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Good guide.
I think the forge could be cut until after robotics for some optimization. If you do it this way you could also decide to add double forge if the terran is being very greedy. The only time I'd think of ever getting a forge that early is if you do a pre-10 minute attack timing, which you don't really see too often anymore.
edit: guess I'll add some reasoning. If the terran is going 1 base mine drop or proxy mines you should become aware of this if they have not expanded within a certain amount of time. If you scout the proxy factory you can just kite mines before they get anywhere near inside your base. If they're going for a drop you'll surely have observers by this time if you build your robotics slightly faster.
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This build is pretty much the same as a 1gate->msc->nexus->fast robo->fast colo
Or at least it fulfills the same purpose. What i dont understand is, why you go for such an early forge for those cannons when you could just get out the fast robo, get out 2 observers (one for his base one for yours), get out fast colos and 3 more gates and youll still end up at the same point at 8 minutes, just that you wont have slowed yourself down unnecesarily with the early forge, when you can just drop a doulbe forge at 8 minutes and quickly recoup the time lost on your first upgrade of choice. Also youll be farther in tech and wont have to waste another 300 minerals on cannons in your mineral line. Im only mid masters EU so id really like to hear your gm opinion on why you do it the way you do and not the way that i just posted here. :D
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Loved the guide the moment i'd read the avatar quote  besides i also love this opening since I had a lot of trouble being drop save yet economically stable! Good one. The mid game guide would be nice too
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I have seen similar build from MVPSuper during his ATC matches...I have been using this build primary on Whirlwind and Akilon waste or some big map...
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On April 29 2013 23:58 onewaystyx wrote:
This build is pretty much the same as a 1gate->msc->nexus->fast robo->fast colo
Or at least it fulfills the same purpose. What i dont understand is, why you go for such an early forge for those cannons when you could just get out the fast robo, get out 2 observers (one for his base one for yours), get out fast colos and 3 more gates and youll still end up at the same point at 8 minutes, just that you wont have slowed yourself down unnecesarily with the early forge, when you can just drop a doulbe forge at 8 minutes and quickly recoup the time lost on your first upgrade of choice. Also youll be farther in tech and wont have to waste another 300 minerals on cannons in your mineral line. Im only mid masters EU so id really like to hear your gm opinion on why you do it the way you do and not the way that i just posted here. :D
Its really just a matter of preference, some small advantages in my build include a faster nexus and sentries. I dont like going fast colossus into double forge because its very gas heavy and vulnerable to drop heavy playstyles. My mid game preference is to go for fast blink or for a mid game dt drop. While its possible to go for either of these with the fast robo as you described, things seem to flow much better for me with my build order.
You could use units and an observer to stop widow mine drops, but that requires you to have the units. At a standard widow mine drop timing my army count is small, It's easier to stop a widow mine drop with a cannon in my opinion because there is no risk of the widow mine killing the cannon to a mis micro.
The cannon also serves a purpose in the mid game in helping to defend against other drops.
Its only a waste of 300 minerals if the terran does not go for any form of harass, which these days is rarely the case. If I feel as if the terran is not going for harassment then I do not build the cannons.
Overall, I'm not saying my build is necessarily better than the one you described, it just offers a different approach. Some people (like myself) might find it easier and more effective to defend widow mine drop with a cannon, others might find it better with a forge. Honestly you should try learning both so that you can catch people off-guard when they think they know you're opening 
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I think there's a better way to MSC expand in PvT:
(a) If you want to skip the early sentry and just get 3 stalkers once wg is finished, you go 13 gate 13 gas (delay second chrono) --> MSC expand (gas pylon afterwards) --> robo at 4:40 --> stalker at 5:00 --> 2nd gateway at 5:15. Warp in 2 stalkers once wg is finished. This is super safe against widow mines, but I think it may not be as safe against hellions without medivacs. I haven't tried to figure out hellion timings though.
(b) If you want a stalker + sentry to block your ramp against hellions (or for w/e reason you think an early sentry is necessary), you go double gas at 15 --> MSC expand (pylon afterwards) --> 1 sentry then 3 stalkers --> robo at 5:00. With this version of the build, your second gateway is delayed for a while (or skipped). I haven't practiced this one yet, but this is the new MSC expand version Tails has started doing recently.
Neither of these 2 includes a zealot, though you can start it and then cancel it to avoid getting ebay blocked. I don't find double forge colossus vulnerable to drops at all though. I noticed the games I've lost recently was because I didn't get 16 probes on minerals in each base by 8:40 (so my gateways were late and I missed an essential warp in wave that takes place before you can open them) - which is when you should cut probes in order to get your extra gateways up (total of 6). At this point, I already have 3 stalkers + 3 observers + 4 sentries and a colossus that starts at about 8:00. I believe once you start your upgrades, which is soon after you built your gateways, you have to warp in 2 more stalkers. You can use observers to spot drops at the main, keep stalkers by your ramp (depending on the map), 4 sentries + colossus at natural, and MSC in between both bases (again, map dependent). At 9:50-10:00, you warp in 6 extra units and defend. But if you mess up like I did the other game and have only 3 stalkers + 4 sentries + colossus after 10 minutes, the build is definitely going to fail vs a good drop. You need to make sure your timings are sharp to build truly safe.
PS: I haven't checked your cannon timings exactly. I might actually be easier to defend against early aggression depending on how fast you get your cannons. But I'm not sure if easier means better in the long run. I guess it depends on the strategy you're going for, though I think 300 minerals is a bit much before you get your gateways up, but I'll take a look at the build anyway.
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On April 30 2013 01:27 AGIANTSMURF wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 23:58 onewaystyx wrote:
This build is pretty much the same as a 1gate->msc->nexus->fast robo->fast colo
Or at least it fulfills the same purpose. What i dont understand is, why you go for such an early forge for those cannons when you could just get out the fast robo, get out 2 observers (one for his base one for yours), get out fast colos and 3 more gates and youll still end up at the same point at 8 minutes, just that you wont have slowed yourself down unnecesarily with the early forge, when you can just drop a doulbe forge at 8 minutes and quickly recoup the time lost on your first upgrade of choice. Also youll be farther in tech and wont have to waste another 300 minerals on cannons in your mineral line. Im only mid masters EU so id really like to hear your gm opinion on why you do it the way you do and not the way that i just posted here. :D Its really just a matter of preference, some small advantages in my build include a faster nexus and sentries. I dont like going fast colossus into double forge because its very gas heavy and vulnerable to drop heavy playstyles. My mid game preference is to go for fast blink or for a mid game dt drop. While its possible to go for either of these with the fast robo as you described, things seem to flow much better for me with my build order. You could use units and an observer to stop widow mine drops, but that requires you to have the units. At a standard widow mine drop timing my army count is small, It's easier to stop a widow mine drop with a cannon in my opinion because there is no risk of the widow mine killing the cannon to a mis micro. The cannon also serves a purpose in the mid game in helping to defend against other drops. Its only a waste of 300 minerals if the terran does not go for any form of harass, which these days is rarely the case. If I feel as if the terran is not going for harassment then I do not build the cannons. Overall, I'm not saying my build is necessarily better than the one you described, it just offers a different approach. Some people (like myself) might find it easier and more effective to defend widow mine drop with a cannon, others might find it better with a forge. Honestly you should try learning both so that you can catch people off-guard when they think they know you're opening
Okay i see your point. We just play different builds i guess. I opt to go for a later nexus and a bit more units a bit earlier so i can defend vs widow mines with obs and army. By doing so i cant get an early forge but much rather get two at 8 minutes. Similiar builds, just some slight differences. What the main thing is though, is that i opt to go for templar archives and hts while i get my third instead of blink stalkers and dts. So i prefer a much more straight up macro approach the to MU.
I also dont like to get the mid game stalkers and dts. These two units i get only in the late game, which is probably why i use the build i do, since i can then invest the excess gas into the doulbe ups, colo tech and then a bit later hts.
Both builds work i guess, but the thing with the cannons keeps bothering me x) If you have such an early msc i think that you could easily defend vs widow mine drops with nexus cannons + the few units you have. I really think (especially as a grandmaster) that you can micro well enough and react fast enough to cut the two cannons. I mean those are two gates more that youll have then.
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On April 30 2013 02:13 vhapter wrote:I think there's a better way to MSC expand in PvT: (a) If you want to skip the early sentry and just get 3 stalkers once wg is finished, you go 13 gate 13 gas (delay second chrono) --> MSC expand (gas pylon afterwards) --> robo at 4:40 --> stalker at 5:00 --> 2nd gateway at 5:15. Warp in 2 stalkers once wg is finished. This is super safe against widow mines, but I think it may not be as safe against hellions without medivacs. I haven't tried to figure out hellion timings though. (b) If you want a stalker + sentry to block your ramp against hellions (or for w/e reason you think an early sentry is necessary), you go double gas at 15 --> MSC expand (pylon afterwards) --> 1 sentry then 3 stalkers --> robo at 5:00. With this version of the build, your second gateway is delayed for a while (or skipped). I haven't practiced this one yet, but this is the new MSC expand version Tails has started doing recently. Neither of these 2 includes a zealot, though you can start it and then cancel it to avoid getting ebay blocked. I don't find double forge colossus vulnerable to drops at all though. I noticed the games I've lost recently was because I didn't get 16 probes on minerals in each base by 8:40 (so my gateways were late and I missed an essential warp in wave that takes place before you can open them) - which is when you should cut probes in order to get your extra gateways up (total of 6). At this point, I already have 3 stalkers + 3 observers + 4 sentries and a colossus that starts at about 8:00. I believe once you start your upgrades, which is soon after you built your gateways, you have to warp in 2 more stalkers. You can use observers to spot drops at the main, keep stalkers by your ramp (depending on the map), 4 sentries + colossus at natural, and MSC in between both bases (again, map dependent). At 9:50-10:00, you warp in 6 extra units and defend. But if you mess up like I did the other game and have only 3 stalkers + 4 sentries + colossus after 10 minutes, the build is definitely going to fail vs a good drop. You need to make sure your timings are sharp to build truly safe. PS: I haven't checked your cannon timings exactly. I might actually be easier to defend against early aggression depending on how fast you get your cannons. But I'm not sure if easier means better in the long run. I guess it depends on the strategy you're going for, though I think 300 minerals is a bit much before you get your gateways up, but I'll take a look at the build anyway.
In wings of liberty I did a variation of this build that got 3 fast stalkers and a fast robo for map control, however stalkers are very mineral heavy and limit the money spent on powering econ. The whole point of my build is to be very army minimal in the early game so that I can power economy as much as possible. Assuming they do not opt for widow mine drops I'm powering my economy as much as possible while also staying safe from EVERYTHING while also being able to SCOUT and REACT to anything. this build is a jack of all trades.
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Going for an early forge + 300 minerals worth of cannons is actually more expensive early on. You most likely do not cut probes with your build, but I can assure you 3 stalkers total at 6:30 requires NO probe cut either until you have 16 probes on minerals in each base. In fact, you spend a chrono on your gateway while I spend none. I can see how a second and third stalker delay a player's double forge timing, but that's tech, not economy (not to mention double forge with anything but a single stalker + MSC is pretty greedy, even though it is totally safe against 10 minute medivac timings). Skipping stalkers wouldn't make the build I mentioned more economical at all, just more tech oriented.
I'll take a look at this build later. I don't think I'll get such an early forge instead of my dearly beloved stalkers, but I may be able to get some ideas or at least see how it works compared to how I play.
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Thanks for the interesting guide!
I'm quite new to protoss so this question may be silly, but when do you get first gas?
I noticed "22 gas (second)" but can't find where you do the first one. (Perhaps this is so standard most protoss players already know?)
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vhapter (and whomever else), if you want to post the build order you use in PvT, I'll run both build orders and make a comparison between what units you have at various points in time sometime next weekend.
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On April 30 2013 08:34 iSTime wrote:
vhapter (and whomever else), if you want to post the build order you use in PvT, I'll run both build orders and make a comparison between what units you have at various points in time sometime next weekend.
Sure man. I'll see if I can post it as soon as I have enough time.
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Just did this build a couple times, its pretty damn good against all this funky drop play terrans do, that cannon is really useful. One small variation i did was instead of getting a 3rd sentry I got +1 armor started very quickly and got a zealot instead. I find that I don't need as many sentries because of the mothership core.
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Deffinitely gonna try this opening cuz with my actual one i am always only 3 /4 workers ahead, not enough !.
thx for posting.
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On April 30 2013 08:34 iSTime wrote:
vhapter (and whomever else), if you want to post the build order you use in PvT, I'll run both build orders and make a comparison between what units you have at various points in time sometime next weekend.
Ill be sure to post mine as well :D
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Thanks for the guide. I have a question.
Why do you get a second Gate? Do you really need a 4th Sentry? I don't think its been standard to get 4 Sentries in PvT for quite some time now. You could add the Robo instead of the 4th Sentry and 2nd Gate early, and then just get 2 gates later.
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Since i play your style, I won every pvt #lolloveyou
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A cool thing of having a forge early is that you can start +1 armor somewhat soon, than +1 attack and forge+TC when +1 is at 50% and have 2-2 going ony slightly later than the typical double forge opening. You can cancel the upgrades and get stalker or cannon if early pressure is coming.
You end up with the same infrastructure as the double forge build against the 10-10:30 bio timing if Terran didn't harass, but you have the possibility of earlier cannons. Pretty cool build.
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Great guide,
I like how you explain the build, Im eager to try it. I have a question. What do you do against the other races? Do you have a "be the leaf" build when playing against P or Z?
Thanks!
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EPT
