill the drone automatically to get to the queen? It will screw up the zergling AI if you place 2 drones in the way. However, if your opponent uses hold position micro (probably a diamond+ skill), they will kill the 2 drones almost instantly and your queen will still be vulnerable. It's probably better to just leave your drones where they are in most situations.
First off, really nice post about this!
Secondly, as John mentioned; A Diamond+ would easily hold pos to kill the drones.
But if u know its coming (like spotting it on the minimap), would it be worthwhile to build a spore to completely wall in the queen? can the queen protect the drones from there?
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On May 01 2013 15:35 SweKenZo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 12:52 SC2John wrote:On May 01 2013 12:36 Epishade wrote:
Cool building placement idea with queen. I don't know if it works like in SC1 where if you place a non-attacking unit in the way of a ranged unit (in this case a queen), melee units freak out and don't attack. Could you do the same with a drone blocking in the queen so that zerglings wouldn't be able to attack without having to manually attack the drone first? Or do they just kill the drone automatically to get to the queen? It will screw up the zergling AI if you place 2 drones in the way. However, if your opponent uses hold position micro (probably a diamond+ skill), they will kill the 2 drones almost instantly and your queen will still be vulnerable. It's probably better to just leave your drones where they are in most situations. First off, really nice post about this! Secondly, as John mentioned; A Diamond+ would easily hold pos to kill the drones. But if u know its coming (like spotting it on the minimap), would it be worthwhile to build a spore to completely wall in the queen? can the queen protect the drones from there?
The Queen can protect the Drones. Slowly. While the flock of Zerglings rapes the mineral line. But hey, your Queen will be alive when the Zerglings leave!
Nah, I would say it's actually better to leave it open so that the enemy is tempted to go for the Queen, at least to divert a few Zerglings away from the mineral line.
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This is very nice, especially the natural placements. I already use the baneling nest and hatch to reduce surface area on my spine, but if you're against something like a 2 gas baneling bust an easy way to die is getting your queen sniped and falling behind in ling production. The only thing I worry about is if your queen is in the pocket and the spine protects the nat mineral line, on some maps that leaves the path from nat entrance to main ramp exposed. But I'm definitely trying this out.
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Canada155 Posts
On May 01 2013 16:35 Entirety wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 15:35 SweKenZo wrote:On May 01 2013 12:52 SC2John wrote:On May 01 2013 12:36 Epishade wrote:
Cool building placement idea with queen. I don't know if it works like in SC1 where if you place a non-attacking unit in the way of a ranged unit (in this case a queen), melee units freak out and don't attack. Could you do the same with a drone blocking in the queen so that zerglings wouldn't be able to attack without having to manually attack the drone first? Or do they just kill the drone automatically to get to the queen? It will screw up the zergling AI if you place 2 drones in the way. However, if your opponent uses hold position micro (probably a diamond+ skill), they will kill the 2 drones almost instantly and your queen will still be vulnerable. It's probably better to just leave your drones where they are in most situations. First off, really nice post about this! Secondly, as John mentioned; A Diamond+ would easily hold pos to kill the drones. But if u know its coming (like spotting it on the minimap), would it be worthwhile to build a spore to completely wall in the queen? can the queen protect the drones from there? The Queen can protect the Drones. Slowly. While the flock of Zerglings rapes the mineral line. But hey, your Queen will be alive when the Zerglings leave! Nah, I would say it's actually better to leave it open so that the enemy is tempted to go for the Queen, at least to divert a few Zerglings away from the mineral line.
Yeah I have to agree with how weak of a defense the queen puts up. You can wall it off with an evo, not a spore, though as I mentioned in an earlier comment not every map allows for this, and honestly I wouldn't spend that money on a spore when the queen is hard enough to kill already. Also keep in mind that if you make a spore he's more tempted to kill the spine instead which is arguably worse in this situation.
You can hold position the drones at the mineral line so the ling ai runs them back up to the spine and the queen and if the lings hold pos then you can just drone stack on a gas geiser next to the spine and run around that way. Keep in mind that if you run away from the lings he won't be able to attack move into your lings he'll have to manually attack click each of them.
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Thanks for this. I'll start doing it, and it also makes me think about how best to place my other buildings.
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This seems good, but I would prefer to wall off my natural with spires. What are your thoughts on this, DIRESTRAIT?
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Canada155 Posts
On May 05 2013 07:13 ComBro1 wrote:
This seems good, but I would prefer to wall off my natural with spires. What are your thoughts on this, DIRESTRAIT?
It only works if you're trying to get +1 carapace, +1 attack and greater spire at the same time
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this is really good, I'm going to start using this. I've always wondered about building positioning as zerg. Definitely helps defend against early ling aggression.
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This is a decent idea but I prefer to have spine and queen in the mineral line and just stop drones around them if I need to cover them.
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Genius. I think a lot, if not the vast majority, of zergs have been missing a logical building formation for the longest time. This had to be done.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Vd49Nsil.jpg)
